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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 59164  
Subject: Got time for another medical care articel or two Date: 11/26/2007 9:08 PM
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?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071126/us_nm/immigrants_health_dc

Illegal Latino immigrants do not cause a drag on the U.S. health care system as some critics have contended and in fact get less care than Latinos in the country legally, researchers said on Monday.

Such immigrants tend not to have a regular doctor or other health-care provider yet do not visit emergency rooms -- often a last resort in such cases -- with any more frequency than Latinos born in the United States, according to the report from the University of California's School of Public Health.

The finding from Alexander Ortega and colleagues at the school was based on a 2003 telephone survey of thousands of California residents, including 1,317 undocumented Mexicans, 2,851 citizens with Mexican immigrant parents, 271 undocumented Latinos from countries other than Mexico and 852 non-Mexican Latinos born in the United States.

About 8.4 million of the 10.3 million illegal aliens in the United States are Latino, of which 5.9 million are from Mexico, the report said.
*****************************
Then from today's Los Angeles Times

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-uninsuredkids26nov26,1,1242068.story?coll=la-headlines-health&ctrack=1&cset=true

AMERICAN dream scene: a gorgeous Southern California day. A car-free cul-de-sac on a hilltop overlooking a canyon. A boy and his father, shooting hoops.

But stark reality intruded for a brief moment last summer when 40-year-old Wes Wirkkala tripped, stumbled and almost fell. "Dad, what are you doing? Be careful!" his son Nicholas shouted. "We don't have health insurance."

At 8, Nicholas knows his family cannot risk any visits to the emergency room. He's been told a hundred times, as he dashes out the door with his skateboard, to be careful, to fall on his butt if he has to fall at all because there's no money for broken arms.

Wes Wirkkala, father of three, heard his son's words in front of their Dana Point home and felt shot through with shame. He didn't want this particular family deficiency broadcast through the neighborhood. "It was embarrassing," Wes says. "It kind of makes me feel that I'm not providing everything I should be."

The Wirkkalas, with an income that for five years has hovered around $70,000 and a home they bought in 2004 for $535,000, are a family many would call middle class. But they have been priced out of the private health insurance market, and their circumstances illustrate the core of a political battle over how much a family can earn for their children to qualify for a federal-state partnership called the State Children's Health Insurance Program, or SCHIP. If the outcome of Washington politics goes one way, the children could remain uninsured. If it goes the other way, the children might get health insurance.
**************************
Here's someone with a family income of $70K who feel they can't afford insurance. Sounds odd to me, too.

cliff
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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10299 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/26/2007 11:02 PM
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Here's someone with a family income of $70K who feel they can't afford insurance. Sounds odd to me, too. - cliff
----------------------------------------------------

Not to me. There's no telling what their mortgage payment is on a $535,000 home. After all the crap they take out of a paycheck his take home may be about $4,000/month. You got to have a decent car to get around Los Angeles, plus food, gas, car insurance (mandatory), etc. doesn't leave room for a whole of extras. I'm not even sure I'd consider $70,000/year in Los Angeles solidly middle class. Where I live in Tennessee it would be, but not in Los Angeles.

- Art

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10300 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/26/2007 11:39 PM
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What would it cost to insure a family of four in Orange County, CA? $20,000/year?

Suddenly a $70,000 salary doesn't seem like a lot?

intercst

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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10301 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 12:14 AM
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$70k is close to our income, we have no mortgage or any other debt, but we can't afford private insurance at age 58 with a few health conditions. Which is why DH is still working--we can easily afford group insurance.

The difference between private and group, for us, is ~$4,000/month. (Yikes!)

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10302 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 1:12 AM
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<<The Wirkkalas, with an income that for five years has hovered around $70,000 and a home they bought in 2004 for $535,000, are a family many would call middle class. But they have been priced out of the private health insurance market, >>



Sounds like foolish decision making to me. There is no evidence that they don't have money to buy health insurance ---they simply have other priorities.

And I find the idea of parents telling their kid to be careful as he heads out the door with a skateboard to be amusing stupidity. Land on your arms or butt when you fall on the concrete ---what great advice.


Stupid is as stupid does.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10307 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 10:11 AM
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What a miserly spirit it must take to display this kind of judgemental arrogance. It makes me wonder if the 'choice' to live unencumbered by caring, compassionate attachment to others is a choice at all. - ten -thinking there's more to life than just the love of money.
_____________________________________________________________________

It reminds me of something that I read once when I was into raising corn snakes. I had read an article online that said taking an animal out of it's natural environment and making a pet out of it was somewhat akin to killing it. From an evolutionary standpoint for all practical purposes that animal is dead, no longer in the gene pool, and incapable of leaving it's offspring to the next generation.

Evolution will weed us out. Those of us who chose not to reproduce for whatever reason will not leave any DNA to the next generation so those thinking processes which caused us to be miserly and depend on a certain biochemistry of the brain will be gone with us.

I realize my choices in life end with me. Those of us who live a "miserly hermit-like existence" are little more than a foot-note of history, and perhaps not even that. We are the end of ourselves.

Art

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10308 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 10:34 AM
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<<This guy has a family and is caught in an economical Catch-22 of which you know nothing except that he didn't make the uncharitable choices YOU made, and you have the gall to make pompous comments on what YOU consider to be "amusing stupidity".
>>


If he is caught in an economic Catch 22, it is one of his own devising. And how charitable is it to choose to forego health insurance and then advise teenagers to be sure to fall on their arms or butt rather than their head because you decided not to buy health insurance?

Characterizing this kind of decision making as foolish and reckless seems quite fair and reasonable.


<<Lessee... you choose to live alone, scrooge-like, intent on & content to existing meagerly, miserly in a penny-pinching little world of self-centered survival.
>>



Yep, that's pretty much the case. It leaves me ample resources to pay for my own health insurance. Sorry if I don't meet your standards for overpriced and reckless consumption.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10309 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 11:12 AM
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Being able to afford private health insurance depends on one's age and health as well as available income. If you don't start private health insurance by age 50 (or after 64) or before interesting health issues crop up, you are likely hosed.

For example, my brother has several health conditions, but as an entrepreneur, he's had private health insurance for over 20 years and pays "only" ~$1,000/month for it (even so, there are exclusions). DH and I could afford to pay twice that, or $2k/month, but not $4k. I suspect that the percentage of American households who can afford $48,0000 per year for health insurance is perhaps 5% (as of mid-2006, the top 5% of households enjoyed income of $157k +).

Lucky for us, my husband enjoys his semi-retirement job. It not only provides 4 months of vacation time (yup, he's teaching), but also retiree health insurance that can start as early as age 60 (our governor wants to raise that age...as a taxpayer I can dig it, but as someone who wants her hubby to retire along with me, not so much ;-).

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Author: vickifool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10310 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 11:36 AM
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What would it cost to insure a family of four in Orange County, CA? $20,000/year?

Suddenly a $70,000 salary doesn't seem like a lot?

intercst


For a family of four in Anaheim with the oldest under 40, Kaiser costs $693/ month. That's with $50/visit copays, a $7000 out of pocket max, and no drug or dental coverage.

Vickifool

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10316 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 1:16 PM
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<<You must've missed this part...

"But they have been priced out of the private health insurance market"

...of the OP.
>>



Saying the words doesn't make it a fact. There is nothing in the article to suggest anything but that these people decided to buy the house rather than health insurance.


Suppose junior, having been admomnished to fall on his hands or elbows, came home with a dislocated shoulder from doing so and a note from the orthopedic surgeon asking the family to put up $25,000 for the operation the kid needs to repair the injury.


<<Characterizing this kind of decision making as foolish and reckless seems quite fair and reasonable.
-----

Maybe to someone of such a cold calculating miserly spirit that leaves no room for other people in their life, but to a caring human being... not so much.

