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Author: eaglehaslanded Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 30311  
Subject: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/24/2012 1:47 PM
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Eating for Health, Not Weight

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/opinion/sunday/the-optimal...

Basically, low GI, low GL, fish better than beef/butter. A little too much beans, brown pasta, and fruit are bad for my blood-sugar, but not terrible. They can spike carb cravings, though.

People are drawn to Atkins-type diets in part because, as the study showed, they produce a higher metabolic rate. But a low-carb diet increases metabolic rate because it’s stressful to your body. Just because something increases your metabolic rate doesn’t mean it’s good for you. Amphetamines will also increase your metabolism and burn calories faster, which is why they are used to help people lose weight, at least temporarily. But they stress your body and may mortgage your health in the progress.

Patients on an Atkins diet in this study showed more than double the level of CRP (C-reactive protein), which is a measure of chronic inflammation and also significantly higher levels of cortisol, a key stress hormone. Both of these increase the risk of heart disease and other chronic diseases. A major research article published recently in the British Medical Journal studied 43,396 Swedish women over 16 years. It concluded that “low carbohydrate-high protein diets ... are associated with increased risk of cardiovascular diseases.” An important article in The New England Journal of Medicine examined data from a study showing that high-protein, low-carb diets promote coronary artery disease even if they don’t increase traditional cardiac risk factors like blood pressure or cholesterol levels. A diet low in fat and high in unrefined carbohydrates caused the least amount of coronary artery blockages, whereas an Atkins-type diet caused the most.



TLDR: Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.
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Author: NailThatJello Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29880 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/24/2012 4:23 PM
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I might take Dean Ornish more seriously if he didn't keep summarizing Atkins as all about eating cheeseburgers and bacon. If he's really confident about his evidence, why would he have to lie about the other side?

Eating for Health, Not Weight

Pssst, Dean: there is a connection between the two.

Beans? Whole grains? Fat but healthy? Yuck.

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Author: ilmostro Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29881 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/24/2012 5:24 PM
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It concluded that “low carbohydrate-high protein diets ... are associated with increased risk of cardiovascular diseases.”

The Atkins diet isn't a high protein diet at all. It is a high fat diet.
Hard to believe any of his conclusions when he doesn't even understand that fact.

Bryan

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29882 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/24/2012 7:23 PM
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The Atkins diet isn't a high protein diet at all. It is a high fat diet.

??? Doesn't have to be, and certainly not the way I approach it. Lots of low glycemic veggies and some fruit, mostly fish and chicken, lots of soup. Cheese from time to time, particularly in my dishes, but in moderation. I probably eat more veggies than anything.

IP

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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29883 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/24/2012 7:57 PM
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The Atkins diet isn't a high protein diet at all. It is a high fat diet.

??? Doesn't have to be, and certainly not the way I approach it. Lots of low glycemic veggies and some fruit, mostly fish and chicken, lots of soup. Cheese from time to time, particularly in my dishes, but in moderation. I probably eat more veggies than anything.

IP


I am practically an Atkins Low-carb vegetarian Monday-Friday (lots of egg whites and an occasional whole egg or two to round it out)and just eat meat on weekends. Low fat, low carb, and low calories without ever counting

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Author: ilmostro Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29884 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/24/2012 8:56 PM
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It isn't a high protein diet.
Ornish should be ashamed of himself for classifying it as such.
Bryan

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Author: ilmostro Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29885 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/24/2012 9:29 PM
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Low fat, low carb,

By definition that would mean a high protein diet.
Bryan

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29886 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/25/2012 7:28 AM
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Low fat, low carb,

By definition that would mean a high protein diet.
Bryan


Well there you go then. Epiphany. The problem comes from considering a "high protein diet" a bad thing, not in labeling it as such.

If I had to label my approach it would be Low Glycemic Mediterranean Diet. Or Yummy!

IP

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Author: eaglehaslanded Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29887 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/25/2012 11:12 AM
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Low fat, low carb,

By definition that would mean a high protein diet.
Bryan


By definition? What if you just eat celery?

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29888 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/25/2012 1:40 PM
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Low fat, low carb,

By definition that would mean a high protein diet.
Bryan

By definition? What if you just eat celery?


That would be low intelligence.

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Author: NailThatJello Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29889 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/25/2012 2:48 PM
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By definition? What if you just eat celery?

That would be low intelligence.

Tongue in cheek response, no doubt, but eaglehaslanded has a good point.

Atkins is fully bullish on indigestible carbs. I eat big green leafy salads plus same amount of meat as I did in the carby days plus more fat. Result is not a high protein diet.

