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Author: moggiemac One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 49409  
Subject: Ethical question part two Date: 11/14/2012 9:06 PM
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Hey all,

I approached my boss the way that Fuskie recommended. I went to my boss and said 'listen I've been offered a job by a client and it has benefits to me, but I won't take the offer unless you and the client can come up with a satisfactory agreement between the two of you.'

Of course my boss asked about the money and the rest of the offer and I ended up telling him what the other offer was. I made the point that my discussion with him was not about the money, but about the client and my company coming to an agreement. I also told him about my partner being laid off.

My boss said flat out that if it was a question of money that they would give me the same amount as long as I turned down the other job . There was a lot of talk about what a loss it would be to the company, what a great employee I am and how no matter what the other company gave them it could never make it worth my company's while. Needless to say I walked out of that meeting feeling like a star. So when my boss said they hadn't changed their mind about letting me go, I said fine I'll stay.

So here is where it gets interesting...

Since that time, I have not heard anything from my boss other than a request for a meeting about the situation so that we could tie up loose ends. I agreed to the meeting and said that we could have it on a day that my boss was available, but he didn't get back to me with a time. So I followed up to ask when we were supposed to meet. I have not heard anything from him since that original meeting request which was in the first week in October.

No mention of a raise, not even a reply to emails specifically asking him to meet with me. So I'm left wondering what is going on...

Any ideas of how to approach him now that I'm getting radio silence? I know I told him it was not about the money, but he was the one who offered to match the money the client was going to pay me.

I feel akward going back to him now to say "Hey listen, I know I said it wasn't about the money, but my partner is still out of work and you did make me a promise, so please pay me the money'.

Any one got any advice on this one?

Thanks,
Moggie
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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 49000 of 49409
Subject: Re: Ethical question part two Date: 11/14/2012 9:10 PM
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My opinion - you will continue to be taken advantage of as long as you choose the moral high ground and your employer looks out for only their best interest.

You need to do what is best for you. The company will always do what is best for the company. Ideally those interests align, but as you have seen there are times when they don't.

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Author: moggiemac One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 49001 of 49409
Subject: Re: Ethical question part two Date: 11/14/2012 9:24 PM
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I guess I have a hard time thinking that they are taking advantage of me. I really like my boss and I'd like to think he wouldn't deliberately shine me on, but I don't know why he's not talking to me.

The easiest answer I guess is that he has changed his mind and that he no longer wants to give me the raise. Which bothers me, but not as the much as lack of communication.

In my more paranoid moments I wonder if he is just waiting to hear that the client has hired someone and then they will let me go.

In my better moments I think that my boss just can't come up with the raise and doesn't know how to tell me.

Am I being too pollyanna'ish?

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Author: RHinCT Big red star, 1000 posts Ticker Guide SC1 Red Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 49002 of 49409
Subject: Re: Ethical question part two Date: 11/14/2012 9:49 PM
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Did he really have the freedom to make the offer? Unless your boss is the head of the company, he may have been told by his boss that the idea of matching the money is not acceptable.

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Author: Fuskie Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Ticker Guide SC1 Red Winner of the 2010 Rule Breakers Challenge Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 49003 of 49409
Subject: Re: Ethical question part two Date: 11/14/2012 10:49 PM
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First, if you didn't get it in writing, it didn't happen. Second, you didn't quite follow my advice. I wouldn't have said it wasn't about the money (nobody really believes that) or mentioned your partner. They read that this was indeed about money and you gave the contract agency the information they needed to feed you what you wanted to hear, whether you realized it or not. As you said, you left the meeting feeling like a rock star.

The problem at hand isn't whether they will match the client's offer. The only issue is whether you can accept the client's offer without violating the terms of your contract. Whether the client violates the terms of their contract with the agency is between them, not you. You fulfilled your responsibility by letting your agency know of the offer.

Read through your contract and if there is nothing prohibiting you from accepting an offer of direct employ, then go for it. If there is, you risk being penalized for being in violation if you take the job. If not, you have to decide whether or not you want to keep working for the agency which is not treating you with respect.

The only thing the agency cares about is being able to continue to bill the client for your services. Any increase they give you comes at the expense of their profit margin since they likely cannot increase the rate they charge the client until the end of the contract term.

Fuskie
Who notes if you want to get the agency's attention, give them 2 week's notice (not to the client) if they don't release you to accept the client's offer or grant your conditions to stay with athe agency; either they will meet your terms, release you to the client, or let you walk, which you'll have to be prepared to do...

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Author: kahunacfa Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 49010 of 49409
Subject: Re: Ethical question part two Date: 11/16/2012 11:39 PM
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...So here is where it gets interesting...

Since that time, I have not heard anything from my boss other than a request for a meeting about the situation so that we could tie up loose ends. I agreed to the meeting and said that we could have it on a day that my boss was available, but he didn't get back to me with a time. So I followed up to ask when we were supposed to meet. I have not heard anything from him since that original meeting request which was in the first week in October.

