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Author: isewquilts2 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 886533  
Subject: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 3:00 PM
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Given that Black Friday is near, how do you reconcile your LBYM life with your ethics? I am thinking of WalMart in particular. We know they have low prices--but at what cost to the people who work there? How do you reconcile your desire to spend less money with your ethical considerations?

I am finding myself feeling rather guilty when I shop at WalMart--am I supporting sweatshop-like Chinese jobs and low American wages? Should I be paying more and going elsewhere to shop?

I'd like your thoughts. I realize that this is an individual decision and one size does not fit all, but where have you drawn that "line in the sand"?

As an example--I am looking at an iPad. WalMart has a sale Thanksgiving evening, $399 + a $75 WalMart gift card. Other stores have the $399 price, but not the gift card.

isewquilts...conflicted
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Author: Windowseat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868941 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 3:08 PM
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Ladies and Gentlemen, Walmart thread number 3.

I'll see you when it's over.

Nancy

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Author: isewquilts2 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868942 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 3:14 PM
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Sorry--haven't been paying much attention, obviously. Still, I am sincere in asking....let's leave the specific example of WalMart out of the equation.

Let me rephrase it this way: DO you care about LBYM and ethics? Should it matter? Should we always be looking at price only?


isewquilts...still curious

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Author: cabinsmama Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868944 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 3:35 PM
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I don't think my shopping is connected that firmly to my sense of ethics. Some days convenience is more important than price, some days it's the other way around, sometimes not having a miserable shopping experience wins.

I'm fine with shopping at Wal-mart if it meets my needs. They were an adequate employer to a family member, with good insurance when he needed it. Employees at our local WM don't look miserable, and it looks better (to me) than working in a poultry processing plant.

I know shopping there isn't thought of as convenient or pleasant, but I'm thinking of when I need a variety of things and Wal-mart keeps me from stopping at 3 different places.

I don't know that I'd venture out for a $75 gift card. Sounds like potential for crazy driving and parking, too many people in one area...I'd be happy, I think, just to get an iPad at $399. I paid quite a bit more for mine so that sounds like a great deal even without the gift card.

My line in the sand as far as shopping has to do more with my comfort level than anything else. I know Trader Joe's gets wonderful reviews, so I tried one that just opened near here. The experience just hit me wrong (crowded, too many aisle displays, not the selection I was expecting, what I did get wasn't that great, just...not worth it to me). So, I doubt I'll be back.

Target, though, which I'd thought of as miserable in general, redeemed itself with its new grocery section. I found the types of things I had expected in Trader Joe's, and other than being too maze-like, it was not bad at all. I guess my line in the sand is pretty flexible.

Probably not a lot of help, but that's my 2 cents.

cm

(However you get your iPad, I hope you enjoy it :-))

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Author: 1DEG Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868945 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 3:38 PM
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I reconcile this by buying less stuff. If I buy fewer things, I don't have to be as concerned with getting the absolute best, rock bottom price. I can choose to spend a little more to use companies I like, for whatever reason.

I also realize I am lucky because my family has enough money that I can make this choice. Not everyone can. So while I absolutely do my best to support companies who treat their workers well, I do not judge those who need to make other choices.

DEG

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Author: llamalluv Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868952 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 4:14 PM
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If you aren't already camped out at your local Walmart, you are unlikely to get that $399 plus gift card deal on the ipad. There have been people camped out at stores since Monday to get the best deals.

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Author: isewquilts2 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868953 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 4:24 PM
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The deal is supposed to be available for anyone in line between 10pm and 11pm. If stock runs out, there is *supposed* to be a voucher that will be given to redeem for the iPad. Can't find the link right now...


isewquilts

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Author: snippee Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868954 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 4:29 PM
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How do you reconcile your desire to spend less money with your ethical considerations?


For me, it's more than ethics - it's a matter of public policy. (Not that the two are mutually exclusive.) There's a reason Walmart* has low prices - the costs get passed down the line to everyone else. The prices aren't really low at all, just artificially deflated at the point-of-sale.

I've done lots of research and tried to get past the logical fallacies and snobby biases to get the the meat of it. I won't bore you with the details but came to the conclusion that i'd rather pay a little more upfront for any items i'd buy that are available at Walmart (or simply do without) than support a corporation i disagree with so vehemently**. I'm so disgusted by them i have a visceral reaction to seeing their ads (print, TV, what-have-you) and look away immediately. Thus, i have no idea what sort of "deals" i'm missing.

Like DEG, we have the luxury of being in a position to make this choice. Also like DEG, we have made conscious choices to just Not Buy Stuff sometimes if the item in question has a blood diamond-like background (e.g. of dubious manufacturing) so the question of needing to go to Walmart becomes moot.

All THBS, i totally understand your conflicted feelings. I doubt you'll find anyone who can beat Walmart's iPad deal - that's sort of their whole MO - but if you do a little digging, you might find another offer that comes close...maybe even online. cm's thought about the crowds and all that comes with them on Black Friday was something i hadn't even considered. *shudder* For me, that's a deal-breaker but you might have a higher tolerance for such frenzies. Either way, don't discount it in your decision-making. Also check to see if there are limited quantities available - you don't want to go through all that hassle and have to leave empty-handed.

