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Author: KJL3220 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 4337  
Subject: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/9/2001 1:09 PM
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http://www.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/amway.html


This by far is the most comprehensive site involving Amway/Quixtar. It details all of the things that you may not be presented with when someone prospects you. Although I think it is mostly even-handed (it has positive sections as well as a section on how Amway could be improved), I would say that anyone wanting to get involved after reading this might be a little loopy. The feedback section is the best part, you get to see how IBO's really act when confronted with facts.


And no, I'm not getting paid by Procter & Gamble. I don't even use Tide.
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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1658 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/12/2001 3:21 PM
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Mr.KJ:

I am a proud Amway/Quixtar IBO. Also, I have seen most any critical and postive information or website dealing about Amway and Quixtar. As an entrepreneur, I made a decision that Amway is a good business opportunity, not a handout. I checked your links and most any you can imagine. However, I allowed IBO to rebut my objections and address my concerns. Why am I involved after checking the so called "comprehensive and objective" site(s) you have in mind? Simple. I balanced information. I repeat, I balanced..... I LISTEN to the people prospecting me JUST as much as I pay attention to the critical information.
Most people simply shut us IBOS out as SOON as they hear or see anything negative about Amway/Quixtar. To bad, thats life and we have to deal with it. In short, I just thought Amway is a good deal. If people make money from tools? Get over it, its a business not a charity. Its not perfect but nothing is. By the way, I would invite you to explore this web site that is just as "comprehensive" and rebbutts many of the critical site. As I said, I have seen them all good and bad. Heres the site...... amway.ambience.com or ambience.amway.com------ They might be down or just out but try them.


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Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1659 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/12/2001 3:31 PM
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As an entrepreneur, I made a decision that Amway is a good business opportunity, not a handout. I checked your links and most any you can imagine. However, I allowed IBO to rebut my objections and address my concerns. Why am I involved after checking the so called "comprehensive and objective" site(s) you have in mind? Simple. I balanced information. I repeat, I balanced..... I LISTEN to the people prospecting me JUST as much as I pay attention to the critical information.

Questions to answer if you feel like it:
1. How many months have you been an IBO now?
2. Did you make any money last month?

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Author: MasterQi Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1660 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/12/2001 4:59 PM
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Heres the site...... amway.ambience.com or ambience.amway.com------ They might be down or just out but try them.


When your business' site is actually up & running and you are knowledgeable enough to give us the proper URL, then come talk to us.

Otherwise, stop wasting our time.

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1661 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/13/2001 5:22 PM
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Mr Kazim:

I have fours years since signing with at that point Amway. I have not made a dime from this business but it allows me great flexibilities which are lacking in other types of business such as venture businesses franchises et al. Now, its my fault that I have not made money from Quixtar/Amway. You see I have done NOTHING for 4 years except go to meetigs (voluntarily). Even if I had done EVERYTHING I MUST do to succeed and dont, Its STILL my fault. They have will always keep their end of the bargain.
Also, I am a college senior about to graduate this coming December. I decided four years ago to build my business seriously AFTER college graduation for several factors which are out of topic. Amway and Quixtar have kept THEIR part of the agreement that I entered four years ago fantastically by supporting my business.
I dont have the slightest beef with Amway/Quixtar. Now, YOU may cause I have not made a penny but I dont. I assume full responsability for my results. Again, let me repeat, Its MY fault that I have not made any money from Quixtar not theirs. They have done a marveolous job keeping THEIR end of our agreement. However, I have FAILED TO keep my part of the agreement. Some people tend to label a failure Amway/Quixtar cause I have not made any money yet. However, thats a deadly fallacy. They seem to lack understanding of our relationship. Whatever happened to 40 years of AMWAY track record of success? Its not a perfect company but its a BLUE CHIP. I never ask ANY company to be percet. I just ask to let give me a solid business to invest in.
By the way, as an entrepreneur FULLY knows, making "money" as far as profit may not come for years after operations have begun. Quixtar/Amway is not different with several variations. I am EXTREMELY grateful for those variations.


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Author: surfpnk One star, 50 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1662 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/13/2001 5:42 PM
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I have not made a dime from this business but it allows me great flexibilities which are lacking in other types of business such as venture businesses franchises et al.

I'm not sure just how great these "flexibilities" are when the end result is zero profit. A four year investment with no earnings doesn't sound too appealing to me. And I think you are being a bit harsh on yourself saying that this is all your fault. If anything, the Amway/Quixtar business model is the problem. It's setup to make a few "wealthy" at the expense of so many others.

I suppose if you're happy though, that's all that matters. I certainly wish I had the above URL from KJL3220 a few years ago to give to one of my ex-coworkers who got involved in Amway, and ended up alienating friends and family, not to mention losing a lot of money in the process.

Good luck sla5sh5.

Cheers!
Michael

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Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1663 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/13/2001 6:38 PM
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Mr Kazim:

I have fours years since signing with at that point Amway. I have not made a dime from this business but it allows me great flexibilities which are lacking in other types of business such as venture businesses franchises et al. Now, its my fault that I have not made money from Quixtar/Amway. You see I have done NOTHING for 4 years except go to meetigs (voluntarily). Even if I had done EVERYTHING I MUST do to succeed and dont, Its STILL my fault. They have will always keep their end of the bargain.
Also, I am a college senior about to graduate this coming December. I decided four years ago to build my business seriously AFTER college graduation for several factors which are out of topic. Amway and Quixtar have kept THEIR part of the agreement that I entered four years ago fantastically by supporting my business.
I dont have the slightest beef with Amway/Quixtar. Now, YOU may cause I have not made a penny but I dont. I assume full responsability for my results. Again, let me repeat, Its MY fault that I have not made any money from Quixtar not theirs. They have done a marveolous job keeping THEIR end of our agreement. However, I have FAILED TO keep my part of the agreement. Some people tend to label a failure Amway/Quixtar cause I have not made any money yet. However, thats a deadly fallacy. They seem to lack understanding of our relationship. Whatever happened to 40 years of AMWAY track record of success? Its not a perfect company but its a BLUE CHIP. I never ask ANY company to be percet. I just ask to let give me a solid business to invest in.
By the way, as an entrepreneur FULLY knows, making "money" as far as profit may not come for years after operations have begun. Quixtar/Amway is not different with several variations. I am EXTREMELY grateful for those variations.


That sure is a lot of capitalized words to answer a simple question.

If I thought your answer was unusual, I would simply agree with you that one should give a business time and effort before getting expectations up. Unfortunately, my experience is that about 95% of distributors would give very similar answers if they were honest. I didn't know your situation, so why else do you think I randomly asked the question in the first place?

One of the reasons I advise people to avoid MLM's such as Amway is not just because I consider it a money black hole, but also because it tends to a foster a big old inferiority complex in people who get involved. Continuously Amway "motivators" try to push the message that normal jobs will doom you to a life of poverty and misery, that people who don't make it in the business are losers, and above all, everything bad that happens to you as a result of your involvement with Amway is your fault and not theirs. Sound familiar? They seem to be willing to say anything to keep their fish on the hook, and some of this stuff has serious long-term psychological effects.

