Message Font: Serif | Sans-Serif
 
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (37) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Author: chilero One star, 50 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 157041  
Subject: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/15/2012 2:54 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
This is an excellent read comparing the movie "Gangs of New York" to the current Microsoft and Apple battle. Written by a former MSFT employee now working for Amazon.

http://www.manyniches.com/success-factors/the-gangs-of-new-w...

I know many at the FOOL have already written of the Surface tablet but I believe they have become victims of the Apple hype to some extent.

A rumored $400 million Surface campaign begins tonight on Monday Night Football and Dancing with Stars.

My non-analyst guess is that the Surface is going to be a huge sleeper hit and surprise the non-believers. Android tablets will almost disappear under the onslaught of the Surface and the OEM tablets/hybrids (except the Kindle Fire). The market share for the iPad will fall, but still be a force.
Print the post Back To Top
Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155932 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/15/2012 3:40 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
We will have to see.

I know every little about Windows 8 admittedly. I do know that the government has basically reached a tipping point in its ongoing anti-trust investigation into Google. They've invested so much time and effort, and Google isn't budging or blinking that charges at some point seem inevitable (I don't want to get into a political discussion, I would say charges are inevitable regardless or administration). Too much time, effort and money, and a growing case that Google is inflating its own results to its own properties.

The irony of this "distraction" is just like in the case of Microsoft, the wheels of justice turn so slow that by the time and finding is made, and any potential punishment given, the train will have moved so far down the path that the finding will be irrelevant, but could wound Google worse than if justice moved faster.

I don't think Android tablets will "go away," too much ecosystem in place now. I do think if Windows 8 and the tablets are viable/priced right the march will be slowed.

When I look at Microsoft I ask myself this question. Can they do the same good job they've done managing Microsoft Office and Office 365 together, while holding back the tide of Open Office and Google Docs (gee, wasn't Microsoft Office supposed to be dead by now so claimed some experts). Microsoft and the Office team have done an excellent job in the balancing act.

Or, will this be another sad Windows Phone style flop.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155933 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/15/2012 3:44 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I certainly aren't hearing much real-world buzz about Windows 8 or the Surface tablets.

Of course, for the tablets, it may be because they had a big announcement months ago, which has allowed plenty of time for people to forget about them (or write them off as the same vaporware as the last time MSFT announced a major tablet initiative). They should really take a page from Apple's playbook and wait until closer to launch to start announcing these things. That way, they'd only have to keep the buzz going for about a week to 10 days between the announcement and the actual launch.

dsbrady

Print the post Back To Top
Author: chilero One star, 50 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155934 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/15/2012 5:37 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Sorry
"have already written of the Surface tablet" should be "have already written OFF the Surface tablet"

Print the post Back To Top
Author: FoolSolo Big red star, 1000 posts Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155935 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/15/2012 6:05 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
I've been in software development, focused on Microsoft, for over 20 years. The challenge my companies have always struggled with is how much change (pain threshold) can the customer tolerate before they decide to consider switching to another platform? There is no straight answer, but the general consensus is when the pain of sticking with the platform is nearly as painful as switching to another platform (give or take 10-20%) they will look at other options.

I get the sense from my personal experience and what I have seen in demos that many casual users will struggle going from XP or Win7 to Win8. Power users should be able to make the transition a little easier, but not painlessly. That means almost all users will have some kind of challenge adopting Win8. By contrast, the upgrade from XP to Win7 was pretty intuitive and relatively easy, almost effortless. In my personal opinion, that does not bode well for Microsoft.

Adding even more to the migration challenge is the touch interface versus the mouse. Old habits die hard, but more importantly, new habits are much harder to make. When Apple and Android developed the touch interfaces, they were specifically for small, portable, phone use. Touch doesn't work well all when it comes to precision work, which makes authoring of content on anything other than a mouse-based OS extremely intolerable. This is akin to the initial switch from DOS/Text to GUI based. Eventually the GUI won, but that does not necessarily mean touch will prevail over mice.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155936 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/15/2012 6:54 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Old habits die hard, but more importantly, new habits are much harder to make.

Number of personal computer users in the US: 223,810,000

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-perso...

Number of cell phones in the US: 327,577,529

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_...

Seems like people would prever their PC and their phone work the same, rather than have to learn two different ways of doing things, and since there are more phones, it's on the PC to emulate it.