Sorry to not have a good solution for you. Good for you for even thinking about this sort of thing - and enjoy your iPad, wherever you get it. :)




* Walmart is certainly not the only offender out there. IMO, Target, Costco and Home Depot (to name a few) are only slightly better - their corporate practices are a smidge less offensive but they carry the same over-produced crap that no one really needs yet buys with abandon. Hence, we limit ourselves at these places, too.

** This decision, like many i make, did not come quickly. I didn't simply stop shopping at Walmart one day. I hadn't really been a frequent shopper but would go there occasionally. The more i learned, the more i was turned off until i just quit going altogether.

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868956 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 4:41 PM
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Should we always be looking at price only?

I don't think it's ever "price only". Because there's "value" which always comes into play. And "value" might be in the form of a shopping experience (clean stores, short check out lines, organized shelves) or the quality of what you're buying - say organic berries with less pesticide versus conventional berries.

So I look at what I'm looking to buy, what level of "value" I want, and then check out price.

So for instance in your example of a $399 iPad, I'd forgo the $75 giftcard if it requires standing online Thursday at Walmart or being in the mad rush - the stress and annoyance of that (and possibly injury with shoving based on past years news reports) just wouldn't be worth the $75 to me.

But I can prioritize "value" more now because I'm in a better position financially - meaning I'm already saving a lot. If I couldn't afford to contribut anything to a retirement fund/savings/etc than I'd probably forgo the extra expense of organic berries. I guess what I'm trying to say is as my means increase, since I'm also increasing savings anyway, I have more leeway to pay more to support more ethical/sustainable service/goods providers.

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Author: LaraAmber Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868957 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 4:43 PM
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There is no conundrum for me. If there are particular retailers I don't use, I don't browse their specials, so I wouldn't even know about their deal. Even if I did know from someone else telling me, it still wouldn't tempt me. I won't step foot in there. Why would a gift card to a store I abhor tempt me?

Lara Amber

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Author: LOTROQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868963 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 7:36 PM
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DO you care about LBYM and ethics? Should it matter? Should we always be looking at price only?


Yes, it matters; it's stupid to only look at the price. There are ethical considerations and YMMV. I avoid Wal-Mart as much as possible and it is VERY rare for me to shop there.

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868966 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 7:56 PM
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Given that Black Friday is near, how do you reconcile your LBYM life with your ethics? I am thinking of WalMart in particular. We know they have low prices--but at what cost to the people who work there? How do you reconcile your desire to spend less money with your ethical considerations?

Do you work for the unions?

This is the kind of krap the unions used to pay people to put up on the web.

If you're really all that worried about it give the gift card to the "greeter" at Walmart's door then turn around and go home. Just think you'll have saved the poor Walmart employee from a fate worse than unemployment. NO WAIT! Walmart already did that.

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868968 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 8:19 PM
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How do you reconcile your desire to spend less money with your ethical considerations?

I do a lot of my shopping online. I frequent Kohl's, Target, Michael's and a lot of other chains. I do not shop at Wal-Mart.

I also do not go out on Black Friday. Ever. At all. My self-imposed rule is that ALL holiday shopping will be completed by Thanksgiving and the ONLY "shopping" that I will do between Thanksgiving and Christmas is grocery shopping.

Also, my family is Jewish so sometimes I have to have it done anyway. In 2013, the first day of Hanukkah is Thanksgiving.

I am not sure you can buy pretty much anything now and be in the clear from an ethics perspective. At Wal-mart you're supporting the Chinese sweatshops, but apparently, you're doing that with any Apple product anyway. Same for Amazon, I've heard horrible things about how they treat their employees.

Scratch the surface of most chain stores, and you'll find anecdata on both sides of the fence. Some, like Wal-Mart, have a preponderance on one side, but there's always the merchandise itself to contend with. Sure, you bought it in a place that treats its employees well, but what about the people who made the product in the first place?

My line in the sand is the "all shopping done BEFORE Thanksgiving, period."

I also try to shop throughout the year and not confine myself to the holiday season.

In addition: I pretty much loathe being in crowded places. I don't have enough patience with humanity to put up with the bull. There's no deal good enough to get me to go out under those circumstances.

So that's my other line in the sand: My sanity is WAY more important to me than the deal. Of course, that often means I forgo buying the item entirely, but that's fine with me.

GSF

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868969 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 8:57 PM
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How do you reconcile your desire to spend less money with your ethical considerations?

I squeeze a penny until it screams.

PSU

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868970 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 9:47 PM
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At Wal-mart you're supporting the Chinese sweatshops, but apparently, you're doing that with any Apple product anyway.

The other side of the coin though is that sweatshops is how countries like China and Taiwan have increased the standard of living for their population - the *new* lowest cost country for things like clothing manufacturing is Vietnam.