I don't mean to pick on you, sla5sh5, I am just making observations based on a few thousand emails I've received from distributors. As a matter of fact I commend you for having the persistence to finish college. I really believe that this a great contribution toward you staying upbeat and successful in the future, in spite of how often diamonds on the tapes will make fun of college and say it's a waste of time.

Amway and Quixtar have kept THEIR part of the agreement that I entered four years ago fantastically by supporting my business.

Now why shouldn't they support you? For four years you have paid for tickets to all the meetings and bought all the products you could. It sounds to me like you have been quite a nice cash cow for them. I wouldn't want you to go away either.

Some people tend to label a failure Amway/Quixtar cause I have not made any money yet. However, thats a deadly fallacy. They seem to lack understanding of our relationship. Whatever happened to 40 years of AMWAY track record of success? Its not a perfect company but its a BLUE CHIP.

Seems to me like you're the one who lacks understanding of your relationship. Quoting Amway's corporate success as proof that you are on the fast track to riches sounds like someone eating at McDonald's and bragging that they are now hobnobbing with a Fortune 500 company. Their size and influence is not a reflection on someone whose role so far has been that of "customer", except in the sense that you have given them money to support their growth.

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1664 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/13/2001 7:45 PM
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Mr Mike:

I think you misunderstood me a little. I apoligize for not being clear. I have not "invested" anything in Quixtar/Amway. By the way, when I do start seriously building my business, any investmets are tax deductible as business expenses. As long as you deduce them in the proper manner, you can do it as as business expense. As I said, I have done NOTHING four years to build my business. Am I not being clear enough when I say that? Therefore, I dont deserve to expect any return. However, people in my downline have made about$1,000 a month for about 10 months in 1998. Technically, I had about $10,000 - $15,000 slip through my fingers and go to my downline and not me in 1998. Thats a LOT of money for a college kid. Thats a lot of money for ANYONE seeking to complement their income from work.
Amway provides people an equal OPPORTUNITY, not a guaranteed Amway cash handout. People make money according to the VOLUME of SALES they generate. Would you please point me to a corporation who pays more commision to salespeople who generate the LEAST revenues? Theres none. It would be idiotic. Amway is not about to be the first. It makes sense that the people who generate the most volume MAKE the most money. Thats the same in any ORGANIZATION.
Were do you think Amway Diamonds are made? You really think people magically started as Diamonds? If so, you are hopelessly lost. They start from ZERO dollars like anyone starts. If that were the case, The FTC would have shut Amway down a long time ago my friend. Like in any business you have to EARN your keeps. Diamonds have spilled incredible sweat equity building their businesses. They deserve to make more money than me since I am not PRODUCTIVE. Like any business, AMWAY pays based on how PRODUCTIVE slaespeople are. In our case, we are independet contractors who contract with Amway.
Mike, I dont understand how Amway makes people "alianate" friends and family. In my opinion, thats uterly ridiculous. Even though I have prospected friends and family, I have not lost one friend due to "Amway." If you lose a friend cause of "Amway," you have some serious people skills problem.
Flexibilities? Well, you really believe I would be able to be in business with any feasibility in traditional businesses if I made no profit in four years? Unless your Amazon.com or any numbers of Biotechs, No. Simply, all the operational activities needed to run a business are outsourced to Amway. Therefore, I dont have the countless headaches small retail stores and large have. Amway invest THEIR cash to suport my needs. In MLM, bankruptcies dont exist cause contractors have a seamless infrastructure handled by the parent company. In my case, Amway is my parent. I can afford to NOT WORRY about not making money from Amway exactly cause I dont HAVE to in order to have a business or at least potentially generate revenue from Amway. All I need is Amway to recognize me as an IBO for $40.00. Thats what I call flexibility.
Im not being hard on myself. I am just being painfully honest and truthful. When you dont assume full responsability for things, its so easy to point fingers elsewere in case of failures and NOT give it 100% effort to the project. You see, that way it leaves you a way out psycologically and allows you to save face when failure or quitting occurs. None of that nonsense with me. What happens is that the silent majority like me dont like to make the noise the critics make. Again, the buck stops with me in ANY endeavor, Amway or anything else. If I last 100 years in Amway and make no money, its MY fault. Amway has been around for 40 years friend..... they must be doing SOMETHING right dont you think? Again, the FTC cleared Amway as a legitimate project for several reasons. What else do people want? When your attempting to save face NOTHING is valid. People desparately urge to save face whne failure "occurs." You can ALWAYS find holes in things. Your friend lost money? Too bad.... any business entails risk of loss. DOnt they or did I miss something recently. I counter that with the little investment required to build an Amway business compared to most any other business keeping in mind what Amway makes available to its contractors. By the way, I have seen that web site and most ALL critical web sites.


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Author: jrr7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1665 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/13/2001 8:17 PM
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It's not worth trying to convince Mr. Sla5sh5. He's made his decision to believe whatever Amway tells him, no matter what the consequences, and he's going to have to live with it.



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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1666 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/13/2001 9:21 PM
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Mr. Jr:

Very well said. However, in this board we are not trying to convince anyone sir. I hope we are just engaging in a conversation seeking to see both biased sides of the issue. Thats what Im hoping.. I mean, how else can I search for information that goes contrary to my beliefs. I have read most any negative site there is and positive too. Im going to post a couple of both. I know we are aware that the legitimate sources is not the point. For what I see, most any observation should be welcome, good or bad.
CM

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1667 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/14/2001 12:23 AM
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Mike:

To me it does not matter what 95% of the people will or will not say or do. I could care less. All I want is an opportunity. Amway provides an opportunity, not a guaranteed handout. I have never implied I am on the "fast" track sir. Support their growth? Well, yes I agree. But wouldnt I be supporting SOME ELSES growth with my consumer dollars. I would rather support Amway that ANY other company with my consumer dollars. There NOTHING wrong with that as you seem to imply.
I cite Amway success cause If I want to enter into a business relationship with a company, I would hope its a succesful company. Amway is a succesful company. Its the best in the industry. Mcdonalds will never allow me to build a business like Amway. Their both good companies though just different industries.
Amways business support comes irrespective of wether I buy their products and go to meetings. As long as I renew my IBO status, I have their support (Financial and technical). They are MUTUALLY exclusive and are not related. The point is that in our AGREEMENT, AMWAY has KEPT its part and I have not cause I have not built MY business right or even tried to on a consistent basis.
Now, as I mentioned before, I will post several links for our mutual discussion and education. The point is to have both sides of the argument, biased towards and and good about Amway, heard and discussed.
Heres a couple of links:
1. http://www.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/amway.html (Scott Larsen)

2. http://www.nmlifestyles.com/articles/470.html (ANTI - MLM Zealots)

3. http://www.nmlifestyles.com/articles/447.html (MLM Ignorance)

4. http://www.nmlifestyles.com/articles/399.html (Yager - Amway)

5. http://www.nmlifestyles.com/articles/403.html (Two who told two)

I hope we are open minded enough to exchange thoughts in an effort to understand one another instead of trying to prove a point.

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Author: TrueRed Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1668 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/14/2001 2:13 AM
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I am very puzzled by poster Sla5sh5. Although, according to your profile, you joined TMF in October 2000, your first five, and only, posts were written yesterday or today on this board.

Either this is a wild joke or you truly believe in Amway. Well, golly, although I cringe for you, it is certainly your right to pursue your dream in this manner. But what the heck are you doing on the Financial Scams board? The name alone gives you a clue what we think of Amway and other MLMs.

