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Author: dozer183e Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 8948  
Subject: Golf Club Research Date: 5/9/2002 11:41 AM
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I going to be in the market for a new set of irons. I am possibly looking to buy in the next couple of months. Right now I can spend around $400. I have been playing about 16 months,and still consider myself a beginner.

I don't even know where to start to research clubs, and figure out what would be best for me. Sure, I could go to the local sports store or golf shop, and let the salesman talk me into whatever happens to be in my price range. But thats not how I buy things that cost more than $200. I usually do my homework, find out what features are best for me, pick a specific item, then shop it through various outlets (Ebay included).

There are so many brands and so many models of clubs out there. I don't want to buy something just because it is in my price range. Is there a good web site that tells you about different clubs? I've already looked at www.golfreview.com, and they are quite extensive. The problem is, all the reviews are written by consumers, and they just talk about why they do or don't like the item. I was hoping to find something less biased, where someone in the industry writes 1 page articles on the different clubs out there. For example, when I was researching digital camcorders, I found www.camcorderinfo.com to have a wealth of information, and there is an unbiased review of virtually every camcorder on the market. Plus there is other info as well. Maybe I should type in www.golfclubinfo.com.

Any info you guys have would help, and feel free to tell me what kinds of thing I should be looking for.

Thanks
Dozer
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Author: MotleyDell Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1518 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/9/2002 12:30 PM
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try www.golfclubreview.com

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Author: robot One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1519 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/9/2002 2:26 PM
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Go to GolfSmith and Edwin Watts. Get fitted by both stores. Exercise sales resistance. Look at three price level clubs. Tell them that your wife or father will make the final selection as to price as it is ksupposed to be a gift.

They should start the process with checking your swing speed by having you swing with either the driver or a 6 iron. They both have devices that are placed on the mat near the tee that gives you that measurment. You set up a ball and swing through it. You do this a dozen times. Your swing speed will determine the flex of your clubs. Tiger hits at about 130-150 mph. A stiff shaft is recommended for speeds above 95. (If you go this route do not try to overswing as that will hurt you if you check out on the bubble with a speed of say 92 or 93 mph.) If you are an older player think about graphite shafts.

Both stores should lead you through the same process and you should come out with very similar recommendations as to flex, length, swing weight, etc, issues that have been discussed on the board and should be reviewed before going much further.

As to the next steps...both stores will probably suggest some of the pricer clubs for you to select, ping, taylor, titlist, callaway, etc., however, then you ask for other manufactiures who produce clubs with the specifications they have recommended that are priced to your liking and I am positive they have some at your level.

Next step is to take two or three of the clubs that meet you price range and specs. and head for the nearest driving range and field test them. Hit twenty or thirty balls with each of the three clubs they allow you to demo. Ask for three more to demo it the first three don't work out. Take the same club, say a 6 iron and note the distance, trajectory and anything else you can think off one each of the brands you are testing. Take that info back to the shop and tell the salesfolks what happened on each club. They should then alter their recommendation by suggesting a longer or shorter club, one with a bigger or smaller grip surface or grip material. Also remember that you might not need to buy a full set of clubs as for a lot of us less skilled players we do not need the 2 or 3 iron in our bags. Eliminating one or two clubs from a full set could save you upwards of $100.

Get them to write down all the tech. info on the club, flex point, lie angle, etc. THEN find a source that will sell you the clubs you need having the specs. both stores gave you. If there are differences in what you are being told that are radical, you might have to go to a third location and run the fitting process again.

You might also go over the specifications with the carded PGA pro where you take lessons. THEY LIKE THAT. THAT IS PART OF THEIR FUNCTION and if you are going to take lessons your pro should be involved in the decission process.

As another source of info go to the web site of PING and some of the other big names and learn about their on-line fitting process.

Take your time regardless of which way you go. It is your hard earned money you will be spending AND fwiw, you will "feel" better swinging "your" club if you "know" you got the right one.

...robot


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Author: dozer183e Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1520 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/9/2002 6:15 PM
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Thanks for the great response, robot.

Sounds a bit more complicated than I had imagined. I was thinking I could find what seems to be the right set of clubs, and just "get" them. So if I ordered a set of clubs from somewhere, and I gave them my specs, they will custom fit them? And is there an additional charge for that, or is it assumed in the price of the clubs? Just out of cutiosity, if someone gave me a nice set of clubs, could I have those clubs custom fit? Or do you have to start with new clubs?

I do have a Golfsmith real close to me, so perhaps I'll go check things out.

I did a little more research today, and I really like what I am reading about the Callaway X-14's. I am a high handicapper, and am really desiring more concistency. It seems these clubs are built for my type. They are over my price range, but with a little more saving, and some real bargain hunting, I may be able to afford them. Taylor Made Fire Sole looks good too, but it seems they are discontinuing them. Anyone know why?

Thanks for the info.

Dozer

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1521 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/9/2002 7:17 PM
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dozer183e: "I going to be in the market for a new set of irons. I am possibly looking to buy in the next couple of months. Right now I can spend around $400. I have been playing about 16 months,and still consider myself a beginner.

I don't even know where to start to research clubs, and figure out what would be best for me. Sure, I could go to the local sports store or golf shop, and let the salesman talk me into whatever happens to be in my price range. But thats not how I buy things that cost more than $200. I usually do my homework, find out what features are best for me, pick a specific item, then shop it through various outlets (Ebay included)."


Several good responses. A few more thoughts. If you are taking lessons, consult with your teacher.

Ralph Maltby's Golfworks publishes a very good book (short and inexpensive) about the importance of fitting golf clubs. About $4.95 plus S&H; I would consider it money well spent. Golfsmith has a similar book, but it is more expensive and IMO less helpful.