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868971 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/21/2012 11:30 PM
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I am not sure you can buy pretty much anything now and be in the clear from an ethics perspective. At Wal-mart you're supporting the Chinese sweatshops, but apparently, you're doing that with any Apple product anyway. Same for Amazon, I've heard horrible things about how they treat their employees.

no, NO, NO! The script says Walmart is evil - ONLY Walmart!
Reread your union manual.
/sarcasm

Scratch the surface of most chain stores, and you'll find anecdata on both sides of the fence. Some, like Wal-Mart, have a preponderance on one side, but there's always the merchandise itself to contend with. Sure, you bought it in a place that treats its employees well, but what about the people who made the product in the first place?

Exactly!

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Author: martybl Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868972 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 2:17 AM
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I am finding myself feeling rather guilty when I shop at WalMart

I don't shop at Walmart, period. The couple of times I've been there I've found the stores to be dingy, crowded and understaffed. Life is too short to subject myself to that environment. Although I've not done exhaustive comparison shopping, Target seems to have competitive prices on the things I'd buy at Walmart in much nicer surroundings.

Without going through the whole litany of grievances against Walmart, the one that sticks in my mind is that it has contributed to the homogenization of rural America. I can't help but think that it has contributed to the loss of interesting and unique small town downtown shopping areas.

I am looking at an iPad. . . $399 + a $75 WalMart gift card

Whether or not there would be SOME bargain that would cause me to again set foot in Walmart, this one certainly isn't it. It's not much of a bargain, period. I wouldn't buy it at Neiman Marcus, even at a private shopping event.

The iPad that they're offering is the obsolescent iPad 2, introduced in early 2011. It has an older, slower processor than the current iPad, lacks a Retina Display, and uses the 30-pin connector, which is itself rapidly becoming obsolescent. In addition, it only has 16GB of storage capacity.

One can get this dinosaur any day of the week from Apple for the same $399, so the deal comes down to the $75 gift card. Apple will be having its own Black Friday online sale. While they haven't yet announced their discounts, last year they offered $41 off the iPad 2, while it was still state-of-the-art. I think it's highly likely that Apple will offer at least that much off of the iPad 2 this year. I'd rather have the cash discount than the Walmart gift card, particularly when it's coupled with the convenience of shopping at home, saving the cost and aggravation of fighting Black Friday crowds.

martybl

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Author: wecoguy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868973 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 2:52 AM
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This has it beat, plus you don't have to darken the predatory WalMart's doors, website, at all... It's actually an extension of the Apple online store, so full warranty, etc..

http://stores.ebay.com/All4Cellular/_i.html?rt=nc&_nkw=i...

So $349.... Well worth avoiding WM...

Ever read the story on Troy-Built mowers? Fine example of WM's predatory game, pull in a vendor, and squeeze them to death...

weco

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Author: wecoguy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868974 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 3:09 AM
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Not sure of the other link, but here's the article I saw last week...

http://9to5mac.com/2012/11/19/apple-opens-its-first-ebay-sto...

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Author: Commodore64 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868975 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 3:46 AM
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"Do you work for the unions?"

She probably doesn't work for the unions, but probably has been influenced by the very effective union propaganda machine.

Unions can be very good at propaganda. For example, most people think teachers are "underpaid," based largely on decades of union propaganda that makes us think teachers get paid next to nothing, when, in fact, they make pretty good money.

Sometimes when I hear these union types spouting their "underpaid" mantra, I wish I could stick them for a month in a job that is really "underpaid"- where wages are low, working conditions are brutal, and salaries are less than half of what the average "underpaid" teacher makes.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868977 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 8:11 AM
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I think ethics and budget are two separate things. Setting aside the endless question of "Is Walmart Good or Bad," if one simply doesn't LIKE Walmart, then one shouldn't buy there.

Sure, it's cheap, but it's not the only cheap shopping outlet out there. And a budget is flexible so maybe if you spend more - say - on Christmas decorations, tires or toilet paper (or whatever you go to Walmart to buy), you spend less on some other things and it balances out.

Me, I don't like them, but there's none near me. If there was I would find other places to shop - Grocery Outlet, my local ethnic stores, Goodwill, Target, etc. A price book is useful to compare. Sometimes people THINK a place has the best deals just because they are said to do so. They may, they may not. And that savings may be significant, or it may not. Sure, you may save $5, but can that be saved elsewhere?

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868978 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 8:14 AM
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Do you work for the unions?

This is the kind of krap the unions used to pay people to put up on the web.

Good god. Not everyone thinks like you. Nor should they. Someone expressed an opinion about her beliefs not yours.

I don't care particularly about Walmart (I don't like them much, but more for their cheapie/crappy big box feel than anything else), but if someone ELSE doesn't like Walmart and doesn't want to shop there they shouldn't have to do so just because YOU think they should. If YOU like Walmart, then YOU get to shop there to your heart's content. You are the OP and she isn't you.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868979 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 10:23 AM
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I am finding myself feeling rather guilty when I shop at WalMart--am I supporting sweatshop-like Chinese jobs and low American wages?

Whereever you buy Chinese made goods you are supporting sweatshops in China and low American wages. Many Chinese companies are owned by the Chinese military.

Buying less junk is the LBYM solution.

(I am regretting that I bought an iPAD. For us, it is mostly useless. About all it is useful for is showing photos to the family.)