So what's going on? Why are you here? You have no doubts about your planned course so you are not here for advice. Are you trying to convert us??

I don't get it.

Even so, I wish you well. And a regular job before you are in debt from tapes and lecture fees.

TR

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Author: gurdison Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1669 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/14/2001 2:34 AM
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<Either this is a wild joke or you truly believe in Amway. Well, golly, although I cringe for you, it is certainly your right to pursue your dream in this manner. But what the heck are you doing on the Financial Scams board? The name alone gives you a clue what we think of Amway and other MLMs.>


I too wonder why we sometimes get people who believe that the Financial Scams Board must exist to promote scams instead of alerting people to them. This is especially true when it comes to MLM's. It is like bringing a case of beer to an AA meeting or the Daily Racing Form to a Gamblers Anonymous meeting. Go figure.


BRG



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Author: stephan1000 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1670 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/14/2001 5:11 AM
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...But what the heck are you doing on the Financial Scams board? The name alone gives you a clue what we think of Amway and other MLMs.

Ms Sasha5:

I guess you're using this forum as an anonymous venue to practice. It's slow enough to respond thoughtfully and perhaps confrontational enough to practice.

I only have one request thought, please lose the CAPS. Could be a personal thing, but I just find THIS EFFECT AWKWARD and UNCONVINCING.

Sasha5, I thank you in advance,

Stephan

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Author: stephan1000 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1671 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/14/2001 5:39 AM
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Sla5sh5,
Just in case you didn't see this, just thought you might find it useful.
And no, it's not about trying to convince you to quit Amway/Quixstar.
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=15272155
It was written by hocus, one of the most insigthful contributors on the retire early board.

Stephan

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Author: richardpor Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1672 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/14/2001 12:07 PM
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I only have one request thought, please lose the CAPS. Could be a personal thing, but I just find THIS EFFECT AWKWARD and UNCONVINCING.


It's also a form of MANIPULATING the reader. I had seen it a lot in manipulative advertising for various financial schemes.

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1673 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/14/2001 2:23 PM
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Mr TR:

Yes, I have been a "FOOL" for about a year. I love this site cause its a very good source for me to research my current investments and potential investments as an individual investor. The only place were I have posted is here on the scams post. I usually dont post cause I do all my stock posting on AOL message boards. Theres enough to do there. You dont have to post to be a fool by the way. Its not a requirement or is it? Did I miss something lately?
I was intrigued by this conversation and I joined it. I was made aware of it by a fellow fool about a couple of months ago. However, I had not been interested in posting. I started yesterday cause I read a couple of post that arose my attention. Again, I just want to engage in a mature DIALOGUE. I see we are listed under a "scam" post. Great. In my opinion, that just confirms how hopelessly lost the general public is about our industry and Amway/Quixtar. Thats not a problem. Its our job to expose the general public the difference between legitimate MLM's and scams. Most people no matter how much they "think" know about mlm, are lost. I know that cause the little group that I do have comes from people who swore to their mother that anything that looks mlm especially Amway are scams. Well, I have a peace of mind that I will find hundreds and thousands of people like that directly and indirectly in my Amway career cause I alredy have and I was one of them previuolsy. I hope you dont get miffed about someone who trys to defend MLM. Are only Amway/MLM bashers accepted here? Whatever happened to having BOTH voices heard? I certainly have heard both. I WILL post BOTH sides irrespective of "credibility." As I see it here, credibility of the source is not the point. Any moe joe is cited here for what I see, great. Try investing in stock that way and good luck. Theres literally no critical site that any of you can refer me to that I have not read or heard its complaint about. Thats my friend is MATURITY. I hope you people visit my posting cause I WILL post GOOD and BAD sites for our educational and mature converstation pleasure. Thats what FOOLS do right? We Duel different views.
No, I wont LOSE the caps cause I use them to make a point. However, I think I OVERUSED them yesterday. I apologize for my overuse of caps yesterday.
DO I believe in Amway. Yes, I believe in it with a PASSION friend.
I hope whatever endeavor people chose to do they acquire some sort of PASSION for it or they wont optimize their success. By the way, I was not PASSIONATE about Amway for my first two or three years cause I really did not understand this deal they way I do now. O, just for fun, most people quit in the first 6 months. Its my theory that they have the least understanding of this business of anyone except for outsiders. Also, I have to deal with the people who dont understand what we do calling me a scam artist and I just turn the other cheek cause they just dont know what they are talking about. Further, there sources of information are WAY different than my sources.
I am not in debt from those things cause I calculate my expenses WISELY. You really believe we are a bunch of no GOOD idiots who cant build a budget? What the HECK is wrong with you pal? If you think so, you have built a ridiculous and unfair stereotype of what we do. Thats very unfortunate. I guess the only people you "listen" to are the people who unfairly and viciously attack us.... like P&G. They have no interest in making our business better. They just want to see us OUT of business. Even if I had debt from tapes and meetings.... Gee how different is that than building a traditional business were you have to go to banks etc to have them loan money up the wazzoooooooo. Please, loose that crazy steretype that people go in debt in this business. You do only if your an IDIOT and dont know how to control your budget. Again, I am here to stimulate a "FOOL DUEL" were BOTH sides are heard. As I saw it, this was only a MLM bashing ground. Well, it will no longer be just that. I mean, if we are MATURE enough to read and think about BOTH sides of the issue this board will turn into a tru FOOLS board, not a bashing ground. I may be the only one left soon, but that says a lot about the other people who are only interested in citing and reading critical sources. Cheers...... by the way. Go qcom, aol, csco, orcl, sunw, emc, xom,tx,hal,chv and mo.... kick ass!

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Author: WauseonFox Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1674 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/14/2001 5:43 PM
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Sla5sh5:

In your words:

"Yes, I have been a "FOOL" for about a year. I love this site cause (sic) its (sic) a very good source for me to research my current investments and potential investments as an individual investor. The only place were I have posted is here on the scams post. I usually dont (sic) post cause (sic) I do all my stock posting on AOL message boards. Theres (sic) enough to do there. You dont (sic) have to post to be a fool by the way. Its (sic) not a requirement or is it? Did I miss something lately?"

When I read your posts, I feel sorry for you. If this is the best you can write, then you dishoner those who have tried to teach you. Further, you bring shame on any alums of your academic institution. Any success you accrue will be done on the backs of others who care enough to follow the rules of syntax. It appears to me that you are cut out to participate in MLM schemes.

All the best.

--WauseonFox--


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Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1675 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/14/2001 5:54 PM
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If this is the best you can write, then you dishoner those who have tried to teach you.

Allways remmember, WauseonFox: when yuo critisize sumone elses speling; and punctuation, yuo invite others too do the same four yuo.

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Author: WauseonFox Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1676 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/14/2001 6:52 PM
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Kazim:

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! (as I run away with my tail between my legs)

--WauseonFox--


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Author: gurdison Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1677 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/14/2001 7:21 PM
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<Again, I am here to stimulate a "FOOL DUEL" were BOTH sides are heard. As I saw it, this was only a MLM bashing ground.>


Apparently the message is not sinking in. Again, this is not a board to discuss the virtues of busineses that skirt the edges of the law. It exists to WARN people about scams in all of their very many forms. MLM's happen to be one of the most popular forms of scams. The only way one can be sure of not getting scammed by an MLM is to avoid ALL of them. Most of the board regulars can smell a scam a mile away. Unfortunately, if you take the time to read a number of the previous threads, many posters have friends or relatives who did not spot the scam until it bit them in the ass and took off with their money. Some of the victims have lost considerable amounts of money.

