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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1660  
Subject: Fatwa Date: 12/17/2001 3:06 PM
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Having heard Hamas taking credit for suicide bombers murdering innocent men women and children, and having heard OBL admit pre-9/11 planning.....

When can we expect to hear a mullah issue a fatwa ?

Any mullah, anywhere.. here? There?

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Author: exwa Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 273 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/17/2001 3:21 PM
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hamas is going to do what they are going to do regardless of any fatwas against it...and i'm sure will happily reference any made in favor...

truth is, what i hear from people who are either from palestine, or who have family there is that the majority of the people are not very religious. so it doesn't really do any good to explain how suicide bombing is against islam to a person who isn't following islam for the most part anyway.

what the palestinian people need is a "ghandi" of sorts to rise from their own ranks...who can lead them to take the higher moral road...and hopefully through righteousness they can regain their dignity and rights. so far we haven't seen any such person...i pray there is one out there somewhere who will show his or her face soon.

e

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 274 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/17/2001 3:54 PM
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I agree on your take on the inner Palestinian problem. My question is more specific...

Why do the mullahs not issue a fatwa in regard to people who are doing such un-Islamic stuff . Such people are bringing so much grief to all the good Muslims, why not disassociate the bad ones...

I'm getting the distinct impression there is some sort of wink and a nod given to the less religious , more insidious groups.

Americans are quite vocal in their disgust with extremists, skinheads, JDL types, and other vermin....

Why no fatwa?

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Author: exwa Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 275 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/17/2001 4:26 PM
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Why no fatwa?

=================

dunno...there are members of the muslim leadership who have spoken against terrorism, and there may well have been fatwas issued...but i honestly don't have a good answer for you. like i said before, it's all pretty disorganized for the most part, and i won't lie to you - there are muslims in the world who are in favor of such actions and do whatever they need to in finding justification.

i disagree with you on the business of americans being vocal against extremist groups...for the most part i've found the people i've known in my life to abhor (unless they are racist of course) the groups you mentioned...but they don't spend a whole lot of time on it...certainly i've never seen anyone organizing rallys or even writing articles to the paper. muslims are really no different. some will stand up and speak against immoral acts, some will work to correct the problem, some will speak in favor (just as our good southern neighbor has a tendancy to do when speaking on race), but most will just go about their business in life until something hits them over the head hard enough that they are forced to examine their indifference.

e

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 276 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/17/2001 5:48 PM
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i've found the people i've known in my life to abhor the groups you mentioned...but they don't spend a whole lot of time on it...

Gosh... I don't know where to begin...I'm almost wordless (you wish)... there is so much time spent fighting anti-hate groups in this country by citizens and government. If you aren't aware of it, don't see it, you must be wearing blinders!

But then, you are only talking about the people you've known, and that clearly is not representative of the people I've known

certainly i've never seen anyone organizing rallys or even writing articles to the paper

Attica! Attica!

Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh!

Dear Editor, Them extremists suck. I think they should all go away.



There, you go, E.. A bunch of rallies and an article to the paper.

Please.. anti-extremist rallies and articles are so common in America they are commonplace! I'm trying really hard to imagine how someone could not be aware of them!










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Author: exwa Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 277 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/17/2001 8:16 PM
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Please.. anti-extremist rallies and articles are so common in America they are commonplace! I'm trying really hard to imagine how someone could not be aware of them!

==============================

well, if they are anything on par with the peace rally in nyc my in laws attended...along with a lot of other muslims and representatives of many of the world's faiths...or the many articles and letters to the editors i've seen from muslims condemning terrorism...then i'd say the muslims are doing about as much as anyone else in this country. the "average americans" i know are mostly going about their business, and a lot of them don't even watch the news (or at least they didn't pre 9/11). we saw a lot more action when we lived near the universities, as one always does regarding these matters...but i've never heard of an "anti KKK" rally in recent times, or an anti skinhead rally...most of these things i've seen have been lumped under more general "peace" rallys and such.

so why don't you send me some links to articles regarding the activities of the average american in regard to any "anti-extremist" movements there are out there. then at least i can change my opinion about the complacency i've seen.

i've heard this before about the muslims....the "why don't the muslims speak out against these terrorist acts" and i say to you that they have. i've seen it in our local paper, i've seen it on the big network news, i've seen it on a wide variety of websites representing major muslim organizations in north america. many individual countries came out condemning the attack on america on 9/11...there have also been those (fewer in number) who have had the wisdom to also condemn the terrorist acts in the occupied territories...but to tell you the truth...it is hard for many people to feel a whole lot of compassion for the israelis considering the oppressive and inhumane conditions they have imposed on the palestinian people...it is hard for a teenage palestinian boy to see straight when he's seen numerous members of his family killed, his house demolished, his family without their basic needs and with no way to get them...it is also hard for people to rise above these injustices and react to them in the morally correct way...which does NOT involve killing kids and innocent civilians no matter how desparate your situation is.

it isn't easy. one could ask the same thing of the israeli's and the rest of the world...why did no one express enough outrage to force israel to change its position when the defied (and continue to defy) a UN resolution which demands they allow the refugees the right to return to their homes and land? where are the "fatwas" on this? where are the powers that be who can force israels hand who will demand that the abide by the UN resolutions and rules laid down by the Geneva convention?

i don't know why.

all i know is that i see injustice, oppression and killing all around. i see wrong on one side, i see wrong on the other side. i see demands for things that we cannot make people give. i see the world in a sad sad state, and i pray that some day there will be less suffering for everyone.

e












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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 278 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/17/2001 9:08 PM
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or the many articles and letters to the editors i've seen from muslims condemning terrorism

Most of which, like yours, usually include some sort of justification for the terrorism such as "if it werem't for American policy and oppression it wouldn't have happened."

I WANT A FATWA WITHOUT QUALIFICATION.

Why must you always include attacks on the Israelis?
Just say "Yes, it's wrong and that's that."

Why must you add "...but to tell you the truth...it is hard for many people (mainly Muslims)to feel a whole lot of compassion for the israelis considering the oppressive and inhumane conditions they have imposed on the palestinian people"

Most people understand that the Israeli's are acting in self-defense. If the Palestinians would chill they could rebuild and have peace. They flat out have murder in their hearts.

Most people believe the Palestinians are bringing on themselves.

The occupied territories are occupied because they have been launching grounds for terorists. If the Palestinians won't control their mad-dogs, then the Israelis have every right to defend themselves.

...it is also hard for people to rise above these injustices

Injustice? Going after Hamas suicide bombing cults into Palestinian murder training establishments is not injustice. It's self-defense. Stop the suicide attacks, the mortaring of innocent people, and the Israelis will be peaceful.

I'm flat out amazed by the restraint displayed by the Israelis. Had Tijuana Mexicans suicide bombed SanDiego, Tijuana would be mowed and sowed. End of story

I want a simple fatwa. I know it's never never never going to happen.






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Author: Assamlaksa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 279 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/17/2001 11:42 PM
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Fatwa's shouldn't be issued calling for the death of people. That would be an abuse of their purpose.

