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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 734713  
Subject: Free Will Date: 2/16/2013 8:30 PM
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I think I'll exercise my free will and go to bed now instead of an hour from now. The great thing about predestination is that everything you do was predestinated. I guess I was predestined to go to bed at 8:30 instead of 9:30. The potential 9:30 bedtime is just an illusion.
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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671870 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/16/2013 8:32 PM
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I think I'll exercise my free will and go to bed now instead of an hour from now. The great thing about predestination is that everything you do was predestinated. I guess I was predestined to go to bed at 8:30 instead of 9:30. The potential 9:30 bedtime is just an illusion.
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Get your rest, tomorrow is a long day of hockey.

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671872 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/16/2013 8:46 PM
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http://www.amazon.com/Free-Will-Sam-Harris/dp/1451683405/ref...

"In this elegant and provocative book, Sam Harris demonstrates—with great intellectual ferocity and panache—that free will is an inherently flawed and incoherent concept, even in subjective terms. If he is right, the book will radically change the way we view ourselves as human beings."

—V. S. Ramachandran, Director of the Center for Brain and Cognition, UCSD, and author of The Tell-Tale Brain

"Brilliant and witty—and never less than incisive—Free Will shows that Sam Harris can say more in 13,000 words than most people do in 100,000."

—Oliver Sacks

"Free will is an illusion so convincing that people simply refuse to believe that we don’t have it. In Free Will, Sam Harris combines neuroscience and psychology to lay this illusion to rest at last. Like all of Harris’s books, this one will not only unsettle you but make you think deeply. Read it: you have no choice."—Jerry A. Coyne, Professor of Ecology and Evolution, University of Chicago, and author of Why Evolution Is True

"Many say that believing that there is no free will is impossible—or, if possible, will cause nihilism and despair. In this feisty and personal essay, Harris offers himself as an example of a heart made less self-absorbed, and more morally sensitive and creative, because this particular wicked witch is dead."

—Owen Flanagan, Professor of Philosophy, Duke University, and author of The Really Hard Problem

"If you believe in free will, or know someone who does, here is the perfect antidote. In this smart, engaging, and extremely readable little book, Sam Harris argues that free will doesn’t exist, that we’re better off knowing that it doesn’t exist, and that—once we think about it in the right way—we can appreciate from our own experience that it doesn’t exist. This is a delightful discussion by one of the sharpest scholars around.”

—Paul Bloom, Professor of Psychology, Yale University, and author of How Pleasure Works

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671873 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/16/2013 9:05 PM
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I'm lying in bed typing on my cell phone. I don't care what some self-appointed expert says. I am just as human as they are. My POV is just as valid as theirs. I am not intimidated or impressed.

So all the effort I put in conquering my speech impediment was for naught, huh? I was predestined to conquer it I suppose. We have no need to conquer life's challenges because we're just preordained to have them, so why try?

If you wish to rationalize away laziness, go ahead. Don't expect me to buy into it. Be a victim. I don't care.

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671874 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/16/2013 9:08 PM
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Yeah 2828, MON vs PHA right now with EDM vs COL (I think) later. No interest in any of those four teams. Mebbe tomorrow's match-ups will be more intriguing.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671875 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/16/2013 9:12 PM
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Yeah 2828, MON vs PHA right now with EDM vs COL (I think) later. No interest in any of those four teams. Mebbe tomorrow's match-ups will be more intriguing.
-----------------------------------------------------
You were destined to have no interest. you may find the Blackhawks/Kings game and the Detroit/Wild game more to your liking tomorrow, if it was meant to be.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671877 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/16/2013 9:20 PM
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So all the effort I put in conquering my speech impediment was for naught, huh? I was predestined to conquer it I suppose. We have no need to conquer life's challenges because we're just preordained to have them, so why try?

If you wish to rationalize away laziness, go ahead. Don't expect me to buy into it. Be a victim. I don't care.
----------------------------------------------------
I like to believe in predestination after whatever i wanted to happen didn't, it helps me forget about it, but if you start believing you control nothing you may have a tendency to become a docile lamb that just lets stuff happen to you, of course that might be your destiny, but at least i like to think it isn't. Artimus loves those existential, unanswerable until you're dead, if even then, questions. No one can know, it's like those, "is there a GardenBunny" questions. I dunno.....really, i don't.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671892 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/17/2013 12:29 AM
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"Get your rest, tomorrow is a long day of hockey." - 2828


Tomorrow is Sunday so it's a church day. I like our preacher though so I don't mind, the socializing, the singing, the praying.... it's all good. I like the people there even though some of them are homophobes. I figure they can't help it though because they are ignorant. They believe it's a choice while I of course..... don't.

