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Author: ccurrie One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 4956  
Subject: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 11:45 AM
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I've (finally) closed my account at BuyandHoldup, so my ranting will now end. For both BuyandHolder lovers and haters, I leave you with this, a published opinion (mine) on http://iwon.epinions.com/ (the brokers section):
------------------------------------

BuyandHold made a disastrous decision to start charging a monthly fee ($6.99) whether one trades or not. The $6.99 fee includes two trades per month with $2.99 per trade (buy or sell) thereafter. To keep your commission costs down to 2% or less, you'll have to buy/sell at a rate of at least $350.00 per month.

I was a quarterly drip investor ($300 at the moment), and with 2 buys at $2.99 per trade, before the automatic monthly fee, my commission costs were 2%. BuyandHold began by wanting traditional DRIP investors (i.e., a certain amount of $$ per month, and not necessary every month). This is no longer true. BuyandHold clearly needs commissions, and a lot of them, and they seem to be moving to becoming a more traditional daily trading broker, and their fee and commission structure is designed to encourage active buying and selling (market timing), just what a broker wants. However, as we all know, or should know, active buying and selling is much less productive and profitable than truly buying and holding (see Ric Edelman's "Ordinary people, extraordinary wealth").

BuyandHold announced at the beginning of May that it's new monthly fee would begin on June 1st, one month later. This caused quite of bit of dismay and a mass exodus from BuyandHold (check out the BuyandHold discussion board on www.fool.com). Many people, including myself, felt that the rug had been pulled out from under us, and a month was not enough time to transfer out (I switched over to Sharebuilder). While waiting and waiting and waiting for the transfer, BuyandHold twice hit my account for $6.99. I finally give up, sold everything (more commission costs) and re-purchased everything with Sharebuilder.

This was exceptionally bad customer service, and a real grab for $$ from it's existing customer base. Again, you can read more about the pros and cons of buyandhold on the BuyandHold discussion board on www.fool.com.

BuyandHold lost me as a customer, and even if I had $350 a month to invest, I would not use BuyandHold.
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Author: azriel One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3565 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 1:04 PM
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Your critique is accurate.

It used to be obvious who BuyandHold's target customer was, i.e. small investors who wanted to buy and hold. Since the fee change, I have been wondering who they want as a customer. Obviously the fee change is designed to drive away small accounts that only invest quarterly or annually. But with the lack of realtime trades, B&H seems not such a great place for active traders (large or small) when there are several reputable brokerages that only charge $5 or $7 per trade and have relatively low minimums to open accounts. I believe buyandhold has lost its raison d'etre.


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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3566 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 1:11 PM
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It does appear that BuyandHold's target market has changed, but perhaps not as much as you suggest. Without data to support me I suggest that there are a lot of investors like myself who invest $350 or more per month and hold. For us BuyandHold is ideal. No doubt many of you will not have your needs met by their new policies, and for you I am sorry, but economic realities apparently force them to focus on investors like myself. I cannot fault them for correcting their initial error in selecting a target market, and believe that their new target market is fairly large.

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Author: l3inG Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3567 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 1:44 PM
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...their new target market is fairly large

Well it is a heck of a lot more narrow than it was before.

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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3568 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 1:47 PM
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Look, it's been 2 months since they announced the changes. LET IT GO.

Geez, it didn't take me this long to accept the fact that Bush won the election (despite losing the popular vote) and get on with my life.

If you're leaving B&H, transfer out and move on with your lives (and quit complaining here). If you're staying, accept the higher fees and move on with your lives.

dsbrady

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3569 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 2:00 PM
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Look, it's been 2 months since they announced the changes. LET IT GO.

Well said.

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Author: l3inG Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3570 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 2:07 PM
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Well I would be more than happy to move on, but B&H will NOT close my account. In fact, they have charged me the monthly fee even though I asked them to close the account twice before the fee was due. Each time receiving a reply that it would be closed. Never had this much trouble before the big _change_. Maybe they are busy retabulating the Florida votes.

~Jake

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Author: cpudoc10 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3571 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 2:40 PM
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BuyandHold made a disastrous decision to start charging a monthly fee ($6.99) whether one trades or not. The $6.99 fee includes two...

Disastrous for who?

Your message is just sour grapes and a waste of space here and on iwon.com. The horse is dead.

BUH-BYE!




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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3572 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 5:51 PM
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Well I would be more than happy to move on, but B&H will NOT close my account. In fact, they have charged me the monthly fee even though I asked them to close the account twice before the fee was due. Each time receiving a reply that it would be closed. Never had this much trouble before the big _change_. Maybe they are busy retabulating the Florida votes.
~Jake


I am sincerely sorry to hear this, but don't understand what WE can do for you. What is the purpose of your post? I am beginning to wonder if some of these horror stories are being planted by the competition instead of truly dissatisfied cutomers.