It is only in recent years that Fatwahs have been issued calling for the killing of people. The two that come to mind are the one gainst Salman Rushdie and the one by Osama Bin Laden against Americans. I did a search on the word Fatwah and can't find any others (I haven't heard of any others).

The Fatwah against Rushdie was by the Sh'ite (Shia) branch of Islam. They are a minority sect of Islam.

The Fatwah by Osama was by a crazy nutcase, who doesn't remotely represent mainstream Islam.

It is against mainstream Islamic belief to issue Fatwah's calling for the killing of people. A Fatwah is an edict concerning interpretation of a religious point. It is an abuse if they are being issued to call for the killing of people (whether they be evil or not). I am not aware of mainstream Sunni clerics ever issuing a Fatwa calling for the killing of someone. That is why you are unlikely to see a Fatwah being issued against OBL or the leaders of Hamas.



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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 280 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 10:16 AM
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I am not aware of mainstream Sunni clerics ever issuing a Fatwa calling for the killing of someone. That is why you are unlikely to see a Fatwah being issued against OBL or the leaders of Hamas.

Thanks for your concise answer!

Note, however, that I am not asking for a fatwa calling for the death of anybody.

I am calling for a fatwa which would declare the "nutcases" and the suicide bombing groups to be "persona non grata".

Kinda like when a priest gets caught inflagratte ... he gets his wings clipped.

A round of fatwas might get the attention of those who suppport the nutcasess and suicide bombing sects. Or it might just make the non-Muslims more comfortable knowing that the mainstream Muslim population is not supportive of the suicide bombers and nutcases. It's rather dis-concerting when one finds tha the mainstream Muslim charities have been fundraising for Hamas.




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Author: exwa Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 281 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 10:27 AM
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. It's rather dis-concerting when one finds tha the mainstream Muslim charities have been fundraising for Hamas.

====================

this is only an allegation, and from what i have read of the government accusations against the holy land foundation, their case does not sound convincing. are they really supposed to question hungry orphans about the political beliefs and actions of their late parents. do they say "sorry, your dad was a suicide bomber so you have to starve." please.

muslims donate money to these organizations because they feed and clothe the poor. anyone who knows anything about the politics of the area knows they have to deal with the likes of hamas just to get the job done. hamas does a lot more in the territories besides suicide bombings. my understanding is that they pretty much run the hospitals, orphanages and the like. so if hlf wants to help the people, they have to deal with hamas. what are they/we supposed to do? just let them all die because they have the unfortunate fate of being born in that land?

so no, these charities are not raising money for hamas. they are raising money for needy people...but the american populace has bought these accusations brought against them lock stock and barrel...and we hope one day they will be cleared and can get back to the business of helping people.

e



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Author: Nagajuna Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 282 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 10:51 AM
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disagree with you on the business of americans being vocal against extremist groups...for the most part i've found the people i've known in my life to abhor (unless they are racist of course) the groups you mentioned...but they don't spend a whole lot of time on it...certainly i've never seen anyone organizing rallys or even writing articles to the paper

I disagree as well. Sweep it under the rug. There was a time 10 years ago that my life almost took the path of working against hate groups and the protection of civil rights. I had thought of entering law school after working for a public defender's office where 3 of the 5 county judges were KKK men. I was deeply inspired by the work of the Southern Poverty Law Center.

I then decided after talking with people on the frontlines, that I was not prepared to beat my head against walls and risk my life in the process. Fighting these extremists is dangerous business and you really do not make any progress anyway. The lawyer I worked with wrote a research paper on the KKK in central Florida while an undergrad and for her efforts had a large cross burnt on her lawn. I can list numerous places where people of color are not allowed and could name names of people involved with murders, or so they told/bragged to me in vague unprovable ways.

Most people have no idea how these extremists walk in society and hold places of influence and power.

http://www.splcenter.org/splc.html



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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 283 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 11:08 AM
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this is only an allegation,

Yeah, right. And the jews are responsible for 9/11. It's only an allegation AlQaeda was involved

No, the fact is Hamas has been documented doing fundraising at the meetings of the charity here in Los Angeles with the entire meeting planned and set-up by the charity. Check your facts, E. There is proof.

hamas does a lot more in the territories besides suicide bombings.

Not your fathers oldsmobile, huh? Sorry. I don't buy it. It's like saying Hitler did a whole lot more than cook jews; He also instituted lebensraum for Germans and gave them jobs and Volkswagons...

so no, these charities are not raising money for hamas.

So, yes, they are. Period. You are blind to the facts. Support a bombers family after the fact so the neighbors know they will also be taken care of if they submit their excess spawn for the killing mill.

Why not find a way to help the hungry without supporting suicide bombing sonsofbitches.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 284 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 11:16 AM
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Nagajuna,
You chose not to fight the good fight, which is, ok. Yet the site you posted continues without you, as do the ACLU, NAACP, etc.

Sometimes it does feel like one is beating ones head against the brick wall, but we persevere.

The extremists in America do exist, but they are , for the most part, of little import in the big picture. They are relegated to the Jerry Springer sideshows; freaks, as they are.

To wit: David Duke got laughed out of the political arena, as he should have been. Pat Robertson for president? Not a chance... he's a political joke of no consequence.

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Author: tpeichel One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 285 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 1:27 PM
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so no, these charities are not raising money for hamas. they are raising money for needy people...but the american populace has bought these accusations brought against them lock stock and barrel...and we hope one day they will be cleared and can get back to the business of helping people.

======================================================================
A very tricky subject and I only know what I read. You seem quite certain of your belief. What evidence does the government have that money is going to Hamas? Do you personally know of any hard evidence to refute these claims? Is it possible that funds are being diverted to Hamas without the average donor realizing it?

