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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 58804  
Subject: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/7/2009 5:28 PM
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http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

Percentage of GDP Spent on Health Care
USA: 17% (15% of population not covered)
Canada: 10: (100% of population covered)

GDP:
USA: $13.84 Trillion
Canada: $1.3 Trillion - In US Dollars

Amount spent on health care
USA: $2.353 Trillion
Canada: $0.13 Trillion

Population
USA: 304,100,000 (Number actually covered by ins. 258,485,000)
Canada: 33,215,000

Amount spent per person
USA: $9,100
Canada: $3,900

Do you see those numbers up there? Not only does Canada spend less than 1/2 per citizen that we do, they have better patient outcomes as well. And 100% of the population has health care, and no one goes bankrupt.

CANADA SPENDS LESS AND GETS MORE FOR IT!!!

We are pure idiots to keep the system we have now.

Where is the money going to come from?
Answer, it's already there and then some. Period, End of story. No more argument.

Until you can come up with a better argument than money, then shut the heck up.

Until you can come up with a better story than we have better health care, shut the heck up.

Why even argue? You so called fiscally conservative right tighty types are arguing to keep a system that costs twice as much as it needs too.

I. Just. Don't. Get. It.

Volucris
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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19247 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/7/2009 5:52 PM
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"CANADA SPENDS LESS AND GETS MORE FOR IT!!!

We are pure idiots to keep the system we have now."

And you are ready to try a different system? Just for the heck of it, even if the new system doesn't work?

Did it ever occur to you that EVERYONE in Canada is in the national health care plan and PAYS?

And that they have a VAT (like national sales tax of at least 15% - and up to 19% depending where you live on everything)??????

And that the government funds lots of things, except emergency helicopters so you die on the way from the ski slopes to the hospital on your 8 hour trip.....by road......

"Where is the money going to come from?"

Higher taxes, of course! But don't ask a dem to tell you...they are clueless!....




"Until you can come up with a better argument than money, then shut the heck up."

You mean rationed health care, drug prices that won't support the research for new drugs, insufficient hospital beds, lack of diagnostic equipment, and the like? As in 'Canada'?

"Until you can come up with a better story than we have better health care, shut the heck up."

Until you come up with a better way to PAY for something else, shut the heck up.......Medicare is already 60 trillion in the red. HOw much more debt do you think the country can stand?



"I. Just. Don't. Get. It."

GEt what? Raising taxes by 200 billion a year to pay for it? A few thousand a year for every family.


t.

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19248 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/7/2009 5:57 PM
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GEt what? Raising taxes by 200 billion a year to pay for it? A few thousand a year for every family.
<i/>

Well, I don't know about Texas, but where I come from, 3,900 is a smaller number than 9,100.

9,100 > 3,900
or
3,900 < 9,100

Does that help?


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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19249 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/7/2009 6:22 PM
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"9,100 > 3,900
or
3,900 < 9,100

Does that help? "

No...because in Canada, you get below the cost of development of drug cost...the USA subsidizes Canada..you get a free ride there...

No...because in Canada, you pay a lot f the costs of college education for docs....and don't count that as 'part of medical care'...but those high VAT pay for it......

No...in Canada, you don't have same level of emergency evacuation..and don't count that lack in your costs...

and you ration care..no doubt about it...too old for hip replacement? Sorry...no new hip.......or 18 month wait...likely dead by then...


t.

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Author: TeraGram Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19250 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/7/2009 6:24 PM
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Dear Sir:

I hesitate to post this message, but it is clearly evident that it is necessary.

You would have more cogent arguments typing with your non-dominate hand and pretending that your penis has a brain and is attempting to communicate with you via that hand rather than with the entity with which you are currently arguing.

Helpfully yours,

- T.

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19251 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/7/2009 6:51 PM
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Volucris writes,

Until you can come up with a better story than we have better health care, shut the heck up.

Why even argue? You so called fiscally conservative right tighty types are arguing to keep a system that costs twice as much as it needs too.

I. Just. Don't. Get. It.

</snip>


Medically-speaking, most of the right-wing arguments against healthcare reform seem to tied to a form of adult-onset retardation.

intercst

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19252 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/7/2009 6:56 PM
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Volucris writes, "Until you can come up with a better story than we have better health care, shut the heck up. Why even argue? You so called fiscally conservative right tighty types are arguing to keep a system that costs twice as much as it needs too. I. Just. Don't. Get. It. </snip>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medically-speaking, most of the right-wing arguments against healthcare reform seem to tied to a form of adult-onset retardation. - intercst



Maybe they want to keep their privileged status?

- Art

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19253 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/7/2009 7:07 PM
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ariechert writes,

<<Volucris writes, "Until you can come up with a better story than we have better health care, shut the heck up. Why even argue? You so called fiscally conservative right tighty types are arguing to keep a system that costs twice as much as it needs too. I. Just. Don't. Get. It. </snip>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medically-speaking, most of the right-wing arguments against healthcare reform seem to tied to a form of adult-onset retardation. - intercst>>


Maybe they want to keep their privileged status?

</snip>


That's true but the right-wing isn't saying that.

If we really got the gov't out of healthcare and let private insurance companies do what they want, only the wealthiest 10% of the country would be able to afford insurance and they'd only be able to actually buy it if they were completely healthy.

intercst

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Author: MrCheeryO Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19255 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/7/2009 7:44 PM
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...And that they have a VAT (like national sales tax of at least 15% - and up to 19% depending where you live on everything)??????...

Canadian Goods and Service Tax (GST) now = 5% on most but not all goods.

May the rest of the great debate be slightly more grounded in some reality. although the forces of misinformation are just getting cranked up.

Now I take my leave. :)

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19256 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/7/2009 8:28 PM
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Interesting article - book review- in the latest Economist.....

About Peter Peterson's book - The Education of an American dreamer.


