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Author: jeffirving One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 21975  
Subject: Geezer Quandry Date: 10/30/2003 11:09 AM
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Help and advice sought, please.

About a year-and-a-half ago, I sold all of my 1966-vintage, fully manual Canon gear. I replaced it all with a Nikon N80 body and two AF Nikkor lenses.

Because of other priorities, I never put the first frame of film through the new stuff. Further, I find the manual to be near-indecipherable. Even the Magic Lantern Guide is tough going. So on the shelf it has all sat.

My two 30ish sons say that now I should forget the N80 learning curve and trade/sell it for a Nikon digital body compatible with the lenses. That way, they say, I'll have only one (digital) learning curve (including all the computer-related stuff) and that's what the future holds anyway. Both are good shooters and know their way around Adobe, etc.

What say you folks? TIA.
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Author: dbsf Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3064 of 21975
Subject: Re: Geezer Quandry Date: 10/31/2003 3:05 PM
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One thing for sure, the learning curve for good photography is much faster with digital than with film; if only for the immediacy of the feedback. Shoot-look-erase or print. IT can be that simple
On the other hand, image management, learning new interfaces (camera/computer/software) can be a life time process, especially with all the changes in each.
So if you've got the inclination to not minding feeling lost and a bit overwhelmed then I'd say go for it. Expecially if it will mean more time with your sons.
My mother, who's in her seventies, loves her Canon A-40 and iMac we gave her for christmas last year. It was her first computer and digital camera and she's always emailing images of her flowers and cats to us. IF she can do it you certainly can.

david/sf

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Author: wolferd1 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3065 of 21975
Subject: Re: Geezer Quandry Date: 11/2/2003 8:14 PM
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I guess it depends on how you look at this.

You have a very good camera you have had for 18 months, but never used. Now you are considering getting another without ever having used the one you've already got. My head just doesn't work like that, the move to digital notwithstanding.

If you have been using a manual Cannon for a long time, you should already have some insight into all the basics you need to take good pictures. As a matter of fact, you probably have better skills than some who never had to learn how to set things manually. Anyway, put film in your N80 and shoot a roll in manual mode. Once you see that is isn't too difficult, mess around with aperature priority, etc. You'll like it. If you want digital compies, get them when the film is processed.

The instant feed back on digital cameras is great, but you're not a rookie.

Robert
- shooting with an F100,
- concerned that in 35 years a generation of pictures and memories will be lost because digital files will prove to be more high maintenance than we thought. (recently ran across some pictures of my mom in a box, taken about 65 years ago.)

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Author: ToesOnTheNose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3068 of 21975
Subject: Re: Geezer Quandry Date: 11/3/2003 1:54 PM
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concerned that in 35 years a generation of pictures and memories will be lost because digital files will prove to be more high maintenance than we thought. (recently ran across some pictures of my mom in a box, taken about 65 years ago.)
++++

I'm so gald to hear this. I have been going back and forth with this in my own head. I was recently speaking to an entrpreneur outside her store and she was explaining about "keeping things really simple". She used a great couple of examples. She admitted that she "over thinks" similar to the way I do. I was talking about photography and should I go all digital (I have a consumer digital camera, But I was thinking of investing in a Pro-level digital 35mm, and a pro-level medium format back). She asked, "what do you want to do?" I told her that I want to take pictures of people. She asked what I am good at. I said film, I love the warmth, and I love the art of it. She said, "then just do that? Why change now?"

She also suggested getting a digital camera and working with it personally and see how it works and if it is acceptable at a professional level. Then, at some point, if the two converge, that's when you switch, otherwise, just do what you do.

The other week, my computer crashed. I lost all my files - everything. I had backed up all my scanned photos, onto a CD, about a few weeks before. When I got my computer back up, the CD wouldn't read the .jpg files. I don't know what's wrong, but I think I lost all my pic's of my son as a baby.

Digital has it's place, and it is a good medium for certain things. But, it does not replace film, it is an adjunct or compliment to it, IMO.