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Author: llamalluv Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868981 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 10:40 AM
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Do you work for the unions?

This is the kind of krap the unions used to pay people to put up on the web.


I looked into that, but you have to be union to get that job.

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Author: isewquilts2 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868984 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 12:06 PM
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Thanks to all for your input. I value all of your repsonses.


isewquilts

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868985 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 12:38 PM
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<< Do you work for the unions?

This is the kind of krap the unions used to pay people to put up on the web.


I looked into that, but you have to be union to get that job. >>


I'll bet the pay is crap, too.

And unions are notoriously hostile to THEIR employees organizing into unions.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868986 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 2:36 PM
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Whereever you buy Chinese made goods you are supporting sweatshops in China and low American wages.

An excellent point that is oft overlooked by the anti-Walmarters.

Some other points to consider:

Many items we use are made only in China nowadays.

Most stores nowadays carry made-in-China merchandise.

Walmart carries American made brands.

Do Mom & Pop Inc. offer better wages and benefits than Walmart?

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868987 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 2:45 PM
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Ummm...yeah - because the LBYM board SO MUCH needed a third thread on Walmart labor policies.

The Q was...(independent of any hoo-hah from all of you who want to indulge endlessly in the Walmart argument)...how do you in your life balance your ideas on ethics and your frugality? There are plenty of non-Walmart examples you could use. Buying from a vendor whose policies of whatever kind you don't support. Scavanging. Buying on the black or grey market for a screaming deal. Buy local vs. buy imported.

Everyone has their own line they will draw about what they will and won't compromise. This particular poster asked a Q about Walmart, but the Q is general.

My personal guideline is - if I am already asking myself "should I really do this"? then I shouldn't be doing it.

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868989 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 2:59 PM
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And unions are notoriously hostile to THEIR employees organizing into unions.

LOL!

Years ago mad magazine did a story about union employees joining a union to protect them from their union employers.

Desert (ah, the good old days) Dave

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868990 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 3:05 PM
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The Q was......how do you in your life balance your ideas on ethics and your frugality?

That's easy, There are no ethics problems. Walmart is just another store, no better or worse than the others. Some are fancier and more expensive and some have what I want when Walmart doesn't.

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868992 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 7:45 PM
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Walmart is just another store, no better or worse than the others. Some are fancier and more expensive and some have what I want when Walmart doesn't.

Actually, no it's not. It's not "just another store." It's too big for that, the dynamics of how they do business are entirely different than that. That's kind of the point.

GSF

(I work for a Big Company that does business with Wal-Mart and used to support them. The dynamics of the account were discussed ad nauseum, this isn't the "I watched an expose on Wal-Mart" talking. I do see and acknowledge that they are NOT "just another store" and this is based on a lot of data. GBs and GBs of data).

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Author: Imabookworm Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868995 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/22/2012 11:23 PM
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Given that Black Friday is near, how do you reconcile your LBYM life with your ethics? I am thinking of WalMart in particular. We know they have low prices--but at what cost to the people who work there? How do you reconcile your desire to spend less money with your ethical considerations?

Look at it this way - if there were no shoppers there would be no jobs.
Then all the people you are concerned about would be out of work altogether. What happens to your ethics at that point?

Further, everytime I have seen a Wal-Mart open a new store, it isn't long before there are a number of new stores, restaurants and banks that come into the immediate vicinity - if not using the same parking lot. If the wage scale in those places is higher employees could always change jobs - possibly using the experience they gained at Wal-Mart.

Ima

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Author: 1DEG Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868996 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/23/2012 12:27 AM
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The Q was...(independent of any hoo-hah from all of you who want to indulge endlessly in the Walmart argument)...how do you in your life balance your ideas on ethics and your frugality? There are plenty of non-Walmart examples you could use. Buying from a vendor whose policies of whatever kind you don't support. Scavanging. Buying on the black or grey market for a screaming deal. Buy local vs. buy imported.

I agree. Walmart is really a red herring, and one that gets people oddly reactionary. For me this issue comes up much more with decisions like paying attention to where my food comes from. Buying food farmed in sustainable ways. Buying fair trade coffee and chocolate from sources that do not use child slave labor.

There are a lot of small choices we make every day where we have to balance ethics versus getting the absolute cheapest. My solution is still to buy less so I can afford better of what I do buy. And my answer is still that I understand that no everyone has the means to make these choices. Especially when it comes to food, which is when I find myself making them most.

DEG

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868997 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/23/2012 7:41 AM
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Cheap is good, free is better. Not many free deals out there today so we're not out shopping.

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Author: Lea77 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 868999 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/23/2012 10:41 AM
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I doubt you'll find anyone who can beat Walmart's iPad deal

Actually, my cousin read the fine print on the target ad and they had the ipad2 at 399 with a 60 gift card. So, Walmart had them beat by 15 bucks. So worth it! (not for moral reasons, just because it was easier scheduling wise - plus target is much calmer).

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Author: ramsfanray Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869000 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/23/2012 2:05 PM
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DO you care about LBYM and ethics?

