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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 41484  
Subject: Flu Shots Date: 11/17/2000 6:20 PM
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I just received a newsletter in the mail that has a "Cold & Flu Special Report: Influenza Facts" article. Ok, first I want to point out that this newsletter is a bi-monthly newsletter called "Get Well." I am not a subscriber. It is a "sample issue" but in actuality is an advertisement as you can get a free subscription if you purchase any of the companies products. So, that's a disclaimer there. (oh & by the way, the front page attempts to scare you with predictions about how many people will die from the flu this year).

Ok, things I found interesting and am curious about:

1) "Medical doctors literally guess at which virueses they think might come around this year because the vaccines have to be prepared up to a year in advance. Even if they were exactly right with their guess of which virus blend to brew to put in the shot, and even got the right proportions, that still doesn't account for the new kids on the block! Influenza vaccine history shows that often even if they guessed right, that the virus mutates during the year rendering the "flu shot" impotent and you still get the new mutated virus."

2) Injecting blends of viruses into your body can also be very dangerous... (he goes into how the swine flu vaccine made people sicker than the swine flu itself)...This was because Influenza vaccines can cause Guillain-Barre Syndrome, the immediate inflammatory destruction of the nerve sheath which causes rapid paralysis that paralyzed many that got the swine flu vaccine. All vaccines can also cause life threatening and lethal allergic reactions."



Any comments on this? Anyone here either get or refuse to get flu shots? This guy basically says they should only be used for people at a high risk of getting a flu (anyone over 50, young children, or people with a chronic disease .
Ok, what about everyone else? "The only safe & effective defense to INfluenza is having a strong offense, a strong immune system that can kill and make antibodies for any new virus that ever existed and any new one that mutates. The key to a strong immune system is a healthy lifestyle. It also can't hurt to have some potent herbal tonics around that will knock the socks off any virus like Echinacea anf Garlic."

The entire rest of the newsletter is devoted to descriptions of the companies herbal tonics etc. In my opinion, stuff you can basically buy yourself a lot chaeper than they offer their products for. Much of it is the same as we have discussed in the what to do about a cold thread.
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Author: JABoa Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6689 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/17/2000 8:45 PM
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As to the first point, I think that is true. I think it is now understood that new strains of flu -- and there are several each year -- are developed in semi-domesticated ducks who live in rice paddies in China. Because of the exchange of manure, there are oodles of chances for the viruses to be transferred to humans. The vaccine people are always behind in figuring out what will be coming next; and also I think vaccine can become stale so you can't be too early.

As to the second, that is also true. There are some children who are crippled or worse each year by polio vaccine, and by the measles/mumps/scarlet fever/whooping cough combo vaccine. But, the alternative, which is to let a lot of children die, seems worse to me. (I believe that children who are harmed by mandatory vaccination are not now compensated. This is clearly wrong.)

The key to a strong immune system is a healthy lifestyle. Not so. The great pandemic of 1918 proved that. It killed maybe 20 million people worldwide (nobody knows for sure), perhaps triple all those killed in battle in all of World War I. When whole farm families in Iowa dropped dead within 2 days, it wasn't because of any dissolute living.

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6690 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/17/2000 9:18 PM
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"I think it is now understood that new strains of flu -- and there are several each year -- are developed in
semi-domesticated ducks who live in rice paddies in China. "

How do you know these things????? I always wonder :-)

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6691 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/17/2000 9:21 PM
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"The key to a strong immune system is a healthy lifestyle. Not so. The great pandemic of 1918 proved that. It killed maybe 20 million people worldwide (nobody knows for sure), perhaps triple all those killed in battle in all of World War I. When whole farm families in Iowa dropped dead within 2 days, it wasn't because of any dissolute living. "

I tend to agree with you. While a healthy immune system is a big plus, I don't think its always enough. And like you point out, all of those people who died couldn't have all had weak immune systems!

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Author: Savagegrace Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6692 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/17/2000 9:48 PM
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There are two types of polio vaccine. One uses an active form of polio. An adult can get polio from their innoculated child with this form.

60 minutes just had a special on the combo vaccination MMR (?). It looks like it may cause retardation in childern.

That being said. Getting innoculated helps keeps the immune system in peak condition. How you will be affected is determined by what you have been hit with prior.

If you had a hit in the same body area or similar contagion, your immune system has a better chance of overcoming it.

I would NEVER take a vaccine that uses an active part.

I will be vaccinated once or twice a year for Life Extension. To jump-start the immune system.

GS

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Author: medgoddess Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6693 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/18/2000 7:31 AM
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2) Injecting blends of viruses into your body can also be very dangerous... (he goes into how the swine flu vaccine made people sicker than the swine flu itself)...This was because Influenza vaccines can cause Guillain-Barre Syndrome, the immediate inflammatory destruction of the nerve sheath which causes rapid paralysis that paralyzed many that got the swine flu vaccine. All vaccines can also cause life threatening and lethal allergic reactions."
************************************************
ARG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. Yes, we guess as to which flu strain to use. But I feel that some immunity (there some cross-immunity between strains) is better than none, especially for those populations that are at higher risk.
2. GBS is a RARE complication of vaccination. GBS is also potentially reversible (Andy Griffith had it at one time...you didn't see Matlock in a wheelchair, did you?).
3. Controlled studies have shown that the flu shot is effective at prevention, or failing that, it reduces the number of symptomatic days (in years we guess wrong for the virus). Sounds like good medicine to me. And I'd be willing to bet that it's cheaper than some of those herbals Catharine's newsletter is touting.
:)
One caveat - those allegic to eggs should not get it, since the virus is grown in eggs.
Kristi

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6694 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/18/2000 11:50 AM
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"And I'd be willing to bet that it's cheaper than some of those herbals Catharine's newsletter is touting.
:)"

Probably! The "cold & Flu Season Kit" Special costs $163!!!!! and saves you $41 :-)

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6696 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/18/2000 2:12 PM
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should only be used for people at a high risk of getting a flu (anyone over 50, young children, or people with a chronic disease.