Actually truth be told that's the only thing that really bothers me about the Church of Christ. It's not like they are suddenly going to be enlightened about it though. It is what it is.

Other than that the Church of Christ has been good for me. It's made for a good life for me. No telling where I'd be if I hadn't met that girl (Suzanne) at Kraft Foods in Atlanta, and we'd started dating, and she started taking me to church, and then told me that I should go to Campus View Church of Christ in Athens, Georgia where I met Bonnie and got married and actually when I look back over my life it's been pretty good and I've avoided a lot of the pitfalls of life like drugs, alcoholism, divorce, etc. and a lot of that is due to being associated with the Church of Christ.

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671894 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/17/2013 12:45 AM
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Namkato shares, "Free will is an illusion so convincing that people simply refuse to believe that we don’t have it." - Jerry A. Coyne, Professor of Ecology and Evolution,


The question is, "why does our brain trick us into believing we have free will?" If we don't have free will, then why bother even pretending we do? Why not just make us robots without any control whatsoever?

I think I know the answer. We have to believe it's all real so that we have the emotional response that is needed to download memories in the collective unconscious. There is a very close connection between emotion and memory and the way it works is the more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates.

We have to believe it's all real in order to imprint the memories that we were sent here to download. Like bits of information. If we knew it was all just a great big holographic illusion, and that one day we were going to be reunited with our loved ones, we wouldn't mourn quite as much and the death of our loved ones would cease to be the most powerful lesson in separation that it is.

Without the belief in free will we wouldn't have emotion, and making memories is the whole point of being here. But the education of the soul is too important to leave it up to chance.

Emotions Make the Memory Last, More Detail, Easier Recollection With Emotional Memories, By Miranda Hitti WebMD Health News

Jan. 31, 2005 -- "Ever wonder why some memories can stay vivid for years while others fade with time? The answer is emotion.

When the emotions are aroused, the brain takes note. It stores as much detail as possible about the emotion-filled event, wiring it for quick recall. That emotion-charged memory can be summoned at a moment's notice, even after a long time has passed.

That's true for positive and negative emotions, say Duke University's Florin Dolcos and colleagues. Their report appears in the early online edition of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences."


http://www.webmd.com/balance/news/20050131/emotions-make-mem...

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671895 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/17/2013 12:47 AM
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"I'm lying in bed typing on my cell phone. I don't care what some self-appointed expert says. I am just as human as they are. My POV is just as valid as theirs. I am not intimidated or impressed. So all the effort I put in conquering my speech impediment was for naught, huh? I was predestined to conquer it I suppose. We have no need to conquer life's challenges because we're just preordained to have them, so why try?
If you wish to rationalize away laziness, go ahead. Don't expect me to buy into it. Be a victim. I don't care." - wolverine

---------------------------------------


Drive, ambition, intelligence, aptitude, personality, looks, extrovert versus introvert, it's who you are.

The education of the soul is too important to leave up to chance.

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671896 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/17/2013 12:58 AM
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"Artimus loves those existential, unanswerable until you're dead, if even then, questions. No one can know, it's like those, "is there a GardenBunny" questions. I dunno.....really, i don't." - 2828


But we are given little hints, little glimpses, that life is more than what meets the eye. Connections, death bed visions, near death experiences, mystical and transcendental experiences, quantum physics, holographic paradigm, and when you step back and view them all together it paints a picture that is amazing.

William James, a 19th Century Harvard professor made the statement that it only takes one white crow to prove that not all crows are black. It doesn't have to be all true. If only a small fraction of the stories that I have read are true it says something amazing life and why we are here.

Back in January, 2010 I read an article online in New Scientist magazine about a Dr. Craig Hogan who is the director of Fermilab. Hogan was talking about this noise that these scientist found while looking for gravity waves. They couldn't figure out what it was. Hogan said he thought it was "pixelation" of our universe which was from it's holographic nature. Hogan is a believer in the holographic nature of our universe.

But one other statement that Hogan made was what really intrigued me. Hogan said that in a holographic projection there is always a certain degree of fuzziness or blurriness. The reason this statement intrigued me was because I had read many near death experience descriptions where they said that the other side, the place we call "heaven" was even more real than this side, or it was clearer than this side, or "realer than real."