You can talk until you are blue in the face, but you will not win over any converts here. I do not have any direct personal experience with Amway. However, I have heard enough horrible experiences of people on both the buying and selling end to know that I would slam the door in the face of anyone who tried selling that stuff to me. My reaction is a lot calmer that those who have personally been ripped off.

Unless you have something meaningful to contribute that has nothing to do with Amway, I suggest that both you and the board would be better off if you stopped posting here. Praising the virtues of MLM's is simply not appropriate here.



BRG

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Author: TrueRed Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1678 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/14/2001 8:30 PM
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Gee whiz, this is getting to be so darn much fun.

Let me address the spelling issue first. The problem, of course, is not with the poster but with TMF, which does not offer a spelling checker. As everyone knows, a spelling checker solves the problem.

I have a spelling checker,
It came with my PC.
It plainly marks four my revue
Mistake I cannot sea.
Iran this program threw it,
I'm sure your please two no,
Its letter perfect in it's weigh,
My checker tolled me sew.

As for Slasher (or whatever your name is), by all means carry on. This board can always use a little RED MEAT!

TR

P.S. Folks, go a little easy on Slasher's spelling and punctuation. I believe I recognize the use of English as a second language. How well would you do in Russian or Urdu?

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Author: EarlyFool One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1680 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/14/2001 9:53 PM
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WELL, wher can i sing up?

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Author: stephan1000 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1681 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/15/2001 1:23 AM
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Sl5sh5:

Friend, (your expression, not mine)

Your signal to noise ratio is pretty low.

Repetition, exposure, and LOTS OF NOISE may work in real life, hell, it may even work on some other internet message boards, but noise doesn't really work on the Motley Fool.



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Author: yankee15 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1682 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/15/2001 5:38 AM
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. If this is the best you can write, then you dishoner those who have tried to teach you. Further, you bring shame on any alums of your academic institution.



Before criticizing someone else for their writing and potential lack of education I might remind you that you need to learn how to spell.The word you wrote dishoner is spelled dishonor.Gee it is easy to criticize is it not?

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Author: ogrecat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1683 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/15/2001 10:45 AM
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I think we can safely assume that sla5sh5 is not an english major?

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Author: jrr7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1690 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/16/2001 11:42 AM
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MLM's happen to be one of the most popular forms of scams.

I'd say, "Many businesses that are scams and/or illegal use the MLM method as the quickest way to recruit new suckers. And many MLMs although nominally legal, skirt the lines of legality."

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1699 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/16/2001 2:40 PM
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JR:

LOLLLLLL. Give me a break MAN. Either MLM is LEGAL or its not PERIOD! No squirting nowhere. Either you are an INMATE or you are NOT. Theres no in between there. Similarly, there is not in between in the LEGALITY of MLM's. I think the courts have been VERY clear on that issue. You may refuse to admit that until you die, but thats GREAT. Again, MLM's and scams are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. They are NOT the same. Youre talking about simple Word of Mouth marketing not MLM. MLM builds a LEGITMATE marketing pay PLAN and EXPANSION plan based on word of mouth marketing like Amway, Nu - Skin, Herbalife, Shaklee et al.
SCAMS simply use Word of mouth Marketing to expand their scam that wont last. There are scams in many different industries. we just need to know how to distinguish legitimate firms from scams. Most people dont have the slightest clue how to do that in MLM. Thats fine. We all use WOM. We just do it for free and informally. MLMS build a LASTING pay plan AROUND word of mouth marketing. They are mutually exclusive. Until you LEARN to the difference, you are hopeless.
Pyramids scams attempt to dress themselves like legitimate MLMs cause our business is DECEPTIBLY simple to develop. It was developed with the average working man in mind. Thats the APPEAL of MLM. Again, scams DO NOT use MLM. They use SCAMS with no developed marketing and pay plan. The problem is MOST people -including me at one point- cant tell the difference betweeb MLM and scams even if there life depended on it. Therefore, they lump them into one but they are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. However, I do recognize, as this speech recognizes, that the difference between Pyramids, Ponzis and Legitimate MLMS take much research and perusing to determine. The reason is cause one has to examine the DETAILS of each program and not GENERALIZE. SInce the task is time consuming, most people just generalize. Now, this was done in 1998. Since then, many things have changed that have refined MLM that this speech does not cover. Heres a link to a speech by an FTC officialif youre brave enough to explore it:

1. http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.htm

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Author: snie Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1700 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/16/2001 2:44 PM
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<plonk!>

sla5sh5 added to your Ignored Fools list.

Aaaaahhhh.....much better.

Now, where were we?

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Author: jrr7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1701 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/16/2001 2:52 PM
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Give me a break MAN. Either MLM is LEGAL or its not PERIOD!
Just because the feds haven't been able to put together a case about something doesn't necessarily mean the organization is perfectly legitimate. Organized crime has operated for impunity for years due to corrupt/incompetent authorities. Is your motto "If the founders aren't in jail it must be legal!" ?

Either you are an INMATE or you are NOT. Theres no in between there.
Fugitives, escaped prisoners, prisoners awaiting trial whose guilt is in question.

G'bye, you're not entertaining or creative enough.

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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1702 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/16/2001 2:57 PM
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I AGREE completely THAT this poster is one of the MOST annoying I HAVE come ACROSS.

sla5sh5 added to your Ignored Fools list.

This message was written by sla5sh5, an author you chose to ignore.



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Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1703 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/16/2001 3:04 PM
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Heres a link to a speech by an FTC officialif youre brave enough to explore it:

1. http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.htm


<begin quote>
Moreover, Amway had three different policies to encourage distributors to actually sell the company's soaps, cleaners, and household products to real end users. First, Amway required distributors to buy back any unused and marketable products from their recruits upon request. Second, Amway required each distributor to sell at wholesale or retail at least 70 percent of its purchased inventory each month -- a policy known as the 70% rule. Finally, Amway required each sponsoring distributor to make at least one retail sale to each of 10 different customers each month, known as the 10 customer rule.(22)

The Commission found that these three policies prevented distributors from buying or forcing others to buy unneeded inventory just to earn bonuses. Thus, Amway did not fit the Koscot definition: Amway participants were not purchasing the right to earn profits unrelated to the sale of products to consumers "by recruiting other participants, who themselves are interested in recruitment fees rather than the sale of products."(23)
<end quote>

Out of idle curiosity, when was the last time your upline stressed the importance of, or in any way mentioned the existence of the 70% rule and the 10 customer rule?

Whoops, let me rephrase that in a writing style you'll understand.

Out of IDLE curiosity, WHEN was the LAST TIME your upline STRESSED the IMPORTANCE of, or in ANY way MENTIONED the existence of the 70% RULE and the 10 CUSTOMER rule?