>>


If this family suffers a serious injury or illness, I'm sure they would discover that spending for health insurance isn't an expression of miserliness, but of wisdom and prudence.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10318 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 1:26 PM
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Nevermind, I feel like I'm talking to a brick.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10321 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 2:50 PM
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If he is caught in an economic Catch 22, it is one of his own devising. And how charitable is it to choose to forego health insurance and then advise teenagers to be sure to fall on their arms or butt rather than their head because you decided not to buy health insurance?

Characterizing this kind of decision making as foolish and reckless seems quite fair and reasonable. - Seattle Pioneer

_______________________________________________________________

Not really. What that man is doing is what our human ancestors have done for the last 150,000 years. Humans lived without insurance for the largest part of human history. It's a relatively new phenomena in our history. Not only that, only a very small percentage of the present world's human population has health insurance.

Very few people have the luxury of being able to afford health insurance. So, for 150,000 years homo sapiens lived without health insurance, and of the present world's population only a very small percentage have health insurance. What that man is doing is what the largest percentage of people have always done, which is take their chances.

Let's face it, what we are afraid of is that we will have to pay the bill for any health care that man and his wife and children will incur. It terrifies us, yet the alternative is to let them suffer in deep agonizing pain while they slowly die.

I personally don't think that's fair because the Federal/state Goverment has such a lock on health care that we aren't even allowed to grow our own opium poppies to make morphine or smoke cannabis to alleviate the pain, and even who is allowed to become a doctor is so highly regulated that it escalates the cost of health care to astronomical levels. When one becomes a doctor there is this expectation that one is going to become wealthy so it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

As long the Federal Goverment keeps such tight reins on health care they have a duty to insure that everyone is taken care. Personally I think they should either get in or out. Either open the flood gates or take over completely. I think the way it is right now is unfair and immoral.

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10322 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 2:53 PM
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For a family of four in Anaheim with the oldest under 40, Kaiser costs $693/ month. That's with $50/visit copays, a $7000 out of pocket max, and no drug or dental coverage. - Vickifool
--------------------------------------------------

That may be dependent on pre-existing conditions. One's health status. I'm on high blood pressure medicine, arthritis medicine, and cholesterol medicine. With my body mass index I'm betting that very few, if any, health insurance companies would even want to carry me.

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10324 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 3:03 PM
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Maybe to someone of such a cold calculating miserly spirit that leaves no room for other people in their life, but to a caring human being... not so much. - tenworlds
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, at least it's self limiting. It's not like he's breeding more people like himself. His beliefs will die with him. If there's any part of our thought processes that are controlled by brain biochemistry that means they are ultimately reliant on DNA so those people like Seattle Pioneer and myself who intentionally choose not to reproduce will not leave that part of ourselves to the next generation.

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10325 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 3:08 PM
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Nevermind, I feel like I'm talking to a brick. - tenworlds


I understood perfectly where you were coming from and what you said. You were talking spiritually and morally and Seattle Pioneer is an avowed atheist and feels no moral responsibility to his fellow man. In his world it's every man (woman) for himself. That's the law of jungle, DNA, Evolution. If there is no ultimate morality and nothing of what we do here on this earth really matters in the long term why should anyone care what happens to their fellow human beings?

Art

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10327 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 3:17 PM
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Those of us who live a "miserly hermit-like existence" are little more than a foot-note of history, and perhaps not even that. We are the end of ourselves.

Art

You mean people like Thomas Aquinas and Henry David Thoreau?

cliff

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10329 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 3:26 PM
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Seattle Pioneer is an avowed atheist and feels no moral responsibility to his fellow man. In his world it's every man (woman) for himself. That's the law of jungle, DNA, Evolution. If there is no ultimate morality and nothing of what we do here on this earth really matters in the long term why should anyone care what happens to their fellow human beings?

Art

Not all atheists feel like that.

cliff
... caring atheist
... as is Rich (more or less)

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Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10330 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 3:32 PM
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{{This guy has a family and is caught in an economical Catch-22 of which you know nothing except that he didn't make the uncharitable choices YOU made, and you have the gall to make pompous comments on what YOU consider to be "amusing stupidity". }}


What uncharitable choices would those be?



c

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Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10331 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 3:36 PM
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{{You were talking spiritually and morally and Seattle Pioneer is an avowed atheist and feels no moral responsibility to his fellow man. In his world it's every man (woman) for himself.}}


Art you know better than that. You have heard SP talk about how he volunteers to help people, particularly the boy scout troups and his own family.



c

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10332 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 3:47 PM
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Not all atheists feel like that.

cliff
... caring atheist
... as is Rich (more or less)

---------------------------------------------------

Why?


Art

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 4:00 PM
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Art you know better than that. You have heard SP talk about how he volunteers to help people, particularly the boy scout troups and his own family. - cattleman
___________________________________________________________________


I don't know why Seattle Pioneer volunteers with the Boy Scouts. I don't know if he does it for himself or the kids.

If there is no God and no life after death and nothing has eternal consequences I see no reason to be moral. If the only rule is Darwinian evolution I can see no reason why everyone wouldn't ultimately do those things which ultimately improve their own evolutionary fitness.

Eventually our Sun will grown into a red giant and consume the four innermost planets and that will be that. The Milky Way Galaxy and the Andromeda Galaxy are hurtling towards each other at high speed, eventually they will circle each other in dance of death and the outmost shell of planets, including our Sun, will be consumed by the mega-black holes in the center of both galaxies.

But long before that happens the Earth will lose it's moon and the earth's wobble will become so erratic that life as we know it will become impossible. Not mention the gigantic super volcano underneath Yellowstone park growing by a few centimeters each year till it explodes and wipes out half the life in Western United States.

There is also a huge possibility that eventually death dealing asteroids or meteroites or comets will crash into the Earth and make life as we know it impossible. The Deccan flats were a huge conglomeration of volcanoes that covered thousands of square miles of lava.

What's my point? Everything is pointless if there is no God or life after death. Annihilation is inevitable. Everything in this life is temporary.

Art

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10334 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 4:24 PM
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Why?

Art

Why? Because it's ethical? Because it's moral? Because, I try to be a moral, ethical agent?

Are we to assume that if you were not Christian, that you would be murdering, looting, and raping? If that's the case, I am glad you are Christian. But I think you would be the same in any case.

If you are truly curious, you might want to peruse the Athiest Fools' FAQ
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=17109793

cliff

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10335 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 4:39 PM
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Are we to assume that if you were not Christian, that you would be murdering, looting, and raping? If that's the case, I am glad you are Christian. But I think you would be the same in any case.

If you are truly curious, you might want to peruse the Athiest Fools' FAQ
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=17109793 - cliff

___________________________________________________________________


I'm sorry, I don't recall mentioning Christianity. I'm a Spiritualist who's beliefs are based on near death experiences, death bed visions, and the holographic nature of the Universe.

Art

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10336 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 4:41 PM
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I'm sorry, I don't recall mentioning Christianity. I'm a Spiritualist who's beliefs are based on near death experiences, death bed visions, and the holographic nature of the Universe.

Art

So, why aren't you out mudering, looting, pillaging, and raping?

cliff

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 4:44 PM
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If you are truly curious, you might want to peruse the Athiest Fools' FAQ
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=17109793

cliff

__________________________________


Lol! I've been to the Atheist board. It's super scary. When I tried talking about NDE's, DBV's, and the holographic Universe they attacked in mass like a bunch of pirhanas. I have no interest in going back. I figure we'll find out who was right eventually. - Art

"I felt an understanding about life, what it was, is. As if it was a dream in itself. It's so very hard to explain this part. I'll try, but my words limit the fullness of it. I don't have the words here, but I understood that it really didn't matter what happened in the life experience, I knew/understood that it was intense, brief, but when we were in it, it seemed like forever. I understood that whatever happened in life, I was really ok, and so were the others here." - Michelle M's NDE, http://nderf.org/michelle_m's_nde.htm

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/27/2007 4:49 PM
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So, why aren't you out mudering, looting, pillaging, and raping?
- cliff

---------------------------------

My ancestors did. Some of them were Vikings. I think there might be Spiritual Consequences to some of our actions in this life. I just don't know and believe it's safer to error on the side of caution.