So what that told me was that what these NDE people had seen was the original holographic film, a place where that fuzziness that Hogan was talking about, doesn't exist. Our side, the place we are now, is the holographic projection, and the other side, is the film that this side is a projection from. It means that whatever is here, has to be there.

It means that when we die, our souls go to a place where all the things that we lost in this life, everything we loved, or "bind" still exists. It means that we don't really lose anything. Whatever we focus our attention on, that is what we will see and experience on the other side.


Art

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Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671900 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/17/2013 2:18 AM
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It means that when we die, our souls go to a place where all the things that we lost in this life, everything we loved, or "bind" still exists. It means that we don't really lose anything. Whatever we focus our attention on, that is what we will see and experience on the other side.



I, for one, don't believe in souls.

There is no evidence that souls exist. NDEs are adequately explained by neuroscientists.

You are confusing the argument against inductive reasoning (one white crow) with possibilities of magical reality.

k

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Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671901 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/17/2013 2:38 AM
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Free will is the equivalent of a pachinko ball.

If you are familiar with the Japanese game of pachinko, then you will get this-

The pachinko ball is of a defined weight and size. It moves through space at a determined velocity. It encounters other masses that are also of a determined weight and size with all of the physical realities that they possess.

All of this equates to pure physics. It should be possible to predict into which slot the pachinko ball will land taking all of these things into consideration, but it can't be done-

Why?

Quantum variances.

As the pachinko ball encounters the pins, slight variances in the molecules of the solid objects involved lead to different outcomes.

Human beings are machines without souls or free will.

That being said, it should be possible to predict what a person will decide if given all of the physical parameters that led to the choice. The problem with that is that there are SO many variables included in a person's processes that any attempts to predict decisions, no matter how powerful the computing device may be, would be impossible.

Free will is "virtual" because of this. We virtually have free will because there are infinite variables that cannot be predicted. While "choice" is absolutely mechanical, I wouldn't call it "predestination".

k

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671904 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/17/2013 8:54 AM
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But one other statement that Hogan made was what really intrigued me. Hogan said that in a holographic projection there is always a certain degree of fuzziness or blurriness. The reason this statement intrigued me was because I had read many near death experience descriptions where they said that the other side, the place we call "heaven" was even more real than this side, or it was clearer than this side, or "realer than real."
-------------------------------------------------
That's good because my eyesight sucks.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671905 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/17/2013 8:57 AM
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That being said, it should be possible to predict what a person will decide if given all of the physical parameters that led to the choice. The problem with that is that there are SO many variables included in a person's processes that any attempts to predict decisions, no matter how powerful the computing device may be, would be impossible.
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Obama is not like a pachinko ball. No matter the parameters he encounters the answer is always to raise taxes and diminish freedom.

2828

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671915 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/17/2013 9:55 AM
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The question is, "why does our brain trick us into believing we have free will?" If we don't have free will, then why bother even pretending we do? Why not just make us robots without any control whatsoever?
__________________________

Seems like kind of a dumb question really.

The answer would be, well you have not choice so just go with it.

It is a nice circular way to live all roads lead to the same point, nowhere which is actually everywhere.

If anyone wants to make donations just let me know and I will provide a PO Box, or you can just email me your credit card numbers.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671917 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/17/2013 10:16 AM
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"There is no evidence that souls exist. NDEs are adequately explained by neuroscientists. You are confusing the argument against inductive reasoning (one white crow) with possibilities of magical reality." khalou
-----------


You are wrong. There are things about NDE's that I know that neuroscientists don't know and don't understand. I have a much broader understanding about NDE's and have read a whole lot more NDE"s than these so called scientists have.

There is a connection between NDE's and quantum physics and the holographic universe that has never been adequately explained away to me. Near death experiencers routinely describe their experiences in terms that can only be called "holographic" and they also say things that seem to parallel things I've read about quantum physics. I find that very evidential. There is no way that a housewife from Kansas or an uneducated truck driver from South Georgia would know or understand anything about quantum physics or the holographic nature of the universe yet they routinely come back after their experiences and describe them in terms that can only be called "holographic."

