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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1951316  
Subject: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 9:09 PM
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Magic- (aside from the craft plied by those who are skilled in illusions and sleight of hand).....

.... is the belief that the powers of the universe can be enlisted to accomplish one's purposes.

Faith- is the lifelong attempt to bring one's own life into harmony with the divine purpose.

The two are opposites.

The prayers of faith are along the lines of "not my will, but thine be done". Google "Prayer of St. Francis" if you want to see a wonderful prayer of faith.

The prayer of magic is "Gimme, gimme, gimme!", or, as St. Janis of Joplin put it: "O Lord, won't you buy me.. a Mercedes Benz"
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Author: Rightime Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843215 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 9:11 PM
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Faith and Magic



Faith in a God of Magic is no different than a faith in a God of Jesus.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843219 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 9:33 PM
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Faith in a God of Magic is no different than a faith in a God of Jesus.

I see the difference every day in the way people live their lives.

You can either seek to turn the divine to do your will. (magic)

Or you can seek to bring your own life into accord with the divine will. (faith)

There is a big difference.

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Author: Rightime Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843220 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 9:46 PM
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There is a big difference.


Really?



I see the difference every day in the way people live their lives.

Faith in a God of Voodoo to control a population is no different than the faith in a God of Jesus to control centuries of european progress. Dostoyevsky’s Grand Inquisitor well points out that the Church, entrusted with faith, used that “magic” to control centuries of lives.

“Build your penitentiary
We build your school
Brainwash education to make us the fools
Hate is your reward for our love
Telling us of your God above”
BOB MARLEY -

You amy see an anecdotally life, but there are millennia to the contrary.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843221 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 9:47 PM
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You can either seek to turn the divine to do your will. (magic)

Or you can seek to bring your own life into accord with the divine will. (faith)

There is a big difference.

---------


Or, you can stand tall like a man and face reality.

AM

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843222 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 9:50 PM
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Or, you can stand tall like a man and face reality.

That's exactly what faith in God does.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843225 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 9:56 PM
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Or, you can stand tall like a man and face reality.

That's exactly what faith in God does.

----------


That's exactly what faith in God does NOT do.
Faith in things unknown and unproven is a long way from facing the reality of this world and life. Stand on your own two feet. There is no God to lean on. Be a man.

AM

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843227 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 9:56 PM
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With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
--Lincoln


"as God gives us to see the right"

Peter

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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843229 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 9:58 PM
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"That's exactly what faith in God does NOT do.
Faith in things unknown and unproven is a long way from facing the reality of this world and life. Stand on your own two feet. There is no God to lean on. Be a man.

AM "

Spoken like a true atheist.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843230 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 9:58 PM
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That's exactly what faith in God does NOT do.
Faith in things unknown and unproven is a long way from facing the reality of this world and life. Stand on your own two feet. There is no God to lean on. Be a man.


AngelMay... your words indicate that you haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843232 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 9:59 PM
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With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
--Lincoln


Yes

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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843234 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 10:00 PM
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"AngelMay... your words indicate that you haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about.
"

Amen, Bill

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843235 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 10:05 PM
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Spoken like a true atheist.

------


Why thank you very much.
You must be a christian.

AM

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Author: Rightime Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843237 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 10:15 PM
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your words indicate that you haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about.



Just because you have a faith in the God of Jesus doesn't mean you must persecute anyone that disagrees; that of course is the wool you are dyed in.

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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843238 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 10:19 PM
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"Just because you have a faith in the God of Jesus doesn't mean you must persecute anyone that disagrees; that of course is the wool you are dyed in. "

Bill didn't persecute, He stated a fact.

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Author: ramsfanray Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843239 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 10:28 PM
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So that fact that I go to work every day to feed, clothe, and shelter my family doesn't make me a man? I have to agree with your faith to get that designation.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843240 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 10:33 PM
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Just because you have a faith in the God of Jesus doesn't mean you must persecute anyone that disagrees; that of course is the wool you are dyed in.

Let's be clear here, Rightime.

Someone asked earlier what the difference was between faith and magic.

I gave the definitions which indicate the difference.

I did not make a prescription for your life, or for Angel May's, or for anyone's.

I know plenty of atheists who are adults, intelligent, and good friends of mine. I do not try to convince them that my way is best. And they do not try to convince me that their way is best.... primarily because both of us know that we have each found ways of life that are authentic and valuable.