Yes. But you have to prioritize your life too. When ethical conflicts arise, you resolve them by priority. My family comes first. Sometimes, that means having to find the lowest price above all other considerations.

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869002 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/23/2012 5:08 PM
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For example, most people think teachers are "underpaid," based largely on decades of union propaganda that makes us think teachers get paid next to nothing, when, in fact, they make pretty good money.

I always thought people thought teachers were "underpaid" for having to put up with children and parents who think they're doing a favor for creating a job for a teacher, versus society/teachers doing the child/parent a favor for educating the little fools.


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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869003 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/23/2012 5:19 PM
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Cheap is good, free is better. Not many free deals out there today so we're not out shopping.

If you wait until after Christmas, you'll probably be able to find lots of great deals via Craigslist with all the stuff people are replacing.

Just saw on the news that by Friday 5pm Walmart had sold 1.5 million TVs over Thursday/Friday. IMO the sad part of that is probably a lot of needless spending - where people are just buying another TV or possibly replacing a perfectly good TV. And it's a little sad this comes just weeks after an election where the squeezing of the middle class was so front-and-center - makes one wonder how much of that "squeezing" is self-inflicted.

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869016 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/24/2012 10:50 AM
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Let me rephrase it this way: DO you care about LBYM and ethics? Should it matter? Should we always be looking at price only?

Yes, ethics matter. And it's Living Below Your Means, not living at the absolute rock bottom possible, right?

I'll gladly pay a little more at a retailer who treats their employees fairly. And that includes spending more for goods that do not come from sweatshops in Indonesia.

Americans are truly the world's worst hypocrites when it comes to consumerism. We talk about how much we value things that are "American Made" but then we support companies shipping jobs overseas just so we can get socks for under $1 a pair, you know?

LWW

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869018 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/24/2012 11:33 AM
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<<I'll gladly pay a little more at a retailer who treats their employees fairly.>>



The hate campaign being waged against Wal-Mart is inspired, organized and maintained mostly by the United Food and Commercial Workers union.

Their BIGGEST issue with Wal-Mart is their fear that Wal-Mart will compete with their heavily unionized grocery stores in urban areas, putting them out of business.

Wal-Mart's labor standards appear to be at least as high as the norm in their retail store business such as Target, Sears and such, and a good deal higher than most of the mom 'n pop stores they compete against in rural areas.

On the whole I'd say Wal-Mart is neutral to somewhat positive in the way it treats employees. The Wal-Mart hate campaign is mostly about giving the Union power to exclude Wal-Mart from certain kinds of business in certain urban areas.

That's what the Wal-Mart hate campaign is really all about, and that's what it has accomplished in some degree. If that's adequate reason for someone to participate in this hate campaign, help yourself.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: wrjohnston91283 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869025 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/24/2012 4:49 PM
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Unions can be very good at propaganda. For example, most people think teachers are "underpaid," based largely on decades of union propaganda that makes us think teachers get paid next to nothing, when, in fact, they make pretty good money.

I'll agree that long term teachers are making 'good' money, but nothing compared to what people in the private sector make, especially considering years of service.

My wife is a teacher in Massachusetts, and I've looked over their employment contract. Entry level teachers start around $43,000 a year, and only after 14 years of service and a paying/earning a PhD can they make it to $90,000. In the private sector, someone with 14 years of experience and a post graduate degree would earn far more.

However, the 'problem' of teachers earning relatively little isn't because the school systems are greedy; its that there are tons of new teachers willing to teach at these rates.

It's the same thing with many low skill / no skill retailer jobs. There are countless people willing to work these jobs for low wages, so there is nothing pushing wages up.

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Author: LuckyDog2002 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869026 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/24/2012 6:10 PM
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Ladies and Gentlemen, Walmart thread number 3.

I'll see you when it's over.

Nancy

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

:) you're funny but this is one of those things that people angst about. Not me though. I'm into dollars and cents and using my common cents to lower my expenses.

China dominates the USA with their stuff, go to any store and you can find foreign made stuff, that includes Costco and Target, everywhere.

If someone wanted to be pure and just buy USA made stuff, then more power to them, searching those goods out and paying their prices.

The whole labor strife angle is perpetuated by the unions who want a piece of the pie out of workers paychecks. Go to any grocery store out there and you will find, scheduling conflicts, managers who are less than sensitive and a pay-scale that's low and a lot of turnover.

If you don't want to shop at Wal Mart, don't shop there but whereever you shop, hold them to the same standards that you do at Wal Mart.

It's Shop Local day here in Va. you could shop local but inquire as to their pay and benefits and work accommodations.

LuckyDog

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869027 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/24/2012 6:18 PM
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In the private sector, someone with 14 years of experience and a post graduate degree would earn far more.

Not necessarily. With layoffs in different industries, it's very possible the person in the private sector wouldn't be making >$90,000 if they've had setbacks in their career - such as having to take a paycut after a layoff.

Plus the private sector person most likely isn't pension eligible, can't stay in a company healthcare plan once they retire, and doesn't get 3 months of vacation time.