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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1705 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/16/2001 5:10 PM
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Kazim:

Your forgot a little something:

Those measures were VOLUNTARY measures made by Amway. Second, the court found that even IF a FIRM adhered to these three measures, it could be a scam if its people made money through FROTLOADING among other factors. Therefore, these measures ARE NOT ESSENTIAL DETERMINING FACTORS. The essential determining factor are: How do people make money? Is there frontloading? Can the last person make money? To all these quesitons the court answered in Amways favor casue Amway had a stable COMPENSATION PLAN. By the way, this is a legal case that AMWAY WON. The other measueres were SAFETY measures ADDED by AMWAY.

If you noticed, Kostco required people to pay a one time fee of about 7K YIKES! Thats nothing, some firms require even MORE. How many times can you afford to pay 7K a month. You think your DOWNLINE can fork over 7K a month for consumption of household items or whatever? NO! Thats UNSUSTAINABLE. They were purchasing the right to profit from stuff UNRELATED to the sale of needed GOODS or services. Thats frontloading. Those are one time recruiting fees. They are one time "headhunting fees." Amway - MLM has nothing of that sort. Amway IBOS pay $40 dollars for an intro kit and I did not make a penny from those transactions. I do not even make a MINI PENNY when I sponsor someone. The company provides the kit AT COST. We make money based on monthly purchases made by IBOS to SELL or CONSUME. We purchase things we NEED on a monthly BASIS. If we dont need stuff, we dont BUY stuff. The model is usually $200 a month of household stuff. The last person can make money cause a lasting distribution system sustained by monthly consumption is created. Also, everyone has a chance to retail. If you examine the Kostco case and compare it to Amway, youll see GLARING differences. That, my friend, was what the court saw.
They are always stressed. You believe these three factors are ESSENTIAL DETERMINIG FACTORS of MLMS and scams. They are NOT. The court determined they were NOT ESSENTIAL FACTORS EITHER. They are simply safety measures to encourage a certain behaviour. The essentilal determining factors are those that I mentioned. We dont need those measueres cause we do the things the measures call for ANYWAYS cause the marketing plan is set up in such a fashion. The MARKETING and COMPENSATION plan is the DETERMINIG factor between mlm's and scams like Kostco not the three safety measures know as the "Amway Rules." Those are just used as FARCES by scams to wipe their butts with AMways name as the court in this case founf out.

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Author: jekkel One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1707 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/16/2001 7:55 PM
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sla5sh5

You sound like a fanatic.

Also, your writing style is too difficult to read. I don't know what the last of your posts have said because I get a headache just looking at your writing. You need to learn to deliver your message in an easy to follow manner if you hope to make your fortune in sales.

Good luck

-jekkel

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1708 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/16/2001 8:19 PM
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Jek:

Well, thanx for the free advice. However, I dont intend to practice on a posting board. If you cant understand what Im saying, maybe you should sk me and Ill respond to your question SPECIFICALLY. However, I dont plan on pratcicing writing skills on this board. Thanx anyways....


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Author: OrderofMagnitude Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1711 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/17/2001 2:01 AM
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It's also a form of MANIPULATING the reader.

Come on, give the guy a break. These are his 1st few posts. He most likely doesn't know <b> and was looking for a way to provide emphasis.

O of M

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Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1713 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/17/2001 9:25 AM
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Regarding the the ten customer rule, sla

Your forgot a little something:

Those measures were VOLUNTARY measures made by Amway. Second, the court found that even IF a FIRM adhered to these three measures, it could be a scam if its people made money through FROTLOADING among other factors. Therefore, these measures ARE NOT ESSENTIAL DETERMINING FACTORS. The essential determining factor are: How do people make money? Is there frontloading? Can the last person make money? To all these quesitons the court answered in Amways favor casue Amway had a stable COMPENSATION PLAN. By the way, this is a legal case that AMWAY WON. The other measueres were SAFETY measures ADDED by AMWAY.


That's not what I got out of it. The language in the letter that you posted was quite clear:

The Commission found that these three policies prevented distributors from buying or forcing others to buy unneeded inventory just to earn bonuses. Thus, Amway did not fit the Koscot definition

Debra Valentine appears to be saying that Amway would have fit the Koscot definition if they didn't have those rules in place.

She's not the first, either. The FTC ruling in 1979, which every Amway distributor loves to talk about, says the ten customer rule was a major factor in not shutting them down, and demanded that it be enforced.
http://www.mlmlegal.com/amway.html

But now you are all but claiming that these rules are "voluntary", nominally in place by Amway but not enforced by them. Could it be that Amway set up fake rules to trick the FTC? Oh, dear.


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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1715 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/17/2001 2:45 PM
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Kazim:

You make some good points Kaz. However, when we cite the 1979 case, we cite in within CONTEXT. Those three elemets are just a PIECE of the puzzle with MANY elements. Those three are the LEAST important ones. Did you fail to see that companies could ADHERE to those three elements and STILL be a scam cause you dont really have a lasting compensation plan? Those three ELEMENTS basically REINFORCE what AMway ALREDY does WITHOUT thouse rules.

Didnt you read that the FTC had shut down MANY firms who adhered to the AMWAY RULES but still were scams cause they still FRONTLOADED and HEADHUNTED? In other words, those element are NOT ESSENTIAL determining factors. They are a SMALL pieces of the puzzle but ONLY in AMWAYS case. What if you adhered to all those rules but STILL FRONTLOADED AND HEADHUNTED? The court found out that such occurences happen by SCAMS who try to HIDE by USING the "AMWAY RULES" but still FRONTLOAD and HEADHUNT.

Did you notice how the RULES were MEANINGLESS if firms still HEADHUNTED AND FRONTLOADED. Those are the charges and transactions that ONLY occurr with NEW "recruits." They are ONE TIME charges usually. How many time can people afford to pay $5,000 $10,000 or $20,000? I do not think very many times. Thats why scams DO NOT LAST. They COLLAPSE FAST. They do not have a compensation plan backed by products that are needed every month to generate a steady stream of revenue. Scams have the new people pay 10K, 20K or more for basically NOTHIG. If anything, they give you a truckload of scam products to "APPEAR" they are selling goods and services.


Before she even MENTIONED the three elements (10 customer rule, 70% rule et al)she mentioned several factors differentiating Amway -MLM's from Kostco - scams et al. Furthermore, the COURT LITERALLY ELIMINATED them as determining factors. I understand PG, SCHWARTZ, and the rest of the AMWAY haters will not give you the BREADTH and CONTEXT I am giving you. Thats cause they are out to put AMWAY OUT of business. I have seen their poison but I also heard FROM the other side too. I understand their is a 70% rule, 10 customer rule et et al. However, I also understand those are MEANINGLESS in determining pyraminds from MLM's. The three elements to love to mention, along with vicious critics of our business and Industry, are NEARLY WORTHLESS for all practical purposes. Here:


In In re Amway Corp.,(19) another landmark decision from the 1970's, the FTC distinguished an illegal pyramid from a legitimate multilevel marketing program. At the time, Amway manufactured and sold cleaning supplies and other household products. Under the Amway Plan, each distributor purchased household products at wholesale from the person who recruited or "sponsored" her. The top distributors purchased from Amway itself. A distributor earned money from retail sales by pocketing the difference between the wholesale price at which she purchased the product, and the retail price at which she sold it. She also received a monthly bonus based on the total amount of Amway products that she purchased for resale to both consumers and to her sponsored distributors.(20)

Since distributors were compensated both for selling products to consumers and to newly-recruited distributors, there was some question as to whether this was a legitimate multilevel marketing program or an illegal pyramid scheme. The Commission held that, although Amway had made false and misleading earnings claims when recruiting new distributors,(21) the company's sales plan was not an illegal pyramid scheme.