Health care workers are another group targeted for flu shots.

A note as to allergic reactions: it can go beyond an allergy to eggs. Other than a relatively temporary allergy to strawberries that's been over for quite a few years, I have no food allergies. I began annual flu shots after I developed asthma 8 years ago, and had an allergic reaction somewhere around the 5th year--pronounced local redness and swelling that took quite some time to subside. No one could figure out what had produced my reaction, but the medical conclusion was--"no more flu shots."

Sheila

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Author: JABoa Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6697 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/18/2000 2:44 PM
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Given that there have been several flu-related topics on this thread, I'd like to recommend the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention site, www.cdc.gov. Those people are really good. Not only the site, which I haven't checked out thoroughly yet, but their professionalism in the field. As you may recall, they were able to isolate and identify the mysterious hantavirus that killed several people in isolated areas in the Southwest, within a month or 6 weeks. At the place I was working, you couldn't even get charge numbers set up in that amount of time to authorize who should work on what.

You want to go to Health Topics there. They also have sort of a front-page item on the scarcity of flu vaccine for this winter.

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6698 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/18/2000 3:21 PM
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"Given that there have been several flu-related topics on this thread, I'd like to recommend the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention site, www.cdc.gov. Those people are really good. Not only the site, which I haven't checked out thoroughly yet, but their professionalism in the field. As you may recall, they were able to isolate and identify the mysterious hantavirus that killed several people in isolated areas in the Southwest, within a month or 6 weeks. At the place I was working, you couldn't even get charge numbers set up in that amount of time to authorize who should work on what."

I'm currently reading a book called "Virus Henters of the C.D.C." by Joseph McCormick & Susan
Fisher-Hoch. Its a fascinating book that I'd recommend to anyone who is interested in how the C.D.C.
goes about hunting down viruses, researching them, trying to find cures and trying to prevent outbreaks from getting out of hand. Here's a bit from the back cover:

"Viruses are aggravated by any human activity that distrupts natural habitats. On the front lines of an ever shifting battleground, Dr. McCormick and Dr. Fisher_Hoch have come to see that it will take more than scientific research to curb the threat of viruses worldwide. Social conditions must also be considered - problems of overpopulation, poverty, urbanization - if we are ever to successfully eradicate, or at least minimize, the threat of viruses."

This book is actually about Level 4 viruses - the deadliest viruses - like Ebola, Lassa Fever, Crimean Congo Hemorrhagic Fever and Aids.

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Author: LynnHerron Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6704 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/19/2000 2:04 PM
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<There are some children who are crippled or worse each year by polio vaccine, and by the measles/mumps/scarlet fever/whooping cough combo vaccine. But, the alternative, which is to let a lot of children die, seems worse to me. (I believe that children who are harmed by mandatory vaccination are not now compensated. This is clearly wrong.)>

This is a really big issue JABoa. If your child has either of these vaccines and is OK, you tend to feel you have done your public and private duty by having your child vaccinated. BUT I've never known a parent of a vaccine damaged child (and in the past I've worked professionally with a number of such families)who felt the same way! And aggravating their feelings is the guilt of knowing that you personally chose to have your child vaccinated, the fact that you were advised to do so, and that all the evidence you'd come across seemed to suggest you should do so, doesn't count when you are left with a grossly damaged child and you know that you personally made a decision which left your child like this.

Until very recently both the medical and political professions have closed ranks against children (and their parents) who have been damaged in 'the public good'. I'm very pleased to say that the tide is turning and recently the UK government have abruptly changed policy, admitted that vaccine damage is for real, stated that for most individuals and for the overall public good vaccination is beneficial, but that a small number of individuals will be grossly personally damaged as a side effect of this 'public good' and that they and their families must receive proper compensation and help.

I'm glad you feel confident about vaccination. For myself I'm neither for nor against, I feel the jury is still out on this one and I pity anyone who has to make the decision on behalf of a small child rather than on behalf of themselves,

Lynn




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Author: JABoa Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6706 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/19/2000 3:34 PM
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LynnHerron, I can appreciate your #6704 in the abstract. I guess that sounds odd given that the harm caused to children from vaccines they are hurt by is concrete. I'm glad to hear about your second paragraph. So far as I know, compensation for injured children does not occur in this country, and that, to me, is clearly wrong. Given that we have coercion (like a child may not go to school without the shots), compensation has to be part of the bargain we make for public health for the vast majority.

That being said, the understandable second-guessing that a parent has, whose child has been harmed by a vaccine, has to be balanced by the second-guessing that would occur if the child is not vaccinated, catches the disease, and succumbs. I think you are old enough to know how bad polio was in the early 1950's. I escaped, but some people my very own age did not. Sometime about 10 years ago, evil and irresponsible preachers in the inner city preached against polio vaccinations, claiming it was a genocidal attempt by the white establishment, etc. As I recall, the result was more polio. I think it's better now because of the coercion. But I'm pretty sure a not inconsiderable number of children are living now with the debilitating consequences of not being vaccinated.

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6708 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/19/2000 6:17 PM
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<<I'm glad you feel confident about vaccination. For myself I'm neither for nor against, I feel the jury is still out on this one and I pity anyone who has to make the decision on behalf of a small child rather than on behalf of themselves,>>

The only jury that is out is the anti vaccination one. While it's true that adverse reactions are now more of a concern than consequences of the disease (at least in the US)this is because of the low prevalence of these childhood diseases in a well immunised population.