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Author: 2gifts Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869031 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/24/2012 6:59 PM
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My wife is a teacher in Massachusetts, and I've looked over their employment contract. Entry level teachers start around $43,000 a year, and only after 14 years of service and a paying/earning a PhD can they make it to $90,000. In the private sector, someone with 14 years of experience and a post graduate degree would earn far more.

I'm also in MA where the standard teacher contract also includes language that says teachers are only required to work 6 1/2 hour days for somewhere between 184-187 days where the private sector tends to require 8 hour days for around 250 days. In both cases, I think people do work longer hours, but when faced with work-to-rule situations, teachers work a much shorter day. So yes, they make less in terms of dollars in their pocket, but they work fewer days.

Teachers and teacher unions have marketing all figured out.

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Author: AmericanIdle Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869032 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/24/2012 8:25 PM
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I'm also in MA where the standard teacher contract also includes language that says teachers are only required to work 6 1/2 hour days for somewhere between 184-187 days where the private sector tends to require 8 hour days for around 250 days. In both cases, I think people do work longer hours, but when faced with work-to-rule situations, teachers work a much shorter day. So yes, they make less in terms of dollars in their pocket, but they work fewer days.

Teachers and teacher unions have marketing all figured out.


You really think that's all most teachers work?

AI, professor at state unuversity

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869033 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/24/2012 9:32 PM
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My wife is a teacher in Massachusetts, and I've looked over their employment contract. Entry level teachers start around $43,000 a year, and only after 14 years of service and a paying/earning a PhD can they make it to $90,000. In the private sector, someone with 14 years of experience and a post graduate degree would earn far more.



Except you haven't included the pension benefits, or the limited number of days worked.

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869034 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/24/2012 10:13 PM
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If that's adequate reason for someone to participate in this hate campaign, help yourself.

I have no part of any hate campaign against Walmart. However, let me tell you a little anecdote about how they treat their employees:

My son in law got a transfer with his company to move to my hometown. There are 3 Walmarts and a Sam's Club there. When she found out that her husband was being transferred, DD#1 approached her manager at the Walmart she was employed with to see about getting a transfer to one of the other stores. Her manager made some calls, put forward all the paperwork and she was told she'd start her new job a few days after she moved.

Upon getting to her new home, she calls the store she was supposed to transfer to. After several days and no returned calls after leaving messages, she's finally told that apparently her transfer paperwork fell through the cracks because the manager who was supposed to make sure that she was processed had quit. But no worries, they'd get it fixed.

Since that time, first she was told that they couldn't actually move her to her old position of Customer Service Desk, so she has to take a position as a cashier. It pays 20 cents less an hour. She tells them okay.

Then they told her that since it will be a cut in pay, they have to wait until the start of the next pay period for her to start. Again, she tells them okay. They tell her they'll call her later in the week to give her the schedule.

When she didn't hear from them for almost a week, she called them to find out what was going on and she was given a song and dance about how they thought she was going to start the previous Saturday, and they need her new phone number, because they didn't have it. She points out to them that she has the same phone number that appears on all her paperwork, and that they have not called, as she has no missed calls on her phone. The person from Walmart then says btw, you do know this is a temporary job just through Christmas, right?

So to recap: she was told she could transfer full time to a new store, then she was told that she would have to take a position with a pay cut, then she was told that the job would be only temporary, so she'll lose her seniority from the time she has been previously working for them.

Yeah, they treat their employees really well.

LWW

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Author: sissylue Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869040 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/25/2012 10:04 AM
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teachers are only required to work 6 1/2 hour days for somewhere between 184-187 days

Uh no. I have a sister and one brother in law who are teachers and their hours are horrendous. I am sure that their contracts also have language to that effect but it's the time they are required to spend in the classroom in front of students. Which does not include the additional training they are required to take, the additional hours they are required to spend creating and assembling items for their lesson plans, grading, the work they do in their classrooms etc etc. My sister owned her own very profitable business 15 (20?) years ago when she made a deliberate decision to sell it and use the money to return to school to become an early childhood teacher (no her business degree did not qualify her to teach 5 year olds). We all thought she was crazy.
Some of us still do. She has experienced a huge income decrease and believe me the number of hours she works in no way decrease. She does it because she loves it and she thinks she is making a difference. While she does not regret her decision it does seem a bit churlish to criticize her wish to make a good wage or marshall arguments to denigrate the effort and hard work that teachers put in for the pay they get. The attitude of many Americans towards teachers and education is truly deplorable or at best, misinformed.

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Author: wrjohnston91283 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869041 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/25/2012 11:20 AM
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Except you haven't included the pension benefits, or the limited number of days worked.

Not necessarily. With layoffs in different industries, it's very possible the person in the private sector wouldn't be making >$90,000 if they've had setbacks in their career - such as having to take a paycut after a layoff.

Plus the private sector person most likely isn't pension eligible, can't stay in a company healthcare plan once they retire, and doesn't get 3 months of vacation time.


True, its not entirely apples to apples. Many teachers do find part time work in the summer, either tutoring, teaching summer school, coaching, etc that increases their annual pay.

