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Author: jh2b Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 36686  
Subject: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/15/2001 3:13 PM
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I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan
back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral
damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit
discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard
because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell
anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden.
There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the
atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those
monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're
not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is
a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis.
When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people
of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."

It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the
Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated,
suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are
500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy,
no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying
these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land
mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few
of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to
the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of
it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level
their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done.
Eradicate
their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off
from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all
that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would
they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan,
only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd
slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled
orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But
flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against
the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only
be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people
they've been raping all this time

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now
speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is
to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand.
What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because
some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan
to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because
to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would
they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be
first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going.
We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly
what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements.
It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the
West. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view.
He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would
mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just
theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13190 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/15/2001 4:36 PM
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Wonderful post. Why not post on Political Asylum? I can pretty much assure you that you'll get a respectful hearing.

This may have broken since you posted: Pakistan just acceded to all US requests. The only thing still up in the air is whether they will add their own ground troops.

From what I'm hearing, there might be an airstrike, but the main show will come later. You can believe it that the Yanks are coming--on the ground, along with the Brits, at least. Pakistan would not have needed to grant access to allied troops otherwise. And your post gives me some confidence that Afganistan will cease to be a sanctuary for the Taliban et al once some real relief comes, the mines are dug up, and your country is restored. Are you ready to go back and help?

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Author: Paper59 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13192 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/15/2001 4:44 PM
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It's all about thinking and coming 'outside the box'.....

P59

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Author: hugebabyboy Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13193 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/15/2001 4:45 PM
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And your post gives me some confidence that Afganistan will cease to be a sanctuary for the Taliban et al once some real relief comes, the mines are dug up, and your country is restored. Are you ready to go back and help?

I doubt he is. I have a feeling that when he first saw the attack of WTC on TV, his first thought was, "Oh crap, what are the Americans gonna do to us Middle Easterners and look-alikes now?", instead of "Oh no, the building is on fire and people are dying."

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Author: eboller Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13194 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/15/2001 4:46 PM
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Wonderful post. Why not post on Political Asylum? I can pretty much assure you that you'll get a respectful hearing.

I posted a link to this thread earlier on the PA board =). It is a great post.

Eric

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Author: berkmberk1 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13195 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/15/2001 5:56 PM
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Too much there to copy, so I'll just rec......

Something has to be done, and it probably will not end up being pretty. All we can do is pray very hard (and I mean that literally) that whatever course of action is ultimately taken, that it is well thought out and well executed. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for innocents to suffer if it can be helped. Those who think more bluntly ( as in dull, unthinkingly) stop for a moment and consider: the warring factions in the Middle East have been going at it for more than a millenia....the factions in the Balkans have been going at it for more than a millenia...more recently, the Irish have been going at it for more than a century......it is plainly (after weeding out the background reasons)"you hurt mine....I'll hurt yours!" Believe it or not, this is a Holy War. It isn't political....no one wants to enslave us....no one wants our property.....they want us dead. At this point in time it is only a relatively small, highly motivated, well financed, spiritually devout group(s), with a leader(s) who'es motivations are reflect those of a small following. This has, however, the distinct possibility of becoming a repeat of the Crusades! War with NO quarter! Sounds hoo-ah and macho, until you realize that it could mean your baby daughter, your mother, your priest or minister, etc. This won't be WWI or II, Korea, Vietnam, or all of them put together. If it happens, it will be the worst thing that has ever happened on the face of the earth.

It is important to say, also, that not refraining from striking out at other innocents, ie. our own citizens of Middle Eastern descent, could, without stretching it too far, lead to a fatal dissent in this country. Heck....if someone picked on YOU too much, wouldn't YOU strike back? Isn't that what we are contemplating right now re. Bin Laden/Afghanistan? Isn't that what is happening right here in not a few places?

Think deeply about what each and every one of you is prepared to do, support, and accept. This has EVERY potential to develop into a situation that could be the end of the world as we know it.

I believe in God...I worship Him as best as someone like me can...I can disagree with someone who goes about it in a different way.....but I can respect him when he says he too worships God. I can't hate him. I can, however feel ill will toward ANYONE who preys on or harms innocent PEOPLE (here or elsewhere). These are the enemies of everyone. They do no one good. They only bring harm to those seeking peace.

I pray to God that he protect and bring peace to ALL those who seek it.
We are all brothers and sisters, whatever else we may be.

Peace,

Mike

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Author: jiml8 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13196 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/15/2001 6:28 PM
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I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan
back to the Stone Age."


Presuming we accept every statement that you make about Afghanistan as completely true, two questions appear: First, if Afghanistan is so badly off, how did they manage to beat the Soviets?

Second, if Afghans would "exult" if we entered and occupied, why would we need to fear massive American deaths in the fighting? Pakistan WILL let us pass through. It would not even be necessary for us to conquer Pakistan, should that become necessary, it would only be necessary for us to support India in conquering Pakistan.