Pew: 17% Of U.S. Cell Phone Users Now Mostly Use Their Phones To Go Online

However, 17% of U.S. adult cell phone owners now go online using their phones more than their desktops, laptops or tablets...Just looking at those who already use their phones to go online (55% of all cell phone owners), a whopping 31% now say they mostly use their phones to go online.


http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/26/pew-17-of-u-s-cell-phone-us...

Steve

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155937 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/15/2012 7:50 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Seems like people would prever their PC and their phone work the same, rather than have to learn two different ways of doing things, and since there are more phones, it's on the PC to emulate it.

I've seen no research that says people would prefer their phones and PC's to work the same, and I don't happen to think it's true. Nobody I know wants a touch-screen desktop interface, and even fewer want a phone that works with a mouse - or even a stylus.

While there may be some commonalities (QWERTY keyboard, anyone?, Browser?) there are far more things that are different and nobody seems to mind. The "Music" on an iPhone works quite differently than on an iPod (no clickwheel, for instance), but I have never heard a complaint about that.

As I have said before there are some things that people want to work the same (or at least think they want to work the same.) Office, specifically the ability to open, edit, and save Word documents. Whether people really want to work on a big Excel spreadsheet or edit a PowerPoint presentation is a question mark, for me at least, but Word? Big.

I think Surface has a decent chance on garnering sales, mostly at the expense of Android. I'm pretty sure Apple fans are Apple fans, and the presence of lower priced options hasn't tempted them, but Android tablets are fungible (and more to the point, likely to be made by the same manufacturers to who will be producing Surface tablets), so except for a licensing fee for the OS and perhaps a different chip, I expect them to be relatively the same.

But if "sameness" is the thing you crave, then Microsoft is making a big mistake forcing people to learn a new interface, users might as well learn the iPad instead. (I don't really expect that, I just find the "same interface" argument weak, although it might gain traction 3-5 years down the road as users are "forced" to confront the new interface on their desktops as those are replaced.)

Of course, for the tablets, it may be because they had a big announcement months ago, which has allowed plenty of time for people to forget about them (or write them off as the same vaporware as the last time MSFT announced a major tablet initiative). They should really take a page from Apple's playbook and wait until closer to launch to start announcing these things.

They had a different rulebook. Apple launched the iPhone without apps (except for a few self-generated ones), and nobody missed them because there were no competitors. By the time they launched the iPad, it was compatible with the 250,000 iPhone apps, so there was an already existing and well stocked library. Microsoft had no such treasure trove, and to get developers working they had to announce early. No way you're going to keep it a secret if you have 5,000 developers working on apps, so you might as well make the announcement, get some press, then get your developers working so you can launch with an "app store" with some merchandise on the shelves. You can bet that when they launch they will tout some of the highest function apps, from maps to games and far beyond as part of the "package" that makes the Surface such a swell tablet that everyone simply must own one by Christmas.

Of course I expect the Surface's success, if it is to be had, to be in the enterprise, where they have legions of IT managers who are comfortable with Windows products. Or perhaps they're tired of all the malware and other problems but are locked in, and unless Surface is uber-compelling, will allow the iPad and others into the gated walls. (Well, no I don't think Android is a good fit, here, given the random, open, and insecure nature of its app vetting process.)

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155938 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/15/2012 9:24 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
I've seen no research that says people would prefer their phones and PC's to work the same,

Just going by my experience in the mid 80s, when the Apple II was the market share leader with home users, and the Radio Shack TRS-80 was second. Within a year of the IBM PC coming out, the first thing people said when they came into my Radio Shack was "is it IBM compatible?".

The installed base for Apple and Radio Shack didn't matter anymore.

The large existing libraries of Apple and TRS-DOS apps didn't matter anymore.

The home users wanted compatibility. They didn't like the fractured market with Apple II, TRS-80, Adam, TI 99/4, Atari, Sinclair...

I just have a hunch that bridging the gap so that you have the same look and feel across platforms from a phone to a desktop will be attractive to a lot of people.

Steve

Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0gre Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155939 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/16/2012 12:44 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
There is a lot of evidence that familiarity between devices is useful, particularly useful in selling devices. The overnight success of the iPad is due in a large part to people's familiarity with the interface.

Pricing... is going to be a huge thing here. If Windows tablets are significantly more expensive than the iPad, it's going to be nearly difficult to convince people to buy them unless they have a very compelling reason to go with Windows.