Its another thing that Dean Ornish willfully ignores. The distinction between digestible vs indigestible carbs in Atkins. To Atkins, the distinction was night vs day. To Ornish, that's a detail about Atkins not worth mentioning. But, of course when talking about his own diet, Ornish makes the distinction as if it were his own baby.

He's jello.

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29890 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/25/2012 4:04 PM
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Tongue in cheek response, no doubt, but eaglehaslanded has a good point.

Not when he continues to try to fix a label on this way of eating. Bottom line is choices matter. So does individual metabolism. What works for one may very well not work for another. There is no magic potion here, only guidelines, and even Atkins advocates playing around with the level of carbs until you find what works best FOR YOU.

IP
not interested in the labeling aka name calling from either end

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Author: NailThatJello Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29892 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/25/2012 4:42 PM
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What works for one may very well not work for another.

I'm sure there are individual modifiers, such as inherent metabolic rate, current state of insulin resistance, and probably others nobody knows yet. But it seems to me that low carb has struck something so fundamental in metabolism - insulin dynamics - that it can help almost anyone. Some quicker than others, others more than still others...

But I suspect it could work for the vast majority, simply because at the biochemical level, we are all pretty much the same. We're relative newcomers on the evolutionary tree, our metabolism was laid down long before us.

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29893 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/25/2012 4:52 PM
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I'm sure there are individual modifiers, such as inherent metabolic rate, current state of insulin resistance, and probably others nobody knows yet. But it seems to me that low carb has struck something so fundamental in metabolism - insulin dynamics - that it can help almost anyone. Some quicker than others, others more than still others...

When the guidelines are individually tailored, yes.

There are studies I came across where long term very low carbing can lead to too low serotonin levels and increasing carb cravings no matter how low you get. Lower is not automatically better. Don't have a link towards them, but when I started developing extreme carb cravings with the WOE I experimented with raising my carbs. I also had to supplement with 5-HTP which is a serotonin precursor.

As I said, choice matters. Any blanket decree that this group of nutrients is all good or that one is all bad is foolishness.

IP,
feeling better in numerous ways since increasing my carbs, albeit slightly, and monitoring my fat

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Author: ilmostro Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29894 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/25/2012 5:19 PM
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By definition? What if you just eat celery?

Celery is 73% carb, 10% fat, and 17% protein. So a diet with nothing but celery would be a high carb diet.

There are only 3 macronutrients and when someone says they are low carb and low fat it must mean a high protein diet. IMO.

Bryan

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Author: ilmostro Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29895 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/25/2012 5:35 PM
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As I said, choice matters. Any blanket decree that this group of nutrients is all good or that one is all bad is foolishness.

I agree that there is no 1 perfect diet for everyone.
What satiates me and allows me to maintain or lose weight isn't what will satiate someone else.

I do best on a high fat diet. I am talking >65% of calories coming from fat. But I don't expect others to do as well on my diet. It what works for me.

vegans are the worst offenders of insisting their way is the best way for everyone. It works for them. Great. But stop insisting it will work equally well for everyone.

The best explanation of satiety I have read is
http://www.gnolls.org/2304/why-are-we-hungry-part-1-what-is-...

Bryan

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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29896 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/25/2012 6:42 PM
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Celery is 73% carb, 10% fat, and 17% protein. So a diet with nothing but celery would be a high carb diet.

Do you sell statins on the side? This is using percentages when nominal values are more informative. The medical industry resorts to this all the times

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Author: ilmostro Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29897 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/25/2012 6:47 PM
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Do you sell statins on the side? This is using percentages when nominal values are more informative. The medical industry resorts to this all the times

Funny. A high ##### diet is one in which most of the calories are derived from #####.

Thus if one is low carb and low fat that only leaves one other, protein, and that must be high if the others are low. Pretty simple.

Bryan

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29898 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/25/2012 10:08 PM
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vegans are the worst offenders of insisting their way is the best way for everyone. It works for them.

Heh. Tried that for two years, and they were the most miserable longest two years of my life. Sure tried hard to make it work and felt lousy on that WOE. Went right into low carb from that. Felt so much better.

IP

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Author: NailThatJello Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29899 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/26/2012 12:17 AM
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There are only 3 macronutrients and when someone says they are low carb and low fat it must mean a high protein diet. IMO.

Depends on your definition of "high" ;)

One could be low carb, low fat, and still eat less than the minimum daily requirement of protein. Until they starved to death, at least. But that to my mind would not be a high protein diet.