Thanks,
Tim

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 286 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 1:55 PM
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CAIR is representative of the new transformation of militant Islamic groups. CAIR's origin and the affiliations of its founders. It was formed not by Muslim religious leaders throughout the country, but as an offshoot of the Islamic Association of Palestine (IAP). Incorporated in Texas, the IAP has close ties to Hamas and has trumpeted its support for terrorist activities. Its publications, the Arabic al-Zaytuna and the English language Muslim World Monitor, frequently praise terrorist actions,s Nihad Awad, the founder and executive director of CAIR, was contributing editor of the Muslim World Monitor when CAIR began operations.9 IAP has issued Hamas communiques calling for the killing of Jews, produced training videos for Hamas operatives, and actually recruited for Hamas in the United States.10 Oliver Revell, former head of FBI counter-terrorism, has called the IAP a "Hamas front."11 CAIR has used the IAP Web Site for its early Internet publications.12 The close connection between Hamas, IAP, and CAIR reveals CAIR's true purpose. The connections between CAIR and Hamas extend beyond Nihad Awad. Mohammad Nimer, the director of CAIR's Research Center, was on the board of directors of the United Association for Studies and Research (UASR). This innocuous sounding organization is the strategic arm of Hamas in the United States. One Hamas terrorist operative, caught and convicted by Israeli authorities, called UASR "the political command of llamas in the United States?13 There are numerous other indicators of the close connections between UASR and Hamas.14 Nimer's transition from UASR to CAIR paralleled Awad's transition from IAP to CAIR. Another founding director of CAIR, Rafeeq Jabar, is president of the Islamic Association of Palestine. At the October 1997 Council for the National Interest Convention, Jabar described Israel as "living in apartheid," and Zionism as a "racist movement." He asserted that "when a Jew passes by a cross, they (sic) have to spit" and said of Israel, "never treat this cancer with a bandage."15 Five Years After the World Trade Center Bombing In 1997, the United States racked up two important victories in the battle against international terrorism. Ramzi Yousef, a Pakistani citizen with Palestinian parentage, was sentenced to life in prison in 1997 for his role in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. Yousef, an engineer, was the bomb builder and was the technical mastermind behind the explosion. The explosion miraculously resulted in the deaths of only 6 individuals. According to Federal Agent Brian Parr, Yousef indicated that if the bombing had gone as planned, the goal was to kill as many as 250,000 people. Following the sentencing, Ramzi Yousef told the court, "Yes, I am a terrorist and am proud of it." Mir Aimal Kasi shot and killed two CIA agents during a shooting rampage outside of CIA headquarters on January 25, 1993. In November 1997, Kasi was in court in Fairfax, Virginia, for the penalty phase of his trial. On Wednesday, November 12, 1997, while jurors were deliberating on Kasi's fate, four American oil workers were gunned down in Karachi, Pakistan. A group called the Aimal Secret Committee claimed responsibility for the killings. The group threatened "if Aimal Kasi is martyred (given the death penalty), then we will not spare any American Jews on Pakistani soil and we will destroy the American Embassy in Pakistan." The group also threatened to kill President Clinton. (Star Tribune, November 16, 1997) Yet, despite these victories, five years after the 1993 World Trade Center bombing in New York, the reverberations of the bombing are still being felt. At first, the initial assumption by law enforcement was that the immediate national security threat was contained to a small band of extremist followers of a charismatic but obscure Islamic religious leader named Sheik Omar Abdul Rahman. Sheik Rahman, a militant cleric from Egypt, had arrived in the United States in 1990 and recruited a band of fanatic followers who were mobilized by his calls for Jihad (Holy War) against the West. In fact, in the five years since the bombing, intelligence officials and law enforcement agents have discovered that militant Islamic extremists have established extensive networks throughout the United States. Although there is no established hierarchy that centrally coordinates the activities of the myriad militant networks, the intelligence and law enforcement communities agree that the entire spectrum of radical groups from the Middle East has been replicated in the U.S. These include: Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizzbullah, Hizba-Tahrir (Islamic Liberation Party), Islamic Salvation Front (Algeria), Armed Islamic Group (Algeria), En-Nahda (Tunisian), Muslim Brotherhood, Ga'mat Islamiya (Egypt), Islamic Salvation Front (Algeria), Abu Sayyaf Group, followers of Osama bin Laden, Taliban (Afghanistan), Jamat Muslimeen (Pakistan and Bangledesh), and support groups of mujahideen (Holy Warriors) in Bosnia, Philippines, Chechniya and other places. These groups have created large networks ofsupporters from whom they have raised tens of millions of dollars for their movements, recruited and trained new followers, underwritten their brethren organizations in the Middle East and elsewhere, and even remotely directed terrorist operations back in the Middle East or Europe. As stated by Oliver Revell, former Associate Deputy Director of the FBI, "the United States is the most preferred and easiest place in the world for radical Islamic groups to set up their headquarters to wage war in their homelands, destabilize and attack American allies and ultimately move against the United States itself." For American Muslim moderates, the harsh reality of having their organizational gravity taken over by radicals is something they have to confront all the time. "Radical Islamic groups have now taken over leadership of the 'mainstream' Islamic institutions in the United States and anyone who pretends otherwise is deliberately engaging in self-deception," said the late Seif Ashmawi, an Egyptian-American newspaper publisher

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 287 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 1:56 PM
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Hamas has developed the largest network of all militant Islamic organizations in the United States. Its origins go back to 1981 when it started in Plainfield, Indiana. Today, Hamas. operating largely but not exclusively under the names the Islamic Association for Palestine and the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development--- has offices, branch chapters or a major presence in Richardson and Houston Texas; Chicago and Bridgeview, Illinois; Kansas City, Missouri; Los Angeles and Santa Clara, California; Patterson, New Jersey; Brooklyn, New York; Tucson and Phoenix, Arizona; and Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Its public activities largely consist of rallies and conferences (calling for jihad and death to the Jews), fundraising drives for "charitable" purposes, publication of Hamas newspapers and propaganda, efforts to reach out to local politicians to acquire political legitimacy and most frequent, constant efforts to mobilize support against Israel and pro-western Arab regimes and on behalf o the "Islamic movements" in Palestine and elsewhere. In previous years, conferences of the Islamic Association for Palestine have been vehicles to recruit and train terrorists to attack the Israelis. 2. Islamic Jihad. Tampa, Florida had served as the effective command and control center of the Islamic Jihad in the United States until federal agents descended in November 1995 upon the homes of suspected Islamic Jihad leaders who also served as professors at the University of South Florida in Tampa. The resulting trove of intelligence materials seized from the home an engineering professor and from the office of Professor Ramadan Abdullah Shallah--who suddenly surfaced in Damascus as official head of the terrorist group--wasthe largest such seizure seized since the World Trade Center arrests. Islamic Jihad still has a major but reduced presence in Tampa and is also known to have a major presence in Chicago