But there are some atheists, and some religious folks too... who just cannot stand the thought of anyone thinking differently than they do.

As you and Angel May have proven in this thread.

I have not tried to convert you. I have not questioned your atheism.

But for some reason, you and Angel May view people of faith as affronts to decency and logic. Both of you have insulted and patronized me.

And neither of you displays any understanding of faith beyond the few cliches you've picked up from reading Dawkins, Hitchens, or frequenting the atheist board. Neither of you speaks to the reality of faith or church that I know and have lived in for the past many decades.

Your caricatures are just that... caricatures.

I have no desire to convert you, baptize you, save your soul or any other thing that has more to do with your fantasies than it does with anything I would intend or actually do.

Please treat me as a person whose views are hard won and the product of a life lived to the best of my ability. I will treat you the same.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843241 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 10:37 PM
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So that fact that I go to work every day to feed, clothe, and shelter my family doesn't make me a man? I have to agree with your faith to get that designation.

Nope. I neither said nor intended that.

But Angel May said that you had to put aside your faith in order to become a man.

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Author: ramsfanray Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843243 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 10:52 PM
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Sorry, Bill. My comments were directed towards AngelMay. It's her faith that I apparently have to agree with before I can be considered a man.

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Author: Rightime Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843244 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 10:52 PM
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I have no desire to convert you, baptize you, save your soul or any other thing that has more to do with your fantasies than it does with anything I would intend or actually do.

Please treat me as a person whose views are hard won and the product of a life lived to the best of my ability. I will treat you the same.



No, you just call people Neanderthal if they don't see a need to believe in the God of Jesus. As I said, it's the wool you are dyed in. After millennia of institutional religious domination, you have the gall to say that "Your Faith" presents a particular behavior that sets it apart from all faith (whether faith in voodoo or Jesus).

I say Voodoo has a better track record than Christianity when it comes to behavior.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843246 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 10:55 PM
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No, you just call people Neanderthal if they don't see a need to believe in the God of Jesus.

I've never done that, Rightime.

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Author: Rightime Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843247 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 10:58 PM
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I've never done that, Rightime.



Sure that sill doesn't answer the rebuke that you have the gall to say that "Your Faith" presents a particular behavior that sets it apart from all faith (whether faith in voodoo or Jesus).

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843249 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 11:04 PM
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Sure that sill doesn't answer the rebuke that you have the gall to say that "Your Faith" presents a particular behavior that sets it apart from all faith (whether faith in voodoo or Jesus).

Please link the post where I referred to "faith in Jesus".

I was careful to simply say "faith"... and by that, I mean a faith in some higher power. It could be the God of Jesus, the God of Moses, the God of Mohammed, the higher power of Alcoholics Anonymous, or the (not)God of Guatama Buddha.

It's a way of life, not a set of propositions.

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Author: Rightime Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843250 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 11:09 PM
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Faith in a God of Magic is no different than a faith in a God of Jesus.

I see the difference every day in the way people live their lives.

You can either seek to turn the divine to do your will. (magic)

Or you can seek to bring your own life into accord with the divine will. (faith)

There is a big difference.



Yup, you are correct on that. I stand corrected. I believe sin is ubiquitous to human nature, I fall prey to that.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843252 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 11:11 PM
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I believe sin is ubiquitous to human nature,

Me too.

I fall prey to that.

So do I.

Every day!

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843260 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 11:22 PM
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But there are some atheists, and some religious folks too... who just cannot stand the thought of anyone thinking differently than they do.

As you and Angel May have proven in this thread.

I have not tried to convert you. I have not questioned your atheism.

But for some reason, you and Angel May view people of faith as affronts to decency and logic. Both of you have insulted and patronized me.



I believe it was YOU who gave two options in your post. Neither of them had anything to do with reality. I merely mentioned a third option. Then *I* was told that I didn't know what I was talking about and was, generally, attacked.

I have no desire to convert you, either. But I do object to having things put into terms that only the religious can profit from. I do not need a god in order to face the world around me. I stand on my own feet - as well as I can. I depend on myself and my brain. I see the world for what it is. Not for what I wish it were.

I'm told that God is a "fact" yet am offered not a single shred of proof. Fine. I don't care. I'm not convinced.