Amway differed in several ways from pyramid schemes that the Commission had challenged. It did not charge an up-front "head hunting" or large investment fee from new recruits, nor did it promote "inventory loading" by requiring distributors to buy large volumes of nonreturnable inventory. Instead, Amway only required distributors to buy a relatively inexpensive sales kit. Moreover, Amway had three different policies to encourage distributors to actually sell the company's soaps, cleaners, and household products to real end users. First, Amway required distributors to buy back any unused and marketable products from their recruits upon request. Second, Amway required each distributor to sell at wholesale or retail at least 70 percent of its purchased inventory each month -- a policy known as the 70% rule. Finally, Amway required each sponsoring distributor to make at least one retail sale to each of 10 different customers each month, known as the 10 customer rule.(22)


Now, Kazim, THAT puts things into PROPER CONTEXT. As you read the three paragraphs extracted from the case, you should notice that there are several critical elements that differentiate Amway from Kostco - scams et al. Have you NOTICED how the "three elements" are at the BOTTOM in order? Not only that, those three elements are WORTHLESS when determining a scam from a Pyramid. AGAIN, THOSE elements (10 customer rules, 70% et al) are MEANINGLESS. To clarify, READ THIS:


The 1990's first brought an important refinement in the law. As the Commission pursued new pyramid cases, many defendants proclaimed their innocence, stating that they had adopted the same safeguards -- the inventory buy-back policy, the 70% rule, and the 10 customer rule --that were found acceptable in Amway. However, an appellate court decision called Webster v. Omnitrition Int'l, Inc.,(24) pointed out that the Amway safeguards do not immunize every marketing program. The court noted that the "70% rule" and "10 customer rule" are meaningless if commissions are paid based on a distributor's wholesale sales (which are only sales to new recruits), and not based on actual retail sales.(25) The court also noted that an inventory buy-back policy is an effective safeguard only if it is actually enforced.(26)


To conluded, KAZ, the elements you point OUT ARE WORTHLESS. How much clearer can that be after the example I gave you from the FTC discussion, Webster V. Omnitrion. Again, I guess you puposely IGNORE the other ELEMETS which are BY FAR the MOST IMPORTANT ones. You focus exclusively on the three WORTHLESS ELEMETS. I dont blame you cause your main source of information are the viciously slanderous and libelous information PG gave to Sidney Schwartz. Virtually every critical Amway site derives its info from Sidney Schwatz. Hence, they all are in CAHOOTS with Procter & Gamble. PG and Schwartz misrepresent what the "THREE WORTHLESS ELEMENTS" mean. The NEVER, like YOU, mention the other elements the FTC found to justify its decision. By the way, PG lost ALL claims against Amway. Claims ranging from defamation and that AMway was a Pyramid. Furthermore, PG was fined for non compliance. Also, PG tried to bring up the age old argument that Amway is a Pyramid. The court just basically said "shut up" and pay the fine.


I focus on the LARGER picture. The three WORTHLESS ELEMENTS are a VERY SMALL picture of that LARGER PICTURE. Again, why focus on the THREE WORTHLESS elements when you could actually ADHERE to them and STILL be scams? That makes no sense. Trick the FTC? You cant trick the FTC with the three WORTHLESS ELEMENTS. You have to have a set of ELEMENTS to reinforce one another. Thats what the FTC saw. Amway had a vast set of elements that reinforced one another. The 10 customer rule, 70% simply REINFORCED and ENCOURAGED what Amway ALREDY set up in its MARKETING and COMPENSATION plan. Otherwise, Omnitrion would still be in business. Clearly, its not in business even though it and other adhered to the "THREE WORTHLESS ELEMENTS." With these links youll see that there is NO MENTION of the elemnts you talk about axcept for a set of ELEMENTS. Amway passes ALL these. However, it passes cause of its COMPENSATION plan. In other words, it passes due to the way PEOPLE MAKE monye mainly. Check this out:

1. http://www.amway.com/infocenter/questions/question19.asp

2. http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/alerts/pyrdalrt.htm







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Author: LuckyBuddah One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1716 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/17/2001 3:24 PM
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Sla5sh5,

I've been reading this past few hundred posts (or whatever the number is now) mostly to amuse myself during a slow work day. The thing I'm not quite understanding is that you are a self-admitted failure and have not done a thing in four years to increase the success of your "business". With that said, what is it exactly that you are so passionate about? I just don't get it. Why is this guy so adamant about? (Preceeding question was for everyone else) Amway has apparently done nothing useful for you yet you continue to defend it like you are an abused spouse...

P.S. This is kind of a "Hmmmmm...." question...please do not answer as your overuse of the <Shift> button is giving me a migraine.

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1717 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/17/2001 3:42 PM
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Kaz:

Once and for all, Ill confirm that the elements you point to
(10 customer rule, 70% et al) are MEANINGLESS and flat out USELESS in distinguishing MLM's from Pyramids. The FTC (in 1979)found a series of elements that EXEMPTED Amway from being a Pyramid. You seem to think the rules you point out are THE ONLY distinguishing factors. They are NOT EVEN CLOSE. AGAIN, they were found to be a small piece of a PUZZLE in 1979. In the Omnitrion case in the 1990's, the 10 customer rule and the 70% rule et al were found to be MEANINGLESS and USELESS if commisions were paid by one time HEAD HUNTING and FRONTLOADING FEES. As we know CLEARLY, AMWAY charges NO frontloading and/or Headhunting fees. In contrast, pyramids do. Here, this is from your links to the case:

The Amway system is based on retail sales to consumers. (Findings 72­75, 144) Respondents have avoided the abuses of pyramid schemes by (1) not having a 'headhunting' fee; (2) making product sales a precondition to receiving the performance bonus; (3) buying back excessive inventory; and (4) requiring that products be sold to consumers. (Patty, Tr. 3092­94). Amway's buy­back, 70% and ten customer rules deter unlawful inventory loading. (Findings 145­47) [FN27] Amway is not in business to sell distributorships and is not a pyramid distribution scheme. (Findings 142­44)

In the 1990s, as I have tirelesly pointed out, the courts deemed the last element in this paragraph (70% and 10 customer rule) WORTHLESS and USELESS. They serve of NO USE, comprende? Now, remember, this ruling was in 1979. The Omnitrion case took place in the 1990's. Therefore, the Omnitrion case -were the 70% and 10 customer rule were made USELESS and WORTHLESS in distinguishing scams from MLM's-SUPERCEDES the 1979 case. The Omnitrion case POLISHED and REFINED the 1979 FTC case. The Omnitrion case POLISHED AND REFINED the FTC case by conclusding that the 10 customer rule and 70% are USELESS AND MEANINGLESS. Now, have I missed something or is it backwards when it comes to cases refiniment?



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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1718 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/17/2001 4:04 PM
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Buddha:

How can you expect anyone else ASIDE from me tell you why I defend Amway? Thats ridiculous. Like people are going to know me le better than myself. If you want ignore me or block me, fine. But I will respond.