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 288 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 1:59 PM
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Hizzbollah. The Lebanese Islamic fundamentalist group has kept an unusually low profile in the United States despite an advanced infrastructure of intelligence agents and operatives. The major centers of support today are in Bethesda, Maryland; Detroit and Ann Arbor, Michigan; and Chicago, Illinois. Hardcore Hizzbollah cells are known to exist in New York; New Jersey; Texas; Miami and Boca Raton, Florida. 4. Gamat Islamiyah. This Egyptian extremist movement, whose head Sheik Omar Abdul Rahman is now serving a life sentence, has an active presence in San Diego (operating through the American Islamic Group); Baltimore and College Park, Maryland (which publishes "New Trends" a magazine that sanctions violent attacks on Jews and the United States); North Carolina; Jersey City; and Boston, Massachusetts. 5. Abu Say-yaf. The militant Islamic fundamentalist group headquartered in the Philippines and also tied to Ramzi Yousef. Believed to have cells in northern California. 6. Jamat Muslimeen from Pakistan and Bangladesh. A militant Islamic fundamentalist movement with large presence in Brooklyn and Queens New York; California; and New Jersey. 7. AI Muhajirun. An extension of the British based Islamic group believed to be funded by radical Saudi expatriate Osama bin Laden. Located in Queens, New York 8. Muslim Arab Youth Association. Dominated by militant Egyptians and Palestinians, MAYA is one of the largest constituent organizations of the Muslim Brotherhood. Its annual conferences feature some of the most extreme Islamic leaders in the world. At previous conferences, terrorist training sessions have been held. It has chapters or has held conferences in Oklahama City, Oklahoma; Phoenix and Tempe, Arizona; Ontario and Los Angeles, California; Detroit, Michigan; Jersey City, New Jersey; Chicago, Illinois; Houston, Texas; and Kansas City, Missouri. 9. Hizba-Tarir. Islamic Liberation Party. Headquartered in northern California and in Queens New York. It openly calls for jihad and attacks against western regimes and the overthrow of proWestern Arab regimes.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 289 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 2:02 PM
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United Association for Studies and Research. The strategic arm of llamas in the United States; located in Springfield, Virginia. 11. The Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR). It grew out of the Hamas organization (the Islamic Association for Palestine) in Texas in 1994 and has evolved in a major propaganda arm of Islamic extremist groups, in particular Hamas. CAIR now has chapters in cities coast to coast, with its particularly aggressive headquarters operating in Washington D.C. Two of the three founding directors of CAIR occupied senior positions in the Islamic Association for Palestine, a front group for Hamas. 12. The American Muslim Council. Headquartered in Washington DC, the American Muslim Council serves as the defacto lobbying arm of the Muslim Brotherhood in the United States. It has lead the campaign to stop Salman Rushdie from meeting with President Bill Clinton, lobbied against the counter-terrorist legislation, defended the terrorist regime of the Sudan against charges that it is engaged in terrorism, championed Hamas chieftain Musa AbuMarzook and other Islamic terrorists, and attacked all critics of militant Islam as "antiMuslim." The Use of Non-Profit and Tax-Exempt Foundations The primary vehicle through which radical groups have established a "legitimate" presence in the United States has been the establishment of non-profit charitable, religious, academic, and educational institutions. During the past seven years, there has been a proliferation of radical Islamic groups hiding under false cover using 501 c(3) and other non-profit status. Every year, scores of new organizations receive non-profit charity status to raise millions of dollars annually to fund their "charitable" arms in the Middle East such as Hamas hospitals, schools and religious institutions. (It is through this Hamas social welfare infrastructure in which Hamas recruits new followers and cultivates its selection of soon to be terrorists.) Although some observers have contended that the social- welfare arm of Hamas is innocent, the fact is that these Hamas institutions are designed to bring the population at large under their influence and control. Sometimes the monies raised go directly to purchase weapons and military supplies, although most of the time the tax-free money raised in the United States goes to underwrite the socialwelfare budgets of groups like Hamas, freeing up local funds for terrorist operations since money is fungible. The locations of the radical groups span the entire United States. Certain areas are known to have larger concentrations of Islamic radicals and are the sites of offices of Islamic militant groups that raise funds, recruit new members, disseminate propaganda, and in some cases, recruit terrorists, provide military training and even direct terrorist operations back in the Middle East. These areas include Chicago, Boston, Los Angeles, Santa Clara, New York, Washington, D.C./northem Virginia, North Carolina, Miami, Tampa, Dallas, Oklahoma City, San Diego, Orlando, Arizona, Kansas and New Jersey

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 290 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 2:06 PM
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.... probable cause exists that Abu Marzook knew of Hamas's plan to carry out violent, murderous attacks, that he selected the leadership and supplied the money to enable the attacks to take place, and that such attacks were, therefore, a foreseeable consequence of the conspiracy. The evidence against Marzook came from a variety of sources including: American retrieval of Marzook's U.S. banking records showing payments to Hamas subordinates and couriers; internal Hamas documents and records verified by American intelligence; Marzook's own public statements taking credit for "martyrdom" and other terrorist operations; and a voluminous amount of information provided by Muhammad Salah, a Chicago-based used car salesman appointed by Marzook as head of llamas' worldwide military wing. Salah's information, was in turn confirmed by documents in his possession and by information provided by other Hamas terrorists arrested by Israel. Salah was arrested in Israel on January 25, 1993, in possession of approximately $97,000 in cash, intended for distribution to members of Hamas. In scores of hours of conversations with other inmates and in a freely written confession in Arabic, Salah explained in detail the entire history and infrastructure of the Hamas organization, whose primary financial and political headquarters were based out of the United States and Great Britain

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 291 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 2:10 PM
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The Holy Land Foundation The Holy Land Foundation was founded as a non-profit charity in 1987 in Richardson, Texas. Although Holy Land Foundation claims merely to be concerned with global crisis and with the Palestinian cause, it is an active Hamas supporter, and acts as a financial conduit for Hamas. In addition, the Holy Land Foundation strives to legitimate Hamas' activities by putting a humanitarian veneer on supporting terrorist activity in the Middle East. Evidence strongly suggests that the Holy Land Foundation provides a crucial financial service for Hamas - family annuities to suicide bombers. These annuities assure a constant flow of suicide volunteers, and buttress a terrorist infrastructure heavily reliant on moral support of the Palestinian populace. In the words of its literature, Holy Land Foundation supports "families of detainees, deportees and martyrs." In its publications, the Holy Land Foundation solicits tax deductible contributions for charitable causes. Yet, some of that money is forwarded to Hamas organizations which use that money either to support military squads or to indoctrinate Muslim youth with radical Islamic ideology. On May 6, 1997, the Israel Ministry of Defense issued a decree, which shut down the local office of Holy Land Foundation, and its director is currently on trial after being arrested for furthering terrorist activities. Confiscated documents along with the confession of the director indicate that Holy Land Foundation is a Hamas fundraising front that channels money from its Richardson, Texas office to its Israeli office in support of llamas terrorists activity in the Middle East. Both Holy Land Foundation and Hamas are officially committed to assisting the families of "martyrs." Holy Land Foundation is explicit in its literature concerning the targets of their fundraising campaigns, which include orphans, widows, and the bereaved families of martyrs. A Holy Land Foundation pamphlet distributed at the Muslim Arab Youth Association conference in Dayton, Ohio in December of 1996 enumerates how it alleviates the suffering of the destitute Palestinian population: "Poor Family Assistance, aiding distressed families of detainees, deportees, martyrs and other impoverished families to be uplifted to a more mainstream life."32 During a Ramadan charity drive, Holy Land Foundation distributed pamphlets that explained who its principal beneficiaries should be: "Cold...Hungry... Sick...Sad...words that are not normally associated with Ramadan! But this is the case for many Palestinian families. They have lost their bread-winners who are now dead, detained, or deported. They are hurting so much now, So won't you help their pain if you can?" The accompanying pledge card read: "Yes. I can and want to help needy families of Palestinian martyrs, prisoners and deportees"33 (emphasis added). Furthermore, the Holy Land Foundation has declared its intention to provide more financial assistance to the families of suicide bombers for financial assistance