In addition, so much of club preference and feel is individual. The real proof of the pudding is in the actual hitting of the golf ball. Some clubs that others have liked have done nothing for me (even when generally in my specs). Demo days at a local course or range are a good way to try alot of differnt clubs in a short time. Many demo days do not leave enough time for a good fitting, so I would be somewhat reluctant to buy a full set of irons on demo day (unless I had been previously fitted for that brand).

Also, no one has explicitly mentioned components. Golfsmith, Ralph Maltby's Golfworks, and Dynacraft are the big three in components; though Golfsmith is gettimg more and more OEM has it opens more and more retail stores. This site: http://www.swingweight.com/recommended_clubmakers.htm discusses clubmakers and contains an article about choosing a clubmaker
(see http://www.swingweight.com/choosing_a_clubmaker.htm ). I have had alot of good experiences with components --- All my woods and trouble clubs are components as well as my Sand Wedge (the only one I have ever really like, and I have a nice sized collection). Golfsmith also offer a 1/2 day in-store class on how to make clubs; when I took it, we built both a Driver and a 6-iron. Depending upon your DIY instincts, you may eventually want to consider this.

Lastly, although it is not a glamorous topic, the shaft you choose is very important bothin terms of the results and how the club will feel to you. The more I have experimented with clubs, the fussier I have become about shafts.

The general rules - steel shafts are generally less expensive and heavier (but may be more consistent across shafts) than graphite shafts, which are usually lighter, more expensive, and more shock absorbing than steel.

Iron heads are usually either cast or forged. Forging is generally more expensive, unless the casting process uses multiple metals. Perimeter weighter heads are more forgiving, and the larger the clubface the more perimeter weighting that is theoretically possible. Larger clubs heads also usually inspire more confidence. Until recently, it was more difficult to perimeter weight forgings than cast iron heads.

Even though most people talk about a bigge sweet spot, the sweet spot is still the sweet spot and does not change. What changes is the amount of fall-off from ideal when missing the sweetspot. Clubs that are more forgiving produce results closer to those that would result from hitting the sweet spot. Generally, older forged clubs, especially, produced results that were substantiallyless than ideal even if the sweet spot was barely missed (i.e., therefore were less forgiving). If you are a visual person, consider the dispersion results of multiple hits with a club as a bell curve - forgiving clubs have wide hump (with a shallow slope) that does not drop off until you are far from the sweet spot. Unforgiving clubs would have a narrow hump with a much steeper slope.

Grips - find the right size and then one you like - the cheap ones are rarely less than $2.00 and most do not run much above $5.00 (today's prices) -- and then take care of them.

Just my long-winded $0.02.

Regards, JAFO









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Author: SEA99 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1522 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/9/2002 9:30 PM
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Another route one could follow is to find a good set of used clubs. You can then get the irons adjusted to suit your swing.

libra

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Author: nole1 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1523 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/9/2002 10:45 PM
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I have to say, robot's response kind of bothers me. I don't mind looking at a book at Barnes & Noble and buying it online, since B&N hasn't really given me any service other than having the book on its shelf.

If you ask a store (which is, after all, made up of people like you and me, that are trying to make a living) to:

1) custom fit you with several different price levels of clubs
2) loan you clubs and make recommendations based on what you tell them and
3) repeat this process until you finally get the clubs you like.

then it seems to me that you owe it to the shop and salesman to go ahead and buy your clubs there, even if they cost $50 or $100 more than www.cheapgolfstuffff.com (btw...don't bother, I made it up<g>).

It's this type of behavior that has driven "mom and pop" shops out of business and caused us to be the land of WalMart and other megastores where service is a forgotten term.

Sorry for getting on a soapbox, but I feel that when people perform a service for you (that you requested), you shouldn't stiff them.

Scott

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Author: AtlantaDon Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1525 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/9/2002 11:24 PM
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<If you ask a store (which is, after all, made up of people like you and me, that are trying to make a living) to:

1) custom fit you with several different price levels of clubs
2) loan you clubs and make recommendations based on what you tell them and
3) repeat this process until you finally get the clubs you like.

then it seems to me that you owe it to the shop and salesman to go ahead and buy your clubs there, even if they cost $50 or $100 more>

Amen. I think it is a form of freeloading to take somebody's time and pick their brains when you have no intention of buying from them. I'd at least give them a chance to be reasonably competitive.

However, the suggestion to get fitted for a set of irons is on the money if you really want to improve your game. Woods are pretty standard once you choose the lofts (i.e. 9 or 10 degree driver) and the right shaft for your swing speed (regular, stiff).

Getting a set of irons fitted properly can be even a bit more complicated than suggested previously. In addition to getting the right type of club for your game (probably a relatively forgiving perimeter-weighted type of iron if you're not an advanced player; Ping and Callaway would be a couple of good choices) with the right kind of shaft for your swing speed and the right length (you might vary off standard by an inch or so if depending on your height and how long your arms are), the lie of the club is also very important. The lie is determined by the angle of the shaft and the clubhead; getting it right is important so the club sits flat to the ground when you address the ball properly. With the proper lie a good swing will result in the middle of the sole of the club hitting the ground first rather than the heel or the toe, which means you'll produce better shots. The way you'll hear lie expressed is in terms of the clubs being 1-2 degrees upright or flat. If it turns out from a fitting that you can use irons of standard lenght, lie and shaft flex, you'd have a better chance of finding a good used set of irons. If not, you might need to go new or maybe look at Pings. Pings are made in a bunch of different configurations that are described by the color dot they have on the clubhead; i.e. green dot, blue dot, black dot.