The answer is simple:

Amway has done EVERYTHING its supposed to do under our agreement. I appreciate that fact. Amway has been VERY useful. However, I have not kept MY end of the bargain. How hard to understand is that? Its called a little something known as PERSONAL RESPONSABILITY. Why should I be angry at Amway when they have DONE EVERYTHING they said they would do? I just have not kept MY end of the BARGAIN. I have never labeled myself a failure. If I have labeled myself a failure, than I retract the statement. I simply have not reached my goals yet. However, I WILL. By the way, I believe failure is when a person does not EVEN attempt to do a project and chickens out due to fear. If you try to pursue a project with focus, discipline, PASSION and BELIEF, that makes you a success. Really, its the journey that COUNTS not the end results. Regardless of wether you fail or succeed in achieving your goals. I can hold my head up high as long as I give it my ALL and dont chicken out.

I am passionate cause I believe this is a good deal for myself or anyone who choses to build this business or any other MLM.

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Author: LuckyBuddah One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1719 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/17/2001 5:02 PM
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Casinos also do everything that they agree to. They pay the winners and take from the losers...it doesn't make for an equal arrangement between parties though. If I decided that I would take everything I own, head to Vegas, and play craps until I was either finacially secure or dead broke, and was passionate about it...it doesn't make me a sucess, it makes me an idiot. The people who choose not to play craps until all of their money is gone are not chickens, they are people who realize that the odds are stacked so heavily against them that they enjoy their night out and don't try to make a career out of it just because several of their friends have actually walked away from the table winners. I think that this is the analogy that many of the people on this board are trying to get accross to you. Regardless of how passionate and focused and determined you might be, you're still rolling dice in a game that doesn't have you as the favorite.

It is my personal opinion, that if you were to take all of your passion and focus and determination and put it into something that will more than likely benefit yourself as well as others, you'd be much better off.

And if you are so hell-bent on sticking with a company just because they follow their agreement, have I got a deal for you! Just send me whatever money you have left at the end of each month and I'll spend it as I see fit and in return I'll give you nothing. I promise that I will uphold my portion of this agreement for as long as you see fit...and tell your friends about this great deal too and I'll try to include them.

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Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1720 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/17/2001 6:53 PM
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Didnt you read that the FTC had shut down MANY firms who adhered to the AMWAY RULES but still were scams cause they still FRONTLOADED and HEADHUNTED? In other words, those element are NOT ESSENTIAL determining factors. They are a SMALL pieces of the puzzle but ONLY in AMWAYS case. What if you adhered to all those rules but STILL FRONTLOADED AND HEADHUNTED? The court found out that such occurences happen by SCAMS who try to HIDE by USING the "AMWAY RULES" but still FRONTLOAD and HEADHUNT.

Hey everybody, it's time to play ***Spot The Fallacy!!!*** Slash is claiming:

1. Practice X is illegal.
2. Practice Y is illegal.
3. Koscot is running an illegal operation because it engages in both practice X and practice Y.
4. Amway engages in practice X, but not practice Y.
5. Therefore, Amway is not running an illegal operation.

FTC says the ten customer rule is not SUFFICIENT to prove that you are not running a pyramid scam; it doesn't call it worthless or meaningless.

You mentioned Webster v. Omnitrition.

http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guides/omnitrition.html#retail

What that case highlighted was the fact that the way to not be a scam is to have commissions tied to retail sales, rather than personal consumption. It doesn't matter whether retail sales are achieved through something like the 10 customer rule or the 70% rule; what matters is that you don't buy a bunch of junk "from yourself" and get a bonus for it.

The Ninth Circuit makes it painfully clear that commissions paid to distributors must be directly tied to retail sales. The court stated: "The key to any anti-pyramiding rule ... where the basic structure serves to reward recruitment more than retailing, is that the rule must serve to tie recruitment bonuses to actual retail sales in some way."4 This appears a straightforward requirement, but the court threw several obstacles in the way of traditional methods of tying commissions to retail sales.

a. Products Purchased by a Distributor for Personal Consumption do not Qualify as a Retail Sale

The court stated that sales to persons who are participants in the company's compensation program do not qualify as "retail sales" for purposes of satisfying the Koscot test. This interpretation of the Koscot test5 precludes companies from paying commissions on products sold to distributors for personal consumption. This is contrary to the foundation of many MLM programs, where personal consumption by distributors is the driving force powering sales.


So, it's a simple question: does Amway or doesn't it encourage retail sales over personal consumption? Did your upline tell you: "You can buy products from Amway if you want, but if you want to earn your bonus then you are going to have to find retail customers who are not distributors in order to provide a final profit"?

I would also like to make another point here... in the final analysis, whether Amway is legal or not is irrelevant. (The fact is, it is legal according to past court cases, whether or not they were misled by Amway's unenforced rules.) It is a scam because it is a lousy business opportunity that promises unrealistic profits to people who sign on; just as the lottery does; just as mutual funds loaded with huge fees do. These other things are legal, but that doesn't change the fact that they are not something you should participate in.

I dont blame you cause your main source of information are the viciously slanderous and libelous information PG gave to Sidney Schwartz. Virtually every critical Amway site derives its info from Sidney Schwatz. Hence, they all are in CAHOOTS with Procter & Gamble. PG and Schwartz misrepresent what the "THREE WORTHLESS ELEMENTS" mean.

Hey, Slash, you know what I was just thinking your posts need in addition to randomly capitalized words and obsessive blind devotion to your cause? Paranoid conspiracy theories.

Oh look, you got some!


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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1721 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/17/2001 7:00 PM
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Budda:

Name ONE Entrepreneur who has NOT had the deck stacked against him/her? EVERY ENTREPRENEUR starts with the decks stacked AGAINST himself/Herself. Not to mention your example is ridiculous out of place and blatantly empty childish.
Entrepreneurs take CALCULATED risks. You may not like that risk but thats fine. Thats exactly MLM Entrepreneurs are about or ANY Entrepreneur in ANY business. I made a decision based on a set of relevant DATA. I feel SUPREMELY confident of the quality of DATA that I compiled when I made my decision to associate myself to such a fine corporation, Amway. The data I get from people on this board does not even come CLOSE to DEBUNKING or even CHALLENGING the data on which I made my BUSINESS decision on. You people give more like GOSSIP and OPINION! I dont make BUSINESS DECISIONS based on GOSSIP and OPINION.

Let me give you a little something for you to think about so I can illustrate my relationship with Amway. I will challenge you to miss ONE whole week or month of WORK at your JOB without any notice to your boss. I wonder if your employer will PAY you for that week or month you missed. I wonder if youll have a JOB if you pull that off. Thats the same analogy Im using with Amway. I cannot expect to get paid if I HAVE NOT DONE MY WORK!!! Especially, I cannot expect to be paid if I am not PRODUCTIVE! How freggin clearer can that get.

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Author: LuckyBuddah One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1722 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/17/2001 7:13 PM
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Let me give you a little something for you to think about so I can illustrate my relationship with Amway. I will challenge you to miss ONE whole week or month of WORK at your JOB without any notice to your boss. I wonder if your employer will PAY you for that week or month you missed. I wonder if youll have a JOB if you pull that off. Thats the same analogy Im using with Amway. I cannot expect to get paid if I HAVE NOT DONE MY WORK!!! Especially, I cannot expect to be paid if I am not PRODUCTIVE! How freggin clearer can that get.