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 292 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 2:16 PM
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" Dr. Ibrahim al-Yazuri is one of the founders of llamas. In an interview published in the January 1998 edition of the London-based magazine Filastin al-Muslimah, al-Yazuri analyzed the role of social work in the framework of the Islamic Resistance Movement. AI-Yazuri stated that "Hamas is a Palestinian jihad movement that strives for the liberation of all Palestine - from the (Mediterranean) sea to the river (Jordan), from the north to the south - from the tyrannical Israeli occupation... Social work is carried out in support of this aim, and it is considered to be part of the Hamas movement's strategy. The important thing is that Hamas engages in its sacred struggle against the forces of evil and the Israeli usurpation." A1-Yazuri continued: The Hamas movement is concerned about its individuals and its elements, especially those who engage in the blessed jihad against the hateful Israeli occupation, since they are subjected to detention or martyrdom. The movement takes care of their families and their children and provides them with as much material and moral support as it can. This is one of the fundamental truths of Islamic work, and thus represents the duties of the Islamic states.., in accordance with the word of God's Prophet, God bless him and grant him salvation, which means: 'He who looks after the family of one who has gone to fight has himself fought. Among the types of activities Hamas provides, according to al-Yazuri, are for example, assistance to orphans in Gaza and "study essentials" to "needy students and sons of martyrs." He also noted the "pure social role" that Hamas plays, such as Islamic singing and celebration groups. The purpose of all this activity, stated al-Yazuri, is "attracting and winning support and blessing from our Palestinian people on the street for the Hamas movement."

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Author: exwa Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 293 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 2:50 PM
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sources please sano...

sounds a lot like pipes and emerson to me...not exactly unbiased sources...

e

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Author: exwa Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 294 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 3:02 PM
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"excess spawn "

================

back to this just for a moment.

sano - how many palestinians do you know?

how many people do you know who have ever been to see the conditions of the people within the territories?

you say "israel only acts in self defense." was sharon's visit to the masjid in jerusalem to plant the israeli flag in the middle of it an act of self defense? do you consider the illegal building of the settlements an act of self defense?

but what bothered me most was your use of the word "spawn," as if the palestinian children are nothing more than roaches which need to be exterminated. are western children not "spawn?" do you even have any children of your own? these are HUMAN BEINGS we are talking about here! they are born innocent...and are innocent of the crimes of their forefathers even IF their father was a suicide bomber...even if their parents lack access to cheap birth control and they are one of 12...they deserve the right to live as much as anyone else in this world.

the children are the greatest victims here. all the children of the world who suffer, no matter where. one life is not worth more than another even if it is better dressed and fed. children are not spawn...and if you think they are i think you should catch the next flight to tel aviv, catch a bus to gaza, look in their faces, and refer to them as such in front of their families.

e

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 295 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 3:28 PM
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sano - how many palestinians do you know?
None.

how many people do you know who have ever been to see the conditions of the people within the territories?


Actually I know a lot of people who have lived and worked in Israel.

And I have been to equally dismal areas in Mexico and Cenral America.

but what bothered me most was your use of the word "spawn,"

OK. Fair enough. Tell me what words you prefer that describes rampant overpopulation which results in squalor.

nothing more than roaches which need to be exterminated.

No, E. That's the position of the Brazilians. I favor religions spreading the wisdom of birth control. Birth control instead of suicide bombers.

are western children not "spawn?"

I won't get sucked into a tit for tat discussion. Any population which fails to control its population will suffer the consequences, regardless of how tragic the process. Witness Somalia, Brazil, and all of the other populations out of control.

I'm just discussing a situation that tragically exists.

the children are the greatest victims here

I wholeheartedly agree. It's tragic. Where is the common sense?

children are not spawn...

Then why are they being treated as such...with such callous disregard by their own governments??? Shame on Hamas for strapping explosives to their children. Shame on the Brazilians for deathsquads gunning down "street urchins" (not my words). Shame on madrassas for sending brainwashed children to miserable deaths.








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Author: exwa Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 296 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 3:29 PM
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Actually I know a lot of people who have lived and worked in Israel.

===============

get to know some who live and "try" to work in the territories.

e

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 297 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 3:38 PM
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i think you should catch the next flight to tel aviv, catch a bus to gaza, look in their faces, and refer to them as such in front of their families.


Will it look any different than the cardboard shanty towns surrounding Tijuana , Rio , or Mexico city? No!

Will a baby yanked from a Mexican trash can look any different than an Israeli baby destroyed by a Hamas suicide bomber? Will it look any less tragic than a Somalian baby that starved to death?

The ravages of poverty and overpopulation are heartbreaking anywhere you see it. And I've seen plenty of it.

And the toll of overpopulation on the planet is , to me, the most heartbreaking thing of all. Of all the species on the planet, the only one capable of controlling its spawn is the human, and in that context I defend my choice of words.

The humans are spawning out of control.



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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 298 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 3:55 PM
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Very quick, E!

Steven Emerson before the Senate Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology, and Government Information, on February 24, 1998. It was obtained through the Federal News Service via the Library of Congress.

The text is well documented... check out the footnotes. The footnotes cite many Islamic sources

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/6453/emerson.html

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 299 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 4:03 PM
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How about the Federation of American Scientists? Reliable? Biased?

The HAMAS - like its parent organization - the "Muslim Brotherhood"

aims to create a religious-civic infrastructure in the following areas:

aid to the poor, education, health, society and religion. Building this

foundation has been the organization's goal since its founding in the

territories, and this network of institutions is the source of the

movement's strength, and provides the ability to recruit operatives,

including suicide attackers.



2. Alongside its overt civic activity, HAMAS engages in covert terrorist activity.



3. HAMAS raises funds through a complex network of organizations. While

the majority of these outwardly claim to support religious or civic

activities, this charity ("zakath") is also awarded to operatives, the

families of terrorists killed, and the terrorism apparatus. In effect,

there is no distinction between HAMAS' civic and terrorist activities.



4. HAMAS' Islamic activity is conducted on several levels - according toa recently distributed manifesto. The movement calls increased efforts intwo of these - "public activity" and "jihad" (i.e: terrorist attacks).



5. Since the implementation of Palestinian autonomy, HAMAS' civic

activity has increased with the following goals in mind:



a. short-term goal: to maintain its power and to hold its own opposite

the institutions of the PA.



b. long-term goal: to expand its power-base and to present a possible

alternative to the PA government as part of its larger struggle

against it and the peace process.



6. From the start, the PA has regarded HAMAS' civic infrastructure as a

threat which could erode its own authority and influence. Accordingly, it

has created systems of supervision, control and checks on HAMAS' civic

institutions.



7. In trying to limit the organization's activity following the

February-March 1996 attacks, the PA took several decisive steps against

HAMAS's financial base. They shut down several important charitable

organizations and confiscated documents, equipment and funds from others.

Heads of charitable associations were arrested.



8. These measures, alongside the Israeli crackdown on the Islamic

movement in Um al-Fahm and Nazareth, significantly crippled HAMAS'

activity and the regular flow of its funds.



9. With the opening of new channels for the transfer of funds and an

easing of the PA's restricitive measures from the middle of 1996 onwards,

HAMAS' charitable associations renewed their activity and funds were

transferred to them in greater amounts.