The pension benefit for her requires her to contribute 9% of her gross pay to the pension program (not as bad as it seems since she's not contributing the 6.2% the rest of us contribute to social security); and her contributions are HER if she leaves the school system, unlike the private sector where your social security taxes aren't yours (basically she has a semi-privatized social security plan, which isn't good enough for the rest of us, but good enough for public teachers, the irony of which is not lost on me)

But at the same time, until she gets close to retirement age, we have not idea what her benefit will be, since its based on number of years in the school system and highest annual earnings. There is a 50 page booklet that outlines what her benefit will be, but its not easy to follow, and I have a degree in finance.

While my 401k isn't set it stone either, at least I can calcuate today what my balance is, and apply an estimated growth rate to that balance. With her pension plan, there are a great many more variables, many of which are hard to estimate with any accuracy.

Of course, the pension plans and other post employment benefits other than pensions are not being fully funded by the states, which is pretty scary considering many of these benefits are in the state constitution, meaning lawmakers eventually will need to modify the constitution to reneg on a promise made to public employees, or drastically raise taxes to fund public employee's promised benifits.

I interned at standard and poors (it was back in 2004ish) and did some research on an upcoming, at the time, accounting rule change (GASB 45) and I can only imagine the situation has gotten worse. The accounting for it can be pretty generous, in terms of amortizing unfunded liabilities over 4 decades.

http://latrobefinancialmanagement.com/Research/Pensions/Risi...

http://www.nasra.org/resources/medical/SandPOPEB0711.pdf

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869043 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/25/2012 1:12 PM
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Yeah, they treat their employees really well.

If she was treated so poorly by her previous location, why did she want to continue with working at Walmart when she and her husband moved?

What you've described is some poor management of transfer/paperwork - most companies with tens of thousands of employees have some employees who aren't top of their game - but also staffing issues during a retailer's busiest time. If this were all recent, the manager at the store in your hometown might have already hired additional staff for the holiday season, and might not need the extra person who is now moving into the area. If one of the recently hired were hired on not just for the holiday season, should they get booted out of their job because your DIL moved to the area? For most companies - whether retail or otherwise - transfers are usually dependent on the staffing needs of the location one is moving to - and it sounds like this location doesn't need additional long-term associates at the present time.

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869044 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/25/2012 1:23 PM
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While my 401k isn't set it stone either, at least I can calcuate today what my balance is, and apply an estimated growth rate to that balance. With her pension plan, there are a great many more variables, many of which are hard to estimate with any accuracy.

Part of the issue when teacher versus private sector is compared is the "tenure"/job security issue. A lot of people in the private sector today have faced at least one layoff - some even more.

I have a friend who just completed her MBA - so in the other person's post about "advanced degrees mean higher salaries" one would think she would be making more money. Well for the past few years she's been working for a consulting/staffing company and the client position she was placed at was eliminated last month. Lucky they were able to find another for her, but it was at a lower rate so she had to take a steep paycut in order to not be laid off. I know she's already been through 1 layoff 10+ years ago, as we both worked for the same telecom and both got laid off at different points during multiple rounds of downsizing.

I don't know what happens with tenured teachers if there's a school closing in their area (does the system have to place the teacher someplace else?). But nowadays in the private sector it's normal for people to face at least 1 layoff where a career has ups and downs salary/position wise instead of a steady upward slope. And if you face multiple layoffs that can really hit someone's e-fund where they might be forced to tap retirement savings for living expenses. I just think people in professions with job security don't realize how job insecure most employees are nowadays.

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Author: 2gifts Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869046 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/25/2012 2:10 PM
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You really think that's all most teachers work?

Nope, but I'm really tired of teachers insisting that they work much harder than the rest of the world. People in private industry work just as hard, and work as many if not more hours. The lament tends to be that teachers are underpaid for the work that they do, and I disagree with that sentiment.

People in the private sector may make more salary, but they work more days.

Let's just do some simple math. Let's assume that teachers work the same number of hours per day as an average worker in the private sector, so that eliminates the delta between the contractual hours (6 1/2 vs. 8 hour days). Starting teachers in MA make around $43k, but reach something like $80k after about 10 years, so let's just use $60k per year as an average salary. That works out to $320/day based on a 187 day work year. If they worked the same 250 days that the private sector works, they would be making $80k annually. Instead, they get the summers off where they can choose to get another job, take classes, spend time with their children, go golfing, or whatever they choose.

I don't find this salary to be too little when compared with the private sector and annualizing what they'd make to do some sort of apples to apples comparison.

They chose their career, and with it, they know the salary to be expected as well as the working conditions. They also get a significant amount of job security since jobs are eliminated based on seniority and not performance, so once they've been in a school system for a few years, they are fairly safe in terms of having an income, which is not true in the private sector.

I'm tired of what I consider whining on the part of teachers and just do not think they have it as bad as they would have us believe. And I do believe that they are fairly compensated.

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Author: jrdown Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869055 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/25/2012 6:12 PM
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I must agree with 2gifts. Both of my parents were public school teachers and the hours (at school) were as she described. My dad would teacher summer school, paint schools and do cleanup or work for the gas company or other assorted jobs. My mom taught piano year round except for holidays and vacations.

