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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1976625  
Subject: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 12:49 PM
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Looks like the Tsarnaev's father worked for the Russian security services in Chechnya as a soldier or spy against the Islamist rebels there. That helps explain why they lived in Krgyzstan, not Chechnya, (the boys had never been there) and why the family was so easily granted political asylum in the U.S.

In other words, Dad was a secular Muslim on the Russian government side of the conflict. Middle East scholar Juan Cole suggests that father-son rebellion, more than Islamist ideology or politics, motivated the bombers, and that Tamerlan's Islamism was a pose, an excuse or revenge against a father who was a traitor against his people.

http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/fathers-sons-chechnya.html

This sounds to me like a classic father-son struggle, and a tale of adolescent rebellion, in which radical Muslim vigilanteism appears mainly as a tool for the young men to get back to their father, and perhaps to wipe off the shame they had begun feeling about the family having been on the wrong side of the Chechnya fundamentalist uprising. They were playing the nihilists Arkady and Bazarov in Turgenev’s Fathers and Sons.
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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872134 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 12:55 PM
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The intellectually challenged will soon be accusing you of making excuses for the sons' bombing.

Which you are not.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872135 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 1:01 PM
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On the part of the elder son, it is certainly also (mostly?) a reaction to his failure as a boxer and in the job market.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872137 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 1:18 PM
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On the part of the elder son, it is certainly also (mostly?) a reaction to his failure as a boxer and in the job market.

That too. I'm not saying it's one thing. What I am suggesting is that for these two men, Islamic radicalism was a means to end, not the end in itself.

I think what we have in Tamerlan is a disaffected loser, a guy who's boxing dreams didn't pan out, whose marriage fell apart, who had no close friends, who couldn't finish school and couldn't get a job. His need to be a part of "something bigger" drove him to radical Islam, a "club" that also satisfied his need to rebel against his father.

Once there, his "hero complex" and need to "right" his father's "wrongs" pushed him towards terrorism. This isn't uncommon for mass murderers -- if they can't be famous for being successful at something, they shoot (pun acknowledged) for infamous.

Dzokhar seems like a little-brother tag along who'd watched too many action movies. His post-attack coolness, however, suggests a psychopathic personality. But again, there seems to be very little Islamist zeal there. I won't be surprised, however, if he now fully adopts that pose, if only to try rationalize for himself his terrible actions.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872138 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 1:24 PM
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His post-attack coolness, however, suggests a psychopathic personality.


I would be curious to learn more about his behavior. Do you have any links?

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872139 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 1:29 PM
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The intellectually challenged will soon be accusing you of making excuses for the sons' bombing.

Probably. But so what? They're wrong about everything.

It's important to understand the motivation of these two. If they're the tip of an AQ tentacle, it's one thing. If they're home-grown losers posing as Islamic radicals to fulfill some sick fantasy, it's another.

From a national security perspective, it makes a big difference whether someone is an ideologue who commits terrorist acts in service of the ideology or a psychopath who adopts an ideology to rationalize his actions. They present completely different profiles for counter-terrorism purposes.

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Author: NemesisToLibs Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872140 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 1:32 PM
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"Probably. But so what? They're wrong about everything.
"

The real you comes out with this statement: Arrogant elitist.

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Author: willynaylor Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872142 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 1:54 PM
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Probably. But so what? They're wrong about everything.

_______________

Hero complex indeed.

The hero is you, of course.

Willy

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Author: mbarr Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872147 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 2:14 PM
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Yep, just a couple of wacky kids rebelling against a stern dad. Nothing to see here. Let's move on.

The Russians asked the US to question Tamerlan two years ago because of suspected connections to Chechen extremists, but I'm sure it's nothing.

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872160 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 3:59 PM
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I would be curious to learn more about his behavior. Do you have any links?

_______________________________


While you're at it, analyze why the terrorist bomber was so calm, collected and partying after his crazed attack on innocent people.
Perhaps you and Felix can come up with logical answers so we can all feel sorry for the poor widdle misguided youths....

snip
"DARTMOUTH — Dzhokhar Tsarnaev spent an apparently normal day Wednesday at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth, where he was a sophomore, according to a school official, working out in the gym, then sleeping in his dorm room that night, while law enforcement officials frantically scanned photos trying to identify the men who planted deadly bombs at the Boston Marathon on Monday.

Card swipes told officials that Tsarnaev, described as a good and typical student who played intramural soccer, was on campus Wednesday, but it was not clear if he had been there earlier in the week.