Continue to attack me if you like. I remain an Atheist. I pay my taxes. I vote. I breathe. And most importantly, I think.

I'm sorry if you feel you have been insulted simply because I present a third option to life and living. However, I'm afraid you will have to get over it.

AM

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843272 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 11:36 PM
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I'm sorry if you feel you have been insulted simply because I present a third option to life and living.

You did much more than that, Angel May. Here is what you said:


That's exactly what faith in God does NOT do.
Faith in things unknown and unproven is a long way from facing the reality of this world and life. Stand on your own two feet. There is no God to lean on. Be a man.


I don't know where you come from, Angel May, but where I come from, that is simply a flat out insult.

I have not denied the legitimacy of your world view. But you have gone out of your way to deny mine.
+++

Here's something that may shed some light; I apologize for not being clear about it earlier....

In another thread, a poster asked me to share the difference between magic and faith. At first, I didn't want to do it, fearing that if I did, it would simply degenerate into a stupidfest... which it has.

But then I decided that the question was legitimate and deserved an answer... I was simply answering that question when I opened this thread. I was not seeking to change you, throw sand in your face or anything else... I was simply answering the question: What is the difference between faith and magic?

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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843273 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 11:37 PM
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Sorry Bill for getting you involved. My bad:-(

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843275 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 11:41 PM
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Sorry Bill for getting you involved. My bad:-(

You asked a legitimate question, NTL.

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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843278 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 11:46 PM
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I guess there is no way to talk about religion without someone taking an innocuous statement and get insulted by it.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843279 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 11:47 PM
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I don't know where you come from, Angel May, but where I come from, that is simply a flat out insult.



How is it an insult for me to say that believing in God is not facing the reality of life - but it's not an insult for you to say the opposite? Why do you assume that your feelings are more important than mine? Why do you assume that your beliefs are more valid than mine?

I did not insult you. Had I insulted you there would be no doubt whatsoever that I had. It would have been an in-your-face punch. I did no such thing. I merely rejected the claim that belief in God is facing reality or standing on your own feet. You don't have to believe that. But I have as much right to state it as you have to state the opposite.


Here's something that may shed some light; I apologize for not being clear about it earlier....

In another thread, a poster asked me to share the difference between magic and faith. At first, I didn't want to do it, fearing that if I did, it would simply degenerate into a stupidfest... which it has.

But then I decided that the question was legitimate and deserved an answer... I was simply answering that question when I opened this thread. I was not seeking to change you, throw sand in your face or anything else... I was simply answering the question: What is the difference between faith and magic?



I see. And I understand what you were doing. I just disagree with your answer. For me, there is no difference whatsoever between faith (in God) and magic. There is no such thing as magic - and even though there is such a thing as faith in God, it is the same as faith in magic.

Again, I'm not trying to insult you. I'm merely putting forth a different view. I'm not insulted by your different view and can see no reason why you should be insulted by mine.

AM

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843284 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 11:54 PM
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How is it an insult for me to say that believing in God is not facing the reality of life

You didn't simply say that, Angel May. You also attacked me personally. I have absolutely no problem with folks saying: "I don't have to believe in God in order to face the reality of life."

But that's not what you said. Instead, you made it about me... telling me to stand on my own feet and be a man.

That is an insult, because it completely discounts my experience and understanding.

I am not insulted by your view at all.

I am insulted, however, by your telling me to "stand on my own feet and be a man", as if I wasn't already doing that.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843285 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/8/2012 11:57 PM
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But that's not what you said. Instead, you made it about me... telling me to stand on my own feet and be a man.

That is an insult, because it completely discounts my experience and understanding.

I am not insulted by your view at all.

I am insulted, however, by your telling me to "stand on my own feet and be a man", as if I wasn't already doing that.




I was speaking generically.
However, it did apply to you under that umbrella.
So I am guilty as charged of saying what I said.
However, I still did not insult you.
If you took it as an insult, that is your problem to work through.
In my own opinion, if you are leaning on some supernatural being then you are not standing on your own two feet. And you are not facing reality.

I understand that you disagree with this opinion.
But I still did not insult you.


AM

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843290 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 12:29 AM
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"Magic- is the belief that the powers of the universe can be enlisted to accomplish one's purposes."