If Apple is cranking out iPad minis for $300-400, it's going to be a very compelling low end purchase and very difficult for Microsoft to compete with, particularly if the rumor that the 'RT' version costs OEMs $50.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155940 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/16/2012 1:24 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
If Windows tablets are significantly more expensive than the iPad,

We'll find out in a couple weeks

AT&T Debuts Windows 8 Tablets Available for Holiday Shopping Season

New Tablets from ASUS and Samsung Deliver Windows 8


http://www.att.com/gen/press-room?pid=23420&cdvn=news&am...

And phones

AT&T to sell Nokia's first Windows 8 phones

NEW YORK (AP) — Lending support to two companies struggling to make a comeback in smartphones, AT&T Inc. said Thursday it will be selling Nokia smartphones that run Windows Phone 8, Microsoft's upcoming software release.


http://news.yahoo.com/t-sell-nokias-first-windows-8-phones-1...

And T is promoting the common look and feel across platforms.

Coming Soon – Windows® Devices from AT&T

The new Windows Phone 8 devices give you a better way to integrate your digital life across your phone, tablet, and PC. Bring together the stuff you care about most into one personalized experience.


http://www.att.com/shop/wireless/devices/windowsphone.html#f...

Steve

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155941 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/16/2012 11:48 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Seems like people would prever their PC and their phone work the same, rather than have to learn two different ways of doing things, and since there are more phones, it's on the PC to emulate it.

And how are you figuring that? Just because there are more phones than computers? They're two completely different form factors with completely different interfaces (which is a different situation than the IBM PC to Apple II comparison you make later in this thread). A desktop interface doesn't make sense on a mobile device, and a touch-screen interface doesn't make much sense on a laptop or desktop.

If this were true, wouldn't it mean that motorcycles should have steering wheels? I mean, there are more cars than motorcycles, and seems like people would prefer they work the same.

dsbrady

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155943 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/16/2012 12:23 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
which is a different situation than the IBM PC to Apple II comparison you make later in this thread

That situation was so different as to not be comparable at all.

Apple ][ owners were early adopters, and were almost entirely "people", as opposed to businesses.

The genre got traction when folks realized there was actual workplace productivity to be had, particularly by way of word processors and VisiCalc, among a few others. But businesses were still reluctant to jump into the fray until the well trusted IBM got in the game. Once they did, businesses began adopting desktop computers in huge numbers, and when "later adopters" went looking for a home computer, they naturally wanted something on which the software (which they could steal from work) would function at home.

And yes, there was probably some element of "functionality" that was good when people were learning "command line interface" and C: prompts and the like.

Most OS's these days are so easy you can put them in front of a 2 year old and they will figure it out in a minute. You don't need to have the sink, the stove, the refrigerator and the toaster oven all have the same controls, so long as they are intuitive enough for people to grasp without a steep learning curve. (That was the genius of TiVo and the downfall of VCR's, which insisted on forcing people to learn ever more arcane commands and functions just to record a show.)

If this were true, wouldn't it mean that motorcycles should have steering wheels? I mean, there are more cars than motorcycles, and seems like people would prefer they work the same.

Raging successes: a motorcycle with a steering wheel:
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/lit-motors-unveils-fully-e...

And a car with handlebars:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9127155/Hondas-stee...

If you actually see one in the wild, ring a bell.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155946 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/18/2012 8:40 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
"Adding even more to the migration challenge is the touch interface versus the mouse. Old habits die hard, but more importantly, new habits are much harder to make. "

Yes, and new habits that aren't practical or necessary for desktop or even a lot of laptop users are much much harder to push on users with work flow needs beyond what a cell phone user would find acceptable.

Totally agree with you.
B

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155947 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/18/2012 9:07 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"I just have a hunch that bridging the gap so that you have the same look and feel across platforms from a phone to a desktop will be attractive to a lot of people."

IMO calling it a "gap" is only a way to justify MS mistakenly making their flagship product (desktop OSes) work & look like the UI of pocket portable devices (an area where MS has relatively too poor a position from which to be bridging gaps).

Desktop users need touchscreens like a hole in the head (think of why they use a desktop rather than their phone or tablet).
B

Print the post Back To Top
Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155949 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/18/2012 2:36 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Desktop users need touchscreens like a hole in the head (think of why they use a desktop rather than their phone or tablet).

fwiw, analyst commenting on the Nokia report this morning, and making the same observation as I about Windows 8 common "experience" across platforms around the 3:30 minute mark.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/samsung-s-use-of-microsoft-wi...