One quick quote: 'Mr Peterson is a cruiser for noble cause. He has committed the bulk of his immense fortune to nagging Americans to take their fiscal problems seriously. The huge budget deficit is only the tip of the iceberg, he warns, on others, through his think tank and in a surprisingly watchable documentary. The federal government has liabilities equivalent to $483,000 per American household, largely in the form of unfunded commitments to provide old people with health care and pensions. Politicians are too scared by looming elections to do anything about it....... He recalls his shock when bill Clinton sat down with him, agreed that social security was bankrupt, and then sottd up and told a crowd of voters that it was just fine."

In case you are a yougin, Peterson was the commerce secetary under Nixon. (his father arrived in American in 1912 with only a primary eduction and no English. Mr Peterson grew up counting out change in the family diner in Nebraska.



SO let's see...Medicare is broke...60 trillion unfunded..and the libs are foaming at the mouth to run up another 60 trillion, because there is no political way to pay for all the health care for 47 million uninsured, who won't be paying their own way. (illegals, or low income folks) plus the current plan is to subsidize folks up to $110,000 income!......wow.....more trillions....tens of trillions...hundreds of trillions.

Money fairy, where are you????paging the money fairy......paging the money fairy!....


t

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19257 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/7/2009 10:18 PM
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Heh, heh! Another debate declared closed by liberals! I guess this goes right along with AlGore declaring debate over global warming closed as well.


So CONVENIENT!

What's the next area of political controversy my liberal friends want to declare closed?



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19258 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/7/2009 11:03 PM
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It must be pretty bad for the libruls if 50% of the threads are greyed out.

You would begin to wonder if they had a clue on anything. On any subject, if they didn't like the comments, they'd just grey them out.

Sounds like they have skin so thin that grains of sand would cause fatal injuries.

Either that, or positions so weak they can't stand an ounce of scrutiny.

t

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19263 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 12:02 AM
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anyone who would change someone else's post, then sign it the way they do.....

Must not have a moral scruple in their being.

You just showed your true colors to the whole board.

t.

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19265 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 12:12 AM
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This is bizarre. It's like people can't do math.

OK, follow along.

The US now spends $2.353 Trillion on health care.
If we adopted the Canadian System, it would be $1.186 Trillion

Saving the US $1.167 Trillion and we would have every single person in the US covered.

It costs less! As in the opposite of more!

Why is that so hard to understand?

How much is that Medicare shortfall?

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19266 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 1:08 AM
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Volucris writesw,

This is bizarre. It's like people can't do math.

OK, follow along.

The US now spends $2.353 Trillion on health care.
If we adopted the Canadian System, it would be $1.186 Trillion

Saving the US $1.167 Trillion and we would have every single person in the US covered.

It costs less! As in the opposite of more!

Why is that so hard to understand?


</snip>


I wonder if RPI can recall tele's degree.

intercst

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19269 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 5:54 AM
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"Why is that so hard to understand?

How much is that Medicare shortfall? "

50 trillion.

It's easy to promise everyone everything. It's hard to deliver.

Obviously, Canadians have rationed health care. What you can get, when you can get it, if you can get it at all. They leech off the US drug development. If they paid their fair share, their costs would be 50% higher or more for drugs.

everyone points to EU, but they don't realize that the French system pays 70%, repeat 70% of your bills. Then you need to buy more insurance (after paying 7.5% of your paycheck for the national plan) to cover the difference...or pay it out of your pocket. And no, they don't pay...you pay, then you get 70% of what you paid back. And if you have private insurance, you might get the rest back - unless you had a private doc or hospital room, where you have to pay even more. Hmmm......Plus they have 19% VAT on everything you buy.

Now, how much again is that Canadian VAT? 15-19% depending upon which provence. Oh, right..that isn't 'medical cost'..... just the cost to educate doctors, etc....

t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19270 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 5:58 AM
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intercst: "I wonder if RPI can recall tele's degree."

I wonder when intercst will realize that if folks make and spend $50K in Canada, everything they buy has a 15-19% tax.

Somehow, my math says that 19% tax on $50K income means you pay $9000 in VAT taxes a year.

And that is 'cheaper'? That is on top of income tax levels the same in both Canada and France.

So, if intercst lived in Canada, spent, say $70,000 a year, he'd have the 'privilege' of giving the Canadaian government nearly $14,000 to educate those doctors who provide 'cheaper' health care.

I wonder if his degree would be in the same jeopardy?

No wonder there are so many renters in EU....buying a house with a 15-19% VAT on top of the high house prices has got to really hurt!....and once you have one, you sure don't want to have to move to accept a better job in another city!

Maybe that is why EU unemployment usually runs double the USA?



t.

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Author: HarryHope Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19273 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 9:33 AM
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As has been pointed out for Canada ad nauseam the same goes for France. It's much less expensive and it's better. What is it about this that is so hard for you to grasp?

Since you can't figure that out, I see no reason to try and explain how wrong you are about French housing and unemployment.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19274 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 9:37 AM
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<<Since you can't figure that out, I see no reason to try and explain how wrong you are about French housing and unemployment.
>>


Well, French Muslims SEEMED unhappy about French housing and unemployement, seeing that they were rioting and burning cars and such not long ago. But I suppose that was just Fox news reporting falsehoods.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19275 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 9:56 AM
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"As has been pointed out for Canada ad nauseam the same goes for France. It's much less expensive and it's better. What is it about this that is so hard for you to grasp?"

You only think it is 'better' since the cost to educate doctors is paid for by the VERY HIGH VAT taxes, which you get to pay on everything. Like 19% tax on meals eaten out, your new car purchase, your TV purchase, and of course, your groceries!

Everything you consume is taxed. Haircut? 19% VAT. Everything.

So if you make and spend $60,000 a year, you get to pay over $10,000 in VAT taxes each year.

THen, in France you pay 7.5% of your income for 'health fee', and that pays, get this.....70% of your medical bill.

Not only that, in France, you visit the doctor, YOU PAY. Then, you submit the request for re-imbursement, and the government sends you back 70% of what you already paid! If you want insurance to cover most of the rest of what you had to pay, then you buy that insurance for hundreds a month.