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Author: l3inG Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3573 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 6:05 PM
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Look at my profile. I believe it speaks for itself. I am not a plant. Besides that, what makes you people think this board is only for positive posts about B&H? I don't dislike B&H. It is no longer the company for me. I do think that they are headed down a dead end road. Instead of _expanding_ their services and jacking up fees, they should be scaling back services and reorganizing from within. I could handle a fee increase but coupled with an expansion of services when you are losing money seems moronic to me. So I have moved (or rather tried to move) all of my accounts. I hope they succeed, but I don't see how and I won't be around to find out.

~Jake

PS. I will stop monitoring this board when they decide to close my account. (See previous post for problems I am having.)

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Author: Vulstock Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3574 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 8:19 PM
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I remember l3inG (Jake) when I was posting on the DRIP Boards. And Jake was a BuyandHold supporter. Believe it or not I had my battles with the DRIPPers concerning BuyandHold. I was battling the DRIPPers concerning their distain for Discount Brokers (including BuyandHold).
I noticed when a poster got excited about BuyandHold on the DRIP Boards they would get knock down. At the time, I did not care for the DRIPPers for that. That is probably why the BuyandHold Board came in existence because of the abuse of the DRIPPers. Here is the original post on the BuyandHold Board


http://leviticus.boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=12516595

The Speaker's Corner boards are provided as an individual area for Fools to sound off

and the next message was from MasterQi who is not known as a BuyandHold fanatic.


You wonder why I am here, I just do not care for Fanatics (DRIPPers, BuyandHolders, etc.) I try to put them in their place.

Now I will get posts that I am an Anti BuyandHolder Fanatic.

Actually I am a FOOL Board Fanatic and a Discount Broker Fanatic.

P.S. - BuyandHold has a place for some investors.



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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3575 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 9:08 PM
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Look at my profile. I believe it speaks for itself. I am not a plant.

I believe my previous post was poorly conceived as it did not make two critical things clear:

(1) None of us, myself very much included, has any right to judge who should or should not be here.

(2) I had no idea whether Jake specifically was a plant, but I do wonder about this generically. My apologies.

At the same time, I think it fair to voice my view that those who are unhappy with BuyandHold need to get over it, and to voice my annoyance that many of these folks are whining incessantly about something that no one here can help you with.

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Author: azriel One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3576 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 10:07 PM
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many of these folks are whining incessantly about something that no one here can help you with.

If any potential new BuyandHold customers come here and ask if B&H is a good place to be, they can look through some of these messages and get a feel for the quality of B&H's customer service.

Warning others of possible problems is not a waste of bandwidth IMHO.

- azriel, former B&H cheerleader, now disgruntled customer slowly transferring out







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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3577 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 10:23 PM
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I could handle a fee increase but coupled with an expansion of services when you are losing money seems moronic to me.

You think they'd lose fewer customers by raising their fees with the exact same services as before?

I'm not exactly thrilled with the expanded services (seem fairly ho-hum to me), but to raise fees with the same services would be disastrous.

Also, I don't think this board is only for positive posts. But people keep beating the same dead horse that they're not exactly adding much value to any discussions.

Hearing about people who are having troubles transferring their accounts is a lot different (and a lot more relevant at this point) than posters who keep coming on here complaining about the price increase.

dsbrady

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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3578 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/6/2001 10:31 PM
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If any potential new BuyandHold customers come here and ask if B&H is a good place to be, they can look through some of these messages and get a feel for the quality of B&H's customer service.

And the 2000 or so messages since the changes were announced will still be there. I'm sure if someone asks, someone will mention their change in fees.

However, after a few months, most new people who are just discovering Buy&Hold won't know about the old fees, so it won't be a big deal to them.

I don't like the rise in fees, but they're pretty reasonable compared to things like what banks have done over the past 10 years. (I remember when a returned check fee was between $10-$15. It's now between $25-$30, even though it probably costs the bank less to process it, since a lot of them are handled electronically now)

dsbrady

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Author: CowDad Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3583 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/7/2001 12:10 PM
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dsbrady in italics:
Geez, it didn't take me this long to accept the fact that Bush won the election (despite losing the popular vote) and get on with my life.

What I accept is that he didn't win the election and that he's a pretender. What I accept is that he was put in office by a very corrupt supreme court.

If you were French during WW2, I suppose you'd have just accepted Vichy too.

CowDad

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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3585 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/7/2001 12:47 PM
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If you were French during WW2, I suppose you'd have just accepted Vichy too.

