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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 4954  
Subject: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/28/2009 9:52 PM
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heaven knows this is something we all try to do, but sometimes, as in the
matter i am going to ask your help on, things escalate to a point where bad stuff happens...........

when i told michael in the politest, kindest possible terms that i would not
be happy if he moved into the apartment in my building, and that i really really did not want him to, he went absolutely BALLISTIC.....called me
every name in the book, told me how selfish i am, how ungrateful i am
(for what i dont know)...and on and on.........

i must digress now: i have been in a relationship w a married guy for 20
years....he is 10 years younger than i am.......we care about each other
very much, and tho we are not particularly sexual after all this time,
we are --if not in love--certainly in a deeply lovING relationship, we MATTER to each other..........does his wife know? he says no, i feel
she must...or if not, they have some sort of arrangement.......

back to michael........at one completely insane moment, i told michael
about my relationship w. ken.......and michael is so angry at me about
the apartment, he is, in his own words, "thinking about calling ken's wife".

as you can imagine, i am beyond beyond, and as i sit here with the
tears rolling down my cheeks and onto the keyboard, i am terrified and
wonder what to do.......i am so hoping you will be able to advise....

re ken: do i say nothing and hope that michael wont fulfill his threat?
do i call ken and tell him him that this crazy person is threatening to
expose us to the wife? do i call ken and tell him that this crazy person who is seeking revenge is telling lies about me to everyone?

do i write to michael and apologise for making his life so miserable?
would it make any difference if i did? probably not.....

should i jump out the window? no, i live on the ground floor and the best i'd..get is a sprained ankle...

i am grateful for your thoughts...


sasha
a very sad person.......
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Author: Rael137 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3683 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/28/2009 11:24 PM
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when i told michael in the politest, kindest possible terms that i would not
be happy if he moved into the apartment in my building, and that i really really did not want him to,


Good for you -- you stood up for what was the best solution for yourself and likely for him as well.

he went absolutely BALLISTIC.....called me
every name in the book, told me how selfish i am, how ungrateful i am
(for what i dont know)...and on and on.........


Oh dear -- I am so sorry. This guy is total bad news. He had a track record of seeing the older women in his life "turn mean" and the fault is with him. If not this, then something else would make him turn on you eventually. I am very sorry.

back to michael........at one completely insane moment, i told michael
about my relationship w. ken.......and michael is so angry at me about
the apartment, he is, in his own words, "thinking about calling ken's wife".


Well, this is awful. What is he trying to prove? Is he thinking that threatening you will make you closer to him? This guy (michael) is unhinged and no sort of adult much less a gentleman.

re ken: do i say nothing and hope that michael wont fulfill his threat?
do i call ken and tell him him that this crazy person is threatening to
expose us to the wife? do i call ken and tell him that this crazy person who is seeking revenge is telling lies about me to everyone?


Tough question -- my first impulse was to say "don't do anything" and this crazy person will eventually move on. But perhaps alerting ken wouldn't be a bad thing. If you point out this person's history: mom was "mean", each girlfriend "turns mean", since you have crossed him now you are "mean" and he has gone crazy.

do i write to michael and apologise for making his life so miserable?

NONONONONONONONONONOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

YOU DIDN'T MAKE HIS LIFE MISERABLE! HE has built his own miserable life and is trying to mess with you and those around you. Do you want this person -- who is starting to show his true colors -- living in your building? Do you want to continue a relationship with him?

would it make any difference if i did? probably not.....

You would be appeasing the blackmailer if you apologize. Even if it isn't literal blackmail, he is threatening to make you miserable and harm your other relationships to -- what -- get back at you? Get you back in his life? Get the apartment after all? Do you want to give him control over you?

If you did apologize to him, then what next? Would he demand to move into the apartment? That would be a disaster for you -- he knows how to play upon your (unjustified) guilt to get what he wants, no matter how unreasonable or damaging to you.

should i jump out the window?

No, of course not. He may be able to get *your* apartment then! : )

There's a wise piece of advice that I have heard applied to very stressful situations (like being laid off, relationship breakup, etc.). The advice is "Don't do anything right away." Basically you should sit back, take a deep breath, take another deep breath, (don't forget to keep breathing), find a sense of calm, and rationally think about the possible actions (or non-actions) which are open to you.