Free healthcare? Ha....biggest joke going. YOu already paid $10,000 in VAT taxes.....and you pay 30% of your medical bills, unless you have extra cost insurance which you also pay for!

Now tell me again about how great that is?

That VAT pays to educate a limited number of doctors (can't have too many) through medical school. (as well as 'free' university education to most students - about 1/3rd of which can't even find a job when they graduate with their lib arts degrees).

So, they vacuum the money out of your wallet with consumption taxes.....

and you think that is so great?

wow...

t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19277 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 10:01 AM
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All the French are so happy!


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article29...

"N retrospect, it was not a good idea to have left his pistol at home. Called to the scene of a traffic accident in the Paris suburbs last Sunday, Jean-François Illy, a regional police chief, came face to face with a mob of immigrant youths armed with baseball bats, iron bars and shotguns. "

"His bruised and bloodied face signalled a worrying new level of barbarity in the mainly Muslim banlieues, where organised gangs of rioters used guns against police in a two-day rampage of looting and burning last week. "

"Altogether 130 policemen were injured, dozens by shotgun pellets and shells packed with nails that were fired from a homemade bazooka. It prompted talk of urban “guerrilla warfare” being waged on French streets against the forces of law and order. "

"Rioting two years ago was widely regarded as a protest against poor housing, racial discrimination and unemployment of up to 40% in the grim housing estates surrounding most big French cities. "

With all that 'free' (joke) health care, you mean the people aren't happy? and content?

t.

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19278 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 10:21 AM
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Tax rates as a percentage of GDP
US: 28%
Canada: 33%

Debt as a percentage of GDP
US - 65%
Canada - 28%

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3924

Our taxes are high - we're just not paying them - yet.

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Author: HoracePuckey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19280 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 10:39 AM
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Hary: As has been pointed out for Canada ad nauseam the same goes for France. It's much less expensive and it's better. What is it about this that is so hard for you to grasp?

You see, Harry, a closed mind gathers no facts.

Horace

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Author: jwiest Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19281 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 10:46 AM
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So CONVENIENT!

Yeah, 2 + 2 = 4 is so "convenient".

What's the next area of political controversy my liberal friends want to declare closed?

I dunno, is 3 + 3 = 6 a "political controversy"?

It's seriously depressing to watch you guys flounder around trying to bend reality to fit your emotions.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19283 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 11:11 AM
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You see, Harry, a closed mind gathers no facts. - Horace


It's called "confirmation bias". Fundamentalist Christians do it in regards to the interpretation of the Bible, and people who are very politically oriented do it in regards to facts about whatever politcal bent they identify with.

My sister and her daughter are very liberal and totally in LOVE with Obama. They are both extremely environmentally conscious and believe global warming to be a FACT that is indisputable. Whenever I show them an article that conflicts in any way with their all ready made up minds about global warming they don't even bother to read it. Why should they when they KNOW that global warming is scientifically proven fact?

I encounter the same bias from materialist skeptics when talking about near death experiences, death bed visions, and the holographic nature of the universe. They have made up their minds how the universe works and any other theory can't be true because they have decided that life after death can't be true - because, well, it just can't!

Art

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Author: SpeedBump13 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19284 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 1:08 PM
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You so called fiscally conservative right tighty types are arguing to keep a system that costs twice as much as it needs too.

I. Just. Don't. Get. It.


The people fighting tooth and nail against this HAVE good healthcare and most of the money. The system is more fair in Canada, but they don't give a whit about fairness. They would rather pay more than have everyone enjoy what they have.

-Wes

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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19285 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 1:12 PM
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The people fighting tooth and nail against this HAVE good healthcare and most of the money. The system is more fair in Canada, but they don't give a whit about fairness. They would rather pay more than have everyone enjoy what they have.

-Wes


Yes. Any discussion about something costing too much always depends on who's getting the money

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Author: foolinchicago Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19287 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 1:53 PM
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They are both extremely environmentally conscious and believe global warming to be a FACT that is indisputable.

I didn't realize that there were people who still disputed global warming. I mean, here in Chicago, especially lately, there doesn't seem to be any warming and we make jokes about that. I honestly didn't realize the fact that there is global warming was still being debated. Hmmm...

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Author: TaoFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19288 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 2:02 PM
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So if you make and spend $60,000 a year, you get to pay over $10,000 in VAT taxes each year.


That's still $2K less than the more or less typical $12K med insurance premium. (Whether you, your employer pay it of split it 50/50 is irrelevant to this discussion.) And it doesn't take into account out-of-pocket deductables.

I see you're sticking with the 15-19% VAT. Someone else said it was 5%. Which is it?

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19289 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 2:23 PM
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I see you're sticking with the 15-19% VAT. Someone else said it was 5%. Which is it?

Canadian VAT is 5%. Then there are provincial sales taxes on top of that.

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Author: PosFCF Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19291 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 2:31 PM
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I wonder when intercst will realize that if folks make and spend $50K in Canada, everything they buy has a 15-19% tax.

Somehow, my math says that 19% tax on $50K income means you pay $9000 in VAT taxes a year.

And that is 'cheaper'? That is on top of income tax levels the same in both Canada and France.


My wife and I pay $25,000 per year for health insurance and deductibles. Tell me again how Canada is more expensive.

Maybe that is why EU unemployment usually runs double the USA?

Or maybe they count their unemployed differently? Have you looked at our U-6 numbers?

Poz

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19292 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 2:40 PM
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I didn't realize that there were people who still disputed global warming. I mean, here in Chicago, especially lately, there doesn't seem to be any warming and we make jokes about that. I honestly didn't realize the fact that there is global warming was still being debated. Hmmm... foolinchicago


LOL! Surely you jest? If you want to read a plethora of posts from people who disagree with global warming go visit the Retire Early Campfire board. http://boards.fool.com/Messages.asp?bid=112992

My problem is that I just don't care all that much. Well I do care, in that I have really been enjoying the milder winters and lack of snow that we have had in Tennessee the last few years.