Recall what the world was like before the PC. If you wanted to write a note, you held a legal pad in your lap or on your desktop, while you applied a pencil to the page. If you wanted to look at photos, you held an album in your lap or table top and flipped the pages with your hand. I can see a "home computer" consisting of a CPU, and a light, wireless touchscreen that you can carry around the house, that can access the mass storage and peripherals attached to the CPU. One piece that handles input and output.

Here's a scenario: streaming TV content over broadband at home: the wireless touchscreen becomes the remote control for the TV.

Same thing for running audio to your stereo system. You can run everything without sitting at the computer.

And you don't need to learn another system to do it, because it's just like watching a video or playing an MP3 on your phone.

Steve

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155950 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/18/2012 3:42 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Recall what the world was like before the PC. If you wanted to write a note, you held a legal pad in your lap or on your desktop, while you applied a pencil to the page. If you wanted to look at photos, you held an album in your lap or table top and flipped the pages with your hand. I can see a "home computer" consisting of a CPU, and a light, wireless touchscreen that you can carry around the house, that can access the mass storage and peripherals attached to the CPU. One piece that handles input and output.

Which changes nothing about the argument that the UI on a desktop/laptop doesn't need to mimic a mobile UI, because they're completely different form factors.

You're basically arguing that the form factor of the future is more mobile (i.e., tablet), which may be true. But that doesn't mean current PC form factors should have the same UI ramrodded into them.

dsbrady

Print the post Back To Top
Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155951 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/18/2012 6:31 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
You're basically arguing that the form factor of the future is more mobile (i.e., tablet), which may be true.

Correct. With some 200M PCs in the US, and some 300M cell phones, that appears to be a well established trend.

But that doesn't mean current PC form factors should have the same UI ramrodded into them.

Consider how the cell phone has evolved, from a device to make voice calls, with a numeric keypad for dialing, to a multimedia device with a touch screen.

Why should computers be forever chained to a keyboard, mouse and monitor layout that has not changed since the late 80s? The first attempt at multimedia PCs was a bust, because you had to have the computer near the stereo and TV. Now TVs and stereos have Ethernet connections built in. In home wireless networks are common. Ditto broadband internet service delivering video and audio. I think being able to operate the CPU from anywhere in the house opens up a lot of possibilities, performing many of the same tasks as a cell phone, but with the datastream from a broadband internet connection, rather than a cell tower.

Well, a difference of opinion is what makes a market.

Steve

Print the post Back To Top
Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155952 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/19/2012 1:50 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Why should computers be forever chained to a keyboard, mouse and monitor layout that has not changed since the late 80s?

Ok, let me try this one more time. I'm not arguing that computers won't become more mobile in the future. I'm arguing that having the non-mobile version of Windows 8 (the one supposedly to be used on the EXISTING 200 million PCs in the US) have the same interface is a mistake. I'm saying nothing about whether it makes sense for some future computer.

dsbrady

Print the post Back To Top
Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155953 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/19/2012 2:15 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
...having the non-mobile version of Windows 8...have the same interface is a mistake.

Watch the video. Win 8 does not force abandonment of the keyboard and mouse. It just adds the touchscreen function. Since desktops appear to have hit market saturation as presently configured, I think MS is moving in the right direction by adding functionality, as I have described in this thread, and providing a common UI with form factors that are seeing higher growth.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/release-preview...

Steve...thinks it looks pretty neat

Print the post Back To Top
Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155954 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/19/2012 2:24 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Watch the video. Win 8 does not force abandonment of the keyboard and mouse.

The video where about 3 seconds involves using a mouse (and doesn't really show much but a single interaction)? Yeah, that clearly shows how awesome it will be for people on laptops/desktops.

Since desktops appear to have hit market saturation as presently configured, I think MS is moving in the right direction

They are right to be trying to expand into mobile. But by trying to force their non-mobile OS to have the same UI as the mobile users is a mistake. Apple is doing some convergence between their desktop OS and their mobile OS where it can make sense, but they're not trying to pretend that the way people interact with the two systems should be the same.

dsbrady

Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0gre Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155955 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/19/2012 8:49 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
Watch the video. Win 8 does not force abandonment of the keyboard and mouse. It just adds the touchscreen function.

