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Author: notehound Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 743719  
Subject: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/7/2012 9:45 PM
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Tonight I was on the phone with my sister (who lives in Michigan), and we happened to discuss the recent noticeable proliferation of EBT (food stamp) purchasers shopping in our respective upscale supermarkets.

I suggested that, perhaps, the expansion of use of the EBT program might be related to certain "public service" television ads I have seen of late - cheerfully encouraging people to apply for benefits offered by the Dept. of Agriculture to "improve American nutrition."

I have no idea how much of such Federal program spending represents borrowed funds, but one might suspect the amount is more than negligible (even if it is dwarfed by military and Medicare spending).

My sister mentioned to me that an upper-middle-class co-worker of hers, who is working to help pay for her daughter's $35,000 per year college tuition, recently disclosed that her daughter came home from campus recently announcing that she was planning to apply for her very own EBT card, since "everyone else is doing it." The mother, who prides herself on her ability to provide for her family, was appalled and instructed her daughter not to apply, as it would be morally wrong - and it would embarrass the entire family.

Although I am supportive of student aid, including Pell Grants, student loans (which I personally believe should be dischargeable in bankruptcy under certain conditions) and work-study programs, I am not sure that it is entirely in the best interest of the taxpayer to be encouraging non-working (or even working) students to become dependent upon the government for their daily bread.

It seems to me that the "solution" to feeding hungry middle-class students (whose parents are paying the equivalent cost of a new BMW every year for college tuition) just might be for the student to instead matriculate at a less expensive university or community college, and "investing" the money saved in food so the poor child doesn't starve to death while they intensely study for their chemistry exam.

I did a quick check online to see whether the US government is indeed encouraging students to apply for EBT cards while they are enrolled - and lo & behold, it appears that my sister's Michigan friend appears to have been telling the truth.

Here's an excerpt of an online description of such programs published about 6 months ago:

Portland State University devotes a page on its Web site to explaining the ease with which students can receive benefits, along with instructions on how to apply. The school says food stamps are not charity but rather a benefit all honest taxpaying citizens can afford. The U.S. Department of Agriculture renamed food stamps the Supplemental Nutrition and Assistance Program (SNAP) in 2008, instituted electronic debit cards instead of coupons, and began an aggressive push to expand eligibility. This is from the school’s site:

Here are some additional SNAP facts:
• Over half of all U.S. citizens will use SNAP at least once during their lifetime.
• SNAP is not a charity. As a taxpayer, you are paying into this program and, when needed, you can reap the benefits.
• There are enough SNAP dollars for everyone that needs them. As a matter of fact, about 20 percent of Oregonians who are eligible for SNAP do not apply.
• Students receiving SNAP can defer their student loans while they are receiving benefits.
• Applying for SNAP is easy. In most cases, you will not have to apply more than once a year.


Traditionally food stamps are for the working poor and single parents, but colleges are trying to make it as easy as possible for students to obtain federal assistance, no matter their socio-economic background.


http://dailycaller.com/2010/03/27/universities-encourage-stu...

This "revelation" leads me to four questions that have relevance to our current ballooning debt and its obvious macroeconomic implications:

1. Is it wise to encourage young, impressionable college students to "work the system" to obtain government benefits that are basically replacing the support that students and their parents have in the past earned and provided for themselves?

2. Is it wise to intentionally advertise and expand "entitlement" programs from poor to middle-class and even upper-middle class scions at a time when the government is already spending at least twice the amount of its annual tax revenues?

3. Is it wise for the Federal Reserve and other buyers of US Treasuries to continue to fund (at nearly 0% interest) the sort of government borrowing it takes to fund entitlement programs the government is intentionally expanding despite lack of the funds to pay for them?

4. Is this going to end well?

I think I already know the answer to question 4. The answer is "no."

:-o


-Cross-post from METaR:

http://boards.fool.com/expanding-entitlements-to-college-kid...
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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653693 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/7/2012 11:26 PM
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Portland State University devotes a page on its Web site to explaining the ease with which students can receive benefits, along with instructions on how to apply. The school says food stamps are not charity but rather a benefit all honest taxpaying citizens can afford.

All honest homeowners who have an extra bedroom can afford to lodge a student in it, thus saving that student the cost of accommodations. When will the government realize what a huge resource it's leaving untapped?

--fleg

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Author: tjscott0 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653748 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/8/2012 8:49 AM
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This is not new. Some college students have been utilizing the food stamp program since the 1970's. I know this from personal knowledge when i was @ university.

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Author: notehound Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653751 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/8/2012 9:15 AM
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Some college students have been utilizing the food stamp program since the 1970's. I know this from personal knowledge when i was @ university.

The main concern I have is that the program may be being "promoted" among kids whose parents have plenty of money to see that they don't starve - and that affluent, high-tuition kids are treating the cards as bonus accessories - because "everyone is doing it."

That's just wasting taxpayer money.

If "household income" (including parents) must be considered in order to qualify for financial aid at university, it seems that "household income" (including parents) should be considered in order to qualify for public support such as food stamps. N'est-ce pas juste?