I don't have children and I'm rather selfish and I like it warm and would rather live in Florida than in Tennessee where I am stuck so the idea of it being warm enough in Tennessee to grow mangoes and citrus fruit sounds very enticing to me. Tennessee has very cold wet winters; the kind of cold that sinks right to your bones, and all the leaves fall off the trees and everything is wet, cold, and slimey so to be honest I'm not entirely against global warming.

I kind of like the idea of turning back to climate to what it was like when dinosaurs roamed the earth with warm tropical weather worldwide. Sounds pretty good to me? And yes, I'm serious.

Art

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19295 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 2:49 PM
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"That's still $2K less than the more or less typical $12K med insurance premium. (Whether you, your employer pay it of split it 50/50 is irrelevant to this discussion.) And it doesn't take into account out-of-pocket deductables."

In Canada and France it ranges from 15-19%.

And, of course, in France there is a 7.5% out of your paycheck for the national health care system.

And in Canada, you pay a monthly fee, too, to the national health care system out of your paycheck, and if unemployed, out of your unemployment check...and if none, out of your pocket - otherwise, you don't get service. No tickee - no service - got to have that insurance card.

You forgot to mention again that the French system only pays you AFTER you have paid the doc, and only gives you 70% back. If you want more back, you pay hundreds more (a month) for your own private insurance plan on top of VAT, the 7.5% tax on your pay.......

Got it?


t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19296 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 3:04 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax



"Goods and Service Tax (GST) is a Value Added Tax introduced in 1991 at a rate of 7%. The rate is currently 5% and is imposed in addition to provincial sales taxes, except in Alberta, where there is no provincial sales tax; and in New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, where a Harmonized Sales Tax (5% GST + 8% PST = 13% HST) (combined GST and provincial sales tax) is collected."


Sock it to 'em...

Now, what the libs don't tell you

"About 30% of Canadians' health care is paid for through the private sector. This mostly goes towards services not covered or only partially covered by Medicare, such as prescription drugs, dentistry and optometry. Some 65% of Canadians have some form of supplementary private health insurance; many of them receive it through their employers.[14] There are also large private entities that can buy priority access to medical services in Canada, such as WCB in BC."

Whoa.....that means you need to have your own insurance on top of the wonderful canadian system??? of course...of course.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

How can this be?

"The various levels of government pay for about 70% of Canadians' health care, although this number has decreased somewhat in recent years."

You mean Canadians have to fork over 30% of their healthcare costs? Oh, golly, where is intercst when you need him? HOw many Canadians are going bankrupt? 30%!....

Oh, how can this be?

"One of the major complaints about the Canadian health care system is waiting times, whether for a specialist, major elective surgery, such as hip replacement, imaging procedures such as MRI or Cystoscopy, or specialized treatments, such as radiation for breast cancer. Studies by the Commonwealth Fund found that 57% of Canadians reported waiting 4 weeks or more to see a specialist; 24% of Canadians waited 4 hours or more in the emergency room."

"A March 2, 2004, article in the Canadian Medical Association Journal stated, "Saskatchewan is under fire for having the longest waiting time in the country for a diagnostic MRI—a whopping 22 month"

Wow...two years to get a single MRI..you could be easily dead by then!

"This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years."[

that really says it all!!!!!!!


"Canada's shortage of medical practitioners causes problems.[35] With 2.1 doctors per thousand population in 2006, Canada is well below the OECD average of 3.1"

Well, what did you expect with rationed health care?

t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19297 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 3:07 PM
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POZ:"My wife and I pay $25,000 per year for health insurance and deductibles. Tell me again how Canada is more expensive."

I pay $3600/yr for $2000 deductible Blue Cross of TX policy...and average about $4500 a year in expenses including the insurance.

I don't pay big VAT taxes or sales taxes on everything I buy......

I don't pay a 7.5% fee on my income to fund the gov't plan that pays only 70% of the medical costs anyway. ANd you would need private insurance.

You do realize that both you and your wife would each pay the 7.5% of income fee...plus the VAT and high taxes.....and only get 70% back from the gov't? and have to buy private insurance to 'fill the gap' of the other 30%?

Maybe you need to move to a cheaper state?


t.

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19298 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 3:07 PM
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You forgot to mention again that the French system only pays you AFTER you have paid the doc, and only gives you 70% back. If you want more back, you pay hundreds more (a month) for your own private insurance plan on top of VAT, the 7.5% tax on your pay.......<i/>

I could have sworn we were talking about Canada, and here we are blathering about France. Odd, that.

Here's a big ol' cup of French Health Care facts for you . . .
http://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/93/1/31.pdf


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Author: HoracePuckey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19300 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 3:10 PM
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I didn't realize that there were people who still disputed global warming. I mean, here in Chicago, especially lately, there doesn't seem to be any warming and we make jokes about that. I honestly didn't realize the fact that there is global warming was still being debated. Hmmm... foolinchicago

LOL! Surely you jest? If you want to read a plethora of posts from people who disagree with global warming go visit the Retire Early Campfire board. http://boards.fool.com/Messages.asp?bid=112992

Or check in here
http://boards.fool.com/Messages.asp?mid=27732009&bid=117...
for a bunch more. They claim thry aern't deniers, merely skeptics.

Horace

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19301 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 3:13 PM
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Canadian Health Care:

Once again, a big cup of facts:

http://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/93/1/20.pdf

Canada pays much less as a percentage of GDP than the US. Period.
100% of Canadians are covered. Period.

No amount of conservative drivel changes that.

Period.

Volucris

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Author: HoracePuckey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19302 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 3:18 PM
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Canada pays much less as a percentage of GDP than the US. Period.
100% of Canadians are covered. Period.

No amount of conservative drivel changes that.

Period.

Volucris

At least one poster here isn't interested in facts. He is only here to tweak the libs' noses. He doesn't care one bit about the facts. Just wants to get under our skin. He seems to succeed.

Horace

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19303 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 3:20 PM
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Once again, a big cup of facts to disprove the libs lie.