No mention of a raise, not even a reply to emails specifically asking him to meet with me. So I'm left wondering what is going on...

Any ideas of how to approach him now that I'm getting radio silence? I know I told him it was not about the money, but he was the one who offered to match the money the client was going to pay me.

I feel akward going back to him now to say "Hey listen, I know I said it wasn't about the money, but my partner is still out of work and you did make me a promise, so please pay me the money'.

Any one got any advice on this one?

Thanks,
- moggiemac | Date: 11/14/2012 9:06:18 PM | Number: 49009

NEVER, EVER engage in a bidding WAR for your employment services. Either your present employer will keep you compensation at market levels or they will NOT. Whenever, I ever left a position I really liked, and I LOVED all of my investment positions from 1974 to the present, I never left for less than a 50% increase in base compensation + bonus.

I also NEVER expected or asked my then current employer to match the new offered compensation. I left a position I LOVED in 1980. In 1983, the company I left hired me back as a Vice President, Division head at the usual 50% or more compensation increase, plus a bonus of up to 200% of my base, plus a company provided leased automobile.

Kahuna, CFA
Venture Capital
Founding General
Partner 96745

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 49014 of 49409
Subject: Re: Ethical question part two Date: 11/19/2012 2:30 PM
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I guess I have a hard time thinking that they are taking advantage of me. I really like my boss and I'd like to think he wouldn't deliberately shine me on, but I don't know why he's not talking to me.

Honestly? Your boss just played you like a Stradvarius. You said it's not abput the money, he said we'll match if you agree not to take the other job, you declined the other job and he now has zero incentive to give you any sort of raise at all.

Am I being too pollyanna'ish?

Yes.

I'd suggest that you follow the advice Fuskie gave you in this thread to the letter, and/or hope that your partner gets another job soon.

LWW

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 49015 of 49409
Subject: Re: Ethical question part two Date: 11/19/2012 3:37 PM
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I guess I have a hard time thinking that they are taking advantage of me. I really like my boss and I'd like to think he wouldn't deliberately shine me on, but I don't know why he's not talking to me.

I'd call HR yesterday and see how proud he is of his work.
Either they stand behind their word or you learn something about exactly how much he'd shine you on.
Ray

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Author: moggiemac One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 49016 of 49409
Subject: Re: Ethical question part two Date: 11/20/2012 3:16 PM
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Hey all,

So it turns out that my boss has not been talking to me because the 'details of the events have become blurry'. He's basically saying he can not tell if I solicited the client or they solicited me. A bit later on he says that they have to determine if the act is in clear violation of the employment agreement and if they wish to act on it.

He goes on to state that they do not wish to 'cut our relationship short' and look forward to 'our mutually bright future'.

Oh heck.

I wrote him back a long email with my account and tried to be as fair and impartial as I could. I took blame for not being more forthwright with the client when turning them down and for not finding it easy to turn down a direct request for help. I also reiterated that I turned down a very substantial amount of money and a great commute (one that costs me more than the raise would offset).

I think the long and the short of it is that some one at the client site sold me out, and that there is no raise in my future.

I should never have come to him with this. I should have either taken the job or not, but I should not have tried to have it both ways.

Yeesh, another lesson learned.
moggie

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Author: moggiemac One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 49017 of 49409
Subject: Re: Ethical question part two Date: 11/20/2012 3:18 PM
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Hey Ray,

We have no HR department. The office joke is that the HR in basket is the shredder. It's a small company with a charismatic leader who runs the place.

moggie

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Author: moggiemac One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 49018 of 49409
Subject: Re: Ethical question part two Date: 11/20/2012 3:42 PM
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Hey Fuskie,

I didn't play that very well I admit.

I honestly did not think that my boss would come back to me and turn it around on me. I did not see that one coming, I gotta say.

Originally I got an email from him that said that they would 'not use paperwork to strong arm' me in to staying, and then today the message about not being sure if I solicited the client for the job and needing to determine if they wanted to act on that.

I could give my current company 2 weeks notice, rely on the fact that non-solicits are hard to enforce and the email about strong-arming, but what then?

I am not going to go to the client that threw me under the bus by implying that I was the one who approached them. So unless I want to throw away my job on a point of pride I am stuck.

Yah I really didn't play that well at all.

moggie

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 49019 of 49409
Subject: Re: Ethical question part two Date: 11/20/2012 3:52 PM
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I am not going to go to the client that threw me under the bus by implying that I was the one who approached them. So unless I want to throw away my job on a point of pride I am stuck.


The flip side is that your boss lied to your face to cost you a real job opportunity. He made you a promise, reneged, and there seems to be no recourse.
You are talented enough to have received an offer recently. Why not search for a better job? You can't trust your current leadership.
Ray

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