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Author: jjbklb Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 23747  
Subject: Extreme Endurance Training Cardiomyopathy Date: 12/12/2012 7:26 AM
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Phidippides Cardiomyopathy: Extreme Endurance Training Finally Being Recongized


In one study, approximately 12 per cent of apparently healthy marathon runners showed evidence for patchy myocardial scarring, and the coronary heart disease event rate during a two-year follow up was significantly higher in marathon runners than in runners not doing marathons .. [i]t had been known that elite-level athletes commonly develop abnormal electrocardiogram readings.

Because endurance sports call for a sustained increase in cardiac output for several hours, the heart is put into a state of volume overload. It has been shown that approximately one-third of marathon runners experience dilation of the right atrium and ventricle, have elevations of cardiac troponin and natriuretic peptides, and in a smaller fraction later develop small patches of cardiac fibrosis that are the likely substrate for ventricular tachyarrhythmias and sudden death. Cardiac magnetic resonance imaging is emerging as the diagnostic test of choice for this condition.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22222888
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Author: Beerio Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23282 of 23747
Subject: Re: Extreme Endurance Training Cardiomyopathy Date: 12/17/2012 8:02 AM
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That sounds really scary. What does it say in English?

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Author: jjbklb Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23283 of 23747
Subject: Re: Extreme Endurance Training Cardiomyopathy Date: 12/17/2012 11:39 AM
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As the indian wise-man said,-



"you runum too far,you croakum big time

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Author: RodimusPrime Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23285 of 23747
Subject: Re: Extreme Endurance Training Cardiomyopathy Date: 12/18/2012 5:55 PM
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Can someone who read the article please summarize it for me? What I can tell is that they found a correlation between the mortality of marathon runners and this cardiomyopathy condition. But they glossed over all differences in training and intensity and biological factors... saying only that some people are "predisposed" to the condition.

Good to hear that the science is beginning to uncover these risks, though.

--Rod

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Author: jjbklb Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23286 of 23747
Subject: Re: Extreme Endurance Training Cardiomyopathy Date: 12/22/2012 8:16 AM
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According to Dr.Dennis in RW ,Pheidippides Cardiomyopathy shows up as an "unspecified cardiomyopathy" on autopsy reports.Some people who engage in chronic endurance training may develop this abnormal shaping of the heart,making it susceptible to cardiac arrhythmia,which can cause sudden death.

He recommends cardiac testing (EKG & cardiac echo)each year to look out for those type changes.

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23287 of 23747
Subject: Re: Extreme Endurance Training Cardiomyopathy Date: 12/22/2012 9:16 AM
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According to Dr.Dennis in RW ,Pheidippides Cardiomyopathy shows up as an "unspecified cardiomyopathy" on autopsy reports.Some people who engage in chronic endurance training may develop this abnormal shaping of the heart,making it susceptible to cardiac arrhythmia,which can cause sudden death.

I think the operative phrase is "in some people" or "in those who're predisposed"

Although, if you Google this "cardiomyopathy", you'll see page after page come up which could lead you to believe that it's a well recognised and accepted condition ..... as opposed to "Science By Press Release" and another example of journalists getting wind of a "maybe" and running with it (so to speak) as a definite. Journalists do love themselves a nice health scare story and some research facilities are only too happy to provide a sensational press release.

A good many examples of "sudden cardiac death" associated with sport.....usually endurance events......are the result of previously undiagnosed cardiac anomolies. However, although the popular press likes to make a lot of noise when these trgedies happen, they're actually very rare events and most experts in the field don't seem to be recommending aggresive and extensive testing (which is what you'd need).......unless they want a bit o' kudos for describing something novel, that is.

Vivienne

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Author: discurro Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23288 of 23747
Subject: Re: Extreme Endurance Training Cardiomyopathy Date: 12/22/2012 9:35 AM
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A good many examples of "sudden cardiac death" associated with sport.....usually endurance events......are the result of previously undiagnosed cardiac anomolies. However, although the popular press likes to make a lot of noise when these trgedies happen, they're actually very rare events and most experts in the field don't seem to be recommending aggresive and extensive testing (which is what you'd need).......unless they want a bit o' kudos for describing something novel, that is.