I bought my current set of irons (Titleist DCI 962's) 3 or 4 years ago after going through their fitting process with a local teaching pro. The Pings I had been hastily fitted for and played with for almost 10 years turned out to be a bit too long and too upright. He had me hitting balls off an acryllic board. He put a piece of tape on the bottom of the club and after I hit 2 or 3 balls we would look to see where the mark on the sole of the club was. As I mentioned, with a properly fitted club it should be right in the center of the sole. I had an immediate improvement in my iron play with the new set and I think it was due more to the better fitting than the brand of club.

I'd recommend seeing a good pro that knows how to fit clubs and talk to him or her about your budget constraints up front. I'd want to let the pro watch you hit balls outdoors where you both can see the ball flight rather than taking some reading off a machine while you're hitting into a net at an Edwin Watts store. If it takes another couple of hundred to get a good properly fitted set I'd recommend waiting until you have the money rather than compromising on the fit; $400 might be a little bit light for a good new set. Maybe the pro can come up with a good used set that fits. There are a lot of fickle golfers who change clubs a lot; if you can pick up a good 2 or 3 year old set of irons that fits that's a good way to go. They may need to be regripped but that should only cost about $5 per club.

If you get a properly fitted set of clubs and take some lessons to learn how to properly grip the club and set up to the ball plus the basic fundamentals of the swing you'll maximize your chances of playing better. And when you play better you'll enjoy the game a lot more.

Good luck.

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Author: nole1 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1526 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/9/2002 11:47 PM
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When I wrote:

I feel that when people perform a service for you (that you requested), you shouldn't stiff them.

I just wanted to make this clear, I don't think you should give them the regular "shaft", either<g>....

Sorry, I had to...

Scott

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Author: TMFKaren Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1531 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/10/2002 7:26 AM
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Hi Dozer,

I just bought a new set of irons. (Wouldn't you know that you posted your note the very next day.) I, too, felt the process was confusing. I would consider myself in the same boat as you....a beginner. I went to a couple of local golf stores, including Golfsmith, and a new store called Second Swing Golf. One of the previous posters suggested you have the store tape the clubs and head to the driving range or course with them, but the stores near me wouldn't go for that. Golfsmith has a high tech virtual driving range, in house, so that you can try out the clubs right there. I didn't particularly care for that because it was dark and hard to see in there, and I didn't feel there was enough time to really get the *feel* of any specific club. Second Swing allows you to purchase a used set and try them on the course for 3 days, but you can't get a cash refund if you don't like the clubs...they'll only issue store credit. They sell used and new clubs, but I don't think the policy applies to new clubs. Both stores had very knowledgeable salespeople.

My feeling, which I relayed to the salesman, was that I wanted clubs that would provide me with EVERY technological advantage out there, within my price range. I was leaning towards the Callaway X-14s, but the salesman steered me to the brand new lady King Cobra SS Oversized irons. He felt that they would do a lot for my game, but were more affordable than the Callaways.

I left the store and didn't return for another week. In that time, I did research online, asked other golfers what clubs they used, and talked it over at length with my husband. To be honest, I still was unsure what would be best over the long term. I was almost to the point of flipping a coin!

Ultimately, since we knew that the Cobra brand was excellent, and because I had some good shots using his Cobra Fairway 9 Wood, we would purchase them. Price was a factor, too. Heading back to Golfsmith, I ended up with the Cobra Irons, and with the savings over the X-14s, I bought a new Cobra 3 Wood. (I don't use a driver.)

I used the new clubs later that day, and although it took a little time to get used to them, I had some awesome shots that I don't think would have gone the distance with my old entry level clubs. I'm very encouraged and am looking forward to my next round.

Hope this helps...and good luck with your golf game.

Foolishly,

Karen

P.S. Golfsmith has a low price guarantee, and believe it or not, I found the same set $50.00 cheaper at http://www.golfdiscount.com. My next step is to take my receipt and the ad back to Golfsmith, and get my refund. That's worry free shopping, imho.


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Author: GADawg Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1535 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/10/2002 10:46 AM
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I going to be in the market for a new set of irons. I am possibly looking to buy in the next couple of months. Right now I can spend around $400. I have been playing about 16 months,and still consider myself a beginner.

I will echo JAFO's suggestion to go with components. If I were you, I would find a local clubmaker and go to him. He can look at your swing, talk to you about your strengths and weaknesses, and build a set customized to your swing.

Callaway, Taylor Made, and the other big companies rarely offer much customization in shafts. Two or three flexes is all you usually see, but a professional clubmaker has literally hundreds of shafts available to him that he can use to match your swing exactly. Maybe your swing is 91mph with a driver and you need a shaft that's stiffer than R flex, but more flexible than S flex. A clubmaker can take a combination flex shaft and cut it in between those flexes to give you a R/S flex. Callaway will just tell you to pick one or the other.

Also, you may have a problem with your shots going too high. That suggests you need a shaft with a high kick point, which is very hard to find in OEM clubs, but not for clubmakers.

Also, a clubmaker should be able to do all this for less than a set of Callaway, Ping, or Taylor Made clubs will cost.

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Author: dozer183e Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1537 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/10/2002 11:24 AM
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Thank you all for the great advice. I will start looking into all of those tips. Clubmaking seem a bit extravagent for me, but I will still look into it.

Karen, did you have the set of Cobras fitted for you? Let us know on how you fare with getting the refund.

I'll go and absorb these posts, and then possibly return with further questions!

Dozer

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Author: swimdad Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1542 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/10/2002 4:20 PM
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Just remember...