You state: "100% of Canadians are covered. Period."

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/174/9/1253




"In Canada, immigrants are admitted for their professional expertise and anticipated contribution to the workforce. In 2004 we admitted 204 000 landed immigrants and 31 000 refugees. Physicians in this country may be surprised to know that, despite Canada's universal health care system, many who reside here legally are never granted public health insurance."

You be wrong! Did you catch that NEVER part?????

http://www.arts.yorku.ca/soci/goldring/clippings/caring_for_...

"iceberg. He suspects
Ontario alone could have at least 50,000 uninsured immigrants and refugees. That is
based on a 1999 report that approximately 2%, or roughly 200,000, of the province's 10
million residents use community health clinics. Of that 200,000, 26%, about 50,000, lack
health insurance for whatever reason, according to that report."

Univeral? Hardly.

If we sent back the 20 million illegals here, half our problem with uninsured would disappear!





t.

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Author: HoracePuckey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19304 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 3:24 PM
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Speaking of health care

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20090608/cx_crwiz_...

Horace

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19305 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 3:38 PM
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He doesn't care one bit about the facts. Just wants to get under our skin. He seems to succeed.


Not really. I think the reverse is far more likely.

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Author: 2001Cobra Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19306 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 3:53 PM
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I usually stay out of these types of debates.

I find that in these types of politically charged issues no amount of rationale discussion or facts ever seems to change anyone's mind.

I also want to disclose that I am in the military and get 'free healthcare' so I don't have a dogmatic opinion either way. But, here are my thoughts...

1.) You can throw around as many figures as you want comparing cost of heathcare between the US and Canada but the fact of the matter is you get what you pay for. Universal Healthcare is rationed health care. PERIOD. You have two choices...

A.) Not everyone is covered and the more you make the better your access to care, physicians, ect
B.) Everyone is covered and everyone gets the same subpar care. Granted, the rich can still get better healthcare with private pay.

2.) This brings me to me second point. Being in the military I have had firsthand experience (I am in the medical field) with the NHS system in England. It is frankly horrible. Rationed heathcare is not pretty. And it takes months sometimes just to see a provider. It's crazy...

The point of this post is just to say there are negatives to both sides of the issue. I certainly want everyone to be able to have healthcare but at the same time do not want my quality of my healthcare diminished. I know some of you refuse to believe that healthcare would be diminished, but it would.

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Author: HoracePuckey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19307 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 4:17 PM
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This brings me to me second point. Being in the military I have had firsthand experience (I am in the medical field) with the NHS system in England. It is frankly horrible. Rationed heathcare is not pretty. And it takes months sometimes just to see a provider. It's crazy...

Just a word about health care in the military. When I was in the army, my wife was subject to very painful menstrual cramps, every month. The MD's diagnosed endometriosis. Gave her some pills.

Some years later, I was a civilian. She ran out of the pain pills and went to a civilian MD. He said, "Either you are pregnant, or you have a tumor the size of a grapefruit." They removed the tumor, and her problem went away (period and all). I feel the military wasn't set up tp worry about a female civilian with period issues. Grit your teeth. Suck it up.

Horace

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19308 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 4:32 PM
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<<I usually stay out of these types of debates.

I find that in these types of politically charged issues no amount of rationale discussion or facts ever seems to change anyone's mind.
>>


True. I never expect my posts to change anyone's mind. It's a (hopefully) friendly discussion.


And I'll again suggest that the main reason political debate doesn't change minds is that competing political views are usually about competing VALUES, not disagreements over facts. If it were just facts that were at issue, resolving them would not usually be all that difficult.

But when you are talking about conflicting values, these are often quite persistant. It's usually a lot more difficult to convince people to change their values than that a few facts are wrong.


<<2.) This brings me to me second point. Being in the military I have had firsthand experience (I am in the medical field) with the NHS system in England. It is frankly horrible. Rationed heathcare is not pretty. And it takes months sometimes just to see a provider. It's crazy...

The point of this post is just to say there are negatives to both sides of the issue. I certainly want everyone to be able to have healthcare but at the same time do not want my quality of my healthcare diminished. I know some of you refuse to believe that healthcare would be diminished, but it would.
>>


I agree with that. In my view the honest national healthcare debate would recognize that the middle class would experience a significant decline in the quality of healthcare and significant increases in costs and taxes to pay for it, in exchange for spreading access to more people.

To me, that is common sense. However, my liberal friends usually like to suggest that national healthcare will cost no more, and often say it would cost less, and that quality would not decline.

In effect, they are saying you get to cover everyone for FREE! That's a good political argument if you can get people to buy into it.

Hillarycare failed because the middle class did NOT buy that argument, and accepted the idea that they would pay more and get less.


That's the political battleground, in my view.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19309 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 4:36 PM
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<<Some years later, I was a civilian. She ran out of the pain pills and went to a civilian MD. He said, "Either you are pregnant, or you have a tumor the size of a grapefruit." They removed the tumor, and her problem went away (period and all). I feel the military wasn't set up tp worry about a female civilian with period issues. Grit your teeth. Suck it up.

Horace
>>


What does this say about government health care? Is it good for people to have choices and alternatives?

If government political priorities in health care aren't sensitive to your issues, perhaps it's because prioroties are going to the politically sensitive health issues ---- whatever they might be that day --- be it AIDS breast cancer or whatever?

Isn't that the way political systems work?



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19310 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 5:00 PM
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"<<Some years later, I was a civilian. She ran out of the pain pills and went to a civilian MD. He said, "Either you are pregnant, or you have a tumor the size of a grapefruit." They removed the tumor, and her problem went away (period and all). I feel the military wasn't set up tp worry about a female civilian with period issues. Grit your teeth. Suck it up.

Horace
>> "

The VA is always under 'cost control'....... and you don't get the best docs working for the VA....it is the place where docs go when they can't make it in private practice..