10. The PA's activity vis-a-vis HAMAS has followed a pattern of placing

HAMAS activities under an official Palestinian rubric, subordinating them

to the Palestinian Interior Ministry under the "Charitable Associations"

Law (not yet ratified.)



11. HAMAS' community aid activity takes place through charity and welfare

associations identified with the movement, whether founded by HAMAS or

earlier by the "Muslim Brotherhood", or taken over by HAMAS from within.

Today this activity is organized under the "Islamic National Salvation

Party" which operates with the PA's permission.



12. HAMAS maintains charitable bodies in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and

the Gaza Strip.



13. HAMAS community aid focuses primarily on providing assistance to the

families of terrorists killed or injured, as well as prisoners and their

families. Such aid is often described as "aid to orphans and the needy."



14. It is believed that some of the charitable funds have been diverted to

financing terrorist attacks.



15. HAMAS' other activities include: an extensive education network,

massive activity in institutions of higher education, distribution of

basic foodstuffs "for the holidays," youth camps, sports, care for the

elderly, scholarships, sponsorship of light industry, and religious

services under HAMAS sponsorship. The mosques are used to disseminate

HAMAS positions, recruit operatives and conceal weapons, etc.



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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 300 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 4:06 PM
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The Federation of American Scientists conducts analysis and advocacy on science, technology and public policy, including national security, nuclear weapons, arms sales, biological hazards, secrecy, education technology, information technology, energy and the environment. FAS is a privately-funded non-profit 501c3 organization whose Board of Sponsors includes 58 of America's Nobel laureates in the sciences.
FAS was founded as the Federation of Atomic Scientists in 1945 by members of the Manhattan Project who produced the first atomic bomb, to address the implications and dangers of the nuclear age. FAS is the oldest organization dedicated to ending the worldwide arms race, achieving complete nuclear disarmament, and avoiding the use of nuclear weapons, and much of its work has been in nuclear arms control and disarmament.

FAS combines the scholarly resources of its scientists with a knowledge of practical politics. FAS is uniquely qualified to bring the scientific perspective to the legislative arena through direct lobbying, membership and grassroots work, and expert testimony at Congressional hearings. FAS is administered by its President, Dr. Henry Kelly who also serves as a senior staff member and director of research. The Federation's primary publication is the


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Author: exwa Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 301 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 4:10 PM
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Steven Emerson before the Senate Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on Terrorism

====================

there's really no point in going back and forth on this any longer. you have obviously bought the israeli line in full, and are not aware of the smear campaign emerson has been waging against islam for years. there is always another side to the story, and holy land foundation has denied the allegations made against it: http://www.hlf.org/ and this should all be reviewed in an unbiased court of law before anyone makes a final determination.

get to know the other side. get to know the people. don't take everything you see at face value. question and question and question some more. be fair to all sides...and give all sides a chance to speak to you.

e

(and a little link on emerson: http://www.fair.org/extra/9901/emerson.html . scroll down to the section on the tampa accusations and you'll find there are some holes.)

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Author: exwa Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 302 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 4:13 PM
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hey, you want a little irony....

guess who originally sponsored the creation of hamas and islamic jihad...

israel.

e

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 303 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 6:06 PM
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http://web.nps.navy.mil/~library/tgp/hamas.htm

HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)
From: Patterns of Global Terrorism, 2000. United States Department of State, April 2001.

Comments on the content of the material should be sent to the U.S. Department of State

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Description
Formed in late 1987 as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Various HAMAS elements have used both political and violent means, including terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel. Loosely structured, with some elements working clandestinely and others working openly through mosques and social service institutions to recruit members, raise money, organize activities, and distribute propaganda. HAMAS's strength is concentrated in the Gaza Strip and a few areas of the West Bank. Also has engaged in peaceful political activity, such as running candidates in West Bank Chamber of Commerce elections.

Activities
HAMAS activists, especially those in the Izz el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks--including large-scale suicide bombings--against Israeli civilian and military targets. In the early 1990s, they also targeted suspected Palestinian collaborators and Fatah rivals. Claimed several attacks during the unrest in late 2000.

Strength
Unknown number of hardcore members; tens of thousands of supporters and sympathizers.

Location/Area of Operation
Primarily the occupied territories, Israel. In August 1999, Jordanian authorities closed the group's Political Bureau offices in Amman, arrested its leaders, and prohibited the group from operating on Jordanian territory.

External Aid
Receives funding from Palestinian expatriates, Iran, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other moderate Arab states. Some fundraising and propaganda activity take place in Western Europe and North America.



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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 304 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 6:19 PM
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Hamas supports the documents you object to! From the river to the sea, wipe out the Zionists! How much more clear could it be?

http://www.palestine-info.com/hamas/

Hamas is a Jihadi (fighting for a holy purpose) movement in the broad sense of the word Jihad. It is part of the Islamic awakening movement and upholds that this awakening is the road which will lead to the liberation of Palestine from the river to the sea.

It is also a popular movement in the sense that it is a practical manifestation of a wide popular current that is deeply rooted in the ranks of the Palestinian people and the Islamic nation.


So much for the claim that they aren't a very religious people. They claim otherwise.

The Hamas movement groups in its ranks all those who believe in its ideology and principles and all who are prepared to endure the consequences of the conflict and to confront the Zionist scheme.

Hamas seeks to reinforce the joint national action, and believes that the framework for such an action should rest on a commitment to work for the liberation of Palestine and to refuse to recognize the Zionist enemy or to give it the right to exist on any part of Palestine.


Bad news for Jews.



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Author: exwa Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 305 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 6:41 PM
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sano,

i don't know why you are going on about hamas...i was speaking in defense of the holy land foundation...not the suicide bombers of hamas.

can we let this drop?

e

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Author: Assamlaksa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 306 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 9:45 PM
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I am calling for a fatwa which would declare the "nutcases" and the suicide bombing groups to be "persona non grata".

I don't disagree with the reasoning behind your argument. But I am still not sure that a Fatwa should be used for this purpose.

The main intention of a Fatwa is to clarify Islamic law. It is a religious edict. For example, a Fatwa might be issued on such diverse subjects as:

1. Is it permissible for Muslims to take drugs;
2. Is it permissible for Muslims to fly on planes to Mecca for the Haj;
3. Is it permissible for Muslims to play computer games.

Obviously these things are not mentioned in the Qur'an as they were not issues at the time of the Qur'an. Accordingly, scholars look for comparable issues in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. For example, on the issue of drugs, scholars will refer to the prohibitions on alcohol as they are of a comparable nature.

I am not sure how declaring a terrorist "persona non grata", is an issue that should be encompassed by a Fatwa.

Also, I don't think a Fatwa is effective anyway. There are thousands of Fatwas, Muslims completely ignore as they don't agree with them. Any scholar can issue a Fatwa, but you don't have to autmotically agree with them. For example, there are Fatwa's saying that Muslims shouldn't listen to music, play computer games etc. These are Fatwa's issued by conservative scholars. I don't agree with them, so I ignore them.