Celery is great with cream cheese. One of my favorite side dishes with breakfast.

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Author: NailThatJello Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29900 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/26/2012 12:35 AM
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long term very low carbing can lead to too low serotonin levels and increasing carb cravings... I started developing extreme carb cravings with the WOE

That's interesting. The Atkins theory is that carb cravings go down once one is off the insulin roller coaster. That's what I've experienced too.

I am now eating about 30-50 carbs a day (guesstimate) and can't say its been long term yet - only since mid April. But I find I don't need much willpower to avoid the stuff that I used to crave like cookies, good bread, pizza, chips, baked potatoes. Now I easily pass by that stuff.

I am edging my way into berries and nuts, and the occasional slice of melon, following the Atkins book as I eased up from induction. So far my fat has stayed off. Love it.

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Author: NailThatJello Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29901 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/26/2012 1:36 AM
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More on cravings management: I went through the entire summer without a single scoop of ice cream. Despite being in lots of tourist places with ice cream stands all around, ice cream eaters enjoying mounds of the stuff... formerly one of my dearest addictions. I never imagined I could lay off ice cream, before low carb.

But somebody invents a good sugarless one with no gassy side effects, well, I'm in.

Meanwhile, blending Greek yoghurt or sour cream with a little peanut butter and sweetner has been a good substitute.

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29902 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/26/2012 6:07 AM
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That's interesting. The Atkins theory is that carb cravings go down once one is off the insulin roller coaster. That's what I've experienced too.

I am now eating about 30-50 carbs a day (guesstimate) and can't say its been long term yet -


I've been low carbing for over 10 years now. I was pretty regularly eating under 30 carbs per day, decreasing it significantly to consume fewer and fewer carbs to try to manage the increasing cravings. It was the exact wrong approach to take for me. I had also previously experienced the reduction of carb cravings earlier through carb management, but it is one of those things where long term less is not best.

Since a teen I have had serious insomnia, and my family is a bit of the poster family for low serotonin issues, which were easy to recognize when I read about them, so YMMV. It is no doubt one of the reasons why I (and several others in my family) are addicted to carbs. Feel pretty fab now with my low glycemic Mediterranean diet approach.

The exact same approach won't work for everyone. Very subtle body chemistry differences can impact individuals significantly. You need to make your diet work for you, not beat yourself up because whatever approach you are trying isn't working. Take the advice, try it, and then listen to your body.

IP



IP

IP

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Author: ilmostro Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29904 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/26/2012 5:33 PM
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Depends on your definition of "high" ;)

One could be low carb, low fat, and still eat less than the minimum daily requirement of protein. Until they starved to death, at least. But that to my mind would not be a high protein diet.


We are talking about 2 different things. Enter your diet information into www.nutritiondata.com and it will come back saying your diet is xx% fat xx% carb and XX % protein.
It bases those percentages on the calories of each macronutrient. So say I eat 2500 calories a day and my diet is 70% fat it means that 1750 calories are coming from fat.

It has nothing to do with the total amount of calories. It is based on what percentage each macronutrient provides to those calories you consume.

A diet of nothing but celery may be low calorie but it is still considered a high carb diet since the vast majority of the calories consumed are carbs.

Bryan

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Author: NailThatJello Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29905 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/26/2012 5:43 PM
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A diet of nothing but celery may be low calorie but it is still considered a high carb diet since the vast majority of the calories consumed are carbs.

Considered by who? Not by anyone I care to consider following.

First of all, failure to recognize the diff between indigestible carbs vs digestible carbs renders any such definition useless.

Second of all, failure to know the dose rate, that is the grams of digestible carbs, renders such definitions useless.

Would you take a pill based on only the knowledge that 100% of the active ingredient was codeine?

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Author: ilmostro Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 29906 of 30311
Subject: Re: Dr. Dean in NYT Sunday Date: 9/26/2012 6:11 PM
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Considered by who? Not by anyone I care to consider following.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/300304-what-is-the-definit...
"There is no formal definition for a high-fat diet, but diets that are high in fat content typically derive at least 50 percent of total calories from fat nutrients. Based on a 2,000 calorie diet, this is equivalent to at least 111 g of fat. By comparison, the American Academy of Family Physicians, the AAFP, states that the typical American diet gets 35 percent of its calories, or 85 g, from dietary fat."

I am not the only one who defines a high *****diet in that way.
Subtract non digestible carbs before doing your calculation if you wish.
But the math is the same.



Bryan

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