A student, who did not want to be identified, also said she saw Tsarnaev at a party on Wednesday night that was attended by some of his soccer friends.

“He was just relaxed,” she said."


http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/19/bombing-suspect-...

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872180 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 5:33 PM
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Amazing. There is video and photos of him sauntering down the sidewalk after the bombs went off. Not a care in the world, just walking down the sidewalk. Wednesday night, the two bragged about what they did to the guy the carjacked and robbed.

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872187 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 6:58 PM
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I just hope the authorities are successful at getting some information. Here's a kid, that apparently everyone liked, that went back to his dorm Wednesday. He worked out, went to a party, talked with friends, spent the night in the dorm. Then, he went back towards Boston Thursday. We have all heard what happened Thursday night with his older brother.

The questions have probably already been put into the investigative models. Why did he go back? We know there were tons of munitions and even bombs back in Cambridge, where the older brother's apartment was. What else were they planning? Did anyone know of their plans? Why did the younger bomber travel to Russia last year for six months?

Everyone hopes this was just the actions of two angry men, and no more. But unlike other subjects, investigators will have access to things that typically seasoned terrorists don't leave behind. After 911, terrorism has become less organized and centralized as far as planning goes, and far more individualistic. Doku Umarov's statements broadened the targets and motives of the Chechnya struggles, as he made it more about Islam and Muslims. Perhaps these kids related to that, perhaps not.

But their behavior suggests they certainly had the propensity to be pathological, no matter what their intentions and reasons.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872188 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 6:59 PM
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His post-attack coolness, however, suggests a psychopathic personality.
---
I would be curious to learn more about his behavior. Do you have any links?


Not really. Heard some of his classmates interviewed on the radio.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1779809...

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872190 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 7:00 PM
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Yep, just a couple of wacky kids rebelling against a stern dad. Nothing to see here. Let's move on.

Nope. No one said that.

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Author: mbarr Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872211 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 8:45 PM
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The OP source said it was father son rebellion more than radical Islamism that motivated the bombings. Sounds a lot like someone said that.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872220 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/20/2013 9:16 PM
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Yep, just a couple of wacky kids rebelling against a stern dad. Nothing to see here. Let's move on.
---

Nope. No one said that.
---

The OP source said it was father son rebellion more than radical Islamism that motivated the bombings. Sounds a lot like someone said that.


That's true. But no one said it was "just a couple of wacky kids rebelling against a stern dad" or that there's nothing more to it and we should "move on." That's your peculiar dismissive spin.

Cole's saying there's a lot more to it and I'm saying if we're to learn anything about how to prevent this kind of thing from happening again we need to understand their motives, which seem very different from, say, the 9-11 terrorists.

Or we can just bash Muslims and beat up random Sikhs.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872239 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 12:09 AM
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While you're at it, analyze why the terrorist bomber was so calm, collected and partying after his crazed attack on innocent people.


On the face of it, three possibilities come to mind - he may have been on drugs, or (as Felix suggested) he has a psychopathic personality.
Difficult to say from what little information we have, however, from what the people who knew him are saying, aside from the mass murder, of course. If he is a true psychopath, you'd expect to hear stories about lying, cheating, cruelty, manipulation, sexual promiscuity etc.

Alternatively, he was traumatized by a very bad childhood (no, really) full of violence.
Given his background, that seems very likely. Regions like Chechnya aren't exactly known for their enlightened child rearing techniques, and a very large part of the population grows up traumatized and emotionally crippled.
A typical symptom of this kind of trauma is "dissociation", where individuals become emotionally detached from reality. "Numb" if you will.
That seems to me to be the most likely explanation of his behavior after this attack.

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Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872249 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 12:34 AM
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"Yep, just a couple of wacky kids rebelling against a stern dad. Nothing to see here. Let's move on.

The Russians asked the US to question Tamerlan two years ago because of suspected connections to Chechen extremists, but I'm sure it's nothing."


Yep, that is clearly what the poster said. Really credible.

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872291 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 8:27 AM
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Alternatively, he was traumatized by a very bad childhood (no, really) full of violence.
Given his background, that seems very likely. Regions like Chechnya aren't exactly known for their enlightened child rearing techniques, and a very large part of the population grows up traumatized and emotionally crippled.
A typical symptom of this kind of trauma is "dissociation", where individuals become emotionally detached from reality. "Numb" if you will.

That seems to me to be the most likely explanation of his behavior after this attack.

_______________________

How many have lived and grown under the same circumstances and would never dream of doing such a horrid deed?
America opened it's arms to the two brothers and gave them opportunities and a better way of life their peers in their former homeland would love to have had. They learned nothing.