If you have a gov't health care 'plan', you'll find the same level of inadequate compentency....for the docs in the government plan. You can't make it on Medicare plus 10% for all your patients. No way. Right now, you have a hard time finding a doc for Medicare if you don't have one established with a large percentage of regular patients.

REmember, in Canada a dog can get a hip replaced in 10 days. For people, it can be up to 3 years because of rationing. You really want that here?


t.

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Author: HoracePuckey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19311 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 5:10 PM
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He doesn't care one bit about the facts. Just wants to get under our skin. He seems to succeed.

Not really. I think the reverse is far more likely.

Really? I think he is having fun.

Horace

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19312 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 5:22 PM
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Really? I think he is having fun.

That's fine. So am I.

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Author: PosFCF Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19316 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 5:59 PM
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I pay $3600/yr for $2000 deductible Blue Cross of TX policy...and average about $4500 a year in expenses including the insurance.


I'm happy for you but that does nothing for me. I have Blue Choice.

We have pre-existing conditions, we will not be able to get insurance if we leave them.

I don't pay a 7.5% fee on my income to fund the gov't plan that pays only 70% of the medical costs anyway. ANd you would need private insurance.

I would gladly pay the 7.5% or the 15% it would come out to either be cheaper or the same cost to me and, if it would have every American covered, I'm all for it.

You do realize that both you and your wife would each pay the 7.5% of income fee...plus the VAT and high taxes.....and only get 70% back from the gov't? and have to buy private insurance to 'fill the gap' of the other 30%?

You do realize that you're creating a pipe dream here right? We have no plan in America so how can you say it would cost this or that? You are picking the most expensive and least covered and using that as the paradigm against which you fight. Instead, why not believe Americans can do much better than anyone else and take the best of all the programs and make it work even better here?

Do I think that a nationalized health insurance plan will be the be all and end all of the issues? No. Do I think the American entrepreneurial spirit will come up with innovative extra insurance plans to cover whatever the main one does not? Sure.

But I also believe we cannot possibly get more inefficient than the system we currently have. So anything else would be an improvement. I don't want to settle for just anything else, I want to move the debate from the idiotic notion that the current system ought to be defended into a debate on how we change it for the better.

Poz

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Author: PosFCF Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19317 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 6:03 PM
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If we sent back the 20 million illegals here, half our problem with uninsured would disappear!

That's not true. The 50 million uninsured in America are either Americans or permanent green card residents. It does not include the illegals.

Poz

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19318 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 6:14 PM
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Libs making up facts again!

Poz claims : "That's not true. The 50 million uninsured in America are either Americans or permanent green card residents. It does not include the illegals."


" Nor does it mention a main cause in the crisis: uninsured illegal immigrants. Such an omission is surprising, given the news just one month earlier, reported in the New York Times and other papers: the Bush administration announced in May that it would send $1 billion to hospitals to pay for the care of illegal immigrants. "The largest allocations this fiscal year," the Times reported, "are going to California, which will receive $70.8 million; Texas, $46 million; Arizona, $45 million; New York, $12.3 million; Illinois, $10.3 million; Florida, $8.7 million; and New Mexico, $5.1 million." And the $70.8 million for California, the newspaper reported, won't come close to covering the cost of the state's $500 million bill for illegal immigrants.

" A subsequent report prepared for the U.S.-Mexico Border Counties Coalition determined that about 25 percent of those nonreimbursed costs resulted from emergency medical treatment provided to undocumented immigrants."

"Reported ABC News, "researchers at the RAND Corporation, a nonpartisan think tank, analyzed data received from about 2,400 people in Los Angeles County in 2000 and 2001, and applied that information to the nation's undocumented population at large. The number of uninsured adults in the United States grew by about 8.7 million between 1980 and 2000. If the trend for Los Angeles County held true for the rest of the country, about a third of that growth can be attributable to illegal immigrants."

About 35 percent of immigrants are uninsured, data show, and 65 percent of illegal immigrants are uninsured. Citing data from Center for Immigration Studies, immigration writer Ed Rubenstein concluded, "Immigrants accounted for more than half--59 percent--of the growth in the uninsured population during the 1992-2001 period. When you include the 3.5-million immigrants enrolled in Medicaid, almost half of all immigrants either are uninsured or have it provided to them at taxpayers' expense."


http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-29406209_I...'

Now, your lib truth suddenly vaporized.........

Facts....not fiction......

t

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19319 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 6:21 PM
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More facts for libs to digest

http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1405.html

"An analysis of Census Bureau data shows that the nation's foreign-born or immigrant population (legal and illegal) reached a new record of more than 35 million in March of 2005. The data also indicate that the first half of this decade has been the highest five-year period of immigration in American history."

"#

The 35.2 million immigrants (legal and illegal) living in the country in March 2005 is the highest number ever recorded -- two and a half times the 13.5 million during the peak of the last great immigration wave in 1910.
#

Between January 2000 and March 2005, 7.9 million new immigrants (legal and illegal) settled in the country, making it the highest five-year period of immigration in American history.
#

Nearly half of post-2000 arrivals (3.7 million) are estimated to be illegal aliens. "

Let's see now....remember 65% of illegals don't have insurance.......

"One-third of immigrants lack health insurance -- two-and-one-half times the rate for natives. "

And the libs keeping telling us the illegals aren't a problem...ha....

and, as to the problems of illegals and care...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150750,00.html

"Overburdened by the uninsured and overwhelmed by illegal immigration (search), public health care in Los Angeles is on life support.

Sixty percent of the county's uninsured patients are not U.S. citizens. More than half are here illegally. About 2 million undocumented aliens in Los Angeles County alone are crowding emergency rooms because they can't afford to see a doctor."

Wow...LA could solve its problems by sending those two million illegals back home.........

Code word 'undocumented'.....meaning 'ILLEGAL'..... 2 million in LA alone....

And you try to tell me that of the 47 million uninsured, none of them are illegals...Ha!....

t.

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Author: tecmo Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19320 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 7:09 PM
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Now, how much again is that Canadian VAT? 15-19% depending upon which provence.