People who have NDE's routinely talk about overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness, feeling like they are everywhere in the universe at once, time and space not existing, buildings that are "made out of knowledge", 360 degree vision, seeing colors they've never seen before, hearing sounds that they haven't heard in this physical universe, and during the life review seeing their whole lives flash by in an instant (bolus of information)and feeling the emotions and feelings of the people they interacted with (the life review is a holographic experience par excellence), and how the other side will feel even more real to us than this side does, and feeling the feelings and hearing the thoughts of the people they interacted with. I find these things to be very evidential because it parallels things I've read about in popular physics books.

This explains why it is that so many near death experiencers say that the other side will feel even more real to us than this side does, and how it could be "realer than real" or "more consciousness than normal." Near death experiencers also say that it will feel even more real to us than this side does. The quote below explains why or how this is possible.

"Or, to put it another way, a holographic universe is blurry," says Hogan. This is good news for anyone trying to probe the smallest unit of space-time. ...

http://blogs.monografias.com/sistema-limbico-neurociencias/2...

There is quite a bit of evidence from physics and near death experiences that our so called physical universe is some kind of strange holographic projection. The implications of this are enormous.

Our Universe may be a giant hologram (1 page)

http://www.inquisitr.com/15460/scientists-claim-our-world-ma...

The Universe as a hologram (about 5 or 6 pages):
http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html

Testing the holographic universe

http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2010/10/20/fermilab...

If you read Mark Horton's NDE and the parallels with the holographic universe theory become obvious:

http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

Near Death Experiences: A Holographic Explanation, Dr. Oswald Harding.

http://www.amazon.com/Near-Death-Experience-Holographic-Expl...

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671918 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/17/2013 10:20 AM
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"That's good because my eyesight sucks." - 2828


I have read many many NDE's where people said that they have either very poor eyesight, or are even blind, and they could see perfectly on the other side. People who during surgery had to take their glasses off and then when they were out of their bodies they could see what was going on in the operating room even though they knew that they didn't have their glasses on.

There is a book called "Mindsight" by Dr. Kenneth Ring about the near death experiences of blind people. It's an excellent book.

Art

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Author: LordFoolman Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 671989 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/18/2013 1:25 AM
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Free will is the equivalent of a pachinko ball.

If you are familiar with the Japanese game of pachinko, then you will get this-

The pachinko ball is of a defined weight and size. It moves through space at a determined velocity. It encounters other masses that are also of a determined weight and size with all of the physical realities that they possess.

All of this equates to pure physics. It should be possible to predict into which slot the pachinko ball will land taking all of these things into consideration, but it can't be done-

Why?

Quantum variances.

As the pachinko ball encounters the pins, slight variances in the molecules of the solid objects involved lead to different outcomes.

Human beings are machines without souls or free will.

That being said, it should be possible to predict what a person will decide if given all of the physical parameters that led to the choice. The problem with that is that there are SO many variables included in a person's processes that any attempts to predict decisions, no matter how powerful the computing device may be, would be impossible.

Free will is "virtual" because of this. We virtually have free will because there are infinite variables that cannot be predicted. While "choice" is absolutely mechanical, I wouldn't call it "predestination".

k



I don't really know khalou, although I have read his posts in years past. He nails it. I don't know whether his "conclusion" is real or correct. But his/her subtle "framing" of the free ill issue is dead on. Right on. A nice, rational springboard from which to continue discussion/debate...

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Author: TheBaronAndrew Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672143 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/18/2013 9:53 PM
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Tomorrow is Sunday so it's a church day. I like our preacher though so I don't mind, the socializing, the singing, the praying.... it's all good. I like the people there even though some of them are homophobes. I figure they can't help it though because they are ignorant. They believe it's a choice while I of course..... don't.

Actually truth be told that's the only thing that really bothers me about the Church of Christ. It's not like they are suddenly going to be enlightened about it though. It is what it is.



I recall that in my childhood Baptist church, people would get up during the service and give their testimonies. I heard a lot of interesting stories: "Before I was saved, I used to smoke, drink, curse, gamble, run around with women..." You name it. I even heard from a few that had committed more serious offenses like armed robbery, etc.

But never once did anyone get up and say, "Before I found Jesus I was a homosexual, but then He saved me from all that and now I like women." I kept waiting and waiting for someone to say that, but no one ever did.

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Author: TheBaronAndrew Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672144 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/18/2013 9:57 PM
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But one other statement that Hogan made was what really intrigued me. Hogan said that in a holographic projection there is always a certain degree of fuzziness or blurriness. The reason this statement intrigued me was because I had read many near death experience descriptions where they said that the other side, the place we call "heaven" was even more real than this side, or it was clearer than this side, or "realer than real."
-------------------------------------------------
That's good because my eyesight sucks.