But hey - maybe I'm just old-fashioned.

;-)

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Author: tjscott0 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653754 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/8/2012 9:56 AM
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That's just wasting taxpayer money.

If "household income" (including parents) must be considered in order to qualify for financial aid at university, it seems that "household income" (including parents) should be considered in order to qualify for public support such as food stamps. N'est-ce pas juste?

But hey - maybe I'm just old-fashioned.


So you're taking a stand based on principle. OK I can agree with that. There prolly many here that would feel that if its legal; why not take advantage of the loop hole. Sorta like the transferring of parent's assets to stick medicaid with parents nursing home costs. I found I was in the minority that subject.
http://boards.fool.com/poll-shedding-assets-for-medicaid-cov...

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653762 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/8/2012 10:08 AM
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The main concern I have is that the program may be being "promoted" among kids whose parents have plenty of money to see that they don't starve - and that affluent, high-tuition kids are treating the cards as bonus accessories - because "everyone is doing it."
-------------------------------------------------
The stigma is gone, Cloward & Piven will collapse the whole thing eventually. My cousin was talking on Facebook about how their kids got subsidized school lunches. They aren't rich, but they're definitely not poor, not by a longshot. Little by little they're handing out perks which will make it more painful when they're taken away, which will make it easier for the perk promisers to get elected, and that's the goal. I do not see this ending well, and i'm not just talking about school lunches and food stamps, this election has made it perfectly clear to me that people want the goods.

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Author: tjscott0 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653772 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/8/2012 10:29 AM
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it perfectly clear to me that people want the goods.

And not just the people; corporations want their place at the federal gov't trough. Agricultural subsidies come to mind readily. Most of that bennie goes to large corporate ag firms.

I kinda wish sequestration happens so that the meat ax is taken to all programs. I suspect will simply raise the debt ceiling instead. Kick that can down the road!

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653781 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/8/2012 10:57 AM
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All honest homeowners who have an extra bedroom can afford to lodge a student in it, thus saving that student the cost of accommodations. When will the government realize what a huge resource it's leaving untapped?

--fleg


I think that is covered by the 3rd Amendment to the Constitution. O, wait, never mind, that piece of paper seems to be irrelevant in DC.

JLC

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653784 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/8/2012 11:03 AM
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"Some college students have been utilizing the food stamp program since the 1970's. I know this from personal knowledge when i was @ university."
------------------------
"The main concern I have is that the program may be being "promoted" among kids whose parents have plenty of money to see that they don't starve - and that affluent, high-tuition kids are treating the cards as bonus accessories - because "everyone is doing it." - notehound

---------------------------


I had no connection to my father when I was in college and my mother was dead. We were estranged. I didn't see or talk to him for years after I left home.

I killed and butchered animals and ate them when I was in college. Lots of them.

Art

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653802 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/8/2012 12:02 PM
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All honest homeowners who have an extra bedroom can afford to lodge a student in it, thus saving that student the cost of accommodations. When will the government realize what a huge resource it's leaving untapped?

I think that is covered by the 3rd Amendment to the Constitution.


No, it's only covered if the student is enrolled in ROTC:

Third Amendment

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
__________________

--fleg

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653867 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/8/2012 4:10 PM
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All honest homeowners who have an extra bedroom can afford to lodge a student in it, thus saving that student the cost of accommodations. When will the government realize what a huge resource it's leaving untapped?

--fleg

I think that is covered by the 3rd Amendment to the Constitution. O, wait, never mind, that piece of paper seems to be irrelevant in DC.


Besides which, the 3rd Amendment only talks about the quartering of troops. Nothing about bureacrats, welfare leeches, etc. Just troops.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653870 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/8/2012 4:20 PM
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fleg:"All honest homeowners who have an extra bedroom can afford to lodge a student in it, thus saving that student the cost of accommodations. When will the government realize what a huge resource it's leaving untapped?"

Wait until they start moving in 'families' into 'the unused parts' of many suburban housing. Got a 4 bedroom but only 2 people living there? Great, you can house at least 3 or 4 folks in a family. No problem. There are loads of folks that need 'free government housing'. Oh, maybe the government will give you a $100 stipend for electricity and heat for that 'inconvenience' of housing them.

Just think how many unused bedrooms there are in America!...just think how many more 'undocumented' immigrants could flood into the country and live in folks 'spare' bedrooms and family rooms.

It's all part of the grand plan.....the US isn't dense enough to support mass transit in many suburbs. No problem. Just double or triple the housing density. Let folks turn their garages into apartments to rent, no matter what suburb they live in. Let them divide up houses into multi-family.....all those welfare weenies and queenies need places to live!

Oh...and in college towns? The town commissar will 'select' a student or two or three to help 'fill' your house to 'capacity' so it doesn't 'go to waste'.

It's your 'social responsibility' to 'help out' in a 'crisis'.



t.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653927 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/8/2012 6:54 PM
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Let folks turn their garages into apartments to rent, no matter what suburb they live in. Let them divide up houses into multi-family.....all those welfare weenies and queenies need places to live!