I view the brothers as no different than the 9/11 terrorist devoted to a cause.

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Author: JavaRunner Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872293 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 8:39 AM
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How many have lived and grown under the same circumstances and would never dream of doing such a horrid deed?
========================================================================


Every family is different LurkerMom. Yes, for every whackjob and their kids in this world, there are countless others who decide to do harm. You and I have no real clue as to what these brothers went through. I don't know what leads one man to extreme violence, and another to peace. I do know the world is not black and white, and the sooner we really understand this, maybe then we can work harder to prevent horrors like this from happening.

Yesterday in my store, we were selling Run for Boston shirts with proceeds going to the One Fund. I listened to a man rant at me for 5 minutes about how we need to change our tactics, and go in and kill all of "them" before they kill all of us.

If that is the reaction to terror in this country, then we may be no better than those who attack us.

I think what these two did was despicable. I hope they get all the info they can from the 19 year old, and then toss him in prison. But I also think what allegedly know now, most likely doesn't come close to understanding what leads two young men to violence.

Charlie

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872303 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 9:52 AM
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You and I have no real clue as to what these brothers went through. I don't know what leads one man to extreme violence, and another to peace

The brothers were in America for something like 10 years, from the time they were young boys. They had a better way of life than many American kids did growing up, college, nice clothes (looking at published pictures)promising careers ahead of them, etc. In other words I see them as living the American dream immigrants come to America hoping for.

To quote from one of dozens of articles...

"The brothers came from the Russian Caucasus region and moved to Kazakhstan at a young age before coming to the United States several years ago.
"My youngest was raised from 8 years in America. My oldest was really properly raised in our house. Nobody talked about terrorism," their mother said.
The suspects' parents recently returned to Dagestan in the Caucasus region after living in the United States for about 10 years because they were "nostalgic," the father, Anzor Tsarnaev, told Russian state-run Zvezda TV."

Sorry, I don't buy the story of a traumatic childhood when a good part of their childhood was spent growing up in America. As I said, they learn nothing from the opportunities given them.

The brothers imo, were devoted to the same cause as the 9/11 terrorist. How and why they were indoctrinated is what needs to be found out...

Yesterday in my store

Not to change the subject, do you have an online link to your store?
LM...always looking for an excuse to go shopping. ;)

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Author: JavaRunner Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872304 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 9:58 AM
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Sorry, I don't buy the story of a traumatic childhood when a good part of their childhood was spent growing up in America. As I said, they learn nothing from the opportunities given them.



Again, the world is not black and white. It is a ton of grey. For every kid that grows up in America, then there is no excuse for them to commit any crime according to your reasoning. Of course there is crime, and it usually stems from whatever is going on in their lives. We don't live in a vacuum. Our experiences, good and bad shape who we are, and how we live.

Media reports don't tell you what these two experienced every day of their lives. I don't even begin to presume to know what they have experienced, so I doubt a reporter can make it all nice and neat for us.

No....my store has no online presence. You can come and shop though. Just know if you talk politics in my store, the answer will be, "I just sell shoes."

Charlie

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872315 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 10:47 AM
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This is the mother that did some damage while she was stealing from a Lord and Taylor store last year?

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872316 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 10:50 AM
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How many have lived and grown under the same circumstances and would never dream of doing such a horrid deed?


The vast majority of people who are traumatized like that don't.
A lot of them inflict similar trauma on their children, passing this mental disease to the next generation, of course.

I'm not justifying or excusing evil, merely trying to understand it from a scientific perspective.
The guy needs to go to jail, forever.
It's unfortunate that he grew up as he did and that he was likely influenced to commit this atrocity by his older brother, but he did what he did and deserves whatever he gets for it.

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Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 10:58 AM
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This entire story brought me back to my running days. My first pair of shoes were Tiger Marathons, bought in a shoe store in Natick mass run by someone familiar in the running world.

The sole on one shoe melted off my right food about two thirds of the way up Heartbreak Hill in a driving rain. No socks either ;)

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872320 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 11:02 AM
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I view the brothers as no different than the 9/11 terrorist devoted to a cause.

I'm pretty sure that all 9/11 terrorists had serious mental illnesses.
The entire Middle East has epidemic levels of psychological trauma.
Why do you think it's so f***** up?
Take Egypt as a particularly grotesque example. Aside from the routine brutalization of children that is standard practice in all traditional societies, 97% of all women in Egypt have been genitally mutilated, meaning that they can't have a normal sex life.
In every family in Egypt, to the woman, sex means pain. To the husband, it means inflicting pain. Can you imagine what that means for their mental health? What kind of society do you get if you extrapolate the mental illness of a household to a societal level?