Since I believe that the Spiritual Universe is a place where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality the way one thinks might affect the initial transition to the other side. We might carry some of our baggage over with us. What this means is how we think might affect what kind of reality we conjure up for ourselves.

This is all speculation on my part and I don't know if it's true or not, and in fact, I'm deeply suspicious of free will and lean heavily towards fate and predestination. Some of the things I've read say that nothing that happens in this life has any bearing on what we might encounter in the next life, and this life is little more than an illusion.

Art

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10343 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 1:49 AM
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<<I understood perfectly where you were coming from and what you said. You were talking spiritually and morally and Seattle Pioneer is an avowed atheist and feels no moral responsibility to his fellow man. In his world it's every man (woman) for himself. That's the law of jungle, DNA, Evolution. >>



Well, you are exagerating there, Art.

I contribute both time and money to charitable causes such as the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. There are plenty of moral values I support, among them the concepts of living frugally and personal responsibility for people taking care of themselves.



Seattle Pioneer

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 1:58 AM
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Well, you are exagerating there, Art.

I contribute both time and money to charitable causes such as the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. There are plenty of moral values I support, among them the concepts of living frugally and personal responsibility for people taking care of themselves. - Seattle Pioneer

_____________________________________________________________________


Why bother? Your all ready 57 years old with no offspring (at least that's what your posts lead me to believe) so why bother? You've got what, maybe at the most another 23 good years and that's it. Then your body is either going to rot away or being cremated and your ashes scattered. And if you believe that consciousness is nothing but a by-product of the brain; when the body is gone so are you. That's it, lights out.

Why should you care what happens to anyone else? Why not just take your money and spend it on luxuries for yourself? Eat Maine Lobster every day? Giant scallops?

Perhaps your not as much of an atheist as what you claim? Maybe there is a spark of doubt in there that this may not be the end?

Art

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10345 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 8:30 AM
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<<Well, you are exagerating there, Art.

I contribute both time and money to charitable causes such as the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. There are plenty of moral values I support, among them the concepts of living frugally and personal responsibility for people taking care of themselves. - Seattle Pioneer
_____________________________________________________________________


Why bother? Your all ready 57 years old with no offspring (at least that's what your posts lead me to believe) so why bother? You've got what, maybe at the most another 23 good years and that's it. Then your body is either going to rot away or being cremated and your ashes scattered. And if you believe that consciousness is nothing but a by-product of the brain; when the body is gone so are you. That's it, lights out.
>>



Those are reasonable questions.


The short answer is, it's my pleasure to bother, and my responsibility as a citizen to bother.


And I get benefits thast accrue to me from volunteer activities --- it's cheap recreation, cheap opportunities to socialize. And Scouting encourages adults, not just children, to be good citizens, to maintain good character and personal fitness.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10346 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 9:02 AM
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Why is it that so many people seem to need a "promised" afterlife of bliss or misery to steer them through this one?

How ethical are conditional ethics? "Well, I'd like to steal this guy's wallet, but I want to go to heaven, so I won't" as against "Well, I'd sure like to have some easy money, but this guy worked hard for his roll and it is his money and I have no claim to it, so I'll just have to do without or go and make my own bankroll"?

It's almost like they think there is no reason that people would act nicely, if it wasn't for the promise of forty acres and a mule, or a land of milk and honey, or a few dozen virgins, or something.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10347 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 10:38 AM
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Why is it that so many people seem to need a "promised" afterlife of bliss or misery to steer them through this one?

How ethical are conditional ethics? "Well, I'd like to steal this guy's wallet, but I want to go to heaven, so I won't" as against "Well, I'd sure like to have some easy money, but this guy worked hard for his roll and it is his money and I have no claim to it, so I'll just have to do without or go and make my own bankroll"?

It's almost like they think there is no reason that people would act nicely, if it wasn't for the promise of forty acres and a mule, or a land of milk and honey, or a few dozen virgins, or something. - C.O. Jones

____________________________________________________________________

the profanity filter doesn't like your name.

I'm not sure I'll be able to say this well but I'll try. It's the difference between saying "don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to you" and "do unto others what you would want done to you." One of them is passive and one is active. One requires you to do nothing and the other requires you to actually do something positive. One says it's enough to just not hurt someone else and the other requires you to make an effort to actually get up off your duff and help someone.

It's where the motivation to do something positive comes from. It doesn't have to be about stealing or murder or rape but just about making an effort to do something positive. Going above and beyond the mundane to do something uplifting and positive.

My question to Seattle Pioneer was not about rape or murder or pillaging or stealing or being immoral but more about where his motivation to be such a positive self motivated individual comes from. He goes above and beyond the mundane and actually gets up off his butt and does something. I find that amazing. I was just wondering where his motivation comes from.

I've never been a bad person as far the really bad stuff goes but I've never gone above and beyond that and done something as positive as what Seattle Pioneer does.

I'm not a joiner and prefer to be left alone. I don't like the structure which is one of the reasons that I disliked work so much. I'm not sure if it was being told what to do or just being forced to be somewhere at a set time.

Art

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10348 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 10:58 AM
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Hmm… interesting.

I've never really given it much thought. I joke around with cashiers and such because it doesn't cost me anything and it brightens their day a bit. It never occurred to me that I was storing up treasures in Heaven or that I was wasting my time. I have "favorite" checkers at stores all over town and favorite waiters and waitresses, too. It literally doesn't cost me a damned thing to make them smile for a moment or two, and maybe that takes the edge off of someone else out there who gets pleasure from making, or trying to make, people miserable.

I have never understood that kind of thing. Seattle Pioneer went off a year ago about replacing his car and suggested he might buy a big, hulking, SUV because he doesn't drive all that much so mileage isn't a primary consideration, but mostly because it would piss off so many liberals. I just cannot get my brain around that idea. I might buy a Prius one day, but if I do it will be because out of all of autodom, the hybrid Toyota best fills my needs for the next three to five years or more. It would never occur to me that it might piss off Conservatives, or that I might somehow derive enjoyment from the situation if it did.

I operate this way not because someone has promised me eternal life or a dozen virgins after I die, and not because of the threat of eternal fire and torture, my being sent there by a kind and loving and judgmental God. I do it because the world, my world, seems to operate better if more of the people in it are happy. That's kind of how I decided on a political preference, too. I don't see how the world is made better by concentrating more of its treasures in fewer hands, or in giving people that treasure because they were lucky enough to pick the right parents.

We are commanded by Bill and Ted to "Be Excellent!" That seems a much better alternative to "Be An A$$ho1e!" whether there is or isn't some kind of reward after we're done here.

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 11:13 AM
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We are commanded by Bill and Ted to "Be Excellent!" That seems a much better alternative to "Be An A$$ho1e!" whether there is or isn't some kind of reward after we're done here. - C.O. Jones
-------------------------------------------------------------


The world we live in is very different from the world of dinosaurs. It's in the interest of the collective "we" to be a good person because it makes life run more smoothly. When someone steps out of those boundaries and tries to game the system it throws a wrench in the machinery and stops the whole process.

Maybe it takes all kinds of motivation to get people to tow the line. A little of both kinds. Whatever is needed to keep those people who don't have a lot of innate internal "goodness" to try and keep them from scamming and gaming everyone to get the upper hand. Those users and con artists in the world who always want to try and get something for nothing? Putting the fear of God into so to speak.