Also, don't forget the possibility that Russia will let us pass through and enter from that direction. Given the problems that Russia has had with Afghanistan since the fall of the Soviet Empire, it is a very real possibility that they would permit us passage.

We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

The opening shots of the world war have already been fired. The moderate and conservative Islamics will not support the radicalists. The radicalists will be destroyed.

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Author: jiml8 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13197 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/15/2001 6:30 PM
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I doubt he is. I have a feeling that when he first saw the attack of WTC on TV, his first thought was, "Oh crap, what are the Americans gonna do to us Middle Easterners and look-alikes now?", instead of "Oh no, the building is on fire and people are dying."

You do yourself, all of us, and all devout Muslim-Americans a huge disservice by this kind of attitude.

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Author: holthusen Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13198 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/15/2001 6:36 PM
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Presuming we accept every statement that you make about Afghanistan as completely true, two questions appear: First, if Afghanistan is so badly off, how did they manage to beat the Soviets?


Because they had lots of outside help....
Mostly from America.


Second, if Afghans would "exult" if we entered and occupied, why would we need to fear massive American deaths in the fighting?


If it`s only Afghanistan, the death toll is not going to be that high.
Unless of course all the mountaineous regions are supposed to be conquered and held.

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Author: berkmberk1 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13199 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/15/2001 6:52 PM
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...two questions appear: First, if Afghanistan is so badly off, how did they manage to beat the Soviets?

The same way the Vietnamese beat the French and us....a will to do whatever it took to win.....including WILLINGLY giving up their lives for their cause.

Second, if Afghans would "exult" if we entered and occupied, why would we need to fear massive American deaths in the fighting? Pakistan WILL let us pass through. It would not even be necessary for us to conquer Pakistan, should that become necessary, it would only be necessary for us to support India in conquering Pakistan.

First part answered above.....second.....would YOU set two nuclear armed hatreds against each other? Sort of defeats the purpose of a staging area if you can't use it due to fallout! The whole purpose is to bring to justice those who did this deed and prevent it from happening again, anywhere. The desired result is not to ignite warfare, indeed, nuclear warfare, in the process.

Also, don't forget the possibility that Russia will let us pass through and enter from that direction. Given the problems that Russia has had with Afghanistan since the fall of the Soviet Empire, it is a very real possibility that they would permit us passage.

We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

The opening shots of the world war have already been fired. The moderate and conservative Islamics will not support the radicalists. The radicalists will be destroyed.

Optimism is commendible.....it isn't necessarily reality.....they first and foremost owe allegiance to Allah, then to each other.....this is not a jibe...it is a reality.....they may not agree on everything, but if they feel that an attack is unjust against a member of a group, they side with the member.......this is something that has slowly been eroding in our own society and culture. For us its every man for himself......that is not the way in many parts of the world.......

Again, to paraphrase your own words...they managed to beat the Soviets. A nation that is contiguous and therefore has few logistical concerns. A nation that has an unlimited manpower resource (conscription), a nation that used chemical weapons, mass bombing, armor, and special forces. A nation that while fighting on the Afghan front, found itself fighting inside its own borders, terrorist elements that supported the regime in Kabul.

Might does not make right, is an old adage.......you can also say that Might does not ensure victory......

Mike

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Author: Wilsonsjulie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13201 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/15/2001 8:38 PM
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I am a bit suprised that a link was not provided for the start of this thread:

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=15746682


I saw this writing originally on the GorillaGame Listserve email several days ago.

I think providing links and references is a good idea to give people some frame of reference as to who the original writer is


~julie~

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Author: AverageJo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13203 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/15/2001 9:11 PM
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"I've been hearing a lot of talk about 'bombing Afghanistan
back to the Stone Age'."


From what the original poster wrote, that would set them back what.... about three weeks?

~josie



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Author: phatsack420 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13204 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/16/2001 12:02 AM
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Hi JH, excellent post!! I have been reading up on Afghanistan and it is heartbreaking. I pray that there will be resoloution that will rid us of the Taliban and not hurt your people. I have some questions for you if you wouldnt mind please- 1- Whats your opinion of the Northern Alliance? 2-Is is conceiveable that we could provide air cover and arm the Northern Alliance for the ground movement to successfully eradicate the Taliban? 3-I read in some Islamic papers that Ahmad Shaw Massoud was killed the other day by a suicide bomber-is there any truth to that or is that propaganda? I wish Afghanistan good luck, may you reclaim your country, power to RAWA.
God Bless America!!
Peter

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Author: Spagheddie Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13205 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/16/2001 12:56 AM
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phatsack420,

JH is only posting the article that the former Aghani wrote. It's not his original writing.