There are better ways of declaring someone "persona non grata" without it being done by a Fatwa. Osama Bin Laden is persona non grata in all Islamic countries. That was done by refusing him entry into Muslim countries, and preventing any financial support for his organisation. Issuing a Fatwa would not have had any affect.

I think "Fatwa" is like "Jihad" in that they are words that the media has seized on as being something exotic, sinister and barbaric. However, the actual meaning of the words are very different to how they are portrayed in the press.





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Author: Assamlaksa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 307 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 11:26 PM
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Hi Sano

Hamas supports the documents you object to! From the river to the sea, wipe out the Zionists! How much more clear could it be?

All religions have extremists. Here are some Jewish ones:

WWW.JTF.org
WWW.Kahane.org
WWW.Newkach.org
WWW.JDL.org
WWW.Masada2000.org

They believe that all non Jews (i.e including Christians) should be driven out of Israel. Accordingly, Islam does not have a monopoly on extremism.

I don't believe that the above organisations in any way represent mainstream Jewish thought. Similarly Hamas and Islamic Jihad shouldn't be viewed as representing mainstream Islamic thought.

The fact is most Muslims are not even Arabs. They are Asian. The most populous Muslim countries are Indonesia, Bangladesh and Pakistan. The overwhelming majority of Muslims in those countries do not support Hamas and Islamic Jihad. I doubt whether the majority of Arab Muslims support Hamas and Islamic Jihad (with the probable exception of the Palestinians). Arab countries such as Egypt and Jordan support the right of Israel to exist. Accordingly, the days of "driving the Jews into the sea" type rhetoric is thankfully disappearing. Some extremists still hold that view, but they are extremists.









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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 308 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 11:39 PM
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i don't know why you are going on about hamas...

I don't remember...

i was speaking in defense of the holy land foundation...not the suicide bombers of hamas.

Now I remember! You were defending an organization which supports Hamas, and I wanted to know how and where the money went. I learned a lot! Never expected to read so much about Hamas and HLF. And, as you implore... question question question.

can we let this drop?

Sure. Finding the Hamas home page was a real eye opener; solidified my understanding of the relationship between Hamas and HLF.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 309 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/18/2001 11:55 PM
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But I am still not sure that a Fatwa should be used for this purpose

Perhaps you are right! This is all quite ethereal to me.

Fatwa is to clarify Islamic law. It is a religious edict.

It is an edict based on Islamic law?... kind of like an injunction?

Also, I don't think a Fatwa is effective anyway.

I'm beginning to understand that. That Salomon Rushdie is such a sucker... he thought it was something to fret. LOL.

There are thousands of Fatwas, Muslims completely ignore as they don't agree with them.

So, Islam is kinda like smorgasbord? Take what you like and forget the rest! Whatever tastes good. Whatever is convenient?

I think "Fatwa" is like "Jihad" in that they are words that the media has seized on as being something exotic, sinister and barbaric.

Reading numerous Islamic publications I think I have a very realistic understanding of the various meanings of the words fatwa and jihad. It all depends on what type of Muslim is using the word.









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Author: Assamlaksa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 310 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/19/2001 12:26 AM
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I think you are misinterpreting what is a Fatwa.

A Muslim scholar in Singapore can issue a Fatwa. However, whether the rest of the world follows the Fatwa is a completely seperate issue. A fatwah is more of an opinion on an issue. For example, a Christian priest may have state that in his opinion homosexuality is not a sin. However, that doesn't mean that worldwide Christians must now blindly accept that opinion.

It is no different to a Fatwah. Just because some scholar in Saudi Arabia says that I can't listen to music, doesn't mean I have to blindly follow his views.

Blind acceptance of a scholars opinion would be extremely dangerous. The ultimate authority for Islam is the Qur'an and the Hadith. Opinions of scholars should be read, but they shouldn't be blindly followed and they certainly shouldn't be followed if they contradict the Qur'an and the Hadith. For example, I don't care if a Fatwah is issued calling Rushie's murder. As it directly contravenes the Qur'an, I am not going to muder Rushdie.

Think of a Fatwah in terms of someone's opinion. They may be right, they may be wrong. All religions are subject to interpretation. It is no different in Christianity where you get different sects interpreting the religion in different ways.

The Amish are a Christian group that don't believe in using any modern appliances. However, just because that is their opinion, does it mean you should destroy your TV and computer and follow their way (if I don't receive a response I will assume that you have done just that)? It is no different in Islam. There are many different interpretations of exactly the same book. This cannot be avoided.










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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 312 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/19/2001 9:19 AM
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I think you are misinterpreting what is a Fatwa.

Other sources have led me to believe that in prewdomnately muslim states fatwas are often incorporated into the prayers/sermons by the mullahs. If a fatwah can be repeated often enough it gains credibility.

The Amish are a Christian group that don't believe in ....It is no different in Islam

Now you are confusing me. I know no Amish. Closest I been is a Harrison Ford movie. Do the Amish pick and choose which parts of the religions rules are convenient on a person to person basis? Or is there a wider acceptance of a consistent set?


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Author: Assamlaksa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 313 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/19/2001 10:28 PM
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Other sources have led me to believe that in prewdomnately muslim states fatwas are often incorporated into the prayers/sermons by the mullahs.

If that is true, I didn't know that. It is not done by mosques in Singapore and I don't believe it is done in either Malaysia, Brunei or Indonesia (which are predominately Muslim states).

But even if it is done in Muslim states, I am not sure what is the issue. A Fatwah is a religious interpretation. If a Christian priest gets up in front of his congregation and says that John 14:16 means .........(insert interpretation) is that a big deal? I am sure it is done all the time. Priests must interpret the Bible or they would have nothing to say other than simply reading out passages of the Bible.
A Fatwah is essential the same thing. It is a religious interpretation given by a scholar.

If you feel that the priest is talking nonsense and his interpretation is not supported by the Bible, surely you wouldn't still just blindly follow the priest's views no matter what. At the end of the day, it is the scripture that takes precedent rather than some priests individual interpretation. The scripture is considered infallible, whereas a human's interpretations can (and often are) wrong. Its the same in Islam. I am not going to just go around blindly following every Fatwa issued. Especially if I don't believe that they are supported by the Qur'an and the Hadith. Like why would I want to kill Salman Rushdie. Murder is a sin in Islam, so I am going to ignore a Fatwah calling for his death.

Now you are confusing me. I know no Amish. Closest I been is a Harrison Ford movie. Do the Amish pick and choose which parts of the religions rules are convenient on a person to person basis? Or is there a wider acceptance of a consistent set?

Perhaps the Amish was a bad example. All I was trying to illustrate is that all religions have people who interpret the same matters differently. A better example would be the Christian Fools Board. They are always arguing about various interpretations of verses of the Bible. And it is not just protestant versus catholic etc. It is often catholics disagreeing with other catholics and protestants disagreeing with other protestants.