"Force" a bad word. "Make it suck so much that no-one is interested in using it that way". Is far more accurate. Video or no video, this is what the majority of people who have tried Windows 8 have said. Reviewers, consumers, etc, etc....

Microsoft is pushing the issue because they don't want their OEMs to release old school desktop/ laptop configurations.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155957 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/20/2012 11:17 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
"Force" a bad word. "Make it suck so much that no-one is interested in using it that way". Is far more accurate. Video or no video, this is what the majority of people who have tried Windows 8 have said. Reviewers, consumers, etc, etc....

Early look at Windows 8 baffles consumers

The release of Microsoft's Windows 8 operating system is a week away, and consumers are in for a shock. Windows, used in one form or another for a generation, is getting a completely different look that will force users to learn new ways to get things done.

Microsoft is making a radical break with the past to stay relevant in a world where smartphones and tablets have eroded the three-decade dominance of the personal computer. Windows 8 is supposed to tie together Microsoft's PC, tablet and phone software with one look. But judging by the reactions of some people who have tried the PC version, it's a move that risks confusing and alienating customers.

Tony Roos, an American missionary in Paris, installed a free preview version of Windows 8 on his aging laptop to see if Microsoft's new operating system would make the PC faster and more responsive. It didn't, he said, and he quickly learned that working with the new software requires tossing out a lot of what he knows about Windows.

"It was very difficult to get used to," he said. "I have an 8-year-old and a 10-year-old, and they never got used to it. They were like, 'We're just going to use Mom's computer.'"

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/personal/2012/10/20/early...

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155958 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/20/2012 12:56 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
...touchscreen or mouse, Windows 8 undeniably shines. The final desktop look makes the transition between the Modern UI and desktop less obvious. You can still stay substantially in the desktop if you want to and enjoy a faster, more secure version of Windows with a better browser that has longer battery life.

But as more useful Modern UI apps come along, you'll find you split your time between the two experiences more, and gestures could be critical to making that a natural combination.

Keep an open mind, spend some time getting used to the charm bar and the Start screen. Once you do, we defy you not to be impressed by Windows 8.


http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/pc-mac/software/operatin...

Steve...remembers the howls when Win 95 came out "wadda mean, press "start" to turn it off? that's stupid!"

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155961 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/20/2012 5:09 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
But as more useful Modern UI apps come along, you'll find you split your time between the two experiences more, and gestures could be critical to making that a natural combination.

And yet Apple has sold 300,000,000 iPhones and 80,000,000 iPads that didn't have a common interface with their, or any other desktop interface, and I am still waiting to hear someone say "Oh, but it should work just like my computer at home."

Windows 8 may be a wonderful thing, but it appears to me that Microsoft is taking a huge gamble to solve a problem which nobody has.
 


Print the post Back To Top
Author: TheCrusader Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155962 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/20/2012 8:15 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Well here we are a week away from the most siginifican upgrade of Windows since Win 95 which introduced the UI and Win XP which did away with DOS.

I see a few problems with Win 8, the prinicpal one being the Win RT version, which whilst having a standard windows desktop does not actually run Windows applictions, this is a recipe for confusion.

Secondly there are as yet insufficent apps with the new Metro UI, so it lacks an ecosystem

Finally it is half pregnant, I dont think MS have gone far enough in migrating apps and features that come standard with Windows to the new metro UI.

Thats the think I noticed about the Metro UI the more you use it, the more you like it and the less you want to go back to the old OS look. Thats was my expereinece anyway, once you get over the hurdle of the new UI, and that hurdle is not really very high.

Tiles are no different from icons one the desktop, you touch them or click then and the app runs, but tiles also convey infomation making them far more useful.

Give this OS 3 years when more apps are written, new device designs and another version and everything else is going to look old.

Where MS are showing foresight in having the one look and feel across its device interfaces is that the time when a consumer buys a home PC may not exist five or so years from now as a mobile phone plugged into a dock and screen etc will provide more computing power or at lesat similar to that of desktop PC's today.

So in future the consumer buys a phone that is also a fully functional PC and a tablet if you want a larger screen, the tablet is also a fully functional PC and even a cell phone.