My dad chose to have his yearly salary taken over 11 months instead of 9 so there was a smaller amount monthly but it was consistent. He gets a very nice pension plus four "bonus" monetary amounts and that averages about $3k and then he has social security. He retired 28 years ago (at 61) and has no complaints.


Robyn

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869060 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/25/2012 8:29 PM
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Starting teachers in MA make around $43k, but reach something like $80k after about 10 years, so let's just use $60k per year as an average salary.


Teacher attrition rates. . .



46% of all new teachers in the United States leave the profession within five years from http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/03/08/high-teacher...


With almost half leaving before reaching 5 years, basing an average on the 10 year rate would seem a little high.

Ishtar

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869080 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/26/2012 11:51 AM
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when I shop at WalMart--am I supporting sweatshop-like Chinese jobs and low American wages?

Although I'm not much of a shopper, when I do need to buy something I try to go to Walmart when possible. My sense of ethics is satisfied by supporting jobs and wages.

xtn

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869081 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/26/2012 12:12 PM
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In the private sector, someone with 14 years of experience and a post graduate degree would earn far more.

Not necessarily. With layoffs in different industries, it's very possible the person in the private sector wouldn't be making >$90,000 if they've had setbacks in their career - such as having to take a paycut after a layoff.

Plus the private sector person most likely isn't pension eligible, can't stay in a company healthcare plan once they retire, and doesn't get 3 months of vacation time.


I'm in the private sector. I've got 24 years experience. I work 60hrs a week. I work all year long. I'm funding my own retirement. I make a pretty fair chunk less than $90K. Your dang overpaid teachers can shut their whining traps.

xtn

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869105 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/26/2012 5:40 PM
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If she was treated so poorly by her previous location, why did she want to continue with working at Walmart when she and her husband moved?

Because a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush when you are living in a depressed area of 18,000 people and 10% unemployment. The hours she was working in their previous town worked for her because of the hours her husband works. Between them, they were able to not have to have a daycare bill.


If one of the recently hired were hired on not just for the holiday season, should they get booted out of their job because your DIL moved to the area?

Again, when she approached management about making the transfer, all they had to say was "sorry, they don't have any full time positions there" and she would have spent her final days in the old town trying to find a better job in the new town.

The point is moot anyway, as she finally threw up her hands in frustration and is looking for a full time job in the new town. With lower unemployment and family connections there, it looks like she'll be working for someone else before the end of next month.

LWW

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Author: synchronicityII Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869109 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/26/2012 10:02 PM
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I'm in the private sector. I've got 24 years experience. I work 60hrs a week. I work all year long. I'm funding my own retirement. I make a pretty fair chunk less than $90K. Your dang overpaid teachers can shut their whining traps.

Sounds like you should quit your job and become a teacher then! Why, with so many of them leaving the profession in under five years, there's LOTS of opportunities for you to swoop in and start living off that sweet sweet teacher compensation gravy train!

-synchronicity

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Author: LOTROQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869114 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/27/2012 12:37 AM
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I'm in the private sector. I've got 24 years experience. I work 60hrs a week. I work all year long. I'm funding my own retirement. I make a pretty fair chunk less than $90K.

With your sparkling personality, I highly doubt you would be able to deal with a room full of children every day and not get fired by the end of the first term.

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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869167 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/28/2012 2:26 PM
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I'm in the private sector. I've got 24 years experience. I work 60hrs a week. I work all year long. I'm funding my own retirement. I make a pretty fair chunk less than $90K.

With your sparkling personality, I highly doubt you would be able to deal with a room full of children every day and not get fired by the end of the first term.

Tell that to my kids' scout den, my kids' chess club and my kids' sports teams. I could use a nap. You know one of us has made a generalized financial comparison, and the other has posted a direct, personal insult. Which of us has the better personality?

xtn

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869183 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/28/2012 3:50 PM
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Which of us has the better personality?

Do we have to answer right away? I need to ponder that question.

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Author: solesister Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869215 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/29/2012 9:57 PM
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I wouldn't be caught dead in a big-box store on Black Friday, or any store, really, on Thanksgiving, except maybe if people were coming over and I was outta milk for the coffee.

Having said that, I sometimes wonder if people focus on Walmart because of their labor practices or because they appeal to a clientele that's less than chic. I'm not sticking up for Walmart, especially, but you can find cheap clothes made in third-world sweatshops in just about every store in the country, not to mention overworked sales personnel who have been bullied into working on holidays, often with the threat of losing their jobs.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 869216 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 11/29/2012 10:55 PM
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but you can find cheap clothes made in third-world sweatshops in just about every store in the country, not to mention overworked sales personnel who have been bullied into working on holidays, often with the threat of losing their jobs.

or management having to work all holidays because they don't receive holiday pay.

or having to work when ill

or any number of other reasons that make working retail unpleasant

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Author: ataloss Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870167 of 886533
Subject: Re: Ethics and LBYM Date: 1/5/2013 7:00 AM
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or any number of other reasons that make working retail unpleasant

******

hence my advice to young people, stay in school and get an education. My advice to not young people is similar

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