Exactly what I was thinking. The Baron Andrew certainly experiences more than his share of fuzziness or blurriness.

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Author: TheBaronAndrew Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672145 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/18/2013 10:03 PM
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I just had a thought:

Perhaps "free will" is like Newtonian Physics. All the laws of Newtonian Physics fall apart if you look deeper into the quantum level and observe what is going on there. Yet despite that, Newtonian Physics appears to work perfectly in the macro world. So perfectly, in fact, that we can make accurate predictions based on its laws.

Perhaps free will is like that. It appears to work in the macro world, yet at a deeper metaphysical level something entirely different might be going on.

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Author: Jim2B Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672146 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/18/2013 10:21 PM
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Perhaps "free will" is like Newtonian Physics. All the laws of Newtonian Physics fall apart if you look deeper into the quantum level and observe what is going on there. Yet despite that, Newtonian Physics appears to work perfectly in the macro world. So perfectly, in fact, that we can make accurate predictions based on its laws.

Perhaps free will is like that. It appears to work in the macro world, yet at a deeper metaphysical level something entirely different might be going on.


This is the paradigm upon which Asimov based his fiction science of Psychohistory. Essentially that when you get large enough groups of people acting together, you can make accurate predictions of the net behavior.

A very interesting concept which has its basis in quantum mechanics, thermodynamics, etc.

An even weirder or perhaps scarier finding, is that scientists can use advanced brain imagery to determine when people make decisions. It turns out that people actually make decisions before they are consciously aware that they have made the decision. So do we actually make decisions or does our neural network brain make the decision and then we interpret that decision after the fact as something over which our consciousness had ultimate power?

Tough but very interesting questions.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672156 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/19/2013 1:34 AM
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"That's good because my eyesight sucks." - 2828
------------------------------------
Exactly what I was thinking. The Baron Andrew certainly experiences more than his share of fuzziness or blurriness." - Andrew

--------------------------


I'm glad ya'll find that comforting which is my whole point. That is all I'm trying to do. It ain't like I'm trying to get you all to sacrifice your first born children to idols or anything. I'm just trying to tell you that everything is going to be okay and it's okay to be yourself. That's it for Christ's sake.

There are quite a few NDE's of blind people who were able to see during their NDE's. - Art
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People Born Blind Can See During a NDE
Dr. Kenneth Ring's NDE Research of the Blind

"Vicki Umipeg, a forty-five year old blind woman, was just one of the more than thirty persons that Dr. Ken Ring and Sharon Cooper interviewed at length during a two-year study just completed concerning near-death experiences of the blind. The results of their study appear in their newest book Mindsight. Vicki was born blind, her optic nerve having been completely destroyed at birth because of an excess of oxygen she received in the incubator. Yet, she appears to have been able to see during her NDE. Her story is a particularly clear instance of how NDEs of the congenitally blind can unfold in precisely the same way as do those of sighted persons."

full article:

http://near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672158 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/19/2013 1:41 AM
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"I just had a thought: Perhaps "free will" is like Newtonian Physics. All the laws of Newtonian Physics fall apart if you look deeper into the quantum level and observe what is going on there. Yet despite that, Newtonian Physics appears to work perfectly in the macro world. So perfectly, in fact, that we can make accurate predictions based on its laws. Perhaps free will is like that. It appears to work in the macro world, yet at a deeper metaphysical level something entirely different might be going on." - Andrew
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Exactly. At a deeper level there are things going on that we aren't privvy to. Reasons why things are the way they are, even though at our level we "see through a glass darkly." Physicists tell me it's true, NDE's say the exact same thing, and I even see it in the stories of the New Testament. Three different sources and they all tell me there is a deeper hidden reality we aren't privvy to. What I'm saying is that if "this" is true then it means "this." "This" is the implications if it is true, and since these three sources are all in agreement, I have a high degree of confidence that it is true. - Art

from an interview with Dr. Brian Greene in National Geographic:

"In the final chapter of your book, you suggest that the world may be a hologram. That sounds very Matrix-like."

"It's a very speculative idea that seems to, strangely enough, naturally emerge from string theory. Basically, the fundamental laws of the universe don't really operate in the environment around us. They may operate on sort of a distant bounding surface and give rise to the familiar world that we experience in much the same way that a thin piece of plastic, when illuminated correctly—if it's a hologram—can yield a three-dimensional image.

