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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 63113  
Subject: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/27/2012 8:05 AM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/27/nyregion/new-york-city-enc...
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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46395 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/27/2012 11:02 AM
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Great...they've paid a boatload of federal taxes.


they've paid a boatload of state taxes

they've paid a boatload of town taxes.

So why shouldn't they be eligible for rebuiliding help?

The fact that they have taxed themselves 3000 bucks a year to maintain their own streets for decades should be a plus in your book. That means more money to maintain the OTHER streets in the town for the last 80 or 100 years, right?

Now, after all those years of supporting others...you complain?

YOu've got a lot of nerve....

t.

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Author: FoolYap Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46396 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/27/2012 11:09 AM
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One must resist head-banging the desk every time something like this happens, because one's head would be very dented. The Galters rant about "unfair taxation" and "socialism", but boy howdy! does "socialism" ever look good when it benefits them.

It's so fun to be a rugged individualist until the unexpected bills come due.

Personally, I'd be happy to send a big "screw you" back to these dopes. Why the hell should the city (read: everyone else) pay for their repairs to their "private" roads and facilities?

--FY

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46397 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/27/2012 11:21 AM
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FY:"One must resist head-banging the desk every time something like this happens, because one's head would be very dented. The Galters rant about "unfair taxation" and "socialism", but boy howdy! does "socialism" ever look good when it benefits them."


Oh...you LIE LIE as FNMH would say.

The folks in the gated community PAY ALL the local tax rate. THey don't get a break. In addition, they pay 'fees' of thousands a year. They support tens of thousands of welfare weenies in subsidized housing like this article talks about.....

And everyone bit*ches about taxes.....so they are 'entitled' to do it too. The median income in those 'enclaves' is not much higher than in most of the NYC area, right?

You did read the article, right?

------



FY:"It's so fun to be a rugged individualist until the unexpected bills come due."


Wow...you are are off base on that. So they live in a gated community. Duh!....

You know, the first thing my parents did in 1948, when they could afford it, was move to the suburbs of NYC to 'escape' the dirt, hustle and bustle of NYC apartment living They bought a house in lilly white River Edge, NJ.....in a giant single family town of post WW2 service men and women....who wanted to raise families. There weren't any 'poor' folks in town. If you wanted to live there, you had to buy a house. $16,000 for a two bedroom cape cod type house with unfinished attic and basement on a 75 x 105 foot lot. They picked their neighborhood. It stayed that way the whole time I grew up there.

So?

It was the 'community' the selected. I don't recall a single 'African American' in the entire school system I was there.

So?

-----

When they retired, they moved to a private mobile home park in FL. Gated at night to keep out the riff raff. The paid the town taxes AND they paid the park fees to maintain the pool, the roads, the trees, the community beach house on the ocean front....and yep, the parking on nearly all the streets to prevent 'day trippers' from crowding out the locals. So?

-------




FY:"Personally, I'd be happy to send a big "screw you" back to these dopes. Why the hell should the city (read: everyone else) pay for their repairs to their "private" roads and facilities?"

They were talking about the WATER system and SEWER system and the sea wall.....and they are also residents of the town. They paid water and sewer taxes for their entire life......they paid road taxes FOR THE OTHERS.....in the town.

The rest of the town benefited from NOT HAVING to maintain their roads for decades.

------

If you agree that these folks shouldn't have to pay for the repair of other people's roads....we might have a deal...but of course, they'll be paying for those repairs, too, right?


you want your cake and want to eat it and then redistribute it yet one more time, it seems.


t.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46398 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/27/2012 12:06 PM
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Interesting issue.


I'd say the bottom line is that local government can refuse assistance to such communities. The opportunity for pay back for those excluded from such neighborhoods is at hand!

But is that really wise or justified?

Here are communities that have maintained their own infrastructure often for many decades, reducing the costs to local government even while their exclusivity probably INCREASED the taxes paid.

Is it wise to kill that golden goose for political reasons? You might wind up drastically reducing taxes on a permanent basis.

On the other hand, if you play hardball, you may simply wipe out the current owners and have Bain Capital or whatever buy up the properties cheap, rebuild and sell to new owners, establishing a new Galt's Gulch.

Perhaps a new New York billionaire will find buying up whole areas and rebuilding like Vanderbilt to be an attractive proposition.

Presumably the fundamental attractiveness and value of the property is still there.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46399 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/27/2012 1:07 PM
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"On the other hand, if you play hardball, you may simply wipe out the current owners and have Bain Capital or whatever buy up the properties cheap, rebuild and sell to new owners, establishing a new Galt's Gulch.