"Faith- is the lifelong attempt to bring one's own life into harmony with the divine purpose."

"The two are opposites."

---

Ah, I disagree. I've heard many prayers that results in a net gain for the one praying. I'm sure you've heard your share of self-serving prayers if you think about it.

I'd say that a belief in magic is the same as a belief in a magical being.

Your definition of faith causes me a bit of heartburn as well; Of course, divinity implies a magical being. Whose divine purpose? And the lifelong part? There are many who opt in and out during the course of a lifetime, but I digress.




"The prayers of faith are along the lines of "not my will, but thine be done". Google "Prayer of St. Francis" if you want to see a wonderful prayer of faith."

There are many examples of fine, wonderful prayers. But as I said before, many prayers are self-serving. Btw, everyone whose health has ever been prayed for has died or will die. Praying for someone in ill health to live is sometimes rather a selfish thing - we want to keep those folks we love around, right? So much for 'thine be done', eh?



"The prayer of magic is "Gimme, gimme, gimme!", or, as St. Janis of Joplin put it: "O Lord, won't you buy me.. a Mercedes Benz""

Most types of magic don't require prayer - only religion.

Please don't be offended. I mean to only express what I believe, and I respect anyone's' right to believe whatever they like - and I expect the same in kind. I just have to speak up when someone pretends it is scientific or factual. If you are not a person of faith, then faith and magic have no discernible difference. It is your faith (or lack thereof) that determines a difference. That is personal, and it doesn't work for others.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843294 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 12:48 AM
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Ah, I disagree. I've heard many prayers that results in a net gain for the one praying. I'm sure you've heard your share of self-serving prayers if you think about it.


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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843298 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 1:20 AM
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"Ah, I disagree. I've heard many prayers that results in a net gain for the one praying. I'm sure you've heard your share of self-serving prayers if you think about it."

Yes, that's a quote. And please God let me win the lottery.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843314 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 8:13 AM
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Yes, that's a quote. And please God let me win the lottery.

And that is not faith. It is viewing God as a magical Jini in the sky.

I can't remember the name of the preacher who said, 100 years ago.... "God is not a bellhop."

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843315 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 8:54 AM
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And that is not faith. It is viewing God as a magical Jini in the sky.

I can't remember the name of the preacher who said, 100 years ago.... "God is not a bellhop."
_______________

Pretty good one.

Although I do remember, a time or two, getting something I wished for.

When my husband and I were first married, I was wishing for a bike like the one I had as a child (the ones with the big fenders, a Schwinn).

We had recently bought an old farm house in Colorado.

When we went up into the loft of one of the old garage, which the roof was part of an old school house for that area, low and behold there was an old bike just like what I wanted. It wasn't blue like mine, but rusted, but there wasn't anything wrong with it. We blew up the tires with air, and down the dirt roads I went riding my "new" bike.

Don't remember asking God or for it, but I did get my wish.:)

I love when stuff like that happens.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843317 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 10:00 AM
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( Yes, that's a quote. And please God let me win the lottery.)

"And that is not faith. It is viewing God as a magical Jini in the sky."

By your hopeful definition, perhaps. But many people of faith 'believe' just this way - probably almost all are guilty of this kind of thinking at one time or another. Your faith is followed because, in the end, followers 'get' eternal salvation.

Thy will be done, as long as I get mine in the end. Ultimately, it is a pretty self-serving thing.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843343 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 11:28 AM
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" please God let me win the lottery."

And that is not faith. It is viewing God as a magical Jini in the sky.


Isn't it presumptuous to claim to know what faith is valid and what faith is invalid?

A hungry person prays for a crust of bread.

A frightened person prays for reassurance.

Most praying is bargaining for something.

"Do this and I'll do that, please."

AM's point rings true in comparing 2 of the ways of dealing a situation. One way places the onus of performance/satisfaction on the FSM of your choice, the other does not.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843350 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 11:55 AM
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Isn't it presumptuous to claim to know what faith is valid and what faith is invalid?

Oh, I don't know... The fact that I've been a spokesperson for a faith community that views faith as our response rather than our demand, might have something to do with actually speaking on a subject that I have made my living speaking on.... might have some bearing.

A hungry person prays for a crust of bread.

A frightened person prays for reassurance.