Not at all. What I do accept is this: In 2004, we get the opportunity to get rid of him through legal elections. France in WWII didn't have that opportunity. (until we liberated their butts, that is)

While you and I probably have similar views on who the actual winner was supposed to be, there's nothing we can do about it. According to the laws of the land, he was declared the winner and took office. However, according to the laws of the land, we can try to ensure that something like that doesn't happen again (say by supporting Jeb Bush's opponents in the upcoming election in Florida, and by supporting election reform in our states).

Besides, now I get to make jokes about the mis-steps made by the guy in office.

dsbrady

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Author: CowDad Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3586 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/7/2001 4:26 PM
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dsbrady in italics:
While you and I probably have similar views on who the actual winner was supposed to be, there's nothing we can do about it.

Sure we can do something about it--within limits. We can't put him out of office at the moment, but to just say he's president and we must accept it is no different from the French who accepted Vichy.

What I accept is that he is not legitimately the president. I accept that he did not win the election.

According to the laws of the land, he was declared the winner and took office.

And according to Alan Dershowitz, the decision by the Supreme Court was criminal:

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2001/07/04/dershowitz/index.html

However, according to the laws of the land, we can try to ensure that something like that doesn't happen again (say by supporting Jeb Bush's opponents in the upcoming election in Florida, and by supporting election reform in our states).

My tax refund is going straight to the Democratic Party in Florida. It will be the first time I've ever made a political contribution of any sort. I'm not even a Democrat.

CowDad

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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3587 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/7/2001 5:48 PM
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Sure we can do something about it--within limits. We can't put him out of office at the moment, but to just say he's president and we must accept it is no different from the French who accepted Vichy.


There is a difference. Here, you can say publicly that you don't accept him as President without fear of being arrested and/or shot. (I want to make sure I'm clear here . . . Vichy was the government installed by the Nazis in France, right?). And, I respect your right to say and believe it.

I don't view him as a legitimate President. However, he is The President, no matter how much we hate it. If you feel he's a pretender to the throne, what are you doing about it? Waiting for the next rounds of elections? Good. That's the same thing I'm doing.

In a previous debate with a guy on the Microsoft board about this same sort of thing, I made the argument that whoever won probably wouldn't win re-election (based on the track record of sitting vice-presidents, descendants of previous Presidents, and previously disputed elections). So, in the end, perhaps four years of Bush followed by a less Right-wing guy is better than 4 years of Gore followed by potentially 8 years of a Right-wing guy (or gal).

And according to Alan Dershowitz, the decision by the Supreme Court was criminal:

Interesting article. It's funny, one of the books cited there asserts that Kennedy was gunning for Chief Justice. I assumed it was Scalia. Somehow, with the change in the Senate, I don't know that either of them have a chance at the post.

dsbrady



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Author: CowDad Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3588 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/7/2001 6:46 PM
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Here, you can say publicly that you don't accept him as President without fear of being arrested and/or shot. (I want to make sure I'm clear here . . . Vichy was the government installed by the Nazis in France, right?). And, I respect your right to say and believe it.

Which only gives the Democrats less excuse for not saying it. The only group with the guts to stand up and say it has been the Black Caucus. Well, Bill Clinton also said it. But that's basically it.

The Democrats are a bunch of sheep. You'd think they were scared of being shot.

CowDad

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Author: BandHPatWork Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3594 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/8/2001 9:50 PM
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azriel stated flatly "If any potential new BuyandHold customers come here and ask if B&H is a good place to be, they can look through some of these messages and get a feel for the quality of B&H's customer service."

Humbly, I Beg to differ. What they get is what posters CLAIM about Buy&Hold's customer service - both bad and good.

To bring the rubber down to the road, you may want to listen to the ex tell you all abaout their former spouse, but you can't really tell a lot until you begin to date. Then you can say, "They were RIGHT!!," or..."They didn't have a clue..."

BHP



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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3596 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/8/2001 10:39 PM
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Humbly, I Beg to differ. What they get is what posters CLAIM about Buy&Hold's customer service - both bad and good.

True, but my point wasn't whether the information was accurate. My point was that posters don't have to keep re-hashing the same "I can't believe they raised their fees" debate. If new posters are interested in it, they can read the archived posts.

dsbrady

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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3597 of 4956
Subject: Re: Goodbye BuyandHoldUp Date: 7/8/2001 10:40 PM
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azriel stated flatly "If any potential new BuyandHold customers come here and ask if B&H is a good place to be, they can look through some of these messages and get a feel for the quality of B&H's customer service."


Actually, I believe that was me you were quoting, and not azriel.

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