When my daughter was a nipper (early 80s) we still lived in the UK and immunisation levels were at an all time low, owing to a media blitz on adverse reactions. We personally knew quite a few families with children with whooping cough...some pretty severe. Although we weren't immune to media hype, we still had the daughter fully immunised...which at the time was diptheria, measles, tetanus etc,...no mumps (not adopted till around 1984)and no rubella (no MMR till late 80s, I understand....prior to that immunisation at around age 8 and girls only)

Anecdotally...

The daughter got mumps and she's never, ever been so sick and in pain.

I caught German Measles in about 1978 during one of the many epidemics England suffered until quite recently...in spite of catching it as a child and also having my antibody titre measured prior to clinical work as a dental student...thankfully, not pregnant.

Treated a couple of children as a dental resident who were brain damaged from Whooping Cough.

In 10 years of general (not pediatric) practice, had 3 families with children who were profoundly retarded, deaf etc. as a result of maternal rubella infection...2 more cases than my daughter's US pediatrician has ever seen in approx 20 years of clinical practice.

Also countries such as Sweden and Norway that discontinued many of the childhood immunisation programmes in the late 80s, now experience epidemics of diseases that had virtually disappeared.

I don't believe that the anti immunisation lobby is particularly large here in the US....but it's certainly vocal. Worries me a bit.

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Author: highlandspring One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6714 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/20/2000 12:02 PM
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We do indeed have a Vaccine Injury Compensation Program here in the US. See the CDC site for this, and an overview of vaccine safety:

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/#VICP

It scares me that in the last 40 years ago, we have forgotten the devastation that these diseases cause, particularly to children.

Go to your local pioneer cemetary, and look at the ages of the people who died, or look at a few family trees, and look at the numbers of children who died at less than 5 years of age. Talk to people in their 60s and 70s and see if they know people who died from these diseases before you don't immunize your children. Talk to a few older pediatricians. Or talk to a pediatrician from a third world country where they don't have a good national vaccination program.

Very rarely the oral polio vaccine (OPV, a live vaccine) mutates and causes polio. A child who has been vaccinated with OPV should be kept away from older adults who have never been vaccinated.

Many of the children who got polio from the vaccine in the US in recent years have congenital defects in their immune system. An example is patients with as XLA or X-linked agammaglobulinemia, who do not produce antibodies. We are lucky to be able to keep them alive with gamma globulin and other treatments in this day and age. The recent change from OPV to IPV for childhood polio in December 1999 was to prevent these few cases of vaccine-associated paralytic polio.

Yes, I will get flu vaccine. Yes, I will get my diptheria tetanus booster. Yes, I will get all vaccines recommended to me by the National Immunization Program. Yes, I will live with Guillain-Barre or other vaccine side effects if I get them.

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Author: ab1stock Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6720 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/20/2000 3:55 PM
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1) "Medical doctors literally guess at which virueses they think might come around this year because the vaccines have to be prepared up to a year in advance. Even if they were exactly right with their guess of which virus blend to brew to put in the shot, and even got the right proportions, that still doesn't account for the new kids on the block! Influenza vaccine history shows that often even if they guessed right, that the virus mutates during the year rendering the "flu shot" impotent and you still get the new mutated virus."

2) Injecting blends of viruses into your body can also be very dangerous... (he goes into how the swine flu vaccine made people sicker than the swine flu itself)...This was because Influenza vaccines can cause Guillain-Barre Syndrome, the immediate inflammatory destruction of the nerve sheath which causes rapid paralysis that paralyzed many that got the swine flu vaccine. All vaccines can also cause life threatening and lethal allergic reactions."


On 1): The flu shot can be expected to protect against the most prevalent virus of the season which can be predicted with accuracy. The most prevalent will be the one causing widespread outbreaks. Generally, bimodal outbreaks over the season are not seen which is what would happen if the writer's contention that people get the newer, mutated virus after vaccination.

On 2): The swine flu vaccine, which was quite some time ago, was faulty. Anyone can get life-threatening and allergic reactions to almost anything. There is no way to predict who will be allergic to flu vaccine except for those allergic to eggs because of the substrate used in preparing the vaccine. Guillan-Barre is an exceedingly rare form of temporary autoimmune neurologic disease that usually occurs in response to a viral infection. There is absolutely no reason to fear contracting this after a flu shot.

I get a flu shot every year, and guess what, no flu.

ab

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Author: ab1stock Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6721 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/20/2000 3:57 PM
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Live polio vaccine is no longer used.

ab

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Author: medgoddess Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6724 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/20/2000 7:21 PM
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And just to show you that some of the diseases that we vaccinate against are still around and active, my cousin's daughter caught pertussis (the P in DTP) at age 6 weeks (which is earlier than the first recommended vaccination for DTP) and spent WEEKS in the hospital recovering. As a side-note, the young docs (at a world-class medical school affiliated hospital) couldn't figure out what was wrong - it was some old doc who figured out the diagnosis.

I'm all for vaccination, especially after seeing what could potentially happen without it.
Happy ending - she's a healthy 17 month old now.
Kristi

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Author: ab1stock Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6725 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/20/2000 7:27 PM
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With the recent backlash against vaccination and subsequent decrease (although minimal) in vaccination rates, it may be that we could see an increase in some of the typically vaccinated-against diseases. For those who don't vaccinate and your children don't contract those diseases, remember that this may very well be due to most other children getting vaccinated and therefore decreasing prevalence of the disease in general.

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6726 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/20/2000 7:35 PM
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.<< For those who don't vaccinate and your children don't contract those diseases, remember that this may very well be due to most other children getting vaccinated and therefore decreasing prevalence of the disease in general. >>

Something I've never been able to fathom with this anti-vaccination lobby is that they try to convert others to a non vaccinated lifestyle. The only reason it's pretty risk free for THEM not to vaccinate is that the rest of us have. As soom as the herd immunity drops, the disease prevalence increases. I'd keep quiet if I'd chosen this for my child.



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Author: ab1stock Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6727 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/20/2000 7:46 PM
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As soom as the herd immunity drops, the disease prevalence increases. I'd keep quiet if I'd chosen this for my child.