Let them?

Try valuing the property as if the conversion had already been done so they have to pay taxes on it, and counting the rental value as taxable income.

Whether or not any of it is actually happening.

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Author: notehound Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653954 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/8/2012 8:48 PM
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2828: "The stigma is gone, Cloward & Piven will collapse the whole thing eventually."

You are, as usual, not just correct but correct with a degree of accuracy that cannot be denied.

This election, perhaps more so than any other in America's past - proves that there are some political ideas and strategies that are capable of utterly destroying a society and hobbling an economy in short order. Nonetheless, the power of the Cloward - Piven Strategy cannot be denied. It has been expertly and relentlessly implemented by the political operatives and Washington bureaucrats - and the "benefits" have been lapped up and swallowed wholesale by a population brought up to demand instant gratification regardless of the cost imposed on others.

Cloward and Piven’s [thesis] is focused on forcing the Democratic Party, which in 1966 controlled the presidency and both houses of the United States Congress, to take federal action to help the poor. They stated that full enrollment of those eligible for welfare “would produce bureaucratic disruption in welfare agencies and fiscal disruption in local and state governments” that would “deepen existing divisions among elements in the big-city Democratic coalition: the remaining white middle class, the working-class ethnic groups and the growing minority poor. To avoid a further weakening of that historic coalition, a national Democratic administration would be constrained to advance a federal solution to poverty that would override local welfare failures, local class and racial conflicts and local revenue dilemmas.”[3] They wrote:

“The ultimate objective of this strategy—to wipe out poverty by establishing a guaranteed annual income — will be questioned by some. Because the ideal of individual social and economic mobility has deep roots, even activists seem reluctant to call for national programs to eliminate poverty by the outright redistribution of income."

Michael Reisch and Janice Andrews wrote that Cloward and Piven "proposed to create a crisis in the current welfare system – by exploiting the gap between welfare law and practice – that would ultimately bring about its collapse and replace it with a system of guaranteed annual income. They hoped to accomplish this end by informing the poor of their rights to welfare assistance, encouraging them to apply for benefits and, in effect, overloading an already overburdened bureaucracy."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy

Well, those of use whose pockets are being picked can take comfort in the thought that good old Uncle Ben Bernanke is picking up the tab by purchasing literally $$ Trillions in Treasury Bonds being issued to fund the Cloward-Piven Strategy.

Since fiat currency can be conjured at will with the CTRL+P command - and since interest rates will be held at an artificially-imposed virtual 0% for the remainder of our natural lives, it is unlikely that the piper will ever have to be paid...

- at least in theory.

Just put it on the "No Interest Due" credit card.

;-)

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 653979 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/8/2012 9:49 PM
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telegraph wrote: Wait until they start moving in 'families' into 'the unused parts' of many suburban housing. Got a 4 bedroom but only 2 people living there? Great, you can house at least 3 or 4 folks in a family. No problem. There are loads of folks that need 'free government housing'.

Reminds me of the scene from Doctor Zhivago when Yuri returns, after being forced to supply medical services, to the Gromeko mansion to find it overtaken by families of the new proletariat.

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Author: andrew61 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 654274 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/9/2012 11:00 PM
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Wait until they start moving in 'families' into 'the unused parts' of many suburban housing. Got a 4 bedroom but only 2 people living there? Great, you can house at least 3 or 4 folks in a family. No problem. There are loads of folks that need 'free government housing'. Oh, maybe the government will give you a $100 stipend for electricity and heat for that 'inconvenience' of housing them.

Just think how many unused bedrooms there are in America!...just think how many more 'undocumented' immigrants could flood into the country and live in folks 'spare' bedrooms and family rooms.

It's all part of the grand plan.....the US isn't dense enough to support mass transit in many suburbs. No problem. Just double or triple the housing density. Let folks turn their garages into apartments to rent, no matter what suburb they live in. Let them divide up houses into multi-family.....all those welfare weenies and queenies need places to live!

Oh...and in college towns? The town commissar will 'select' a student or two or three to help 'fill' your house to 'capacity' so it doesn't 'go to waste'.

It's your 'social responsibility' to 'help out' in a 'crisis'.



Yet another advantage to already living in a small apartment, as I do. They'll probably leave me alone.

This thread is making me think of the movie Dr. Zhivago.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 654276 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/9/2012 11:20 PM
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"This thread is making me think of the movie Dr. Zhivago."

In Germany, the elites forced out the Jews...then moved into their confiscated homes and lived in them...rent free...for the rest of the war or until they were bombed to smithereens, whichever occurred first.


IN many other places, folks were pushed out of large apartments and they were given to party members.....rent free......

We're not too far from that.


Soon they'll be a 'housing crisis'......

t.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 654277 of 743719
Subject: Re: Expanding Entitlements to College Kids Date: 11/9/2012 11:54 PM
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andrew wrote: This thread is making me think of the movie Dr. Zhivago.

Me, too! Remember the scene where Yuri returns to the Gromenko mansion to find it overrun with the new proletariat? I can't find the scene anywhere on YouTube.

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