Drive for show, putt for dough: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~pyang/flash/miniputt.swf

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Author: dozer183e Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1544 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/10/2002 6:42 PM
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Another route one could follow is to find a good set of used clubs. You can then get the irons adjusted to suit your swing.


This was a question I asked earlier, but didn't really get a response.

Could I take a set of clubs down to somewhere like Golfsmith, and have them fitted? If so, what would I expect to pay for that type of service?

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1545 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/10/2002 7:17 PM
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dozer183e: "I will start looking into all of those tips. Clubmaking seem a bit extravagent for me, but I will still look into it."

Why do you think it extravagant? It is often considerably less expensive than OEM clubs - especially the biggest brands - Calloway, Titliest, TaylorMade, Ping, Nike -- with their extremely large advertising budgets.

Even those recommending OEM clubs suggested a good fitting session.

I have two trouble clubs 21* and 24* Jackaroos
(see http://stores.yahoo.com/dynacraftgolf/jacutclub.html ) that I would not trade for the TaylorMade rescue clubs of a few years ago, and for considerably less money.

Head - $12 + S&H - call it $18
Rifle Steel Shaft - $13 (my preferred shaft and fit to my length)
Tour Wrap, mid-size half-cord grip - $5
labor - $10, IIRC - for a total all in cost of $46, more or less, and considerably less than even teh discounted, clos-out prices from TaylorMade.

And I no longer carry a 3-iron or a 4-iron.

Decent iron heads probably will not exceed $10-$15, unless you are going forged:

Golfsmith XPC3 stainless at $7.95/head

http://www.golfsmith.com/plsqlg/plsql/banner?p_style_num=2133&p_intrans_id=100000014320690&web_id=PD

Rifle shaft are at the upper end in cost for steel shafts and other good steel shafts can be had for less.

True Temper Dynamic Gold at $7.65, unless you also want sensicore $13.20. TT Lite at less than $6.00.

Graphite shafts run through a whole host of price ranges.

Penley Tour Light, around $36 per
Grafalloy Pro Logic, $21 per or $160 for an iron set of shafts
Golfsmtih XPC graphite - $11.25 per.

Grips - $2-5 unless you want leather or something exotic.

Say $10 (head) + $ 8(shaft) + $3(grip) + $15(labor) = $36/club
Say 3-9 plus PW = 8 clubs = $288 +/-, plus tax.

You may not even need/want a 3-iron and you might even consider replacing the 4 and the 5, too, depending upon what other clubs you carry.

Regards, JAFO







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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1546 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/10/2002 7:27 PM
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dozer183e:

<<<<Another route one could follow is to find a good set of used clubs. You can then get the irons adjusted to suit your swing.>>>>

"This was a question I asked earlier, but didn't really get a response.

Could I take a set of clubs down to somewhere like Golfsmith, and have them fitted? If so, what would I expect to pay for that type of service?"


Within reason, yes; iron can usually only be bent +/- 2 degrees/maybe 3 without risking damage. Possibly a fitting fee. After that it would depend on what needed to be done; more of these services are priced ala cart. Lengthening is usually slightly more expenive than shortening --- say $5 club versus $3, plus the cost of the new grip. Bending usually costs more, around $10 per club.

This is what I did for my current clubs. A few years ago, I found a set of Hogan Radials (which I always liked) with little wear and not that expensive, so I scooped them up. I new my specs from prior fittings, so I took them directly to a clubmaker to be lengthened, regripped per above, and bent more upright. They replaced some Titliest DCIs that I had purchased through a PGA club pro (and which I have retained because my specs not near normal). Nothing since has come close to enticing them out of my hands.

Mr. Hogan was light years ahead of his time with this design the debuted in the late 1980s.

Regards, JAFO


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Author: AtlantaDon Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1547 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/10/2002 7:36 PM
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<Could I take a set of clubs down to somewhere like Golfsmith, and have them fitted? If so, what would I expect to pay for that type of service?>

That's not really a viable option. I have occasionally had a wedge that I didn't think was producing the normal distance checked and found to be a degree or two of loft strong or weak. Somebody that has the right equipment and knows what he's doing can make that adjustment and probably won't even charge you for it on a club or two. Do it too often or try to make too big adjustment and you can end up with a weakened club that snaps on you one day if not during the adjustment.

But clubs aren't made to be adjustable. Other than changing the size of the grips, which isn't a big deal, I wouldn't recommend trying to modify an existing set of clubs. You can get clubs reshafted, but it's too expensive unless you have a set of clubs you really don't want to give up.

You want to get fitted for clubs and then get a set that is manufactured to the specifications you need.

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Author: Zordac Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1548 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/10/2002 11:52 PM
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I have to take exception to a couple of things in the last post.

That's not really a viable option. I have occasionally had a wedge that I didn't think was producing the normal distance checked and found to be a degree or two of loft strong or weak. Somebody that has the right equipment and knows what he's doing can make that adjustment and probably won't even charge you for it on a club or two.

It isn't the loft of the club that you want to adjust so much as the lie and the length of the shaft. The loft and the the weighting and nature of the head (e.g., cavity backed, forged) are intrinsic to the head and can't be changed. You select a head with the design features you want, then adjust lie, shaft, and grip.

But clubs aren't made to be adjustable. Other than changing the size of the grips, which isn't a big deal, I wouldn't recommend trying to modify an existing set of clubs. You can get clubs reshafted, but it's too expensive unless you have a set of clubs you really don't want to give up.

Actually, you can adjust lie to some extent on used clubs, and you certainly can change the shaft and grips. Shaft replacement is quite inexpensive, especially if you do it yourself or know someone who can do it for you. It isn't hard. I'm looking at the current Raven Golf catalog and True Temper Dynamic Gold iron shafts are $7.85 each.