Yea, there really is no good reason on the face of it why anyone should opt not to vaccinate. If a child may have a problem with a particular vaccine, the child's pediatrician should be aware of this already.

It would be interesting to know that of the adults who opt for non Western medicine treatments, etc., for themselves, how many of them reject Western medicine for their children. I'll bet (hope) the number is substantially smaller.


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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6728 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/20/2000 7:52 PM
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As a side-note, the young docs (at a world-class medical school affiliated hospital) couldn't figure out what was wrong - it was some old doc who figured out the diagnosis.

It was the identical situation for quite a while during the current TB resurgence. All these physicians who had never seen a case, and no idea what it was or--once an old-timer or non-U.S. physician had diagnosed it--how to handle it.

Sheila

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6729 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/20/2000 8:00 PM
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It would be interesting to know that of the adults who opt for non Western medicine treatments, etc., for themselves, how many of them reject Western medicine for their children

For me personally, I've incorporated some non-Western approaches to health care, but that doesn't mean I've given up the valuable aspects of Western medicine. When my kids were at the vaccinating ages I hadn't yet discovered things like acupuncture, certain herbs, etc. But even if I had, my kids would still have gotten their vaccinations. I think it's dangerous to forego them--for all the reasons that have stated in these posts. I also feel that the complementary modalities I've found valuable are valuable for my kids too--but go tell them that they'll survive acupuncture needles! It's not an either/or situation for everyone who recognizes that some elements of non-Western medicine have unique benefit.

I'd still be getting my annual flu shot if I hadn't developed an allergic reaction to something in the vehicle.

Sheila

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Author: ab1stock Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6730 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/20/2000 8:03 PM
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I think you have a healthy attitude towards all this. As always proceed with caution when subjecting children to treatments that have unproven claims. Not everything out there is safe.

ab

:)

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6731 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/20/2000 8:40 PM
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As always proceed with caution when subjecting children to treatments that have unproven claims. Not everything out there is safe.

Absolutely. And not just with my kids (kids--15 and almost 20, by now!). I place just as high a value on my own health and physical integrity as I do on my kids'. There is danger in Western and non-Western treatments. And there are practitioners of both kinds of health care who can't be trusted.

I'd never--under normal circumstances--subject anyone I care about to an unproven treatment. Accepting the value of some complementary modalities doesn't mean careful judgement goes out the window!

Sheila

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Author: ogrecat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6744 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/21/2000 7:04 AM
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Yes, I will get flu vaccine. Yes, I will get my diptheria tetanus booster. Yes, I will get all vaccines recommended to me by the National Immunization Program. Yes, I will live with Guillain-Barre or other vaccine side effects if I get them.

I also do all these. How do I manage to get additional vaccines? I would like the ones for meningitis, hepatitis, and a pertussis booster; but the doctors say `We don't do that`.

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Author: ab1stock Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6745 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/21/2000 7:18 AM
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How do I manage to get additional vaccines? I would like the ones for meningitis, hepatitis, and a pertussis booster; but the doctors say `We don't do that`.

Typically, the vaccine for meningitis, as specifically caused by Neisseria meningitidis, is not a problem for normal adults nor is pertussis a problem. Hepatitis vaccination, against hepatitis "B", is usually only given to adults who are at high risk for this, including health care workers, drug users, high-risk sexual behavior, immuncompromised, etc. I suspect this is why your doctors don't feel the need to vaccinate you against these. Also, an Internist's office probably won't carry these vaccines because there is little need for them in adults, but a Family Practice doc I think would.

ab

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6748 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/21/2000 9:50 AM
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the vaccine for meningitis,

That vaccine is currently offered to college students every year. At least--we get a notice from the Univ. of Rochester enabling us to request it for our son, so I assume all schools do this. The most vulnerable group for this disease appears to be college students living in dorm conditions, especially freshmen.

Sheila

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6749 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/21/2000 9:52 AM
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<<It would be interesting to know that of the adults who opt for non Western treatments, etc, for themselves, how many of them reject Western medicine for their children. I'll bet (hope) the number is substantially smaller.>>

If my experience is anything to go by, it's not. It's a bit like dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses...a religious faith or deeply held belief is just that. Any sound evidence or logical arguments to the contrary are usually viewed as the Establishment's conspiracy or a test of one's faith and usually serve to reinforce such notions.

Although I'm not a pediatric dentist, I probably see a higher than average number of children in the office because I'm a woman and folk therefore assume I'm somehow "good" with children.

The fringe elements...anti Western medicine, potentially anti vaccination...are also usually anti fluoride, anti mercury phobics too and also seem to be anti disciplinarians which results in them presenting me with offspring with bombed out mouths and serious behaviour management problems to boot. I usually refer such cases (valuing my stomach lining as I do) and almost always, they fail to follow up on my recommendation but go to the guys who tout the "non-toxic" fillings.



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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6750 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/21/2000 9:58 AM
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<<The most vulnerable group for this disease appears to be college students living in dorm conditions, especially freshmen>>

Yep...the daughter had her vaccination just before she left for college. She also had her HepB shots two years prior to that. Although she was mainly doing clerical work in my office, it seemed a prudent thing to do seeing as the "higher incidence of hepatitis B in health care workers" includes clerical staff, porters etc. who have no documented incidents of exposure to body fluids on the job.

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Author: highlandspring One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6751 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/21/2000 11:47 AM
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ogrecat:

You should be able to get hepatitis A and B vaccines if you fall into risk categories for them. For example, if you are travelling to Mexico, or Central or South America, Africa or Asia, you should be able to get hepatitis A vaccine:
http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr4812a1.htm

Hepatitis B vaccine is recommended for people who have more than one sexual partner in the last six months, gay men, IV drug users etc:
http://aepo-xdv-www.epo.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/m0033405/m0033405.htm

Pertussis usually causes cough in adults, who remain the reservoir for children. There has been discussion about immunizing adults with acellular pertussis vaccine to eliminate the reservoir for children, but there is no vaccine with the decreased dose of diphtheria used in adults. So pertussis vaccine is not recommended in adults.