If there's ever going to be an end to terror, we need to somehow get the Arabs and other Middle Easterners to stop brutalizing their children and mutilating their women.

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872322 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 11:05 AM
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Media reports don't tell you what these two experienced every day of their lives. I don't even begin to presume to know what they have experienced, so I doubt a reporter can make it all nice and neat for us.

No....my store has no online presence. You can come and shop though. Just know if you talk politics in my store, the answer will be, "I just sell shoes."

Charlie

_______________________

True, I still hold the opinion it is not so much a traumatic childhood that turned the brothers but were indoctrinated somewhere along the way.

I very, very seldom talk politics once my computer is turned off. Anyone bringing up politics, or religion for that matter, is also met with a similar line, "I just sell shoes." ;) I've learned some people are just too passionate about their pov, and become angry or hurt if I do not agree with them. There are many good topics to talk about and enjoy a good conversation.

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872325 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 11:19 AM
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Interesting follow up


http://news.yahoo.com/hierarchy-brothers-marathon-bombing-23...

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Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 12:35 PM
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If there's ever going to be an end to terror, we need to somehow get the Arabs and other Middle Easterners to stop brutalizing their children and mutilating their women.
_________________

Their culture is backward and brutal, IMO, of course.
Their history shows that they will not stop, and ideally would like to spread their wonderful culture throughout the world.

Guess we'll just have to learn to be more tolerant and accept it all.

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872341 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 12:46 PM
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Take Egypt as a particularly grotesque example. Aside from the routine brutalization of children that is standard practice in all traditional societies, 97% of all women in Egypt have been genitally mutilated, meaning that they can't have a normal sex life.
In every family in Egypt, to the woman, sex means pain. To the husband, it means inflicting pain. Can you imagine what that means for their mental health? What kind of society do you get if you extrapolate the mental illness of a household to a societal level?

_______________________

Where did you get these distorted ideas about Egypt? Have you been to Egypt? I have. I spent three weeks in Egypt just shortly before the chaos there and my guide was an Egyptian women. I saw and heard none of this. In fact my guide divorced her husband. He was a slouch living off her employment till she decided enough is enough. Teenage girls and the little children, what a delight! Always smiling, giggling and loved having their pictures taken. I could go on with stories such as the conversation I had with 'Sarah' dressed entirely in her burka while at the Library of Alexandria. I could only see her sparkling eyes that told me she was happy with her way of life. We had a wonderful conversation while her husband, parents and a aunt looked on. Apparently she was well educated speaking perfect English. She was as eager to talk to me as I was her. When we parted Sarah and I shook hands. I reached out to shake hands with her husband. I saw him hesitate but he shook my hand anyways. I asked Sarah if I did something wrong. She told me the custom was only women to women and not women to man when shaking hands. The husband seem to understand though I did not know this and gave me a slight smile as if to say it was OK.
What is happening in Egypt now is shocking to me. It was/is nothing like the wonderful people I met then and the historic Egypt I saw on my travels there.

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872368 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 3:46 PM
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http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/12/05/egyptian-women-be...

Egypt has their issues, before, and especially now. But an educated and more modern society. Too bad it's going the other way.

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872370 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 4:28 PM
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Egypt has their issues, before, and especially now. But an educated and more modern society. Too bad it's going the other way.

__________________________

I cannot say what is going on in Egypt since the downfall of Mubarak. Most of all I hear, it is not good. I had some contact with the guide I had via e-mail, but have not heard back from her for quite some time now. I imagine the tourist trade is nil or very little. Too bad. The one thing Mubarak did do was to make sure tourists were well looked after and kept safe being the money spent by tourist was an important part of Egypt's economy, giving employment to a large segment of the population.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872387 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 6:58 PM
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Where did you get these distorted ideas about Egypt?

The genital mutilation part? WHO statistics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation



What is happening in Egypt now is shocking to me. It was/is nothing like the wonderful people I met then and the historic Egypt I saw on my travels there.


Someone can be a wonderful person and suffer from serious mental illness at the same time. Traditional societies tend to offer a very stable and pretty facade but harbour epidemic levels of trauma, abuse and mental illness.
Most of the people you met, behind the smiles, they have deep emotional wounds and carry with them a great deal of pain.