You can just imagine some tribe of cavemen living on the side of a cliff somewhere. Into that tribe is born one big hulking bruiser who is meaner and greedier and stronger than the rest. He could have all the women and take all the meat and fruit so something is needed to kind of keep him in check. Some mechanism to keep that one ogre from destroying the cohesion that keeps the tribe together. Like the old adage says, "A tribe divided against itself will not stand." (A house divided will not stand.) One nasty brutish person could destroy the whole cohesion that keeps the tribe together. Religion may be the mechanism that keeps the ogres of the world from causing the whole mechanism from falling apart.

Corruption and greed is what eventually caused the Soviet Union to fall apart. The experiment failed because it didn't take into account human nature. The nature to take advantage and increase one's economic well being. Religion is one of the mechanisms needed to keep those kind of people in check. Maybe not the only mechanism, but something to be sure.

Art

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10350 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 12:09 PM
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I understood perfectly where you were coming from and what you said. You were talking spiritually and morally and Seattle Pioneer is an avowed atheist and feels no moral responsibility to his fellow man. In his world it's every man (woman) for himself. That's the law of jungle, DNA, Evolution. If there is no ultimate morality and nothing of what we do here on this earth really matters in the long term why should anyone care what happens to their fellow human beings?
Art

-----

I'm in training for a new position so I'm only here for a few moments.

This;
"You were talking spiritually and morally and Seattle Pioneer is an avowed atheist and feels no moral responsibility to his fellow man." doesn't make sense to me. I'm atheist, but feel a strong responsibility toward humankind, well actually life in general. Call it morals, or ethics, whatever...
Being atheist does not relieve one of their humanity, and morals that are 'conditional', that is, tied to a reward/punishment ethic, are not moral at all. It's merely an authoritarian control mechanism. When we accept responsibility for our own actions, when we adopt an internal locus of control, then we are being truly moral. What is morality, ie; what defines right & wrong, is a-whole-nother topic, but morality does not come from some outside agent or a reward/punishment system of control.
As I said, I'm atheist and I care what happens to my fellow travelers.




ten

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10351 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 12:11 PM
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cliff
... caring atheist
... as is Rich (more or less)

-----

Arrghh... greeked! and in a lot less words.


Thanks cliff






ten

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10352 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 12:54 PM
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Interesting... c'man shows up and my posts start disappearing.

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 5:29 PM
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COJones100: I have never understood that kind of thing. Seattle Pioneer went off a year ago about replacing his car and suggested he might buy a big, hulking, SUV because he doesn't drive all that much so mileage isn't a primary consideration, but mostly because it would piss off so many liberals. I just cannot get my brain around that idea. I might buy a Prius one day, but if I do it will be because out of all of autodom, the hybrid Toyota best fills my needs for the next three to five years or more. It would never occur to me that it might piss off Conservatives, or that I might somehow derive enjoyment from the situation if it did.

Don't get a Prius. The new VW Jetta TDi (Turbo diesel) gets 55 mpg, far better than the Prius. I believe it will be available after January 1. (maybe even January 1, 2008.)

cliff

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10358 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 5:29 PM
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I have never understood that kind of thing. Seattle Pioneer went off a year ago about replacing his car and suggested he might buy a big, hulking, SUV because he doesn't drive all that much so mileage isn't a primary consideration, but mostly because it would piss off so many liberals.

If you knew anything at all about SP, you would know that it was a joke, or a form of hyperbole (sort of like those few liberals that threatened to move out of the USA if GWB was elected). I guess different senses of humor are also a form of Arts hallowed separation concept :-)

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 5:39 PM
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If you knew anything at all about SP, you would know that it was a joke, or a form of hyperbole (sort of like those few liberals that threatened to move out of the USA if GWB was elected). I guess different senses of humor are also a form of Arts hallowed separation concept :-) - mark
---------------------------------

I like saying the word hyperbole. I don't find much cause to use it but it's a fun word to say.

I'm watching Star Trek Voyager right now and there's an alien on the Ship who's name is "Arturis." cool name! I might adopt it as one of my aliases. Once I was in church and we were reading something in the Old Testament and they were talking about King Artaxerxes. That's another cool name. I figure they are all forms of Arthur.

Arturis

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10363 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/28/2007 8:40 PM
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<<I have never understood that kind of thing. Seattle Pioneer went off a year ago about replacing his car and suggested he might buy a big, hulking, SUV because he doesn't drive all that much so mileage isn't a primary consideration, but mostly because it would piss off so many liberals. I just cannot get my brain around that idea. >>



Heh, heh! My '87 Plymout Reliant bit the dust a year ago, and I switched that car's 20 MPG for the 13 MPG of the '93 Chevy Astro AWD with which I replaced it.

For six months or so I finally had a vehicle that worked well for my repair business --- the Reliant was always crammed, although I used it that way for 12-13 years.

Also, I finally have a vehicle that's sized to tow my boat. The Reliant was undersized for that job too.


And when I go out car camping, I can easily overnight in the Astro, while that was a pain in the Reliant.



So there were several very practical reasons for buying a fuel inefficient vehicle. Pixxing off my Liberals friends was just the cherry on top.


But I couldn't bring myself to spend $30,000 on a new guzzler when I could get what I wanted for $1500.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10368 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 9:22 AM
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Thank you, Cliff, but you cannot know where or how I drive, what size of a car I need, etc. Still, it was nice of you to miss the point.

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 9:24 AM
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If you knew anything at all about SP, you would know that it was a joke, or a form of hyperbole.

I considered that, and decided that it didn't make any difference. Just as I couldn't see doing it, I can't see that saying it is in any way funny. That's okay—there are people who enjoy Jerry Lewis and Carrot Top. But I don't see it as a way to live my life or try to spread "humor".

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 12:29 PM
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"Religion is one of the mechanisms needed to keep those kind of people in check."

You just answered your own question when you say that "religion is needed to keep those kind of people in check".

It may be that religion is a tool that helps keep immoral or amoral people in check.

But truly moral people choose to care about others, to help others and to make life better for others and themselves. They do that with or without a godbelief, and with or without a belief in heaven or hell.

I would argue that the atheist who chooses to care about and for others is truly moral, and the religionist who does good deeds because of promise of heaven or fear of hell is not truly moral.

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 12:42 PM
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I would argue that the atheist who chooses to care about and for others is truly moral, and the religionist who does good deeds because of promise of heaven or fear of hell is not truly moral. - jgc123
_____________________________________________________

Atheist versus believer, etc. are all just labels that we attach to people. I'm not sure they are able to capture the true essence of who we are. Belief is not something that can be bottled or forced or chosen, and I doubt that any one person is all one or the other. More than likely everyone is a mixture of both.

But the truth of the matter is that it probably doesn't matter what we believe. From everything I've read, belief is irrelevant, agreement is irrelevant, and acceptance is irrelevant.

We'll find out the truth when we get there. Like my mom used to tell me when I was a kid, "you just got to live in this world kiddo!"

Art

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 12:49 PM
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{{I would argue that the atheist who chooses to care about and for others is truly moral, and the religionist who does good deeds because of promise of heaven or fear of hell is not truly moral.}}


It seems like everyone thinks that they or the group they belong to is better or more moral than others or other groups.


c

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10373 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 12:50 PM
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<<"Religion is one of the mechanisms needed to keep those kind of people in check."

You just answered your own question when you say that "religion is needed to keep those kind of people in check".

It may be that religion is a tool that helps keep immoral or amoral people in check.
>>



I suggest that religion has often been a powerful and reliable way of transmitting cultural values from generation to generation. Public schools --- even colleges and universities, often use indoctrination very commonly rather than true education.


For that reason, schools are increasingly becoming a state sponsored religion these days, since society probably can't do without means of indoctrinating people into the prevailing cultural values ---and it gives elites immensely powerful ways of controlling the masses.