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Author: highlandspring One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6752 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/21/2000 11:52 AM
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ogrecat:

You may need to try a Travel Clinic or Infectious Diseases physician to get hepatitis A and/or B vaccines. Many county clinics will also have these because of the populations they serve.

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6753 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/21/2000 1:03 PM
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"The most vulnerable group for this disease appears to be college students living in dorm conditions, especially freshmen."

This statement brought something to my mind that does not have anything to do with college students, easpecially freshmen, but rather the "most vulnerable" part.
I just read that many AIDS patients get meningitis. This made me wonder if anyone with HIV should get this vaccine. Then I started wondering, are vaccines safe for these people, considering that they have immune system problems?
Anyone know????

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6754 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/21/2000 1:16 PM
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"<<It would be interesting to know that of the adults who opt for non Western treatments, etc, for themselves, how many of them reject Western medicine for their children. I'll bet (hope) the number is substantially smaller.>>

If my experience is anything to go by, it's not. It's a bit like dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses...a religious faith or deeply held belief is just that. Any sound evidence or logical arguments to the contrary are usually viewed as the Establishment's conspiracy or a test of one's faith and usually serve to reinforce such notions."


Hmmmmmmmmm, I'm not so sure about this. I agree with you in regard to "The fringe elements...anti Western medicine, potentially anti vaccination...are also usually anti fluoride, anti mercury phobics too and also seem to be anti disciplinarians." But I tend to think that the majority of people who have an interest in alternative medicines and therapies take Shelia's stance, that being that there are things alternative medicine is good for and others that traditional medicine is good for. Especially in regard to children.
I'm not saying that there aren't people out there who are anti-traditional medicine and who would rather die than see a doctor, but I think most people into the alternatives are only looking for the best of the two worlds. They want to use herbs etc when appropriate, but will use traditional medicine if it is the best thing for whatever ails them. For most people, I don't think its and either-or situation, but rather a both situation. (complementary).

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6755 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/21/2000 1:20 PM
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"Hepatitis B vaccine is recommended for people who have more than one sexual partner in the last six months, gay men, IV drug users etc:
http://aepo-xdv-www.epo.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/m0033405/m0033405.htm '

I guess this answers my question regarding HIV infected people and vaccines :-)

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6756 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/21/2000 1:32 PM
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""Hepatitis B vaccine is recommended for people who have more than one sexual partner in the last six months, gay men, IV drug users etc:
http://aepo-xdv-www.epo.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/m0033405/m0033405.htm
'

I guess this answers my question regarding HIV infected people and
vaccines :-) '

Then again it doesn't. The above implies that people who are at high risk for HIV get a vacinnation...not people who have been diagnosed with it. So, I still wonder, if someone is HIV positive or has AIDS, is it advisable for them to get vacinations?
I don't really know much about vacinations, but know you are given a small dose of the virus in order to train your immune system to recognize the virus, so I'm wondering if this is safe in regard to people with immune system problems.

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6758 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/21/2000 2:12 PM
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I think most people into the alternatives are only looking for the best of the two worlds.

Unfortunately, I think most people--and if not "most," then certainly far far too many--are brainwashed into the "natural has to be better" mantra. And they rely on health food store clerks to tell them what to take, what brands to use, etc.

This reminds me of a fascinating article I came across recently, in which a physician summarized her experiences going into health food stores and posing as someone seeking treatment for her mother, ostensibly a breast cancer patient. It wasn't a pretty portrait. I don't recall the details, and it's buried here somewhere on or around my desk. When I come across it, I'll post something about it. (It was in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute, or one of the AMA journals, I think.)

Sheila

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6773 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/22/2000 1:24 AM
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"And they rely on health food store clerks to tell them what to take, what brands to use, etc. "

I once asked the guy working at the local GNC "where did you learn all of this?" ("This" being his recommendations). His answer???? He reads magazines!

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6784 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/25/2000 2:14 PM
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I just started reading a book called "Emerging Viruses: AIDS & Ebola Nature, Accident or Intentional?"by Leonard Horowitz.
Ok, first, this book is often referred to as a "conspiracy theory" book, so think what you may...
I'm only on the Foreword, but have already found a statement that I thought was interesting and somewhat related to this thread. It has to do with the question "are vaccines safe?" Here goes:

"Seemingly, US government agencies, principally the FDA, have been reluctant to impose additional testing requirements on vaccines once they are approved for use. In effect, government officials are given a single opportunity to decide on a new vaccine's safety. Even then, government regulators themselves may be denied certain critical information belonging to the vaccine industry. Specifically, FDA regulations are written so as not to compel industry to reveal testing information not directly pertaining to the lots submitted for clinical use. The FDA is reluctant to admit its lack of knowledge about vaccines to the medical/scientific community. Yet, practicing physicians are expected to unquestionably endorse the safety of vaccines under all circumstances and to all individuals.
Aside from these bureaucratic barriers to viral vaccine safety assurance, there are additional major concerns. Since vaccine development information is considered propriety - protected by nondisclosure policies - government officials and researchers must shield potential safety issues from public scrutiny. This censorship is rationalized by the all too persuasive argument that vaccines cannot be criticized lest the public become non-compliant in taking them. ...In general, health care professionals and the general public know little about the possible dangers of live viral vaccines."

OK, being that I'm quoting this out of context, the context around it is not pointing to any vaccines as a whole, but points out that sometimes there are bad batches (or lots, as they call them). So, the author is not saying that any particular vaccine itself is inherently dangerous, or flawed, but that certain "lots" of the vaccines may be tainted.