Tom Gillespie, former president of Princeton Theological Seminary put it this way:

When we pray the Lord's prayer

"Give us this day, our daily bread...."

We must recognize that we are praying that prayer with people everywhere.... and perhaps what we are called to do when we pray that prayer with them- is to realize that we are being called to become the answer to their prayer.

Most praying is bargaining for something.

"Do this and I'll do that, please."


I've been in countless arguments on this subject- usually with fundamentalists.

Just goes to show.... many (but not all) atheists are simply fundamentalists who got pissed off.

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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843351 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 11:58 AM
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"Just goes to show.... many (but not all) atheists are simply fundamentalists who got pissed off. "

Too funny Bill and true:-) rec

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843354 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 12:08 PM
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[ Isn't it presumptuous to claim to know what faith is valid and what faith is invalid? ]

Oh, I don't know... The fact that I've been a spokesperson for a faith community that views faith as our response rather than our demand, might have something to do with actually speaking on a subject that I have made my living speaking on.... might have some bearing.

---

So, you DO get to decide what faith is valid? Interesting. But that only applies to your particular flock, eh? The ones whose spokesperson you claim to be? Those of us outside of that faith, whether other faiths or none all, can't abide by your interpretations. You don't get to decide for everyone.

Faith is personal. Your faith community has within it huge variations in their own interpretations of what your religion means to them, and how it affects their lives. I'm sure you are well aware of this. Again, it is only having that faith that makes it different from magic. Without the faith, it all looks very much the same.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843365 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 12:49 PM
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So, you DO get to decide what faith is valid? Interesting. But that only applies to your particular flock, eh? The ones whose spokesperson you claim to be? Those of us outside of that faith, whether other faiths or none all, can't abide by your interpretations. You don't get to decide for everyone.

That's not only a misrepresentation of what I said. It's also a complete fabrication.

I don't "decide " anything. I am expected, however, to have an opinion, and I've given you mine.

And I do find it more than curious- that several atheists are presuming to know more about what constitutes faith than I do, not that they are defending that sort of faith, mind you. In fact, they reject it.

For some reason, they seem upset that the faith I describe does not fit the pattern that they have already rejected.

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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843367 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 1:09 PM
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"For some reason, they seem upset that the faith I describe does not fit the pattern that they have already rejected."

I suspect for atheists you have just torn down one of their rationalizations for being an atheist.

Why? Because, they have been so persistent and adamant in how they define faith as if without it their reason for being an atheist would disappear.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843379 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 2:08 PM
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"That's not only a misrepresentation of what I said. It's also a complete fabrication."

Sorry, I must have misunderstood. Did you not claim to be a spokesperson for your community of faith? You were asked if it was presumptuous to discount what I described as a prayer (one which I have heard people earnestly pray) as 'not faith'. Your answer was because you were that spokesperson, you had the ability to do so. That was your reason to be able to decide what I see as faith as 'not faith'. I didn't fabricate anything, and I don't see that I misrepresented what you said. But please feel free to explain, and if I truly misunderstood I will say I am sorry.

If it just your opinion, we just differ on that. People pray for things all the time that your definition of 'not faith' would meet. I daresay that they certainly believe that are people of faith.



"And I do find it more than curious- that several atheists are presuming to know more about what constitutes faith than I do, not that they are defending that sort of faith, mind you. In fact, they reject it."

I would not presume that you know any more about faith than any atheist does. Your statement implies that you think you know more than they. In my experience. atheists and agnostics are folks who have spent a great deal of time examining their spiritual beliefs, and giving a great deal of thought to how faith fits in to their lives. Perhaps a great deal more time than you and I have. It WOULD be presumptuous of you to think you are somehow better informed about spiritual matters.



"For some reason, they seem upset that the faith I describe does not fit the pattern that they have already rejected."

I have not noticed any being particularly upset. This started because someone was incensed that I used to word 'magic' and equated it with 'supernatural'.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843380 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 2:21 PM
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And that is not faith. It is viewing God as a magical Jini in the sky.

Isn't it presumptuous to claim to know what faith is valid and what faith is invalid?

Oh, I don't know... The fact that I've been a spokesperson for a faith community that views faith as our response rather than our demand, might have something to do with actually speaking on a subject that I have made my living speaking on.... might have some bearing.


I understand what you preach and claim to practice, but still, that the practices of a different parish/cult is any less valid.