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Author: n2s One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1549 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/11/2002 12:28 AM
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You might be surprised what the used market has to offer. I picked up some $1 a club blades and had 'em regripped. It wasn't really a fitted, etc set. But, in my opinion, all the technological things* get you x% better.

*like fit and perimeter weighting

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Author: AtlantaDon Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1550 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/11/2002 8:04 AM
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<The loft and the the weighting and nature of the head (e.g., cavity backed, forged) are intrinsic to the head and can't be changed.>

Clubs can be bent to alter the loft by a couple of degrees. What I was referencing was a 56 degree sand wedge that I was hitting almost the same distance as a 52 degree wedge. I had the loft checked on the 56 and it was had somehow changed to 54 degrees over the year or two I'd been playing with it. The pro was able to bend it back to 56 (with a vice-like) and my distance with it was back to normal. The pros have clubs bent all the time. If one of them decides to drop his 3 iron for an extra wedge or fairway wood they might have their 4 iron strengthened a couple of degrees to reduce the yardage gap between their 2 and 4 irons.

Changing the shafts isn't necessarily that expensive if you can do it yourself but I was assuming that a relative beginner asking about clubs wouldn't have the equipment or inclination to work on his clubs.

I may be wrong about this, but I was under the impression that altering a club to be longer or shorter can alter its swingweight pretty significantly.

Everybody has their own opinion on this, but I still advocate getting properly fitted and then getting a set of clubs with the right specs rather than trying to make any major modifications to an existing set of clubs.

With regard to the custom made knockoff clubs that somebody else referenced, I know a couple of people that had them (my brother for one) and got rid of them pretty quickly. I don't know if it was psychological, or not wanting others to look in their bag and see cut-rate clubs or what. They might be a good solution for a beginning player but I've never seen a single digit handicap player that plays them. The major golf club companies do a lot of R&D and the knock-off guys basically make copycat clubs; I don't know how close they are to real thing in playability.

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1551 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/13/2002 4:51 PM
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AtlantaDon: "With regard to the custom made knockoff clubs that somebody else referenced, I know a couple of people that had them (my brother for one) and got rid of them pretty quickly. I don't know if it was psychological, or not wanting others to look in their bag and see cut-rate clubs or what. They might be a good solution for a beginning player but I've never seen a single digit handicap player that plays them. The major golf club companies do a lot of R&D and the knock-off guys basically make copycat clubs; I don't know how close they are to real thing in playability."

I never mentioned knock-off clubs or cut-rate clubs - I specifically metnioned the big three of components - Golfsmith, Golfworks, and Dynacraft because they do not do knock-offs and do plenty of their own R&D. In addition, you must not have looked that closely. There are at least one or two tour players (GPA OR SPGA) that play Golfsmith clubs - Scott Verplank and Bruce Lieztke, IIRC (but the catlogues are not with me). And Golfsmith has owned Snake Eyes for a few years now - I have never heard anyone question those clubs.

If you fail to distinguish between the big three component manufacturers (who are respected within the industry) from the real knock-off clubs made by people who refuse to attach their names and often in violation of IP law - like King Snake irons or Big Brother woods --- then you are discussing apples and oranges. Further evidence of this is that Golfsmith also sells plenty of OEM equipment, and none of the large OEM manufacturers would do business with them if the OEM manufacturers thought that GOlfsmith was selling illegal clones.

For example, if you are referring to the trouble club I discussed, mine has more offset, real rails and additional weigthing in rails (to make getting the ball airborne easier), that no one who knows anything about clubs would would consider it a clone of TaylorMade. There are real differences and I prefer my club.

You would also be amazed at how much the cost of advertising - print, TV and player endorsements drive the costs of OEM clubs.

Regards, JAFO





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Author: AtlantaDon Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1552 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/13/2002 5:04 PM
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JAFO, thanks for the clarification. I was confusing Golfsmith with the companies that do copycat clubs with the screwy names. There is one west of Atlanta that had a knockoff of virtually every best selling club.

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1553 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/13/2002 7:34 PM
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AtlantaDon: "JAFO, thanks for the clarification. I was confusing Golfsmith with the companies that do copycat clubs with the screwy names. There is one west of Atlanta that had a knockoff of virtually every best selling club."

Your welcome. I agree about staying away from the clones/knock-offs ---lack of material and production control can lead to real inconsistencies. I would suggest, however, that the big three are different. I have also had some luck with another company, but even in my mind they border closer to the line.

If you have never seen the catalogues, you could find them online or call the 800 numbers and ask that a catalogue be mailed (all three advertise in the usual golf magazines).

Regards, JAFO


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Author: Zordac Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1554 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/13/2002 8:48 PM
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I said: The loft and the the weighting and nature of the head (e.g., cavity backed, forged) are intrinsic to the head and can't be changed.

AtlantaDon said: Clubs can be bent to alter the loft by a couple of degrees.


AD, what I meant is that changing the loft is not part of the normal club fitting process-- instead, it is the initial choice of the head that is used to determine loft, forgiveness, sweet spot size, ability to work the ball, and so on, and then the lie, length of shaft, nature of shaft, and grip are custom-fit.