So it's really laughable to talk about excluding prayer from public schools and then approve defacto worship of ML King, Earth Day and numerous other values receiving the stamp of approval of the powers that be. Keeping prayer out of public schools these days is a way to reduce diversity by excluding the religious values that may conflict with the elite values with which schools are busily indoctrinating children.



Seattle Pioneer

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 12:51 PM
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'Like my mom used to tell me when I was a kid, "you just got to live in this world kiddo!"'

Your mom's saying nicely matches my viewpoint of life as an atheist.

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 12:55 PM
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"It seems like everyone thinks that they or the group they belong to is better or more moral than others or other groups.

c"

It seems like I took you out of the peebox only to confirm you still compose vague generalities that don't even attempt to address what the other person actually said.

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 1:18 PM
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{{It seems like I took you out of the peebox only to confirm you still compose vague generalities that don't even attempt to address what the other person actually said.}}


You were saying that because you are atheist, you think that you are a more moral person than a religious person. It is typical tribalism where people think that there group is better simply for being part of that group. In this case you think atheists are truly moral and religious people are not moral.


c

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 2:30 PM
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c: "You were saying that because you are atheist, you think that you are a more moral person than a religious person..."

Wrong.

In the first place, I was responding to the post in which Ari specifically said, ""Religion is one of the mechanisms needed to keep THOSE KIND OF PEOPLE (capitalized to aid you in comprehending the context of my earlier reply to Ari) in check."

And my reply TO ARI's claim was a direct response to his description of "those kind of people who needed to be kept in check" by religion.

My guess is that there are millions of people, religious and non-religious, who would do the right thing with or without religion, and who do not need "religion to keep them in check". That's why I said, "with or without religion" in the part of my post that you did not recopy.

For example, I bet Ari would continue to do the right thing with or without religion if he thought it through and decided that god arguments were fallacious. He would not be one of the people he described, "those kind of people who need religion to be kept in check".

It was my position, and still is, that those who do the right thing without regard for the promise of heaven or fear of hell, are arguably more moral than those "who need religion to keep them in check".

My guess, based on your posts through the years, is that you understood my post all along and simply prefer trolling over honest discourse.

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 2:37 PM
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Your mom's saying nicely matches my viewpoint of life as an atheist. - jgc123
_____________________________________________________________________


Okay that's fine, but just in case I'm right I'm going to give you a "heads up" on what to do if you find yourself floating outside your body one day and you think it's past repair.

#1. Don't be afraid.

#2. The way a person thinks on the other side affects what they experience - so think good thoughts.

#3. Head for the Light. Everything good is in that light. Once you make it to the light you'll become enlightened and know what to do next.

#4. There will probably be some relatives, friends, or beings of light there to assist you in your transition.


I love little Daisy Dryden's (age 11) death bed vision description of what she saw before passing on.......

"Two days before she left us, the Sunday School Superintendent came to see her. She talked very freely about going, and sent a message by him to the Sunday School. When he was about to leave, he said, "Well, Daisy, you will soon be over the 'dark river.` After he had gone, she asked her father what he meant by the "dark river." He tried to explain it, but she said, "It is all a mistake; there is no river; there is no curtain; there is not even a line that separates this life from the other life." And she stretched out her little hands from the bed, and with a gesture said, "It is here and it is there; I know it is so, for I can see you all, and I see them there at the same time."

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/books/barrett/dbv/chapter3.htm

Sir Arthur

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 2:43 PM
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For example, I bet Ari would continue to do the right thing with or without religion if he thought it through and decided that god arguments were fallacious. He would not be one of the people he described, "those kind of people who need religion to be kept in check".
- jgc123

_______________________________________________________________________


Sometimes I try and imagine what I'd do if I found a large suitcase stuffed with money. You read about such things. To be completely candid and honest I think I might try and hide it and slowly spend the money.

I think I'd be so tempted and overwhelmed that my greed would overcome my moral compass. I'm not really that good of a person. I very reluctantly give money to charities. Perhaps that's why I see the need for the Federal Goverment to be involved in some sort of welfare programs. It they had to rely on people like me I think they might be horrendously underfunded.

I'm generous with food and feeding people and stuff like that, but not with cold hard cash. I'm terribly tightfisted and only reluctantly part with it.

So if I ever find a suitcase stuffed with money I'm going to be tightlipped about it and not say anything to anyone and keep the money. Yeah, that's what I'm going to do.

Art

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 2:48 PM
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"So if I ever find a suitcase stuffed with money I'm going to be tightlipped about it and not say anything to anyone and keep the money. Yeah, that's what I'm going to do.

Art"

That sounds to me like a self-description by a generally good person who happens to also be quite honest. Very few of us are that honest about who we are and what we are.

That's one reason I like you so much as a poster even if I think the 'holographic universe' posts are a bit nutty.

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 3:05 PM
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That's one reason I like you so much as a poster even if I think the 'holographic universe' posts are a bit nutty. - jgc123
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“If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet.” - Niels Bohr quote

Thank you! Do you know what Sir Arthur Eddington said about the atom? "they are mostly ghostly empty space. 99.9999999% empty space to be exact. If an atom were the size of a football stadium the nucleus in the middle would be the size of a grain of rice and the electrons little more than a wispy swirling cloud around the outside."

Not to mention the sub atomic particles are hardly like anything we've come to know or understand as matter being more like an eddy in a river or a stream than a rock or a BB. Sub atomic particles can appear and disappear, sometimes appearing as waves and sometimes as particles, able to communicate with each other instantaneously over vast distances, able to pass right through solid matter, and make quantum jumps between orbitals.

Matter is not made of matter and our Universe is more bizarre and weird than we can even begin to imagine.

Art

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Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10382 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 5:39 PM
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It was my position, and still is, that those who do the right thing without regard for the promise of heaven or fear of hell, are arguably more moral than those "who need religion to keep them in check".
---------

Agreed. It is those man made religions, mostly western, that cause the dutiful followers to operate out of fear & guilt.

It's all about the church retaining control of the followers.

Ok, back to the topic.

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10383 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 7:30 PM
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"So if I ever find a suitcase stuffed with money I'm going to be tightlipped about it and not say anything to anyone and keep the money. Yeah, that's what I'm going to do.

Art"

Art, let follow up on this part of your post because it is interesting and I am now drinking Vodka flavored with lime juice, ice cubes and Seltzer water.

I think it was Aristophanes or Hippocrates or some other pre-Socratic Greek who pondered over whether a river was really the same river from instant to instant when in fact water and particles were constantly flowing downstream and changing the composition and content of that which was called, "the river".

By drunken analogy, people are a constantly growing and changing collection of atomic particles that change throughout their lives just like "the river".

Now fast forward to my reply to your statement quoted above. I THINK that if I had found a suitcase full of money 30 years ago, at the age of 20, I also would have been tempted to take the money, hide it, spend it to my advantage, and rationalize my actions.

I THINK that if I found such a suitcase full of money tomorrow, I would take it down to the local police station and try to find the owner.

Like the river in the analogy, I have changed with time, sometimes for the better, and sometimes for the worse. In this instance, I THINK I am changing for the better insofar as my ego is less important to me than it was 30 years ago, and I know from past experience that I sleep better when I act consistently with my 'internal moral compass' and that I sleep poorly when I do not. I am no Ayn Rand nut, but enlightened self interest is part of my psyche, as is the desire to do the right thing just so I can sleep better at night.

We are constantly changing not only until the day we die, but forever thereafter to the extent that our atomic particles continue to change and become parts of other objects and/or living creatures.

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/29/2007 7:48 PM
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We are constantly changing not only until the day we die, but forever thereafter to the extent that our atomic particles continue to change and become parts of other objects and/or living creatures. - jgc123
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I was thinking a few weeks back how much like a song or musical piece our lives were. Like notes or something. There is some kind of continuity that runs through the whole song. If there is a big change it sounds almost schizophrenic or something, or perhaps bi-polar. I like waltzes that stay waltzes and don't turn into swing music halfway through the song.