Ed

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Author: MSHH Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13206 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/16/2001 2:32 AM
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>>I think providing links and references is a good idea to give people some frame of reference as to who the original writer is<<

Julie,

I just wanted to say I agree with you. I have seen this message from an "Afghani-American writer" posted on at least four or five boards now. Sometimes the poster has attempted to provide a link to the source and sometimes, as in the case of jh2b, the message has been posted without any effort to provide a link or reference.

Sometimes the message is linked to a writer called Tamim, who is supposedly from Afghanistan and therefore has a certain credibility. Or at least that is what we are supposed to believe. But we really don't know who originally wrote the message and what their agenda might be. It doesn't help when people post the message at TMF as if it is their own writing and thinking.

I'm just surprised that just because a post is titled "From an Afghani-American Writer" some people seem ready to accept that and the message as the truth. It may or may not be the truth. There's no way to tell without really knowing who wrote the message.

Bush says we are at war. I'm reminded of the aphorism that the first casualty in any war is the truth. I hope we aren't seeing examples of that already.

Mike






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Author: LadyRollingStone Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13207 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/16/2001 4:22 AM
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How about this for answer.............

collect about 25,000 cell phones and activate them and include special batteries........drop them in bundles all around Afganistan along with relief food and med's etc. include directions for using the phones to call and report where Bin Laden and /or the Taliban may be hiding. the village or town or whatever that pins him down so commandos can go in and extract him win the 10 mill reward being offered. make the distribution of the reward very public and televise the beginnings of new building or farms with the money. make sure every poor belieguered muslims, jews, christians, whatever see that they can profit from turning these guys in. if these people really really want rid of these terrorists, this would work and they would get some much needed relief as a bonus.

Pegasus

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Author: SandyMack Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13210 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/16/2001 3:40 PM
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Sometimes the message is linked to a writer called Tamim, who is supposedly from Afghanistan and therefore has a certain credibility. Or at least that is what we are supposed to believe. But we really don't know who originally wrote the message and what their agenda might be...I'm just surprised that just because a post is titled "From an Afghani-American Writer" some people seem ready to accept that and the message as the truth. It may or may not be the truth. There's no way to tell without really knowing who wrote the message.

I must take exception to this skepticism which seems to arise solely from ignorance of Afghanistan and it's history. As one who has traveled in that country…not only to Kabul, but in the Hindu Kush mountains to the north…and has followed the politics (in U.S as well as international publications) there over the intervening 30 years as well, I saw nothing in that account that should be suspect. The Afghan people are as far removed politically from the Taliban and from bin Laden as are Americans from the legacy of Nixon. Even before the decade-long war with Russia, Afghanistan was one of the poorest countries in the world and those ten years left in complete ruin what little there was to start. Want to visit the Stone Age today? Go to Afghanistan. It's some of the roughest and most unforgiving countryside you'll find anywhere in the world. The “man-in-the-goatpath” has no love whatsoever for the radical religious zealots who make up the dictatorship of the Taliban. He is as innocent as those who sat at their desks last Tuesday morning in the WTC.

Sandy



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Author: davidbtdi Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13218 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/16/2001 5:18 PM
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Want to visit the Stone Age today? Go to Afghanistan...
The “man-in-the-goatpath” has no love whatsoever for the radical religious zealots who make up the dictatorship of the Taliban. He is as innocent as those who sat at their desks last Tuesday morning in the WTC.

Thank you SandyMack for an intelligent (and compassionate) post.


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Author: Janegayne Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13224 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/17/2001 2:26 AM
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It doesn't help when people post the message at TMF as if it is their own writing and thinking.


Mike, (MSHH)

I don't think, that anybody who know's Jim (jh2b) would have thought, that the message was from him and that he posted it as "his own writing and thinking"!

Most of the board's have their usual member's and they quite know each other! I understood the meaning and "how" of Jim's message, because we know him.
If I just come around and see something, that I don't agree with on an other board, I would hold back to say something and let the usual boardmember's take care of the correction!!! (if necessary)

JMHO

Please don't take offense! I'm just protecting our boardmember's and boardspirit!! :-)

Janny






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Author: jh2b Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13231 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/17/2001 9:33 AM
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Sorry, Julie, I was gone for a day. There's no link, cuz it came to me me from a friend by email

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Author: jh2b Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13235 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/17/2001 9:44 AM
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Mike,
I got an email from up the line that attributes the article to Tamim Ansary. I merely posted it because it was a good read and a came down to me through a writer/photgrapher that I respect. I wasn't trying to make a statement or put forward any ideaology. I had no idea that the thread would take off like that. I posted just before I left and so didn't know all this was going on.

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Author: jh2b Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 13237 of 36686
Subject: Re: From an Aghani-American writer Date: 9/17/2001 9:48 AM
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Thanks Janny and Ed for defending me. Yes, the reason I posted it here instead of Current Events or one of the other boards is that you guys know me, and would take it for what it's worth.

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