So in time I would forecast a material decline in desktop PC sales with the consequent impacts on the current PC eco system being mobo and other accessorie makers, as well as the andriod OS.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0gre Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155964 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/21/2012 1:21 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
>>> And yet Apple has sold 300,000,000 iPhones and 80,000,000 iPads that didn't have a common interface with their, or any other desktop interface, and I am still waiting to hear someone say "Oh, but it should work just like my computer at home." <<<

For me it's the other way around. My wife and I both occasionally reach up to the laptop display to pinch/ zoom images or even text. The more I think about it, the more the idea of a touch screen on my MacBook appeals. I can even see it being handy on occasion for the desktop... though I'm not entirely sold on that, arm fatigue would get to be an issue after prolonged use.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155965 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/21/2012 5:18 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"Steve...remembers the howls when Win 95 came out "wadda mean, press "start" to turn it off? that's stupid!""

It is stupid.
B
(Who has been involved with embedded windows usability tests with clients that are not tech bloggers trying to fill review space nor investors pumping mediocrity)

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155966 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/21/2012 5:59 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
"most siginifican upgrade of Windows since Win 95 which introduced the UI"

W98 didn't introduce "the UI" - it tweaked an existing one. As to whether this is as significant - we'll have to wait & see (history tells us to wait for Win 9 as that will be the significant & ready for market relese).

"Thats the think I noticed about the Metro UI the more you use it, the more you like it and the less you want to go back to the old OS look. Thats was my expereinece anyway, once you get over the hurdle of the new UI, and that hurdle is not really very high"

But you've not ever been very critical of MS's efforts on anything. The less evangelistic reviewers haven't been as generous with their reviews. I personally have found it's ok for fun stuff but does little for my productivity which is the one area I would ask & hope for improvement in (I already have lots of fun with the frivoli of today's pocket to desktop abilities).

"Give this OS 3 years when more apps are written, new device designs and another version and everything else is going to look old"

Didn't you say things like tat about Vista? And wasn't that missing the point of concerns back then too? As for "Give (it) 3 years"? 3 Years is forever in general and especially mobile computing trends. Of course older stuff looks older - today Win XP looks older too but it is perfectly functional wrt it's UI. I don't have 3 years and money for new peripherals/drivers to waste.

"Where MS are showing foresight in having the one look and feel across its device interfaces"

Foresight to ply the same UI to differently used devices? Every hole gets the same peg....I'm not seeing foresight as much as gambling without asking users what they want or need. Apple does this too but they seem luckier & smarter about it (file under just saying - the results are hard to ignore and MS has more marketshare at risk).

"is that the time when a consumer buys a home PC may not exist five or so years from now as a mobile phone plugged into a dock and screen etc will provide more computing power or at lesat similar to that of desktop PC's today"

So you're predicting that in the future there will be more powerful smaller computing devices? Moore's Law and effect observations the last several decades staked that prediction already. I don't buy the one box fits all argument but then I'm a content & product creator AND do find my phone incredibly adequate for what it already does well. Some of us need work-stations to earn a living - unlike users of only email, browsing, and light weight office apps are all well served already. I wonder how many desktop users will find screen fingerprints tolerable (yes, it's different in that regard than a phone one holds against their face already).

"So in time I would forecast a material decline in desktop PC sales with the consequent impacts on the current PC eco system being mobo and other accessorie makers,"

You're late on that prediction too - arguably that has already been happening.

"as well as the andriod OS."

Why? If pocket devices are increasingly so important it would seem that it is MS that needs to catch up or have a presence, not Google/Android that shares space with Apple.
I'm not amazed that you turn MS's glaring deficiencies to date finally being addressed (perhaps waaay too late) as if a threat to Android. It's all smack talk because it's MS who needs to earn/keep market-share - certainly before Google even needs to sweat declining sales wrt MS Win8.
B

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0gre Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155967 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/21/2012 8:15 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
>>> As for "Give (it) 3 years"? 3 Years is forever in general and especially mobile computing trends.<<<

Totally agree, Windows market share has plateaued. The days where they can go years without a serious threat to their desktop are over. More Macs are sold than ever, iPads are displacing PCs, people are using Kindles, Android, iPhones, etc, etc... in places where they used PCs before.

Three years is 80 million iPads ago... in another 3 there will be 300-500 million iPads and 50-100 million Android based tablets. Three years is forever.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155968 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/21/2012 8:45 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
As for "Give (it) 3 years"? 3 Years is forever in general and especially mobile computing trends

How long did it take Android to reach it's dominate position?