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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 316 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/20/2001 9:24 AM
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At the end of the day, it is the scripture that takes precedent rather than some priests individual interpretation. The scripture is considered infallible, whereas a human's interpretations can (and often are) wrong. Its the same in Islam. I am not going to just go around blindly following every Fatwa issued.

OK, that makes sense. It's just that I have heard so many times a Muslim say that whent hey are not sure what the Koran means they turn to the wise ones. Hence there seems to be a tend to defer judgement until a more learned source has "ruled."

I'm having a hard time coming to grips with the overall concept of a united group of anarchists. "We all do what we think is right with our groups interpretation of the good book being the right one. Our bad brothers have mis-interpreted the good book, but they are our brothers, and we will support the groups we have in common with the bad brothers."

Seems to be saying to me... "I am not responsible for the bad eggs; the actions of the bad guys, but I understand why the bad guys are doing what they are doing, and you need to accomodate the goals of the bad guys."



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Author: Assamlaksa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 320 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/20/2001 10:02 AM
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It's just that I have heard so many times a Muslim say that whent hey are not sure what the Koran means they turn to the wise ones. Hence there seems to be a tend to defer judgement until a more learned source has "ruled."

Its only natural to ask the experts if you don't understand something. Christians do the same when they don't understand something in the Bible. However, one shouldn't be so naive as to believe everything that you are told.

"We all do what we think is right with our groups interpretation of the good book being the right one. Our bad brothers have mis-interpreted the good book, but they are our brothers, and we will support the groups we have in common with the bad brothers."

I don't think it is fair to put it that way. I consider Arabs as my brothers. But I don't support those that are terrorists. Just as I am sure that you wouldn't support Christians who are members of the KKK or other race hate groups.

I am not responsible for the bad eggs; the actions of the bad guys, but I understand why the bad guys are doing what they are doing, and you need to accomodate the goals of the bad guys

The entire world community (including America) recognises that the Palestinians have a fair goal (an independent Palestine) and that the Israeli's must accomodate them. Most of the Islamic world community would disgree with the murder of innocent people as the means in which to achieve those goals. Accordingly, the majority of Muslims think no differently to non Muslims.

I suspect you are generalising that we all think like Palestinian terrorists. This is not the case. I don't have any sympathy for Hamas or Islamic Jihad and I deplore the killing of innocent civilians as a means to achieve their goals. Most Muslims would feel the same way.


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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 321 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/20/2001 11:47 AM
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Just as I am sure that you wouldn't support Christians who are members of the KKK or other race hate groups.

This must be a colloquial "you" because I am either atheist or agnostic depending on the weather.

I consider Arabs as my brothers. But I don't support those that are terrorist

I consider all humans to be my brothers. Some are good, some are not so good.

The entire world community (including America) recognises that the Palestinians have a fair goal

Bunk. Flat out untrue.

I suspect you are generalising that we all think like Palestinian terrorists.

No, but I see a large percentage of Muslims turning a blind eye to the facts when the facts don't serve the Islamic cause.

Again, a solid justification for separation of shurch and state.

Again, I am neither Christian, Jew, or Muslim; just an independent observer, calling them like I see them. I have little interest in religion except as it impacts the world from an environmental and financial standpoint. E doesn't like this callous disregard for the human population, but that's ok. The human population is in no danger of collapse as long as weapons of mass destruction are kept out of the hands of zealots

If I were an umpire in the middle east I'd be thowing yellow flags left and right. The Israelis are no saints, to be sure, but I'd have thrown a more of the palestinian team out of the game.


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Author: Assamlaksa Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 322 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/21/2001 2:07 AM
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This must be a colloquial "you" because I am either atheist or agnostic depending on the weather.

Sorry, I thought you were Christian. There is an athiest board at TMF. It can be quite fun as most athiests have a good sense of humour. I am often over there.

I consider all humans to be my brothers. Some are good, some are not so good.

Yes, I agree with you.

Bunk. Flat out untrue

Why do you say that? The US supports the creation of an independent Palestine. So does the European community and I think so does the rest of the world. This is the goal of the Palestinian authority. I am not talking about the goals of Hamas or Islamic Jihad.

a solid justification for separation of shurch and state.

Turkey is a secular country. Malaysia and Indonesia are close to being secular countries. Personally, I would prefer this. So I would agree with you on this point.



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Author: pyrlifenash One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 326 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 12/21/2001 12:26 PM
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From the viewpoint of a (somewhat weakly) practicing Protestant Christian, then, I see that a "fatwah" is received by Muslims in much the same way that a "papal bull" is received by a Protestant, or in the case of this one (at least), a pronouncement made by the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Moromon Prophet, Billy Graham, etc. If I agree with them in a point of Biblical intertpretation, then fine. If not, then I just disagree with them and go on with my life.

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Author: Caesium Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 395 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 2/15/2002 5:09 AM
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what the palestinian people need is a "ghandi" of sorts to rise from their own ranks...who can lead them to take the higher moral road...and hopefully through righteousness they can regain their dignity and rights. so far we haven't seen any such person...i pray there is one out there somewhere who will show his or her face soon.

This was posted in December 2001, so far there is still no one coming forward that fits the bill. The current view is the hardline tactics being played out by Israel and tacitly supported by the US is that this is the end game for Arafat as the leader.
Unless he changes dramatically his policies on Hamas et al he will be gone soon.
So who takes over?

In the same post exwa said this:
truth is, what i hear from people who are either from palestine, or who have family there is that the majority of the people are not very religious.

In an Islamic country how can the people not be religious when their laws and practices are built upon the religion?

Caesium

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Author: exwa Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 397 of 1660
Subject: Re: Fatwa Date: 2/15/2002 6:32 AM
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good morning caesium...

i still have another question on the board to answer...but have a bit of research to do first. things are getting difficult at home, but i will try to address your questions as best i can.

you ask: "In an Islamic country how can the people not be religious when their laws and practices are built upon the religion?"

first of all the palestinians do not have an official "islamic" government. their laws and practices (from a political perspective) are not built on the religion as far as i know.

second, one can not legislate belief in God, or sincere practice of a religion. a person can be compelled to attend a masjid for fear of a beating (although this does not happen in palestine), but that does not mean there is any desire in his heart for worship of God.

the fact of the matter is that only a very small percentage of muslims are even performing the 5 required daily prayers. i have heard as little as 5%. i believe that "loss of faith" is a large part of the problem for the world's muslims. this is how we end up with muslims who engage in highly unislamic behavior.

i used to find this all very strange and disturbing. i couldn't believe there were muslims who didn't pray, or who drank, or who engaged in premarital sex. then i realized that they are no different from the christians i have known all my life who are christian only in name. religion itself, or even spirituality, mean little to a great many in this world. there is only one member of my family who regularly attends church...and even with that...they are members with drinking and abuse problems.

so for those of us who seek nearness to our Creator, we let the others whirl. we must, for there is no way to "compel" anyone to have faith who does not want it. i believe on day the palestinians will have a righteous leader...we call him the mehdi...but until then...i pray for the suffering and hope those with the ability to make the situation better will...on all sides.

e

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