It might be that the deep laws are more like the thin piece of plastic existing on a thin bounding surface. Everything we know might be akin to a holographic projection of those distant laws."


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/03/0326_040326_...

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672159 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/19/2013 1:43 AM
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"An even weirder or perhaps scarier finding, is that scientists can use advanced brain imagery to determine when people make decisions. It turns out that people actually make decisions before they are consciously aware that they have made the decision. So do we actually make decisions or does our neural network brain make the decision and then we interpret that decision after the fact as something over which our consciousness had ultimate power?" - Jim
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Which is my point entirely. I have read those articles. The implications are that the information is coming from somewhere else outside our wakened consciousness. It's being "downloaded" from somewhere.

We are doing exactly what we are supposed to do.

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672161 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/19/2013 2:01 AM
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Ya'll act like I'm trying to get you to send me money or join my church or something? Like I'm asking you to sacrifice to idols, cut yourself or shave your heads and wear saffron robes and stand outside airports and trying to convert people. That ain't it at all.

All I'm trying to do is to get you to let go of your hatred. Quit bitching and complaining. Telling you that everything is going to be all right. Something based on Quantum physics, not religion. That something outside of yourself is in control and that we are all going to be okay.

That's it. Jim's post about decisions being made beforehand hints at it. It's like a puzzle and I'm telling you I think I've put the pieces together and I think I know what the puzzle says and means.

There is no hell, there is no devil. All there is is this side we're in now and the other side, the holographic film it's a projection from. At the death of our physical body "the soul" migrates back to that film which means that whatever is "here" is "there." We don't lose anything and all the things we loved and lost on this side... we get them back.

Art

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672166 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/19/2013 8:26 AM
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All I'm trying to do is to get you to let go of your hatred. Quit bitching and complaining

I answered this topic yesterday. I even sent you a copy of the post privately. If liberals would stop violating my personal space and trying to run my life, I'd stop "hating." Your anger is focused on the wrong people.

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Author: LordFoolman Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672168 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/19/2013 9:00 AM
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An even weirder or perhaps scarier finding, is that scientists can use advanced brain imagery to determine when people make decisions. It turns out that people actually make decisions before they are consciously aware that they have made the decision. So do we actually make decisions or does our neural network brain make the decision and then we interpret that decision after the fact as something over which our consciousness had ultimate power?



I've come across these studies too and find them very fascinating. Apparently, it's something like a few seconds before when their decision is made, but the conscious mind doesn't realize it until later.

However, here's one exception though. Imagine if you were testing your reflexes. and in front of you are two lights, side by side. And you are told to hit one of the two buttons that lights up. I've done this at science museums and such and can do this (and make a decision to hit the left or right button) within like 0.20-0.30 seconds , which is just barely an instant. Or maybe, you catch a fork falling off the dinner table....or avoid hitting an oncoming car. How do these decision differ from the ones in which a neuroscientists can detect your decision making seconds in advance of your conscious mind doing so?

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Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672786 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/24/2013 1:02 AM
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However, here's one exception though. Imagine if you were testing your reflexes. and in front of you are two lights, side by side. And you are told to hit one of the two buttons that lights up. I've done this at science museums and such and can do this (and make a decision to hit the left or right button) within like 0.20-0.30 seconds , which is just barely an instant. Or maybe, you catch a fork falling off the dinner table....or avoid hitting an oncoming car. How do these decision differ from the ones in which a neuroscientists can detect your decision making seconds in advance of your conscious mind doing so?

You should read Sam Harris' book "Free Will". It's a very short book, but packs a punch-

k

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Author: RocketsMomma Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 672813 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 2/24/2013 12:22 PM
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An even weirder or perhaps scarier finding, is that scientists can use advanced brain imagery to determine when people make decisions. It turns out that people actually make decisions before they are consciously aware that they have made the decision. So do we actually make decisions or does our neural network brain make the decision and then we interpret that decision after the fact as something over which our consciousness had ultimate power?

Has or can anyone determine if this initial decision is actually what the person acts on, or could the screwed up wiring in the brain of say a sociopath or psychopath actually alter how that person's brain interprets that decision and acts accordingly? or is that wiring involved in the initial decision?

So much is unknown.

RM

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Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 678571 of 734713
Subject: Re: Free Will Date: 4/21/2013 1:38 AM
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So much is unknown.

And so much is known.

Read Sam Harris' "Free Will"

k

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