Initially developed by Android Inc, whom Google financially backed and later purchased in 2005,[9] Android was unveiled in 2007 along with the founding of the Open Handset Alliance...The first Android-powered phone was sold in October 2008,[15] and by the end of 2010 Android had become the world's leading smartphone platform,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)

Steve

Print the post Back To Top
Author: TheCrusader Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155969 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/21/2012 9:04 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Philipo with respect your counter arguments or points or whatever they are just make no sense really what are you on about.

I say

most siginifican upgrade of Windows since Win 95 which introduced the UI"

U say

W98 didn't introduce "the UI" -

Oops

I say

Give this OS 3 years when more apps are written, new device designs and another version and everything else is going to look old"

U say

Didn't you say things like tat about Vista?

Well Vista did turn into Win 7 but regardless Vista has nothing to do with this discussion so why even mention it.

U say

Foresight to ply the same UI to differently used devices? Every hole gets the same peg.

No the use scenarios are different, touch where needed and mouse where needed Metro works well with both.

I say

in time I would forecast a material decline in desktop PC sales with the consequent impacts on the current PC eco system being mobo and other accessorie makers,"

U say

Some of us need work-stations to earn a living - unlike users of only email, browsing, and light weight office apps are all well served already. I wonder how many desktop users will find screen fingerprints tolerable

Why is a desktop user touching the screen when they can use the mouse?

Did I say that there will not be a need for workstations? Where did I say that.... No I am forecasting a material decline in desktop PC's as they will be replaced by phones and tablets. This change will result in a lesser number of mobo and case makers etc.

You are not really saying anything useful at all.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0gre Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155970 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/21/2012 9:33 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
How long did it take Android to reach it's dominate position?

Microsoft launched their Android killer 2 years after Android was released, in the Fall of 2010. It was called Windows Phone. Two years after Android's launch the (then) biggest tech company in the world launched their competing product and wasn't able to make a dent in the market. That was a touch more than 3 years after the iPhone's release.

They even had a funeral for it.

The iPad was launched a little over 2.5 years ago so their response time is getting better at least. The problem is this time around it is Microsoft selling the product for twice the price of the competing Apple/ Android products which is going to make for a rough market.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: chilero One star, 50 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155972 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/22/2012 7:10 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
The pushback appears to be from people who want to stick with the desktop that they are familiar with. Sometimes it seems that they fail to realize that it is still there and if they wish they can stay on the desktop all they want. (except for Winodows RT)

The keystrokes and hot spots for performing tasks on the new start screen are simple to learn. I don't currently want a 24" touchscreen either. There are a number of new mice, keyboards and touchpads that are being released that will make it all work very well without a touch screen. Take a look at Microsoft's $30 Touch Mouse which has been upgraded to support Windows 8. You can perform the touch gestures right on the mouse. Or the Logitech Touchpad at around $80 will also give you the gesture based support. I'm sure there are many more coming out as well. Watch some videos for those devices and see how easy it is.

The digital upgrade is also going to be $40 for Windows 8 Pro until around January. How can you go wrong with that price? Use the savings to pick up a mouse, keyboard or touchpad and soon you'll be enjoying the new Windows start screen too.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0gre Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155973 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/22/2012 10:53 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
The pushback appears to be from people who want to stick with the desktop that they are familiar with.

The keystrokes and hot spots for performing tasks on the new start screen are simple to learn.


If you are sticking with the desktop you are familiar with... you don't have to learn anything. With the release of Windows 8, it will be easier to adapt to OSX then it is to move to the next version of Windows.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: chilero One star, 50 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155980 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/23/2012 3:09 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
@Ogre

You are confusing the tiled start screen and desktop. The new start screen requires learning, which is simple. The desktop operates the same as before. Every new generation of OS requires users to learn something new whether it is a Mac or PC. Going to OSX would be completly new and would require a complete investment in new hardware and software. Windows 8 is fully compatible with Windows 7 applications and can be used with current hardware.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0gre Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155981 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/23/2012 3:21 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
My understanding is you have to access the desktop via the new start screen. Have they changed that?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: codyklein Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 155982 of 157041
Subject: Re: Gangs of New York, Microsoft and Apple Date: 10/23/2012 3:46 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
This video may help with some questions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi8NpwiEuzc&feature=playe...

Print the post Back To Top
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (37) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Advertisement