If you act right away, you will likely be following impulse or emotions. If you think you can prevent the blackmail (which is what this is) by acting, then talk to ken and leave that part in his hands. If I were you, I would either cut off all communication with michael or keep it cold and unemotional (if you can). If you can't then it may be better to cut him off -- do you still want a relationship with him?

You may think you can "fix him" -- you can't.
You may think you can "help him" -- you can't
You may think you can make him happy and satisfied with his life -- you can't.

The only person that can do those things for him is michael. But he could drag you down into his messy, delusional life, and you don't deserve that.

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Author: agyjdgphil Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3684 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/29/2009 12:29 AM
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I think Rael's advice is very wise. In addition, I would suggest seeking professional counseling if you haven't already done so. You are frankly in a mess, and unknown non-professionals on a message board can give you only so much insight. Probably a real pro who really knows you could help you more. I certainly don't think I would want to handle this situation by myself!

And please don't think I'm being judgmental, but you are definitely not following the Golden Rule by being in a relationship with a married man. I once heard it said that if anyone is in a relationship that needs to be kept secret, then that person should not be in that relationship. I do realize that it's a little late to be talking about that right now, and your more immediate problem is dealing with Michael. So I do hope you get help!

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Author: anattafool Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3685 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/29/2009 8:58 AM
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You are dating a married man??? Yet you are a frequent poster for advice on ethics? No wonder you don't know what is ethical and what isn't. Sorry to be mean, but you need to reevaluate the DAILY decisions you make. Ethics just isn't about how to deal with the person you don't like who has been fired. It's about having character yourself and making decisions that you can be proud of.

I can't even take the time to comment on the rest of your post because to me, you have a much bigger issue to deal with than someone getting made at you because you spoke your mind.

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3686 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/29/2009 10:24 AM
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((((Sasha))))

Rael gave excellent advice. Here's my suggestion on the matter and I hope you can take her advice, mine and work this mess out.

First: You did noting wrong by telling Michael that you weren't comfortable having him live in your building, however, I can totally see that he is now using this information to try to emotionally blackmail you. And yes, it is blackmail. Not even going to give it the pretty name of extortion!

Second: You need to let Ken know what Michael threatened. This is damage control. Ken can decide what to tell his wife. If his wife has truly turned a blind eye to a 20 yr affair, then I would imagine that she is already well aware of the situation and for the choice of comfort and financial stability she allows it to continue without saying anything to Ken. Ken needs to decide if this is the time to come clean about it or if he's going to try additional cover-up i.e. "You won't believe what Sasha's ex is saying about her! He's claiming she's having an affair with me!" I'm not suggesting that covering it up is the right way to go, but his wife doesn't need or deserve further humiliation in this situation.

Third: Get into counseling, like now! My daughter has an ex, the father of her second daughter, who pulls this kind of crap with her all the time. Every little thing she's ever confided to him becomes a weapon to use against her. She finally got into counseling and has realized that sometimes the worst thing that can happen is not actually as bad as what we fear. She's beginning to stand up for herself with him and while he rages on and threatens, she's learned that sometimes you just have to suck it up and call their bluff. It has helped her immensely to know that her counselor is just a phone call away when things are getting tough.

Ironically, his name is Michael also. He's a charming, nice looking man who has so far spent the majority of his life blaming other people for his mistakes. He even took it so far as to blame his parole officer when he tested dirty for drugs "Well, if she didn't make me feel so bad about doing drugs, I wouldn't feel so stressed and I wouldn't smoke." Really??

Sasha, I won't make a judgement on your relationship with Ken. I do hope that when the dust settles, you'll find yourself in a peaceful place in your life with someone you love who truly loves you.