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Author: highlandspring One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6826 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/26/2000 10:51 PM
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"The above implies that people who are at high risk for HIV get a vacinnation...not people who have been diagnosed with it. So, I still wonder, if someone is HIV positive or has AIDS, is it advisable for them to get vacinations?
I don't really know much about vacinations, but know you are given a small dose of the virus in order to train your immune system to recognize the virus, so I'm wondering if this is safe in regard to people with immune system problems."

catherine,

Adults with asymptomatic or symptomatic HIV or AIDS get routine diptheria-tetanus (inactivated toxin or toxoid vaccines). Also recommended are pnuemococcal vaccine (polysaccharide vaccine) with booster about every 5 years, influenza vaccine yearly, and hepatitis B if they are at risk.

I believe current recommendations are that children with HIV get the usual childhood immunizations, except varicella. Several immunocompromised children do not get MMR (live virus vaccine). They got IPV instead of OPV (live) until this was changed to IPV for all children last year.

So varicella is the major vaccine contraindicated in HIV. However, varicella vaccine is indicated for health care workers and others, without screening for HIV.

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6829 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/27/2000 1:58 AM
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"Adults with asymptomatic or symptomatic HIV or AIDS get routine diptheria-tetanus (inactivated toxin or toxoid vaccines). Also recommended are pnuemococcal vaccine (polysaccharide vaccine) with booster about every 5 years, influenza vaccine yearly, and hepatitis B if they are at risk."

Highlandspring,

Thank you! I was starting to think no one would answer my question!!!
How about this, I'm up to the part in the book (Emerging Viruses) where the author has a theory (and what seems to be evidence) that the man who discovered the HIV virus (Robert Gallo) created the virus ten years earlier!!! Great book...it all goes back to the cold war and biological warfare research days (for those of you who would ask, why would someone create a virus like HIV.
Has anyone read this book?

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Author: medgoddess Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6884 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 11/30/2000 5:24 PM
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Gallo didn't discover HIV, French researchers did. Gallo just likes to blow his horn. an excellent story of this (plus ebola, hanta and other cool, exotic diseases) can be found in _the coming plague_ by laurie garrett.it's a well-researched book, and a great read. you'll come away from it with admiration for the disease cowboys at the CDC.
sorry for the typing - elizabeth is on my lap, attempting to bang on the keyboard.
Kristi

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6889 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/1/2000 4:11 AM
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Hi Kristi,

"Gallo didn't discover HIV, French researchers did. Gallo just likes to blow his horn."

Funny you should mention this, as I just read a chapter today about how Luc Montagnier and Gallo had both kind of discovered the virus around the same time, though Montagnier figured out what it was slightly sooner than Gallo, so it was agreed that the French should name the virus (whoever discovers a virus gets to name it.
As the story goes, Gallo than sabotaged the agreement and "claimed the lions share of credit for himself....On April 23, 1984, the announcement was made by Margaret HEckler, Secretary of the Office of Health & Human Services, that Robert Gallo, essentially unaided by the French and CDC, had discovered the AIDS virus."
In reality, a scientist named Don Francis determined, from electron micrographs, that Montagnier and Gallo both had retroviruses that were the same. After finding this out, Gallo collaborated with Montagnier and then took the credit behind his back!

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6890 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/1/2000 4:15 AM
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"the coming plague_
by laurie garrett.it's a well-researched book, and a great read. you'll come away from it with
admiration for the disease cowboys at the CDC."

I think that's next on my list! I'm getting into these virus books :-) I'n glad you recommend it as it was a toss up between the above & Virus Hunter's of the CDC. I went for "Virus Hunters," but now will just get the other as well :-)

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Author: ZenMode Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6904 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/1/2000 1:24 PM
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In reality, a scientist named Don Francis determined, from electron micrographs, that Montagnier and Gallo both had retroviruses that were the same. After finding this out, Gallo collaborated with Montagnier and then took the credit behind his back

Read the book 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts. It is all about the story of patient zero and the embarrassing antics of Gallo, Reagan, etc. while people continued to suffer and die. For those who don't like to read, it was made into a movie. All that is discussed here is in the book and in the movie.

Zen

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6909 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/1/2000 3:16 PM
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"Read the book 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts. It is all about the story of patient zero and the embarrassing antics of Gallo, Reagan, etc. while people continued to suffer and die. For those who don't like to read, it was made into a movie. All that is discussed here is in the book and in the movie. "

The source of my info was from a chapter in the book "Emerging Viruses" in which the author was interviewing Randy Shilts. "The Band Played On" is mentioned quite a bit in that book.

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Author: ZenMode Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6920 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/2/2000 12:46 AM
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The source of my info was from a chapter in the book "Emerging Viruses" in which the author was interviewing Randy Shilts. "The Band Played On" is mentioned quite a bit in that book.

Shilts was a wonderful writer. He wrote another book called 'Conduct Unbecoming: Gays in the Military'. Randy died a few years ago arising from AIDS related complications.

Zen

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Author: medgoddess Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6924 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/2/2000 4:16 PM
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And The Band Played On is one of the best books written about the emergence of AIDS, IMHO. Very well researced and written. Again, you'll come away with an appreciation for the CDC disease cowboys (as well as hateful disgust for other govermental groups).

Great. Now y'all are giving me things to reread - right when I don't have the time! AURGH!
:)
Kristi

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6925 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/2/2000 4:37 PM
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<<Great. Now y'all are giving me things to reread - right when I don't have the time! AURGH!>>

Kristi....save 'em all for when she leaves for college. The next 18 years will pass in a heartbeat and then you'll wish for something to fill the hours.


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Author: medgoddess Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6926 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/2/2000 4:45 PM
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Right now, I'm just hoping for the next 18 hours to fly by - I'm on call.
:)
Kristi


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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6927 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/2/2000 5:27 PM
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"Great. Now y'all are giving me things to reread - right when I don't have the time! AURGH!"