Or unless they run a clinic that does this sort of testing, and they need some engine work on their mercedes.

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23289 of 23747
Subject: Re: Extreme Endurance Training Cardiomyopathy Date: 12/23/2012 5:44 AM
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To shed more dark on an already confusing subject, here's an interesting read about exercise levels, exertion and "exhaustion" Granted it's aimed at elite cyclists but I use a lot of the training principles from this web site in my IDC classes......and physiology is physiolgy. A fair bit of what goes on "under the hood" is independant of whether the body's runing, riding, swimming, cross country skiiing etc.....

http://www.flammerouge.je/content/3_factsheets/constant/perc...

There's a lot of content, for sure, but if you read it through, you'll see mention of the hypothesis that there's an element of flexibility where fatigue and exhasution is concerned.....a bodily system designed to protect us from hammering ourselves to death in the way that these studies imply "some" athletes are doing. Tim Noakes calls it the Central Governer hypothesis (and he firmly believes it) His "Lore of Running" is a great read for anyone who wants to understand muscle physiology and the various and redundant models that've been propsed to explain fatigue etc. (don't bother if you want to hang onto the myth of the anaerobic threshold and lactic acid build up causes the burn, mind)

Anyway, sure beats fretting about one study that may be irrelevant to decision making for 99.999% of the running population

Vivienne

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Author: jjbklb Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23290 of 23747
Subject: Re: Extreme Endurance Training Cardiomyopathy Date: 12/23/2012 1:28 PM
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When I did the NY Marathon several years ago,a man next to me in the finish chute collapsed & died on the way to the hospital.The Times said it was an unknown cardiomyopathy.

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23291 of 23747
Subject: Re: Extreme Endurance Training Cardiomyopathy Date: 12/23/2012 3:55 PM
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The Times said it was an unknown cardiomyopathy.

The word to focus on being *unknown*

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23292 of 23747
Subject: Re: Extreme Endurance Training Cardiomyopathy Date: 12/24/2012 6:00 AM
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I'm not trying to diminish the impact of folk dying during a sporting event but it really is very rare. The link provided in the original post is a perfect example. If you look to the side at the list of related citations in PubMed, and keep clicking on similar related citing in PubMed, you'll see a different picture.

That's the problem with being directed to *a* paper by some news report. I'm assuming this to be the case in this instance as the sort of banner headline associated with the link...

Phidippides Cardiomyopathy: Extreme Endurance Training Finally Being Recongized


In one study, approximately 12 per cent of apparently healthy marathon runners showed evidence for patchy myocardial scarring, and the coronary heart disease event rate during a two-year follow up was significantly higher in marathon runners than in runners not doing marathons .. [i]t had been known that elite-level athletes commonly develop abnormal electrocardiogram readings.
...

isn't exactly the sort of editorial style of a scientific publication.

That's not to say that this particular finding is unimportant in the grand scheme of information building among, say, cardiologists..... folk who have basic knowledge, skill and expertise in the actual area. That's why it got publish in Clinical Cardiology.....so that others in the field can critique it in an informed way. That's how the Scientific Method is supposed to work.....little bits and pieces to put together in a "Now that's odd!" sort of way rather than "Eureka!! First time ever seen!!" paradigm shifting sensation that the popular press loves so much.

What actually happens at some of these research institutions is tht they have a press office whose job it is to make oftentimes mundane research results (which is what they usually are) look sexy and BIG.....grants often depend on such noise.....so they generate this sort of story and release it to newswire services. That's where the journalists get their info and regurgitate it as is. That's why you see almost the same cut-and-paste type descriptioon is you come across the story in multiple places.

It's a phenom that's even recognised by "science writers" themselves.....sort of..

http://boards.fool.com/the-more-things-change-30410861.aspx

Vivienne

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