I'm fairly certain that something of who we are survives the death of our physical body, but as to what that something is, I don't have a clue. My belief comes from an aggregate or matrix or mandala of evidence. The anthropic principle of the universe being designed for life, quantum physics and the fact that matter is made of pure energy, the holographic nature of the Universe, near death experiences, death bed visions, and lastly some dazzle shots by mediums that are completely unexplainable. It's not any one thing, but the total aggregate that leads me to believe that this ain't the main show.

"I felt an understanding about life, what it was, is. As if it was a dream in itself. It's so very hard to explain this part. I'll try, but my words limit the fullness of it. I don't have the words here, but I understood that it really didn't matter what happened in the life experience, I knew/understood that it was intense, brief, but when we were in it, it seemed like forever. I understood that whatever happened in life, I was really ok, and so were the others here." - excerpt from Michelle M's NDE, http://nderf.org/michelle_m's_nde.htm

Art

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10388 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 9:49 AM
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It seems like everyone thinks that they or the group they belong to is better or more moral than others or other groups.

Yeah, you ought to read some of Cattleman's posts, when he gets into Seattle Pioneer Lap Dog mode. Especially the older posts when he couldn't spell the correctly.

Of course everybody does this. Who among us would admit to believing in a failed philosophy of… anything? It costs very little to change your mind when presented by better evidence but perhaps the more natural response is to question and attack the new evidence, or if you are Republican, the person presenting it. But if the new stuff is proved better, it's adopted and we move on.

You believe the earth is flat. Someone shows you a globe. You either change your mind or risk looking like a fool to anyone else who has seen a globe. Some people have paid a pretty good price for this, bumping up against the frontiers of the Church.

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10389 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 10:04 AM
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May I add a fifth to your ToDo list, please?

Try to take note of the things that are actually happening in the space around you. See if you can read any messages, for instance, written above instruments and machines in the room with you.

In studies of this near-death phenomenon, researchers have placed signs in the operating room around patients that the patients could not see while strapped to the operating table. Just random words, thoughts, sayings. In at least one case, there was an automated sign like those favored in small businesses where dots light up in sequence to make words scroll across the screen. We would expect the motion and the message would be remembered, or at least commented upon, but so far nobody has said anything.

In no case has anyone reported seeing the signs, thinking them odd, or of course remembering what they said. If they were really floating above themselves and the scene, they would have been able to see the messages and they would have been such non sequiturs that they would have remembered them.

So take note, and come back. You'll be famous.

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 12:32 PM
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In studies of this near-death phenomenon, researchers have placed signs in the operating room around patients that the patients could not see while strapped to the operating table. Just random words, thoughts, sayings. In at least one case, there was an automated sign like those favored in small businesses where dots light up in sequence to make words scroll across the screen. We would expect the motion and the message would be remembered, or at least commented upon, but so far nobody has said anything. - c.o.jones
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After you cross over whatever you focus your attention on, that's what you experience. With no eyeballs, no ears, no nose, mouth, skin, etc. It's a different way of experiencing the universe. It's a holographic universe thing.

"I was pure intellect, absorbing information and knowledge through "sensors" or means that I have no concept of. From this vantage point,I had to merely think of a place and time and I was there, experiencing everything about the place and time and people present." - from Mark Horton's NDE, http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

- Art

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10392 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 12:44 PM
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After you cross over whatever you focus your attention on, that's what you experience. With no eyeballs, no ears, no nose, mouth, skin, etc. It's a different way of experiencing the universe. It's a holographic universe thing.

Actually, it's just your brain trying to make sense of what's happening and keep you calm as it shuts down.

If "you" were really hovering above the surgeons frantically trying to save your life, you would notice a sign promising you Free Cheetos For Life or telling jokes or flashing "Apples! Apples! Apples!" at you. No one actually sees these things, because nobody actually floats above themselves on their way to The Light.

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Author: alan81 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10393 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 1:03 PM
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Given we all have similar hardware, not surprising at all that we all "blue screen" in a similar fashion.
--Alan

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 1:42 PM
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If "you" were really hovering above the surgeons frantically trying to save your life, you would notice a sign promising you Free Cheetos For Life or telling jokes or flashing "Apples! Apples! Apples!" at you. No one actually sees these things, because nobody actually floats above themselves on their way to The Light. - c.o.jones
------------------------------------------------------

We'll see who was right after it's all said and done. If I'm right I promise I won't say "I told you so!" more than three or four trillion times.

Art

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 1:46 PM
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Actually, it's just your brain trying to make sense of what's happening and keep you calm as it shuts down. - c.o.jones
----------------------------------------

Oh boy! There's a whole bunch of new NDE's posted down at the bottom of the NDERF.org website. Good stuff!

http://nderf.org/

Art

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Author: vickifool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10396 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 2:26 PM
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I THINK that if I found such a suitcase full of money tomorrow, I would take it down to the local police station and try to find the owner.


My police are way too busy to worry about things like this. They can't even investigate all the murders in town. Why bother them with a suitcase full of money?

Vickifool

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 2:38 PM
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Oh boy! There's a whole bunch of new NDE's posted down at the bottom of the NDERF.org website. Good stuff!

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Are any of these so-called NDE's reported by fighter pilots training in centrifuges? When the blood runs out of your brain, it seems the last place it leaves is the back near the stem, where vision happens. As they are whirled around and around and experience g-related loss of consciousness, many report feelings of well-being, calm, loving lights, tunnels and even seeing loved ones.

But I'm probably the one that's wrong. After all, you've read a web site and a book.

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 2:40 PM
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My police are way too busy to worry about things like this. They can't even investigate all the murders in town. Why bother them with a suitcase full of money? - Vickifool
------------------------------------------

Yeah yeah, that's how I feel! I'd just slowly integrate the money into the economy, perhaps on trips to Key West and the Carribean so they could enjoy the economic benefits of the money too. I've always wanted to go to Hawaii. <grin!> Maybe a cruise or two? Club Med? Not enough to arouse suspicion but enough to slowly deplete the money before I die so I wouldn't leave that burden to my heirs.

Artie

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 2:47 PM
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As they are whirled around and around and experience g-related loss of consciousness, many report feelings of well-being, calm, loving lights, tunnels and even seeing loved ones. But I'm probably the one that's wrong. After all, you've read a web site and a book. - c.o.jones
_____________________________________________________________________

LOL! Not "A" book but many many books, maybe more than fifty, written by people with PhD's and MD degrees, and many many many websites. I've probably read over a thousand NDE's.

No loved ones. They report some, but not all aspects of NDE's, which only makes sense because they were in the first stages of dying. Same with some drugs. I figure the drugs block whatever part of the brain is tied into the holographic universe. I don't believe the brain generates consciousness but instead is a transmitter and reciever of information. Like a TV set.

article by Dr. Pimm Van Lommel

http://www.iands.org/research/important_studies/dr._pim_van_lommel:_continuity_of_consciousness.html

I find it comforting that we quickly leave our bodies when we die and we don't have to stay in them till they are half rotten.

I'm about 97.75% confident that something of who we are survives the death of the body; but I promise I'll only say "I told you so" a few million times after we cross over. <grin!>

Art

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10402 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 3:07 PM
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…but I promise I'll only say "I told you so" a few million times after we cross over.

The question now, apparently, is how many times you'll say that before you cross over.

Look, you can believe whatever cornball theory you want. I have an answer that works for me and it doesn't require Faith or Magic—and it explains why nobody can ever seem to read the signs.