You simply cannot know. You have to take it on faith.

Just like the Popes who are supposed to be the infallible word of god and ordered women to be tortured to death were wrong then, so are religion professionals constantly backpeddling now.

Open minded as you are, you are not opposed to planting different crops in the same field... wearing garments of multiple materials?

Lots of stuff religious people took on faith is no longer taken on faith.... it's just a matter of time till more of the things you take on faith fall to the wayside.

Magic, faith.... 2 sides of the same coin.

sano - prays for surf, but checks with NOAA before heading out.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843391 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/9/2012 2:58 PM
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several atheists are presuming to know more about what constitutes faith than I do


I'm not presuming to know 'more' than you, but I'm sure my understanding as to what constitutes faith and magic is just as valid as yours, the popes, the imams,


faith and magic - 2 sides of the same coin to many athiests, theists, agnostics.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843551 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 9:21 AM
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I'm an atheist and I don't think religious faith and magic are the same thing. It just seems that way because for most religious people, but not all, faith is a belief in magic.

For example, any religious belief that involves a supernatural being acting in a manner to reward and/or punish in individual or society is basically a belief in magic. It's also an example of mankind's extreme egocentricism. If there is a Being Supremo, it doesn't care about you.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843555 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 10:07 AM
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I have no desire to convert you, baptize you, save your soul or any other thing that has more to do with your fantasies than it does with anything I would intend or actually do.




I'll believe you when you pass a constitutional amendment that requires that any government employee, including elected officials, to be instantly fired for using his office to endorse religion, or for using tax dollars to endorse religion.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843557 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 10:09 AM
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I was careful to simply say "faith"... and by that, I mean a faith in some higher power. It could be the God of Jesus, the God of Moses, the God of Mohammed, the higher power of Alcoholics Anonymous, or the (not)God of Guatama Buddha.

It's a way of life, not a set of propositions.




Either it's true, or it's false. If it's true, then there should be some positive evidence to support it. So far, there is none.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843558 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 10:12 AM
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Just goes to show.... many (but not all) atheists are simply fundamentalists who got pissed off.




This is false, of course. Atheists lack a belief in God. It has nothing to do with being a fundamentalist Christian.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843559 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 10:13 AM
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I'll believe you when you pass a constitutional amendment that requires that any government employee, including elected officials, to be instantly fired for using his office to endorse religion, or for using tax dollars to endorse religion.
______________

And I'll believe you when you honor what has always been in the constitution

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843560 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 10:16 AM
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I'll believe you when you pass a constitutional amendment that requires that any government employee, including elected officials, to be instantly fired for using his office to endorse religion, or for using tax dollars to endorse religion.
______________

And I'll believe you when you honor what has always been in the constitution

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.




My proposed amendment does not conflict with that. Tax dollars come from the budget, which is a law passed by Congress. So if those dollars are used to endorse religion, it is in fact a law establishing a religion.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843564 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 10:22 AM
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My proposed amendment does not conflict with that. Tax dollars come from the budget, which is a law passed by Congress. So if those dollars are used to endorse religion, it is in fact a law establishing a religion.
_____________

Ah hum. So I guess when "the progressives" used government money to recruit black church leaders to pass out their pamphlets about family planning, you object to that too.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843566 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 10:35 AM
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Ah hum. So I guess when "the progressives" used government money to recruit black church leaders to pass out their pamphlets about family planning, you object to that too.
____________________________________

Actually acknowledging a religion, should really be just fine, while recruiting for one is a whole different issue.

To the libs credit, they do back the illegal and are anti the legal. There are certain aspect where even I can not take away an admiration for their consistency.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843567 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 10:38 AM
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My proposed amendment does not conflict with that. Tax dollars come from the budget, which is a law passed by Congress. So if those dollars are used to endorse religion, it is in fact a law establishing a religion.
_____________

Ah hum. So I guess when "the progressives" used government money to recruit black church leaders to pass out their pamphlets about family planning, you object to that too.





If there is an endorsement of religion involved, then I object.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843570 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 10:41 AM
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If there is an endorsement of religion involved, then I object.
_________________

And if there is an endorsement or mandate to change their religous views?

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Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 11:34 AM
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If there is an endorsement of religion involved, then I object.
_________________

And if there is an endorsement or mandate to change their religous views?