These books are great...and addictive! And they do have the effect of making you disgusted at with many government agencies :-)

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Author: OleDocJ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6953 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/6/2000 9:53 AM
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In reality, a scientist named Don Francis determined, from electron micrographs, that Montagnier and Gallo both had retroviruses that were the same. After finding this out, Gallo collaborated with Montagnier and then took the credit behind his back!

Excuse me for butting in... I just skipped about 500 posts since I was WAY behind...

I think that what "really happened" in terms of the discovery of HIV is a very blurry scenario. At the meeting you refer to above, both Montagnier and Gallo had electron micrographs of what they believed was the virus causing AIDS. As I recall, both presented EM's of Type C Retroviruses. After their presentation, a colleague of mine (Preston Marx) presented results from the California Primate Research Center in Davis CA showing that the agents causing Simian AIDS was a Type D Retrovirus. During the discussion following this presentation, both Gallo and Montagnier entered the discussion saying that they had also seen Type D Retroviruses in some samples...

I swear to God, the next day after that meeting, both Gallo and Montagnier were saying that the AIDS virus was a Type D retrovirus... Spin... Spin... Spin...

Maybe they knew it was a Type D retrovirus before the meeting but didn't want to let either side know that they knew... Who knows?


OleDoc


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Author: OleDocJ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6956 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/6/2000 11:01 AM
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These books are great...and addictive! And they do have the effect of making you disgusted at with many government agencies :-)

Well, let me see...

I find many of the opinions of government agencies to be ill-informed, poorly conceived, and disgusting...

I find many of the authors of these Grub Street diatribes on scientific issues (aka "Science for Dummies") to be ill-informed, poorly conceived, and disgusting...

I find many of the opinions expressed by the general public on scientific issues to be ill-informed, poorly conceived, and disgusting...

What was the question?


OleDoc


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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6959 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/6/2000 11:39 AM
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"Excuse me for butting in... I just skipped about 500 posts since I was WAY behind..."

Its about time you did butt in!!! Where have you been? WE were discussing viruses and our virus expert wasn't anywhere to be found!
OleDoc, have you had a chance to read any of these books that imply that AIDs is a man made viruse? I'm reading Emerging Viruses, and it makes you wonder. The author presents several theories about the genesis of AIDS, HIV and Ebola, the main thing the theories have in common is that these viruses are man made - be it accidental or on-purpose. I was wondering your take on this book, if you have even read it.

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6960 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/6/2000 11:51 AM
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OleDoc,

Have You Read "The Hot Zone" ? If so, what do you think of that book? In "Emerging Viruses" by Leonard Horowitz, he says that he thinks "The Hot Zone" is a classic piece of yellow journalism written for propaganda purposes. I have to admit, alot of the material in "Emerging Viruses" is way over my head (not being a microbiologist or virologist, but there's some real intriguing stuff in that book.
One of the more interesting concepts that I'm picking up on is the author's contention that viruses don't "cross species" quickly or easily, unless aided by scientist. He implies that a monkey viruses didn't just suddenly jump species recently, but did so from scientific experiments. He says this can only happen when a monkey (or whatever) virus is cultivated (grown) in a human tissue culture in a lab. But once a virus has been grown in human tissue, then it can "jump species." At least that's what I think he is saying.
What do you think?

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Author: OleDocJ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6961 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/6/2000 12:29 PM
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Its about time you did butt in!!! Where have you been? WE were discussing viruses and our virus expert wasn't anywhere to be found!
OleDoc, have you had a chance to read any of these books that imply that AIDs is a man made viruse? I'm reading Emerging Viruses, and it makes you wonder. The author presents several theories about the genesis of AIDS, HIV and Ebola, the main thing the theories have in common is that these viruses are man made - be it accidental or on-purpose. I was wondering your take on this book, if you have even read it.


Well, as I have said before, I am reluctant to enter into discussions about viruses on this board! Look at it this way: I have about 30+ years of biased opinions on this topic! Also, I am incapable of reading the popular press books about viruses -- I get about half way through the first chapter and give up!

Furthermore, I no longer read the scientific literature relative to viruses; it is voluminous and I no longer wish to devote my time to reading it. I would rather read European history...

Nevertheless, regarding your specific question as to AIDS/HIV and Ebola being "man made" viruses, my opinion would be that this is a naive, anthropomorphic misunderstanding of the basic nature of these two classes of viruses.

Both of these classes of viruses have single-strand RNA genomes. This contrasts with most forms of life as we know it which contain genomes comprised of double-strand DNA. A simple point relative to this contrast of genome composition is that organisms with DS-DNA have developed mechanisms to ensure the faithful replication of their genetic information. By contrast, the SS-RNA viruses cannot attain the error-checking mechanisms to ensure the faithful replication of their genetic replication. As a consequence, SS-RNA viruses, such as Ebola and HIV, are subject to rapid evolution with uncontrolled preservation of prior "evolutionary traits."

Nevertheless, these classes of viruses are constrained to "life as they know it" based on their ability to replicate within the limited confines of their limited genomic information. Any mutation which obviates that ability fails. Any mutation which enhances that abilty prevails. The mutation rate among SS-RNA viruses is about 1 in 10,000 genome bases copied. By contrast, the mutation rate among DS-DNA genome-based organisms is more like 1 in 10,000,000 genome bases copied (with their error-checking processes).

So, in short, because of their rapid evolutionary advantage, SS-RNA viruses (including HIV and Ebola) will rapidly evolve to any changes in their environmental pressure. If man acts in such a way to change the environmental pressure on the replication of these viruses, they will evolve in such a way as to select those viruses which can most efficiently survive those changes.

In this sense, Man affects the evolution of these viruses by his actions - but, he can never control them. But, no, man has not created these viruses; but, perhaps, man's actions has facilitated their evolution...