Toes

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Author: ToesOnTheNose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3069 of 21975
Subject: Re: Geezer Quandry Date: 11/3/2003 2:16 PM
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My two 30ish sons say that now I should forget the N80 learning curve and trade/sell it for a Nikon digital body compatible with the lenses. That way, they say, I'll have only one (digital) learning curve (including all the computer-related stuff) and that's what the future holds anyway. Both are good shooters and know their way around Adobe, etc.
++++

Ah! The old digital vs. film argument, eh?

Without stirring the pot, very few pro's are 100% all digital. Most are mostly all film, and experiment with digital when it is non-critical to their reputation.

There are those that claim to be professional using all digital, or mostly digital, but they miss out on the finer points of the art. There are also some valid very experienced pro's who are 100% digital who get very, very good results.

The problem I am finding is everyone with a digital camera thinks they can shoot like Ansel Adams. They go out and buy a Nikon or Canon professional SLR digital camera and start shooting.

But, they have to shoot alot. For instance, I know a lady who makes the claim that she can shoot just as well as any pro. Through conversation, I found out that she probably shoots 1,000 images to get a few really nice ones. OKAY! Last time I checked, a professional (someone getting paid) must get it right after a few shots. You cannot tell your client, let me shoot 1,000 pictures, and out of that I'll send you one or two "good ones". Every shot must be good. Many of those must be great.

Imagine shooting a wedding, getting paid, after shooting 800 shots, and you show the client 3 good ones. You wouldn't be working in the industry very long.

Don't get me wrong. There are a great many things going for digital. But, I think people are confusing the medium as a replacement for film. I am forming the opinion that it will nto replace film, it will simply be an additional medium with which to work.

Also,I believe that any professional photographer also has to be familiar with the medium, and ready to use it upon a clients request. Although, sometimes, the client doesn't know what they are asking, or why.

The digital vs. Film is a very hot debate amoung photographers. Consumers are driving the digital thing, not photographers, although some would disagree.

Another thing about digital, and one reason why many pros are not using it is that in medium format cameras, the digital backs for those are prohibitvely high priced. And, you need a laptop to immediately download to. The technology just isn't there. And since most pros use the medium and large format cameras, digital just doesn't do it.

Toes

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Author: dcarper Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3070 of 21975
Subject: Re: Geezer Quandry Date: 11/3/2003 2:48 PM
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Last time I checked, a professional (someone getting paid) must get it right after a few shots. You cannot tell your client, let me shoot 1,000 pictures, and out of that I'll send you one or two "good ones". Every shot must be good. Many of those must be great.


This depends on what is being shot.

A wedding photographer must get most shots on one or two tries. Most critical shots are dones at least twice just to make sure; but this is a controlled environment, the biggest worry is closed eyes.

A corporate photographer shooting "grip-and-grin" shots has to get them all right on one try. Fortunatly, this is pretty easy, assuming no equipment problems. Also, the requirements for "right" are pretty loose.

OTOH, a photojournalist may very well use no more than 1% of the shots taken on an assignment. A fine art photographer may not do much better. The wildlife photographer almost certainly gets an even lower number of great shots.

In most cases, I don't think that you should judge a photographer by the shots that didn't work; judge them by the shots that do make the cut.

BTW, most photojournalists are now using digital cameras. It's a shame to some extent, because the famous picture of the firemen raising the flag after 9/11 was shot digital; it doesn't have the resolution to stand up to a full page newspaper without serious degradation. I wouldn't be surprised if corporate event photographers are going digital as well, since there is often a need for very fast turnaround.

David

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Author: wolferd1 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3071 of 21975
Subject: Re: Geezer Quandry Date: 11/3/2003 3:22 PM
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Toes,

How close are you to making your move?

Robert


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Author: ToesOnTheNose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3072 of 21975
Subject: Re: Geezer Quandry Date: 11/3/2003 3:39 PM
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OTOH, a photojournalist may very well use no more than 1% of the shots taken on an assignment. A fine art photographer may not do much better. The wildlife photographer almost certainly gets an even lower number of great shots.
++++

Really? 1%. Wow! I don't feel so bad.