The same.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843607 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 11:55 AM
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No response, Bill? After accusing me of a 'complete fabrication', I think you'd at least have the courtesy to address my reply. I don't think I lied.



"That's not only a misrepresentation of what I said. It's also a complete fabrication."

Sorry, I must have misunderstood. Did you not claim to be a spokesperson for your community of faith? You were asked if it was presumptuous to discount what I described as a prayer (one which I have heard people earnestly pray) as 'not faith'. Your answer was because you were that spokesperson, you had the ability to do so. That was your reason to be able to decide what I see as faith as 'not faith'. I didn't fabricate anything, and I don't see that I misrepresented what you said. But please feel free to explain, and if I truly misunderstood I will say I am sorry.

If it just your opinion, we just differ on that. People pray for things all the time that your definition of 'not faith' would meet. I daresay that they certainly believe that are people of faith.

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843640 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 12:45 PM
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If it hasn't already been covered, I would ask two questions:

1. What do you mean by divine purpose?

2. How does your conception of God help you discover or figure out your divine purpose?

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843712 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 3:32 PM
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I'll believe you when you pass a constitutional amendment that requires that any government employee, including elected officials, to be instantly fired for using his office to endorse religion, or for using tax dollars to endorse religion.

Faith does not equal religion.

Stating "God Bless America" is an expression of faith, not religion. Nothing in the Constitution suggests we should have a separation of faith and state.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843715 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 3:37 PM
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"Faith does not equal religion."

The phrasing should really be this; Faith in the supernatural equals faith in the magical. In general, they are equal - at least they are for a non-believer (in either the supernatural or magic). As someone else said, they are two sides of the same coin.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843718 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 3:42 PM
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Faith in the supernatural equals faith in the magical. In general, they are equal

For the sake of arguement, I will accept your premise.

Then, by extension, wishing anyone, "good luck" would be an expression of faith and illegal under the Constitution.

If there is no god, what difference does it make what some pols says? Why would an athiest care any more about someone saying "God bless you" than they would someone saying, "good luck."

To an athiest, they should care equal "magical" weight.

"Have a good day" or "God be with You" is just a magical wish for someone to do better than they otherwise scientifically would, correct?

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843727 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 3:53 PM
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"Then, by extension, wishing anyone, "good luck" would be an expression of faith and illegal under the Constitution."

How would that be illegal?


"If there is no god, what difference does it make what some pols says? Why would an athiest care any more about someone saying "God bless you" than they would someone saying, "good luck." To an athiest, they should care equal "magical" weight."

To me they do. An expression like that is one of good wishes and kindness.

"Have a good day" or "God be with You" is just a magical wish for someone to do better than they otherwise scientifically would, correct?"

Again, I would take any wishes like that as a positive thing. A kindness, and expression of friendship, etc.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843745 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 4:30 PM
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Then, by extension, wishing anyone, "good luck" would be an expression of faith and illegal under the Constitution.



That's about the most ridiculous statement I think I've read all day - and, believe me, this board is rife with ridiculous statements.


AM

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843755 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 4:38 PM
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That's about the most ridiculous statement I think I've read all day

Author: feedmeNOWhuman

I'll believe you when you pass a constitutional amendment that requires that any government employee, including elected officials, to be instantly fired for using his office to endorse religion, or for using tax dollars to endorse religion.

and, believe me, this board is rife with ridiculous statements.

Oh, I believe you. I often see a few of yours that qualify.

Hawkwin
Getting back to "being a man."

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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843797 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 6:05 PM
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"No response, Bill? After accusing me of a 'complete fabrication', I think you'd at least have the courtesy to address my reply. I don't think I lied.
"

I don't blame Bill at all. All he did was present an opinion and one coming from his area of expertise. And he gets lambasted by you and the other non-believers.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843800 of 1951316
Subject: Re: Faith and Magic Date: 12/10/2012 6:21 PM
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"I don't blame Bill at all. All he did was present an opinion and one coming from his area of expertise. And he gets lambasted by you and the other non-believers."

Did you even read my reply? I presented my opinion as well, stated what I believed he said, and I was then accused of making a 'complete fabrication', without any explanation of how he came to that conclusion. I could understand that were it coming from you, but Bill is generally reasonable and intelligent with his responses. You, not so much.

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