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Author: dozer183e Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1555 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/14/2002 3:16 PM
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I have been checking into clubmaking. I've investigated Dynacraft and Golfsmith components. I must say I really like what I am hearing about Dynacraft. They have three lines of Irons that I would be interested in. Copperhead CU's are apparently similar to the TaylorMade Firesoles. I took the online fitting tutorial at www.customgolf.com, and these are the ones they recommended for me. The Dynaflex models are similar to Callaway X-14s, and slightly more money, but I would consider those as well. Then they have the PC3, which is similar the the Ping i3. I really like the PC3 Woods, but I would probably stick to one of the previous iron sets.

www.customgolf.com sells these iron sets assembled for around $250. It would be cheaper if I ordered the components directly from Dynacraft and assembled them myself, but the last thing I need is to take on another hobby. Don't get me wrong, club making sounds like something I'd be interested in, but without the tools, without the know-how, and without the time to invest, it would probably be better not to take on such a venture.

Golfsmith components seem quality as well, but the feedback I have been getting from such places as www.golfreview.com and www.golfclubreview.com is that the Dynacrafts are more my flavor.

As far as OEMs go, Callaway X-14s top my list, except for price. TaylorMade 200's are more affordable, and pretty nice too. I demo'd those two and others. The main scare I have about the Dynacrafts is that I can't demo them anywhere. The customgolf website has a 30 day satisfaction guarantee, but we all know that those aren't always the easiest to use.

Onward I go....

Dozer

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Author: GADawg Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1556 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/14/2002 3:46 PM
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Here is a link: http://clubmaker-online.com/clubmaker.directory.html for clubmakers and their locations. Try to find one in your area and visit him. He will be able to build clubs from Dynacraft, Golfsmith, and many other companies. He should also have demo clubs already built that you can go try.

If you can't find one in your area, you could get two or three kinds of five irons built. You can buy a single iron for $30 or so, and you can then try them on your own time. If one jumps out at you, finish the set.

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Author: WBGolf Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1557 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/15/2002 7:07 AM
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"As far as OEMs go, Callaway X-14s top my list, except for price.
TaylorMade 200's are more affordable, and pretty nice too. I demo'd those
two and others."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dozer:

If you like the Callaways, check Ebay for a competitive price on X-12's.
I have a set that I will sell. I went back to my old 845's. This way, you can get a good set of clubs without having to go the "copycat" route.

Make me an offer I can't refuse.
I'll pay shipping too.
WBGOLF

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Author: WBGolf Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1558 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/15/2002 7:10 AM
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Follow up:

The X-12s are 3-wedge, approach wedge, lob wedge, and sand wedge.
They are graphite shafts, firm flex. I would say they are in good shape, not perfect like new, but average for about two years old.

They are not damaged. I am an 8 hdcp, so they haven't exactly been hacked around either.

WBGOLF

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Author: TMFKaren Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1559 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/15/2002 8:29 AM
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Dozer,

Karen, did you have the set of Cobras fitted for you?

I didn't have the clubs fitted...I purchased ladies clubs, which are a little smaller than the mens. To be honest, until I read the posts here, I didn't even know I could have them fitted. So far they have met my expectations, and I hope that my game improves as I grow with these clubs. As for the 3-wood, I was a little disappointed with my tee shots, but I think its nothing that a few trips to the driving range won't solve. After all, I'm a beginner, and I think most problems have to do with ME!!! <g>

Let us know on how you fare with getting the refund.

Golfsmith game me the refund. Of course, the manager informed me that they don't usually give refunds based on internet competitors, but I had specifically asked the salesman about that when shopping, and he told me they would. The store manager honored the price, and told me that he will have to discuss the policy with the sales people. (Oddly, my salesman was the floor manager, and he should have known this, imho.)

Fool on!

Karen

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Author: dozer183e Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1560 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/15/2002 11:59 AM
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WBGolf, sorry, I am looking for regular flex. I did swing a set of X-12s at a local shop the other day and I liked them. A bit bulky, but still nice. They are getting rid of the few sets they have left in stock for $499.

Good price or bad price for brand new?

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Author: WBGolf Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1561 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/15/2002 2:20 PM
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"
WBGolf, sorry, I am looking for regular flex. I did swing a set of X-12s at a
local shop the other day and I liked them. A bit bulky, but still nice. They are
getting rid of the few sets they have left in stock for $499.

Good price or bad price for brand new?"


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Doz:
I think that's a fair price, seeing as how they were about $800 at one time.

WBGOLF

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Author: Robert52 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1562 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/15/2002 9:12 PM
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I just bought a set of irons. A friend of mine recommended a good local custom golf shop. They measured my swing speed (93 MPH with a 6 iron) and let me try various samples. I decided on KZG model EL250 irons. They adjusted the lie angle, installed a stiff shaft (one step above regular), measured my hands for proper grip size, and added one inch to the regular shaft length (I am 6'4"). I added a sand wedge to the 3-9 set, and the total price including 6% CT sales tax was around $389.00.

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1563 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/15/2002 9:13 PM
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dozer183e: "I have been checking into clubmaking. I've investigated Dynacraft and Golfsmith components. I must say I really like what I am hearing about Dynacraft.

. . .

www.customgolf.com sells these iron sets assembled for around $250. It would be cheaper if I ordered the components directly from Dynacraft and assembled them myself, but the last thing I need is to take on another hobby. Don't get me wrong, club making sounds like something I'd be interested in, but without the tools, without the know-how, and without the time to invest, it would probably be better not to take on such a venture.

Golfsmith components seem quality as well, but the feedback I have been getting from such places as www.golfreview.com and www.golfclubreview.com is that the Dynacrafts are more my flavor."


"The main scare I have about the Dynacrafts is that I can't demo them anywhere. The customgolf website has a 30 day satisfaction guarantee, but we all know that those aren't always the easiest to use."

See if the seller will ship one for you to demo. If not, you could order the components for 1 club and have a local clubmaker assemble (if you do not want to). The local Golfsmith stores around here offer a 1/2 club assembly course that is relatively inexpensive.