Canadian goods and services tax is 5% at the Federal Level (it was recently reduced from 7%). Provincial sales tax (which isn't on services typically) ranges from 0% in Alberta to 8% in Ontario (the largest province). So the combined tax is 5% in Alberta and 13% in Ontario.

http://www.taxtips.ca/pst/pstrates.htm

Note:
- The federal government issues GST "credits" to low income earners so they don't pay the full load.

- The GST is exempt on a large number of goods; including most basic household items (groceries, etc..)

tecmo
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Author: tecmo Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19321 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 7:19 PM
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I wonder when intercst will realize that if folks make and spend $50K in Canada, everything they buy has a 15-19% tax.

Somehow, my math says that 19% tax on $50K income means you pay $9000 in VAT taxes a year.


I corrected your 15-19% number already; but you need to understand this is not applied to your income. It is a consumption tax; and it doesn't apply to everything.

if you have $50K income you are likely spending 1/3 of that on your mortgage; which is not going to be taxed.

Income: $50K (assume this is after income taxes)
Mortgate: $15K
Food: $7,500 (typically GST exempt)


That leaves $27.5K which would probably be taxes at that rate. In Alberta you would probably pay $1375, in Ontario it would be $3575.

tecmo
...

PS: Don't most states have sales taxes as well?

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Author: TeraGram Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19322 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 7:25 PM
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Tax rates as a percentage of GDP
US: 28%
Canada: 33%

Debt as a percentage of GDP
US - 65%
Canada - 28%

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3924

Our taxes are high - we're just not paying them - yet.


Cripes that makes me wince. I look at my 8 year old daughter and wonder how in blazes her generation is going to muster through the crap we're dishing out right now.

I'm doing what I can do lay a solid foundation for her, though. She's bilterate and I'm currently scoping out instructors for her next language (Mandarin).

I wish I could've gotten her into Mandarin first (it is by far a more difficult language than Spanish or English if for no other reason that you have to learn an entirely different writing system, too) but whachyagonnado!?

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Author: tecmo Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19323 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 7:25 PM
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And in Canada, you pay a monthly fee, too, to the national health care system out of your paycheck, and if unemployed, out of your unemployment check...and if none, out of your pocket - otherwise, you don't get service. No tickee - no service - got to have that insurance card.

This is only partially true. Some provinces certainly have a monthly medical fee that you have to pay (British Columbia is one); I think for a single person its $35 and $70 for a family (per month). But; its income tested; meaning that low income people get it covered; and for most people the employer pays.

So yes you need to have a card to get service; and to get the card you need to be enrolled; but enrollment is not difficult (if you are a resident) or expensive.


tecmo
...

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19324 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 7:37 PM
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tecmo asks,

if you have $50K income you are likely spending 1/3 of that on your mortgage; which is not going to be taxed.

Income: $50K (assume this is after income taxes)
Mortgate: $15K
Food: $7,500 (typically GST exempt)


That leaves $27.5K which would probably be taxes at that rate. In Alberta you would probably pay $1375, in Ontario it would be $3575.

tecmo
...

PS: Don't most states have sales taxes as well?


Here in George Bush's Texas we have a high sales tax (8.25% in Houston), High property taxes (up to 4% of market value in some neighborhoods) and high health insurance premiums with high deductibles and co-pays.

Yet many tea-baggers will tell you it's a model for the country. <LOL>

intercst

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19325 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 10:15 PM
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"I corrected your 15-19% number already; but you need to understand this is not applied to your income. It is a consumption tax; and it doesn't apply to everything."

In France? It gets added to meals,...to hotel rooms....to new cars......France and Germany and most of EU, right? 15-19% in France and Germany, no?


t.

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Author: PosFCF Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19326 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 10:16 PM
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telegraph says:

If we sent back the 20 million illegals here, half our problem with uninsured would disappear!

While he is not clear on what problems he is referring to, the previous comments have been regarding the fact that 50 million Americans are uninsured.

Therefore this is not a discussion about the problems of illegals immigrants swamping the healthcare system, that is a separate debate.

According to the Census Bureau report titled: Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007 http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf

Page 22 Table 6 shows that of 45.657 million people that didn't have health insurance coverage in 2007, under the breakdown heading of "Nativity" that 33.269 million were native born and 12.388 million were foreign born. Of the 12.88 million foreign born 2.658 million were naturalized citizens and 9.737 were "not a citizen".

"Not a citizen" does not mean illegally here. There are a lot of green-card foreign nationals who are permanently or semi-permanently but quite legally. It is these folks who are being referred to by this report.

Nowhere in this study does it address the issue of illegals.

So, when I said your statement was untrue, it was.

If you want to now change the discussion to save face and bring in the illegal aliens and health care crisis, fine, but we both know what you're doing.

Poz

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19327 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 10:21 PM
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"Here in George Bush's Texas we have a high sales tax (8.25% in Houston), High property taxes (up to 4% of market value in some neighborhoods) and high health insurance premiums with high deductibles and co-pays."


Wow...intercst must be smoking some good stuff.

There is no sales tax on food....and its 6% on a car.....and there are sales tax holidays to buy school stuff for all the kids..and of course, if you buy on line, you pay zero sales tax......if you buy from out of state.....

Real estate taxes? Heck, intercst is a renter......and brags about the cheap rents in Houston....what, $525 for a nice two bedroom in a nice complex with pools?

Try MD and MA for high taxes.. Even CA - if you buy now, rather than having bought 30-40 years ago and having your taxes based upon 1960s values......1/4 of what you neighbor pays....ho...talk about getting the shaft....one guy pays $10,000 in tax, the guy next door $2000 for same size house...in CA with prop 13....



"Yet many tea-baggers will tell you it's a model for the country."

I guess it must be good since intercst worked in TX for many years, and his main residence is still in TX...oh, right...it has NO INCOME TAX!....

And my healthcare is less than half of that in Lib Washington State.....