Read a book about the Kennedy assassination and you'll be convinced that the Cubans did—the anti-Castro Cubans. Read two and you'll be convinced it was the anti-Castro Cubans, the pro-Castro Cubans and the CIA, read "fifty" books, from authors who have never even been to Dallas and from authors with all manner of acronyms and alaphabets behind their names, and all you'll get is poorer and older. You quickly start to pick up little pieces that disagree with one another. Don't confuse enthusiasm with truth, feelings with facts.

You've found a niche. You have found a place in the world where you know more about something than anyone else you know. You're at a point where you have nobody to ask and you think you've figured it out. That's great, but reading three books that say the same thing is little different from reading the same book, three times.

You go away and come back with a reason nobody recognizes photos of their loved ones, nobody remembers the signs flashing colors or words and nobody remembers the music playing and we can talk. Otherwise, even if you're right, you look like a kook.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10404 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 3:14 PM
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Sounds like foolish decision making to me. There is no evidence that they don't have money to buy health insurance ---they simply have other priorities.
Yup...no one said they have to buy that house for example. You would think that at least they would get health insurance for their kid. He's probably lower cost/lower risk than the adults.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10405 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 3:20 PM
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That's the law of jungle, DNA, Evolution. If there is no ultimate morality and nothing of what we do here on this earth really matters in the long term why should anyone care what happens to their fellow human beings?
Poppycock. I have seen no evidence at all that being an agnostic or an athesist makes you an unmoral, cut-throat person. Or that being a religious person makes you behave well.

One can be moral and ethical (or indeed the exact opposite) whether one is a deeply religious person, an atheist, or anything in between. One has only to look around to see examples of this on both sides of the equation.

Religion is a fine thing. But it's not a pre-requisite for one to be compassionate and giving to othrs.

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 3:56 PM
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Poppycock. I have seen no evidence at all that being an agnostic or an athesist makes you an unmoral, cut-throat person. Or that being a religious person makes you behave well.

One can be moral and ethical (or indeed the exact opposite) whether one is a deeply religious person, an atheist, or anything in between. One has only to look around to see examples of this on both sides of the equation.

Religion is a fine thing. But it's not a pre-requisite for one to be compassionate and giving to othrs. - gingko

__________________________________________________________________


We are marinated in religion in this country. Whether you want to be or not. It's very subtle but it's inescapable. It's imprinted holistically and subconsciously. It's in our laws, TV, radio, road signs, malls, etc., etc., etc. As one just goes about their daily life little bits and pieces are transposed into the brain which puts them all together and it affects the way we live our lives. You don't have to go to Church to be inculcated with religion in this country.


in·cul·cate /ɪnˈkʌlkeɪt, ˈɪnkʌlˌkeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-kuhl-keyt, in-kuhl-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing. 1. to implant by repeated statement or admonition; teach persistently and earnestly (usually fol. by upon or in): to inculcate virtue in the young.
2. to cause or influence (someone) to accept an idea or feeling (usually fol. by with): Socrates inculcated his pupils with the love of truth.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inculcated

art

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10408 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 5:51 PM
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tenworlds:
I'm in training for a new position so I'm only here for a few moments.

This;
"You were talking spiritually and morally and Seattle Pioneer is an avowed atheist and feels no moral responsibility to his fellow man." doesn't make sense to me. I'm atheist, but feel a strong responsibility toward humankind, well actually life in general. Call it morals, or ethics, whatever...
Being atheist does not relieve one of their humanity, and morals that are 'conditional', that is, tied to a reward/punishment ethic, are not moral at all. It's merely an authoritarian control mechanism. When we accept responsibility for our own actions, when we adopt an internal locus of control, then we are being truly moral. What is morality, ie; what defines right & wrong, is a-whole-nother topic, but morality does not come from some outside agent or a reward/punishment system of control.
As I said, I'm atheist and I care what happens to my fellow travelers.


I understand this completely. Before my conversion to Evangelical Christianity, you probably could have considered me an agnostic. Although, I bounced back and forth between "new age" spiritualism to agnosticism.

But regardless, of where I've been in my life spiritually, I've always had the desire to help people, without regard to personal gain or reward. That is, except for the extreme satisfaction I get from helping, volunteering or giving to others. I especially enjoy helping/teaching others to learn to be self-sufficient themselves.

Hee hee. Ask my 3 kids. By the time they were 13, they could run our household inside and outside; buy groceries; balance a checkbook; pretty much fend for themselves and act more adultlike than most Americans. There favorite uncle would tell them that after WWIII, all that would be left would be cochroaches and Reed's (my last name).

Anyway, I understand complete why SP would help with the boy scouts. THere is nothing more satisfying than mentoring a young mind to learn to be ethical, self-reliant and grow up to be a productive citizen. Nothing I've ever done compares to that mission, regardless of your faith of choice. And the Boy Scouts do an excelent job of that for the most part.

Regards,
decath

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10409 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 6:01 PM
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Not enough to arouse suspicion but enough to slowly deplete the money before I die so I wouldn't leave that burden to my heirs.

Artie


Art,

If I was your heir, I sure wouldn't want to have the burden of dealing with all that cash. :) By planning to spend your entire cash windfall before your heirs can inherit it shows me that you are a very thoughtful guy.

Mike

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 6:04 PM
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The plural of anecdote is not data.
-----------

Line of the day.

I am so going to use this at just the right moment when I'm having to present some research or another.

Thanks!

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10411 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 9:09 PM
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Art: Lol! I've been to the Atheist board. It's super scary. When I tried talking about NDE's, DBV's, and the holographic Universe they attacked in mass like a bunch of pirhanas. I have no interest in going back. I figure we'll find out who was right eventually. - Art

Art, this is a bit late, but I saw your posts there. I don't think you were being attacked personally, but your holographic universe/NDE posts. I'm sure you were hurt by the reception, but most everyone there likes you, but the HU/NDE is just too east to mock.

cliff

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Author: GusSmed Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10412 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 9:15 PM
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I'm sure you were hurt by the reception, but most everyone there likes you, but the HU/NDE is just too east to mock.

It's become abundantly clear that Art's pretty tied up emotionally with the idea of this stuff being true, even though it's pretty transparent nonsense to everyone else. And I think almost everyone is pretty much content to leave him alone and let him believe what he wants to believe, if he'd just stop trying to inject it into every unrelated topic he can find.

- Gus

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10413 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 9:39 PM
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I'm sure you were hurt by the reception, but most everyone there likes you, but the HU/NDE is just too east to mock.

cliff

OCD: too easy to mock.

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 11:11 PM
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I'm sure you were hurt by the reception, but most everyone there likes you, but the HU/NDE is just too east to mock. - cliff
--------------------------------------------------------------

He who laughs last laughs hardest.

Art

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Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 11:13 PM
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even though it's pretty transparent nonsense to everyone else.... if he'd just stop trying to inject it into every unrelated topic he can find. - GusSmed
-------------------------------

We'll see. And it's got everything to do with everything that happens in this life.

Your comments just let me know that you don't understand it. One day you will.



Art

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10416 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 11:56 PM
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Line of the day.

I am so going to use this at just the right moment when I'm having to present some research or another.

Thanks!


I wish I could claim it, Joseph, but it isn't mine. I think I may have first heard it from GoofyHoofy. Then again, it could just as easily have been Charlie, here. You're right, though, I love it, too.

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10417 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 11/30/2007 11:59 PM
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He who laughs last laughs hardest.

Uh, no. He who laughs last, laughs best.

What in Hell is special about laughing hardest?

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Author: GusSmed Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10418 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 12/1/2007 10:37 AM
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Your comments just let me know that you don't understand it. One day you will.

It's always a tad ironic when someone defending complete nonsense based on wishful thinking and inappropriate analogies assumes a posture of smug superiority. You're hardly the first person to pretend that "you just don't understand" is a substitute for evidence and reason when defending mysticism.