Regards, JAFO



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Author: dozer183e Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1564 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/16/2002 12:31 PM
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Well I have located a couple of local custom clubmakers and will visit their shops within the next week or so. When I called on the phone they rattled off the clubheads they use, but I didn't recognize any. Of course the guys say they are all quality, but wouldn't you if you were selling them? I asked about Dynacraft, and they both said they don't use them. I like the prospect of getiing fully fitted and a club customized to me, but should I be concerned with the components being used? One guy told me the clubs are guaranteed for their lifetime. He has been making clubs here for 12 years.

I found another out of state clubmaker on the internet yesterday who makes Dynacraft clubs. THeir prices are very competetive. I can get an 8 club set of Irons for less than $200, including shipping. And I feel confident in those clubheads from everything I've read. I might do as JAFO suggested, and see if the guy will send me a demo.

I took the PING online fitting, and they determined that I would be a black dot (standard lie) with standard length. Shafts with regular flex. So maybe I'd be comfortable getting standard clubs. At least for now. At $200, could I go that wrong???

Side note: I went by Golfsmith yesterday to find that the store is closing. 40% off Clubheads, 30% off shafts, and 20% off sets. They aren't assembling any more clubs or offering anymore classes.

Dozer

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Author: AtlantaDon Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1565 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/16/2002 5:47 PM
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Dozer, if a standard iron fits you that could really open things up in the used market because that's mostly what you'll find. A good 2 to 3 year old set of standard irons would be a good way to go if you find something you like.

If you plan to get serious about the game I'd recommend buying a 3 through PW set of irons and then getting some good specialty wedges (sand, lob, perhaps 52 degree gap wedge depending on whether you want to carry 2 or 3 woods) like Cleveland, Titleist Vokey, Snake Eyes, etc. You might be able to find something used there as well.

I'm a big believer in the Dave Pelz 4-wedge theory regardless of what type of player you are. I think his statistics show that about half of the shots played by the most golfers, whether average or accomplished players, are within 100 yards of the green. It doesn't make sense to have 3 clubs (PW, SW and putter) out of 14 for half of the shots you play. Pelz did a huge study to arrive at this conclusion. From 200 yards out even a tour player has very low odds of hitting a shot close enough to the hole to have a high probability of making the putt (a 6 foot putt is about 50-50 for a tour pro and above 10 feet it drops off pretty sharply), so even if have to hit a 3 iron when you'd like to hit a 2 iron or 5 wood it probably won't make much difference in the outcome. When you're inside 100 yards you have a realistic shot of hitting it close enough to get up and down in 2 if you have a variety of wedges that let you play the shot that is appropriate for the situation. I carry a 48 degree PW plus 52, 56 and 60 Vokey wedges. The 56 and 60 wedges spin the ball so well I can just about stop it on the hood of a car when I hit it cleanly with anything from a 3/4 to a full swing. A good short game will take you a long way.

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Author: GADawg Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1566 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/16/2002 6:05 PM
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Dozer, if a standard iron fits you that could really open things up in the used market because that's mostly what you'll find. A good 2 to 3 year old set of standard irons would be a good way to go if you find something you like.

The big manufacturers do stick with standard sets, but getting a fitting over the internet is much different than letting an experienced clubmaker see your swing and measure your body and swing together. He may very well need clubs that aren't standard.

If you plan to get serious about the game I'd recommend buying a 3 through PW set of irons and then getting some good specialty wedges (sand, lob, perhaps 52 degree gap wedge depending on whether you want to carry 2 or 3 woods) like Cleveland, Titleist Vokey, Snake Eyes, etc. You might be able to find something used there as well.

I like Pelz also, but remember who we're talking about here. This guy is a beginner looking for his first set of clubs. He'll be lucky to hit the green inside 150 yards, let alone spin his shots and get the ball inside 10 feet. Two wedges should be sufficient until he learns more about the game and discovers his natural approach to it. I, for one, would recommend a 7 wood and 9 wood instead of a 3 iron and 4 iron. Most beginners have better luck with the woods.

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Author: AtlantaDon Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1568 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/16/2002 11:08 PM
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<I like Pelz also, but remember who we're talking about here. This guy is a beginner looking for his first set of clubs. He'll be lucky to hit the green inside 150 yards, let alone spin his shots and get the ball inside 10 feet. Two wedges should be sufficient until he learns more about the game and discovers his natural approach to it. I, for one, would recommend a 7 wood and 9 wood instead of a 3 iron and 4 iron. Most beginners have better luck with the woods.>

The point about playing half of your shots from inside 100 yards is just as valid for a high handicap as for a low handicap player. If he isn't going to hit the green from 180 yards, does it really matter whether he's carrying a 4 iron or 7 wood? The 2 most important things to being a semi-decent golfer are to get the ball in play off the tee (even if you don't hit it very far) and to develop a decent short game. I'd advise beginning golfers to hit a 3 wood off the tee if they can't control a driver and to devote a lot of practice time (and hopefully some lessons) to learning the short game. Most high handicap golfers never figure that out. They will beat drivers on the practice range for hours and never practice their short game. The pros are the other way around.

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Author: bdluckyshot Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1570 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/17/2002 7:14 AM
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I'm still trying to find the set of clubs that's engineered so that the sweet spot is on the hozzle.

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Author: saml72933 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1572 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/17/2002 11:12 AM
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A lot has been said on this thread about custom made clubs built to be compatable to ones swing. I agree with this but---

IMO, a golfer just starting to learn the game does not need this.

His/her swing starting out will not be such that it can be anylized with any degree of accuracy that would be helpful.