And I'll bet intercsts is lower than SP's health insurance costs....

t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19328 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 10:25 PM
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Poz:"While he is not clear on what problems he is referring to, the previous comments have been regarding the fact that 50 million Americans are uninsured."

the libs count every head as an "American".....and you and I know that of the 300,000,000 that at least 10% are illegals....

Poz"Of the 12.88 million foreign born 2.658 million were naturalized citizens and 9.737 were "not a citizen"."

Yeah, but you conveniently left out about 10 million kids of illegals, who by a freak of the intent of the 14th amendment got citizenship here because their illegal moms popped them out on US territory...... If you send back the parents, you'd send back most of them, too....


t.

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19332 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 11:17 PM
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Despite righty tighty noise on the issue, nothing has changed.

The US now spends $2.353 Trillion on health care.
If we adopted the Canadian System, it would be $1.186 Trillion

Saving the US $1.167 Trillion and we would have every single person in the US covered.

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Author: PosFCF Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19333 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 11:37 PM
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the libs count every head as an "American".....

No, I use actual statistics gotten by a non-partisan agency, The Census Bureau, and use their definitions.

.....and you and I know that of the 300,000,000 that at least 10% are illegals....

I have no idea how many illegals there are, but they are not part of the 50 million I refer to. If you want to include them then at least 80 million people in America don't have health insurance, send the 30 million back and you're still left with 50 million that are either citizens or are here legally that have no health insurance.

Yeah, but you conveniently left out about 10 million kids of illegals,...

You are pretty good at pulling numbers out of .....thin air....but even so, it is not my report, it is the Census Bureau's. If you have a beef with the numbers taken by them, take it up with them.

But arguing with me using your made up numbers to refute their collected data is ridiculous. You have little credibility.

And 50 million Americans are still uninsured for health issues.....plus the illegals you seem so enamored of.

Poz

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Author: HoracePuckey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19334 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 11:41 PM
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You are pretty good at pulling numbers out of .....thin air.

Around these parte, we calls it MUS, stranger.

Horace

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19335 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/8/2009 11:57 PM
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HoracePuckey writes,

You are pretty good at pulling numbers out of .....thin air.

Around these parte, we calls it MUS, stranger.


If you really want to send tele into a tizzy, tell him that we're going to collect all the handguns and auction them off to pay for health care.

intercst

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Author: TeraGram Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19336 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/9/2009 12:05 AM
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If you really want to send tele into a tizzy, tell him that we're going to collect all the handguns and auction them off to pay for health care.

Can I just pitch some funds into the kitty and keep my handgun?

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19339 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/9/2009 12:29 AM
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The US now spends $2.353 Trillion on health care.
If we adopted the Canadian System, it would be $1.186 Trillion

Saving the US $1.167 Trillion and we would have every single person in the US covered.


Is this really true? What if there are other things that contribute to high health care costs in the USA? What if, for example, we shoot each other more often? What if we are fatter and come down with certain diseases more often than Canadians do on average? What if we drive faster and more recklessly and have more accidents and thus incur more medical costs? What if we have more drug abusers (meth, etc) on average? What if we have more poor people that don't guard their health very well? What if we live otherwise riskier lives, engage in riskier sports, and require more medical care? Or engage in strenuous sports later in life requiring additional medical care? What if we are too independent minded to go to a doctor and only wait until something has gotten really bad before checking it out?

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19347 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/9/2009 9:20 AM
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"If you really want to send tele into a tizzy, tell him that we're going to collect all the handguns and auction them off to pay for health care."

Best way for the lib dems to be a very minor party in the next election.....about the same strength as Ralph Nader's Green Party.....


Go for it!....... You'll get 20% of the vote....


t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19348 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/9/2009 9:22 AM
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"If you really want to send tele into a tizzy, tell him that we're going to collect all the handguns and auction them off to pay for health care."

IT could be that the Obozo adminstration attempt to bail out the auto unions hits a brick wall with the current suit now before the Supreme Court on 'illegal taking' of property.

Likely if that succeeds (fifth amendment)....same issue for confiscating guns'......

Of course, you can give us $10,000 apiece, auction them off so we can buy them back at $50 apiece, and let the lib dems come up with the taxes to fund such an idiotic lib dem proposal in the first place.

t.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19350 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/9/2009 9:30 AM
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<<If you really want to send tele into a tizzy, tell him that we're going to collect all the handguns and auction them off to pay for health care.

intercst
>>


Excellent plan. The last time around it arguably elected George Bush as President rather than Al Gore.


I'd like to suggest that Dems resurrect George McGorvern's gasoline tax as a campaign platform as well?



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: Volucris Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19354 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/9/2009 10:24 AM
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Is this really true? What if there are other things that contribute to high health care costs in the USA? What if, for example, we shoot each other more often? What if we are fatter and come down with certain diseases more often than Canadians do on average? What if we drive faster and more recklessly and have more accidents and thus incur more medical costs? What if we have more drug abusers (meth, etc) on average?

A large part is that, if one doesn't have health insurance and they are sick, they wait until it is so bad they go to the ER. ER care is some of the most expensive around. If they don't have the money, insurance customers and taxpayers pick it up.

But, for some reason this is better than a national health plan. Well, if you're delusional it's better.

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19414 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/13/2009 11:23 PM
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Despite righty tighty noise on the issue, nothing has changed.

The US now spends $2.353 Trillion on health care.
If we adopted the Canadian System, it would be $1.186 Trillion

Saving the US $1.167 Trillion and we would have every single person in the US covered.


I want to thank everyone who has participated on this thread. I am now able to visualize what it might have been like if Issac Newton had decided to discuss Calculus with a sponge.

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 19430 of 58804
Subject: Re: End of the Health Care debate Date: 6/15/2009 2:37 PM
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Volucris says

Despite righty tighty noise on the issue, nothing has changed.

The US now spends $2.353 Trillion on health care.
If we adopted the Canadian System, it would be $1.186 Trillion

Saving the US $1.167 Trillion and we would have every single person in the US covered.

Yup.

We could pay for it by lowering taxes.

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