OleDoc


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Author: OleDocJ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6962 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/6/2000 12:50 PM
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He says this can only happen when a monkey (or whatever) virus is cultivated (grown) in a human tissue culture in a lab. But once a virus has been grown in human tissue, then it can "jump species." At least that's what I think he is saying.
What do you think?


Well, from my virology training, I would have to say that this is total hogwash!

If you followed my previous post, you will understand that viruses, because of their limited genetic capacity, are capable of rapid evolution. To turn this around, viruses exist because they are capable of rapid evolution despite their limited genetic capacity.

When one isolates a virus from its natural environment and forces it to grow in a synthetic environment, one changes the evolutionary pressure that affects its replication.

In all historical cases that I am aware of, cultivation of viruses in the laboratory in tissue culture actually results in a debilitated ability of the cultivated virus to replicate in its natural host.

The argument promulgated is that this altered host infectivity will result in a novel infectivity for a new host based on the species of cell culture in which the virus is replicated in the laboratory. To my knowledge, there is no scientific basis for this assumption. The logic is faulty.


OleDoc


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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6966 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/7/2000 12:55 AM
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"In this sense, Man affects the evolution of these viruses by his actions - but, he can never control them. But, no, man has not created these viruses; but, perhaps, man's actions has facilitated their evolution..."

:-) I love that answer! Ok, I can accept that - man can't create viruses, but can facilitate their evolution. It does make alot of sense.


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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6967 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/7/2000 1:15 AM
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"If you followed my previous post, you will understand that viruses, because of their limited genetic capacity, are capable of rapid evolution. To turn this around, viruses exist because they are capable of rapid
evolution despite their limited genetic capacity."

Ok, I'm re-reading a section of the book titled "Gallo's Cancerous Creations" after reading your posts:

"Among Gallo's earliest reports was the discovery that by adding a synthetic RNA and cat leukaemia virus "template" to "human type C" viruses - those associated with cancers of the lymph nodes - the rate of DNA production (and subsequent provirus and virus reproduction) increased as much as thirty times. Gallo and company reported that such a virus may cause many cancers besides leukamias and lymphomas, including sarcomas."
"...Gallo and company reported modifying simian monkey viruses by infusing them with cat leukaemia RNA to make them cause cancers as seen in people with AIDS...
These experiments, I realized, could have easily established the technology for the development of HIV - allegedly of simian virus descent - which similiarly delivers reverse transcripase and a foreign cat leukemia/sarcoma-like RNA to normal white blood cells."


HMMMM, I don't know OLeDoc, I think you are right, better to read European History!

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Author: OleDocJ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6968 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/7/2000 11:02 PM
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"Among Gallo's earliest reports was the discovery that by adding a synthetic RNA and cat leukaemia virus "template" to "human type C" viruses - those associated with cancers of the lymph nodes - the rate of DNA production (and subsequent provirus and virus reproduction) increased as much as thirty times. Gallo and company reported that such a virus may cause many cancers besides leukamias and lymphomas, including sarcomas."
"...Gallo and company reported modifying simian monkey viruses by infusing them with cat leukaemia RNA to make them cause cancers as seen in people with AIDS...
These experiments, I realized, could have easily established the technology for the development of HIV - allegedly of simian virus descent - which similiarly delivers reverse transcripase and a foreign cat leukemia/sarcoma-like RNA to normal white blood cells."


Nice quotes! <sarcastic grin>

These quotes are excellent examples of why I am unable to read the stuff written by these conspiracy hacks. They don't make any sense (to a biochemist, virologist, or molecular biologist).

It's just a bunch of gobbledy-gook -- sort of technical sounding hogwash using some of the right words -- but using them wrong and mixing them in with other non-technical words to make it so vague that it cannot possibly be understood by a scientist -- much less, refuted!!!


OleDoc


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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6969 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/7/2000 11:58 PM
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"It's just a bunch of gobbledy-gook -- sort of technical sounding hogwash using some of the right words -- but using them wrong and mixing them in with other non-technical words to make it so vague that it cannot possibly be understood by a scientist -- much less, refuted!!!"

I'm glad that scientists have a hard time understanding this stuff too! :-) Seriously, the book is interesting, but I find myself skimming over lots of it - like the "scientific" explanations or what appear to be scientific explanations - you know, the stuff where I understand every 8th or 9th word! :-)

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Author: microfood Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6970 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/8/2000 8:38 AM
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Thanks, OleDoc and CatherineJ,

Give me the actual journal article any day -- scientific results are based on reasonable statistical and scientific interpretation, *not* spin from a publishing company editor :)

--Ann

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6972 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/8/2000 3:10 PM
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"Give me the actual journal article any day -- scientific results are based on reasonable statistical and scientific interpretation, *not* spin from a
publishing company editor :)"


Just a note here: The book "Emerging Viruses" was written by Leonard Horowitz, D.M.D, M.A., M.P.H. In the book, Horowitz has included pages that are "photocopies" of actual scientific articles that scientist such as Robert Gallo authored and were published in scientific jornals. There also pages upon pages listing studies, the study conclusions and their possible relationship to the topic. There are also 40 pages of references and notes in the back of the book. THe guy did his homework. Not to say that his interpretations and theories are right, but just to point out that a lot of research went into this book and it does include alot of scientific studies and findings.
Now, are the author's theories and interpretations of these studies on target? That I don't know, as I don't have the proper background to read alot of this stuff and really understand it in any meaningful way. But its still interesting. This is kind of why I was hoping that someone else , with a science background, may have read this book :-)

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Author: catharine Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 6973 of 41484
Subject: Re: Flu Shots Date: 12/8/2000 3:22 PM
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Take a peek:

http://pub5.ezboard.com/fyourdonhealthgeneral.showMessage?topicID=216.topic

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