I think it would be best to get a good set of standard clubs, get some instruction in basics and start learning to swing the club.

Then when his/her handicap gets to 18 or below, go for the custom clubs.

In the mean time, as Atlantadon says, work, work, work on the short game (good advice for ALL golfers).

Do this and you will be a better golfer in the long run and enjoy the game more.

Sam

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Author: GADawg Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1573 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/17/2002 11:24 AM
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Then when his/her handicap gets to 18 or below, go for the custom clubs.

This excludes half of all golfers from ever having quality, custom equipment. You are correct to a degree. A beginner won't have his swing grooved and it may be easier to adjust his swing than his equipment. But no golfer can easily change his body and a clubmaker can compensate for an exceptionally tall, short, inflexible, or some other variation of the standard golfer. And they can do it cheaper than a set of Callaways will cost.

I will add a caveat to this golfer on lessons. Beginning lessons can be fine, but lessons can be addictive. If you go to a pro, he can't fix all your swing faults at once, so he fixes one or two. This means that the things you were doing to compensate for these wrong moves no longer work to improve your shots, they work to make your shots worse. If you go to the pro for enough lessons, and spend enough time at the range, you can change your swing into a consistently correct swing that gives good distance and accuracy. However, if you're like the majority of golfers and you don't have the time and money to spend at lessons and the range, you just want to play once a week, I recommend not taking lessons beyond the beginning series of basics. Learn to rely on your natural swing and you should have little problems playing average golf.

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Author: saml72933 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1575 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/17/2002 11:59 AM
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GADawg---

I agree with you on the lesson thing.

I think a golfer starting out should get a good knowledge of the basics. Then go from there.

This is why I previously posted the importance of learning why the ball does what it does. If a golfer can determine from the flight of the ball what caused the reaction, then he/she can made adjustments for themselves to correct problems.

I hardly play a round that I don't make some of these minor adjustments to my swing.

BTW, I have played for more that 50 years and I have never had a formal lesson from a pro. I have, however, through all those years, read many books, watched and taken mental notes of pro golfers swings. I have seen many weird swings (from Furyk to Garcia) but one thing they all have in common. From waist high on the down swing to waist high on the follow through (the hitting area) they are all the same. Seems that how they get it there is a personal choice.

Having said all this, I play to a 7 handicap, so it hasn't been all bad for me.

Sam



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Author: nole1 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1581 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/17/2002 6:23 PM
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Sam,

I agree. That was the point I was trying to make with my ill fated "it's NOT my equipment" post.

Fitting clubs, I would think, requires a somewhat repeatable swing.

Scott

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1584 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/17/2002 8:07 PM
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GADawg: "The big manufacturers do stick with standard sets, but getting a fitting over the internet is much different than letting an experienced clubmaker see your swing and measure your body and swing together. He may very well need clubs that aren't standard."

I concur.

<<<<If you plan to get serious about the game I'd recommend buying a 3 through PW set of irons and then getting some good specialty wedges (sand, lob, perhaps 52 degree gap wedge depending on whether you want to carry 2 or 3 woods) like Cleveland, Titleist Vokey, Snake Eyes, etc. You might be able to find something used there as well.>>>>

"I like Pelz also, but remember who we're talking about here. This guy is a beginner looking for his first set of clubs. He'll be lucky to hit the green inside 150 yards, let alone spin his shots and get the ball inside 10 feet. Two wedges should be sufficient until he learns more about the game and discovers his natural approach to it. I, for one, would recommend a 7 wood and 9 wood instead of a 3 iron and 4 iron. Most beginners have better luck with the woods."

If not additional woods, then trouble clubs/hybrids --- those 1/2 iron - 1/2 word clubs --- much easier to hit than an traditional 3-iron.

Regards, JAFO


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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1585 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/17/2002 8:14 PM
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AtlantaDon: "I carry a 48 degree PW plus 52, 56 and 60 Vokey wedges. The 56 and 60 wedges spin the ball so well I can just about stop it on the hood of a car when I hit it cleanly with anything from a 3/4 to a full swing."

I am a big fan of Pelz, too. But I suggest that you are carrying a 9-iron that is labeled PW, and then 3-wedges. Manufacturers started jacking with lofts about 10-15 years ago to feed golfer's egos. That is when Gap/Attack wedges became necessary because the "gap" between the new fangles pitching wedge (old 9-iron) and SW became to great. It is also why the gap between 1-iron, 2-iron and 3-iron became so small; I have even seen one brand that makes no 2-iron --- not enough difference to slot a 2-iron between the 1-iron and 3-iron.

Traditional clubs generally ran with 4 degrees between clubs:

SW - 56
PW - 52
9 - 48
8 - 44
7 - 40
6 - 36
5 - 32
4 - 28
3 - 24
2 - 21 or 20
1 - 16, 17, 18

"A good short game will take you a long way."

I agree.

Regards, JAFO


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Author: branmin Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1593 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/20/2002 10:49 AM
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"This is why I previously posted the importance of learning why the ball does what it does. If a golfer can determine from the flight of the ball what caused the reaction, then he/she can made adjustments for themselves to correct problems."

Could you kindly post this link.........appreciate it
tia. rgds bran.


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Author: saml72933 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1596 of 8948
Subject: Re: Golf Club Research Date: 5/20/2002 11:12 AM
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branmin---

The link to that post is--

http.//www.boards.fool.com/message.asp?mid=17156415

It,s really not very informative, however. It was posted as only my opinion of the importance of knowledge of ball flight.

There are some books about this, I think Ben Hogan has one. Maybe something about it in his "Five Lessons".

Sam

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