As I said before, Art, I really don't care what you believe. What's annoying is your constant preaching about it, and your willingness to discard any evidence that directly contradicts what you believe when you do push the conversation in that direction. The way you repeatedly complain about the fact that your tissue-paper theories got shredded at AF is typical. It's not that they're "piranha." It's that they don't brook much nonsense when it comes to ideas, and you're deeply emotionally attached to these beliefs.

I'm familiar with the "duality" concept you're so fond of, and in some circumstances, it certainly is applicable, if not fraught with the meaning you think it has. The idea of tension between conflicting concepts is something that's been kicking around in philosophy for a long, long time. But you're a guy with a hammer who thinks everything is a nail.

And frankly, the "duality" stuff has no bearing whatsoever on your other two hobbyhorses, near-death experiences or the "holographic universe" hoo-hah. The former is a fairly well documented syndrome connected to anoxia, and the latter is a lot of nonsense invented by a guy who didn't really understand the concepts he was twisting to justify his own beliefs. Talbot was a Velikovsky for the 90's.

- Gus

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Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10419 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 12/1/2007 11:47 AM
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just too east to mock.
-------------

Unbelievable, another line of the day.

I'm going to work this into a conversation later with a fellow I know who goes on about a peculiar theory he has.

Thanks, this short response is almost too perfect.

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Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10420 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 12/1/2007 11:50 AM
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OCD: too easy to mock.
------------

Well, what the heck, I'm using it anyway.

Cliff, you yourself ought try it out in a perfect spot. I bet it stops the person at least for a minute to process.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10421 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 12/1/2007 3:18 PM
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I think it was Aristophanes or Hippocrates or some other pre-Socratic Greek who pondered over whether a river was really the same river from instant to instant when in fact water and particles were constantly flowing downstream and changing the composition and content of that which was called, "the river".


Heraclitus.

"you can never step in the same river twice ..the river changes, and so do you"


=b
....... too much Vodka?

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10422 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 12/1/2007 4:00 PM
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Gus: people believe what they believe...

Just as you think it is silly, Art does not. Neither of you is going to convince the other, and huffing about it is not likely to get Art to stop. Mysticism by definition cannot be proved. And his NDE stuff is no sillier than any other religious or spiritual belief. If it bothers you, p-box him.

Personally I like reading Art's posts. I don't tend to read all the back-up for the NDE stuff, but I appreciate it informs his point of view. It's not my particular viewpoint, but I can listen to him without feeling offended.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10423 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 12/1/2007 4:26 PM
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The plural of anecdote is not data.

Are any of these so-called NDE's reported by fighter pilots training in centrifuges? When the blood runs out of your brain, it seems the last place it leaves is the back near the stem, where vision happens. As they are whirled around and around and experience g-related loss of consciousness, many report feelings of well-being, calm, loving lights, tunnels and even seeing loved ones.


>delurking<

there's a nice bit of logic to the NDE story ... i told someone once that i'd had an NDE and it was Nothing like the 'stories' (no damn Light (no Damn cradle)) ..they (not Art, btw) said, "then you didn't REALLY have an NDE." if you 'die' but have the wrong experiences, you didn't really 'die' / if you don't 'die' but do have the same experience .. i don't know what they say.

seems OBVIOUS that if people have similar experiences, the best guess would be physiology ..with a bit of culture maybe

[ i've also done past-life regression therapy, and studied palmistry, astrology & Tarot -- no woo-woo BS .. all that's bunk. but sometimes useful metaphors
a similar sort of logic in the past-life stuff : i said to the hypnotist, "we're just stimulating something in the brain to produce something like a dream ..eg, i've always been fascinated by Japan, so i -imagine- a past life in Japan." "NO. in a past life, you were Japanese, therefore you're interested in Japan" interesting stuff, but Bunk]


=b
....... Tarot ,IMO, most interesting

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Author: alan81 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10424 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 12/1/2007 9:10 PM
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people believe what they believe...
I think it important to remember that you put the word "believe" in there.
I find the NDE argument very similar to other arguments used to "prove" some sort of religious point.
Person says... I'm going to hit you in the head with this baseball bat. If it hurts, that PROVES there is life after death... or there is a god. You get hit in the head, and go "son of gun, that hurt"... there must be life after death. This is obviously an extreme example, but really no more silly than the NDE example.
--Alan

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Author: GusSmed Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10425 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 12/1/2007 10:06 PM
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people believe what they believe...

So? That doesn't make it any more real.

I can listen to him without feeling offended

90% of the time I'm not offended, just annoyed, because it's almost always completely off the topic under discussion, and just takes up space. 99% of the time, I don't comment on it.

It's when he gets smug about it that it gets annoying.

- Gus

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10426 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 12/2/2007 6:42 PM
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You go away and come back with a reason nobody recognizes photos of their loved ones, nobody remembers the signs flashing colors or words and nobody remembers the music playing and we can talk.

Even though I don't agree with Art's theory, the lack of recognition is not sufficient to disprove his theory because the theory is that the soul (or essence of the person) is "somewhere else" and not necessarily floating above the body or even in the same plane of existence as the body - and that goes even if that soul can "see" the particular body in question.

Otherwise, even if you're right, you look like a kook.

We all look like kooks in one way or another :-)

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10427 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 12/2/2007 8:26 PM
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…the soul (or essence of the person) is "somewhere else" and not necessarily floating above the body or even in the same plane of existence as the body—and that goes even if that soul can "see" the particular body in question.

Actually, it's the whole thing in a (pardon the pun) nut shell.

I'm getting my toenails removed. Something goes horribly wrong. I experience a blinding light, an amazing sense of calm, I'm hovering above the scene, looking down while doctors go to heroic efforts to save me. I cruise this long tunnel and when I pop out the other end, there's Uncle Wally and Grampa. Uncle Wally says "Hey, got that twenty bucks you owe me?" and then .::Lightning-and-Thunder!::. the Lord sayeth unto me, "It is not yet your time. Goeth thou back unto the surgery room and returneth not until thou haseth Uncle Wally's Twenty" and I wake up feeling all warm and gooey, secure in the knowledge that there is a God, that He loves me and that I'm going to Heaven after all—if humbled by the new knowledge that Art was right.

The problem is that if I was hovering above the scene, I would have been able to see the lights, read the signs, etc. Nobody comes back remembering these things. If they were there, they would have seen themselves. Check. They would have seen the operating room. Check. They would have seen the machinery and equipment. Check. They would have seen the signs and colors and lights and so on. ErrrrrrnTTT! Thanks for playing, here's a copy of our home game….

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10428 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 12/3/2007 12:21 PM
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I'm getting my toenails removed. Something goes horribly wrong. I experience a blinding light, an amazing sense of calm, I'm hovering above the scene, looking down while doctors go to heroic efforts to save me. I cruise this long tunnel and when I pop out the other end, there's Uncle Wally and Grampa. Uncle Wally says "Hey, got that twenty bucks you owe me?" and then .::Lightning-and-Thunder!::. the Lord sayeth unto me, "It is not yet your time. Goeth thou back unto the surgery room and returneth not until thou haseth Uncle Wally's Twenty" and I wake up feeling all warm and gooey, secure in the knowledge that there is a God, that He loves me and that I'm going to Heaven after all—if humbled by the new knowledge that Art was right.

The problem is that if I was hovering above the scene, I would have been able to see the lights, read the signs, etc. Nobody comes back remembering these things. If they were there, they would have seen themselves. Check. They would have seen the operating room. Check. They would have seen the machinery and equipment. Check. They would have seen the signs and colors and lights and so on. ErrrrrrnTTT! Thanks for playing, here's a copy of our home game….

-----

This board is beginning to sound like Art Bell's program.
(Coast to coast?)





ten

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Author: vickifool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10449 of 59164
Subject: Re: Got time for another medical care articel or Date: 12/4/2007 8:05 PM
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I'm getting my toenails removed.

Are you a ballerina? They often get their big toe-nails removed.

Vickifool

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