Out of a 36 roll, I usually get 1 WOW (good enough to showcase), 3 or 4 honerable mentions (good enough for Aunt Sally to put on her wall), and the rest could be thrown in the trash.

Of course, I keep getting better.

Toes

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Author: ToesOnTheNose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3073 of 21975
Subject: Re: Geezer Quandry Date: 11/3/2003 3:45 PM
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How close are you to making your move?
++++

Thanks for asking.

At first, the answer to your question seemed easy, but then I realized that I am already making my move.

However, I think what you are probably asking is when am I going to quit my day-job. That will occur around June or July 2004.

So, right now I am developing my website (low priority), purchasing equipment and getting familiar with it (high priority), taking pictures of everyone and everything, getting clients (funny how everyone wants you to photograph them when it's free), and putting the business plan together.

I think by the time I hit the ground with no income stream from my day-job, I'll be ready in more ways than one.

My highest priority, to me, is getting a portfolio together. I have a plan for that, which may or may not work. If not, then I'll figure something out.

I am doing this, though. My family thinks I'm crazy. My friends, who I have told think I'm crazy. The only person who thinks I'm finally doing something worthwhile is my wife. And, she's the only person where an opinion would matter to me.

Toes

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Author: dcarper Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3074 of 21975
Subject: Re: Geezer Quandry Date: 11/3/2003 4:02 PM
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Really? 1%. Wow! I don't feel so bad.

I'm not a photojournalist myself, but I have been in the situation of being on the other side of the camera on more than one occasion. In each case, multiple rolls were shot. Never were more than 3 photos published.

Of course, keep in mind that a photojournalist is often shooting to illustrate a story, without knowing what the story is. They will also, if time allows, shoot multiple compositions, so that the editor will be able to choose a shot that works with that day's layout, something which it totally beyond their control.

Out of a 36 roll, I usually get 1 WOW (good enough to showcase), 3 or 4 honerable mentions (good enough for Aunt Sally to put on her wall), and the rest could be thrown in the trash.

That's actually not too bad.

Of course, I keep getting better.


Well, one problem that you'll run into is that as you get better, you'll also get pickier, so shots that last year may have been in the "wow" category are now bumped down to the "HM" category. ;-)

But don't fret too much about it. I had one time at the Grand Canyon where I simply snapped a few shots for orientation purposes before I started really shooting the good ones. It was one of the orientation shots that I ended up selling; the "good" ones are still in the files.

David

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Author: dcarper Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3075 of 21975
Subject: Re: Geezer Quandry Date: 11/3/2003 4:05 PM
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I am doing this, though. My family thinks I'm crazy. My friends, who I have told think I'm crazy. The only person who thinks I'm finally doing something worthwhile is my wife.

Just because you're doing something worthwhile doesn't mean you aren't crazy. ;-)

Sometimes being a little crazy is the best way to stay sane.

David

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Author: coldfool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3076 of 21975
Subject: Re: Geezer Quandry Date: 11/3/2003 4:16 PM
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Just because you're doing something worthwhile doesn't mean you aren't crazy. ;-)

Sometimes being a little crazy is the best way to stay sane.


I remember a conversation with my daughter when she was ohhhh, around 12 years old. She made the statement,
"Dad, sometimes you act so crazy!"

"Sometimes honey, that's the only way I can maintain my sanity."

She looked at me for quite a few seconds, thought about it, and replied,
"That just doesn't make sense, Dad"...to which I replied...

"Give it a few years, sweetheart...it will."

~cold





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Author: PucksFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3077 of 21975
Subject: Re: Geezer Quandry Date: 11/3/2003 9:42 PM
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Because of other priorities, I never put the first frame of film through the new stuff. Further, I find the manual to be near-indecipherable. Even the Magic Lantern Guide is tough going. So on the shelf it has all sat.

Why not take the camera off the shelf and figure out how to put it into manual mode and see how the "new" equipment feels and performs comparing it to what you are use to. Over time as you get comfortable with the camera and lenses, you can begin experimenting with auto-focusing, auto-exposure, and fully automatic modes.

Digital cameras are nice, but so are film cameras.

PF

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