LWW

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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3687 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/29/2009 11:06 AM
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thank you.

re michael: i received a very nice email this morning telling me he
would never tell my 'secret'......i am very grateful...

re ken: we never really know about another person's needs/problems or
WHY.....the 'AFFAIR' is mostly historical.....we have lunch or dinner
once a week, and are close, warm friends who help each other survive...

she is rarely there...he needs someone to care about him...i do...
it's almost as if he has 2 wives......one of us is never around, the
other is, divorce is out of the question..and as i said, the 'affair'
is mostly historical, but the warm, loving, kindness still exists...

given his particular circumstances, i dont feel it is unethical..

thank you all.

sasha

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Author: reallyalldone Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3688 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/29/2009 11:54 AM
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This is total BS. It's like a script out of a soap opera.

rad

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Author: Rael137 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3689 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/29/2009 12:01 PM
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re michael: i received a very nice email this morning telling me he
would never tell my 'secret'......i am very grateful...


How long do you think it will be before he blows up at you again?

The next time he feels thwarted?

The next time you speak your mind and he doesn't agree?

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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3691 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/29/2009 2:31 PM
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THANK YOU RAEL for your kindness, your sagacity, and for not being
judgemental. you cant know how much i appreciate you.

sasha

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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3692 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/29/2009 2:37 PM
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and thank you to LWW and all the rest of you....even RAD......

if we cant be honest here, then where....


sasha

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Author: anattafool Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3693 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/29/2009 2:40 PM
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heavens forbid we be judgemental on an ethics board...

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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3694 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/29/2009 4:36 PM
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DEAR L.....

you are always so wise, so balanced........i thank you for your kind
wish for me....maybe it will come true.....meanwhile, your constant
thoughtfulness continues to amaze me.....your message brought tears
to my eyes.

thank you....

sash

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Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3695 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/29/2009 5:19 PM
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You're welcome. Always here for you my dear:0)

LWW

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3701 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/30/2009 12:38 AM
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given his particular circumstances, i dont feel it is unethical..
You sound like a nice person, but I am fairly sure every person having an affair with a married man/woman would say the same thing about themselves - that THEIR particular situation was different from all those other affairs that one hears about. That THEY had true and deep reasons why it's right and not unethical.

An affair without full consent of all parties and agreement as to ground rules - including the wife - is in fact not ethical. It may be emotionally good for one or the other of you. Or not. But ethical? No.

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Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3712 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/30/2009 2:02 PM
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It sounds to me like your relationship with Ken is now along the lines of a solid, supportive friendship. IMO, there's nothing wrong with that, and you've known forever that divorce is not an option.

My first thought when I read your OP was that Michael's true colors have shown up. His blow-up felt very abusive and way over the top to me. I think you are very wise not to want this man living so close to you.

I also was wondering -- does he know who Ken is? Does he know Ken's last name or enough information about him that he could actually track him down and contact him? If not, then certainly don't worry.

Like others have said, his wife probably knows about you, so it wouldn't be an issue if Michael did call her.

Maybe one of the lessons in all this is to not divulge too much information to someone you don't know well. Certainly, in a relationship, it's important to be honest about seeing other people, but it may not be necessary to divulge information about that person.

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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3719 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/30/2009 8:12 PM
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loving.......

no, he doesnt know ken's last name.......but he knows who the wife is...
she is a celebrity....

and boy, are you ever right! a major lesson in all this is not to
spill everything i know....and my greatest fear is that KEN would
know i couldn't keep my mouth shut...that would end it, i think.


s

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Author: anuvaka Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3721 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/31/2009 2:57 PM
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Sasha,

One thing I have learned is that sometimes it is better to say nothing.
Or at least, not everything.

Having an open conversation w Michael was probably good. You at least made your point clear.

His reaction, of anger, causing harm for Ken, accusing you of putting your interests over his, reveals a lot about Him. Please think carefully about what you have learned here, inspite of or despite what you feel for him.

I would have some sort of conversation with Ken, just to forewarn him what may occur. And this must be delicatly approached also.


jC
please don't jump out the window. You will trash the flower bed and tear and soil your clothes, really not worth losing a nice outfit. ;-)

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Author: sashamore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3723 of 4954
Subject: Re: following the golden rule....... Date: 7/31/2009 3:47 PM
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jC....

you are so sweet.....i had lunch w (dare i say it) ken today and told
him that my trainer was furious w me for kibashing the apartment
thing, and was making all kinds of crazy and scary threats, and that
i was nervous and had all the locks changed.....that's as far as i was
prepared to go.........it was a beginning...

he is a good and gentle man....you would like him.

thank you for your concern...

yrs,
sasha

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