Perhaps a new New York billionaire will find buying up whole areas and rebuilding like Vanderbilt to be an attractive proposition.

Presumably the fundamental attractiveness and value of the property is still there."


-----

Let's see....

We could have some 'rich' democratic donor/well connected political vulture capitalist move in..to what was a single family higher end neighborhood.......and buy it up 'on the cheap'.

Then, we knock down all the storm damaged houses, open all the streets to the rest of the city's residents, and demand the city rebuilt 'all the infrastructure' to the tune of a billion dollars. The new 'sea wall'. The brand new streets, sewers, water, .....


Then build gigantic apartment complexes, renting out 20% of them to 'lower income folks' likely with 8 kids apiece. Lots of federal housing money would flow. 8 or 10 or 12 story monsters like CAbrini Greens....

Thus, we'd instantly overload the school system requiring the city to build an entire new school to handle the influx of low income families. The state would have to fork over more in food stamps and housing allowances.

The tax base 'might' go up, then again it might not. In any event, the 'tax take' won't begin to pay for the new services required...police, fire, social workers, new teachers, new buildings, new janitors....


or maybe the land could be sold to an Indian tribe to set up a new gambling casino?



t.

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46400 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/27/2012 1:18 PM
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If you are going to use general tax fund revenues to rebuild the streets, then the streets should be open to everyone. This is not complicated.

If you choose to wall yourself off from "the rest of us", then don't come to the rest of us for financial assistance when your privacy plan doesn't work in your favor.

In the interest of public health and the common good, I have no problem clearing our their sewers, and even putting their water supply back in operating condition. But I wouldn't be willing to provide for private access with public monies. I wouldn't repair their walls and razor wire, I wouldn't spend on building them a sea wall, and I wouldn't use tax revenues to rebuild houses or other private properties since these residents, themselves, made the decision to sequester themselves from the rest of society.

How amusing that those who most loudly champion "personal responsibility for your decisions" suddenly want to go back in time and take the benefits of commonality, even as they want to continue their segregated lifestyle at public expense. They made a choice. I'd be willing to allow them to change that choice, but it would have to be totally, completely,cand irrevocably. I wonder how many would accept that?

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46402 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/27/2012 3:18 PM
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<<How amusing that those who most loudly champion "personal responsibility for your decisions" suddenly want to go back in time and take the benefits of commonality, even as they want to continue their segregated lifestyle at public expense. They made a choice. I'd be willing to allow them to change that choice, but it would have to be totally, completely,cand irrevocably. I wonder how many would accept that?>>


Oh, I don't find it at all surprising that people's principles are abandoned in the face of disaster. That's perfectly human.


Less understandable are those who have no principles and seek to game the system by using the government for private gain. That's one of the main reasons to prefer a small government. The number of vultures willing to exploit government for private gain seems limitless, as are their appetites.


Seattle Pioneer

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46409 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/28/2012 9:54 AM
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Everybody is entitled to free stuff. 0bama said he is the President of all Americans. Where's MY free stuff?



In line with the slugs and parasites to get my fair share of free stuff.

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Author: SpeedBump13 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46411 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/28/2012 12:24 PM
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"razor-wire-topped fences and armed security checkpoints that keep outsiders from its streets,
...preserved its exclusivity with the promise that the residents would assume the costs of community upkeep"

What's to discuss? Could it be any more clear than that? Not one dime of anyone's tax money should go to them.

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Author: karenlj Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46412 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/28/2012 2:51 PM
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If you are going to use general tax fund revenues to rebuild the streets, then the streets should be open to everyone. This is not complicated.

If you choose to wall yourself off from "the rest of us", then don't come to the rest of us for financial assistance when your privacy plan doesn't work in your favor.

In the interest of public health and the common good, I have no problem clearing our their sewers, and even putting their water supply back in operating condition. But I wouldn't be willing to provide for private access with public monies. I wouldn't repair their walls and razor wire, I wouldn't spend on building them a sea wall, and I wouldn't use tax revenues to rebuild houses or other private properties since these residents, themselves, made the decision to sequester themselves from the rest of society.

How amusing that those who most loudly champion "personal responsibility for your decisions" suddenly want to go back in time and take the benefits of commonality, even as they want to continue their segregated lifestyle at public expense. They made a choice. I'd be willing to allow them to change that choice, but it would have to be totally, completely, and irrevocably. I wonder how many would accept that?


I disagree.

I am not a fan of gated communities, but the residents are still citizens, they are still tax-payers. You don't want to contribute to repairing or protecting their private property, but you don't object to repairing and protecting the private property of those who do not live in gated communities.