Had you visited my home country Germany in 1928, you would have been similarly impressed by the nice people there. But child-rearing in the 19th and early 20th century had been singularly disciplinarian brutal (along the lines that you had to beat the devil out of your three-year-old, etc.).
Those already traumatized children were then sent off to fight World War I, the most gruesome war imaginable, and the survivors came back emotionally scarred and many suffering from PTSD. The upending of the social order and the impoverishment during the hyperinflation didn't exactly help.
The mental health of German society overall was in a very bad state when the 30s came, and those nice, but very sick people elected Hitler, burned down the continent and sent their neighbors off to concentration camps.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872390 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 7:03 PM
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Interesting theory about the Middle East. Sort of a corollary to my theory about male sexual repression and frustration being the primary fuel for Islamic radicalism.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872392 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 7:04 PM
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Interesting theory about the Middle East. Sort of a corollary to my theory about male sexual repression and frustration, and homosexual shame, being the primary fuel for Islamic radicalism.

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Author: JavaRunner Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872405 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 8:14 PM
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I've learned some people are just too passionate about their pov, and become angry or hurt if I do not agree with them.



Here was yesterday in my store....

1) The man I mentioned earlier in this thread.

2) A couple asks which running shoes are made in the US. I tell them New Balance is the major brand which makes about 70% of their shoes in the US. The wife says, "Oh I can't buy New Balance, because they give to Susan G. Koman, and got hijacked by Planned Parenthood." I smiled and told her, "I just sell shoes."

3) A man looks for a replacement water bottle. I asked if he lost it. He says, "No my B - - - h soon to be ex-wife has a restraining order on me, and I can't go into my home." Yup...you got it. "I just sell shoes."

I remember a time when people just asked about products in a store.

Charlie

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872410 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 8:37 PM
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The genital mutilation part? WHO statistics.

I must admit I am really shocked by this. Seeing myself the openly happy women and even teenage girls and boys flirting with one another I would never think this still happened, at least not in, for the most part Egypt.

I checked further...

"In 2008 Egypt outlawed the practice of female genital mutilation, but as Newsnight's Sue Lloyd-Roberts reports in an article which contains graphic detail and which some readers may find disturbing, the ban has had little effect and the practice is still rife."

Had you visited my home country Germany in 1928, you would have been similarly impressed by the nice people there. But child-rearing in the 19th and early 20th century had been singularly disciplinarian brutal (along the lines that you had to beat the devil out of your three-year-old, etc.).
Those already traumatized children were then sent off to fight World War I, the most gruesome war imaginable, and the survivors came back emotionally scarred and many suffering from PTSD. The upending of the social order and the impoverishment during the hyperinflation didn't exactly help.

The mental health of German society overall was in a very bad state when the 30s came, and those nice, but very sick people elected Hitler, burned down the continent and sent their neighbors off to concentration camps.


My father's parents immigrated from Germany during the 1890's, my father was the youngest of 10 children. Fortunately they escaped all you described. There is no known history of ancestors or descendants who might still exist. From what I understand the section of Germany they came from is no longer a part of Germany but was annexed to a bordering country after WWII. I believe I have some information of that but offhand do not recall.
OTOH my mother's parents immigrated from Norway in 1902. After over a century of time, two world wars and everything else in between my American Norwegian family has never lost contact with our extended family in Norway. I have some very interesting stories of how my family there was affected by the invading Nazi.

Sorry, I didn't mean to ramble and go off topic. Your description of what it was like in Germany made me pause and think my grandparents and father would have been caught in the middle of it all had they not immigrated to America.

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872415 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/21/2013 9:00 PM
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I remember a time when people just asked about products in a store.

Charlie

____________________________

Thank you for sharing your stories. They made me laugh.

I must admit though, politics here in Wisconsin was quite heated up because of Gov. Walker vs the Unions, the recalls, protests, boycotts and what have you going on the past two years give or take. I'm glad it is all over with and we have returned pretty much to low-key politics as per usual.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872517 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/22/2013 1:14 PM
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This sounds to me like a classic father-son struggle, and a tale of adolescent rebellion, in which radical Muslim vigilanteism appears mainly as a tool for the young men to get back to their father

So just to make sure I get the point being made...

If I am pissed at my dad, one can assume that a means by which I might chose to get back at him might be to become radically religious and then bomb a marathon killing three random innocent people?

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1872548 of 1976625
Subject: Re: Fathers and Sons Date: 4/22/2013 3:10 PM
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So just to make sure I get the point being made...

If I am pissed at my dad, one can assume that a means by which I might chose to get back at him might be to become radically religious and then bomb a marathon killing three random innocent people?


Good thing you checked because that's not even close to the point being made.

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