Under usual circumstances, the residents of gated communities pay their own expenses, including the expenses of maintaining their roads. Disaster relief is for disasters, and it is for all. Protecting the private property of the citizenry, even to the extent of constructing seawalls, is for the benefit of all, not just those living on public streets.

Karen
Liberal

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Author: FoolYap Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46414 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/28/2012 5:17 PM
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I am not a fan of gated communities, but the residents are still citizens, they are still tax-payers. You don't want to contribute to repairing or protecting their private property, but you don't object to repairing and protecting the private property of those who do not live in gated communities.

If their streets are not public streets, why should public money pay to repair them?

If my tax money went to repair them, I think I'd have a right to expect to be able to use them afterwards. Ergo, they couldn't be private any more.

--FY

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Author: karenlj Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46415 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/28/2012 5:38 PM
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I am not a fan of gated communities, but the residents are still citizens, they are still tax-payers. You don't want to contribute to repairing or protecting their private property, but you don't object to repairing and protecting the private property of those who do not live in gated communities.
______________________________________________

If their streets are not public streets, why should public money pay to repair them?

If my tax money went to repair them, I think I'd have a right to expect to be able to use them afterwards. Ergo, they couldn't be private any more.

--FY


So if my tax money goes to repair your house, we should all be able to use your house afterwards?

Public money goes to pay to repair private houses and other private property--why should private roads be excluded? If the residents choose to maintain the roads when there is no disaster, then the taxpayer is actually saving money. I maintain that disaster relief is for disasters and we should not be penalizing because we aren't invited to their parties. Or whatever.

If we cover private property of one kind, why would we exclude private property of another kind?

Karen

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Author: FoolYap Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46417 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/28/2012 7:25 PM
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So if my tax money goes to repair your house, we should all be able to use your house afterwards?

I'm not sure that tax money should go to repair my house, either. (Personally I'd draw the line and not allow any public funds be used to repair non-primary dwellings. Not even sure it's right to do so for primary dwellings. At least in my state, I'm required to buy home owner's insurance, and that IMHO is how it ought to be.)

If we cover private property of one kind, why would we exclude private property of another kind?

Because it's a slippery slope. One could reasonably make the argument that a dwelling is "special" property. But if you start allowing public monies to repair any private property, where does it stop? Should tax money be used to repair the vehicles that want to drive on those private roads as well?

--FY

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46418 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/28/2012 11:15 PM
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Let's look at it this way


If the sea wall is not repaired, water will come in and flood adjacent properties not in the gated communities.....


If the sand that flowed onto the streets came from the public beaches and oceans...... then it should be the public that puts that sand back on the beaches......

If all the pollution that came in along with the water didn't come from oil tanks and other facilities......owned by others.......then you might make a case that clean up is only with 'clean sea water'not contaminated by pollution from others...and you and I know that is not true....

I'd bet the city collects big fat monthly checks for delivering water, INCLUDING maintaining the water pipes......


I'd bet the city collects big fat sewer fees from everyone for gathering and processing the sewerage.... no matter where in the city they live.

So why shouldn't the city fix the sewers? And the water system? and the sea wall....at least partially? and remove the sand from the roads and fix the pavement?

The folks have paid for it for decades.


THe fact that you can't seem to accept that is nothing but a bad case of 'wealth envy'.

t.

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46434 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/29/2012 2:58 PM
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So if my tax money goes to repair your house, we should all be able to use your house afterwards?

FEMA does not pay to replace your house. They typically don't even pay enough for all the repairs necessary, although they may give you enough to get some basic systems going, or perhaps house you for some period if your home is uninhabitable.

I suspect they might help a gated community clear downed trees and power lines, but if the community has decided the streets are private, then they ought not be fully repaired with public monies unless the public can use them.

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Author: karenlj Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46436 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/29/2012 3:32 PM
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So if my tax money goes to repair your house, we should all be able to use your house afterwards?

FEMA does not pay to replace your house. They typically don't even pay enough for all the repairs necessary, although they may give you enough to get some basic systems going, or perhaps house you for some period if your home is uninhabitable.

I suspect they might help a gated community clear downed trees and power lines, but if the community has decided the streets are private, then they ought not be fully repaired with public monies unless the public can use them.


And that makes perfect sense. Equal treatment.

Karen

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 46446 of 63113
Subject: Re: Galt's Gulch asks for government assistance Date: 11/30/2012 3:20 AM
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FoolYap wrote: The Galters rant about "unfair taxation" and "socialism", but boy howdy! does "socialism" ever look good when it benefits them. It's so fun to be a rugged individualist until the unexpected bills come due.

Pffft! The money's there, so I (if I experienced a catastrophe) would take it.

If it wasn't there, I'd still cope--because I'm a rugged individualist.

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