Okay?....Ummm....

Well then what do you get paid when you ARE productive?

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Author: LuckyBuddah One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1723 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/17/2001 8:20 PM
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Sla5sh5,

Entrepreneurs take CALCULATED risks.

I was considering this statement on my drive over here and I think you may have failed to include several factors in your calculations.

1. The negative connotations associated with the company Amway.
-If you were to come to my home and attempt to sell me some Amway products you would continue to hear laughter long after the door had been closed in your face. (Don't take this personally. This is how I treat all people attemting to sell me unsolicited, over-priced, crap.)

2. The fact that, as a salesman (regardless of what Amway might claim, you are going to have to at least sell people on the idea) you must have the ability to listen to your customer's desires and concerns.
-I have made the assumption that you lack this essential skill due to your continued use of randomly capitialized words despite repeated requests from other posters to discontinue the use of such words.

3. The people on this board are making an attempt to help.
-I have yet to receive any malicious advice on this website. We are all hoping the best for you and, I think, society as a whole. It is apparently the overwhelming view that Amway is not a positive vehicle for success. I would tend to believe that view may extend well past this board.

My view of Amway and other MLM's is as follows:
These companies were built on the backs of those that could least afford it (Much like casinos). They require a continuing supply of "Suckers" in order to line the pockets of a few(Much like casinos). And they provide substandard services to both their customers and to their "employees"(Casinos make their mark here).

The view of my own employment differs somewhat,
I receive compensation in exchange for the services, knowledge, etc. that I provide. My employer, in turn, uses those skills to provide to their customers. The customers then provide my employer compensation for services, goods, etc. It is a (somewhat) balanced environment in which everyone benefits.

While your attitude is extraordinary your actions speak louder than words. You have been a part of Amway for several years now, yet you cannot relay any success stories to this group. It is also my belief that, should you become an Amway success story it will be done at the cost of others...it will not be a mutually beneficial relationship to society.

I'd just like to ask you to think carefully about the price that your "customers" will pay in order for you to succeed.

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Author: jgiglio Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1724 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/17/2001 8:27 PM
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You've harassed this board with 16 messages so far, and you have gotten only a single recommendation. Doesn't this tell you something?

This is a place to discuss financial scams. Go away. I hear there are lots of good 'prospects' in bookstores that serve coffee. Go harass them.

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1725 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/17/2001 9:36 PM
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Glio:

Im not harrasing NO ONE. I am RESPONDING to previous POST. Ignore me of you want, but I will respond to post wether ya LIKE OR NOT.

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Author: CoolandCalm Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1733 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/18/2001 1:36 PM
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Sla5sh5,

After reading through the chain of messages, I've come to realize a few things maybe you can elaborate on.

1) What exactly was your agreement (that you feel Amway held their end of the bargain)?
2) I believe you stated that you only had to pay $40 to maintain the status of an Amway IBO. Isn't that an annual fee?
3) What type of interaction or working relationship did you have with your upline, downlines, sidelines, etc. once you decided not to continue to attend the weekly hotel meetings (at $6 a pop), purchase the recommended readings (at $20 a pop), listen to the weekly motivational tapes at ($6 a pop), or maintain at least the recommended 100PV which you state should do it with $200 in personal purchases) per month by buying the usual toilet paper, cleaning supplies and nutritional supplements from "your own business"(which would really help out your upline)?
4) Refering to two of the three rules that Amway set in place some time ago: the 70 Percent and 10 customer rules. Tell me if I'm mistaken but when the uplines hold the get-together sessions to "show the plan" to new prospects, they show how you can purchase products from yourself and save an instant 30 percent from tax savings (28% to be exact), as well as creating a tax right-off (from attending meetings, using a portion of your home as an office, using your personal vehicle for business, etc.). But they fail to mention that you do need to have at least ten non-IBO customers each month in order to claim the tax advantage. So, yes, the rules may have been in place for some time, but you'll be hard pressed to here that (as well as other important info such as how much time is really needed to build an MLM business) from the up-lines trying to prospect you.
5) How long were you exposed to Amway (i.e. how many meetings did you attend, who took you to the meeting, and did you really receive a fair representation of what it takes to build "the business" before you decided to become an IBO?

I ask these questions because, yes, it does take hard work to buid any type of business. But, a big thorn in many peoples (victims) side is they are lead to beleive that it is very easy to build the Amway business (and it does come across that way when listening to the "smoke and mirrors" presentation. Most of the time, it isn't until after they've paid the $40 for the right to call themsleves an IBO, forked out another $200 for the Amway starter kit, added their name to the recommended reading and tape list for another $20 and $6 every other week respectively, began attending the weekly hotel pep rally for another $6, attended at least one home "show the plan" meeting per week, kept track of every mile, to every meeting, and how much home/office use they've spent for tax purposes, stayed motivated by purchasing their minimum $200 per month to receive the coveted $6 PV bonus check, and building up a brand new wardrobe of ties and dress shirts to attend those prp rallies and weekly home meetings (purchased from the business of course), and gone through the laundry list of friends and relatives to prospect (who have more than likely already been hit up by an Amway IBO while standing at the magazine rack at Borders sometime in their life) before they realize they must also make time to now build the business (i.e. soliciting for prospects) which does take time, alot of time.

These are items which just doesn't seem to come across at the smoke and mirrors meetings. It's these kind of items which (I think I'm talking for the masses) really tick most people off. Because, like you, most people who join Amway either drop out or stay in for a long time but fail to make any money at all (except for their up-line). And THAT, is is the point that everyone here is trying to get accross.

C&C

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Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1734 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/18/2001 2:17 PM
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Most of the time, it isn't until after they've paid the $40 for the right to call themsleves an IBO, forked out another $200 for the Amway starter kit, added their name to the recommended reading and tape list for another $20 and $6 every other week respectively, began attending the weekly hotel pep rally for another $6, attended at least one home "show the plan" meeting per week, kept track of every mile, to every meeting, and how much home/office use they've spent for tax purposes, stayed motivated by purchasing their minimum $200 per month to receive the coveted $6 PV bonus check, and building up a brand new wardrobe of ties and dress shirts to attend those prp rallies and weekly home meetings (purchased from the business of course), and gone through the laundry list of friends and relatives to prospect (who have more than likely already been hit up by an Amway IBO while standing at the magazine rack at Borders sometime in their life) before they realize they must also make time to now build the business (i.e. soliciting for prospects) which does take time, alot of time.

...And at that point, getting out would be an admission of failure after having already devoted a great deal of time and money to this cause. This is an incredibly embarrassing step for most people to take, especially since most of their friends and family have been shown the plan and been hassled about joining, so they'll all find out. So you don't quit. Instead you make a lot of rationalizations in your own mind about how you should stay in because Amway has been so good to you, and as soon as you buckle down and really start working the business any day now, you'll be a big winner. Meanwhile, you continue to buy products for personal consumption and your upline loves you for all the money you're spending.

Making something like the Amway business work IS hard work, and there is nothing wrong with working hard to achieve a goal. But it should be a goal that you really want to achieve for your own reasons, not something that you have been tricked into wanting. I like my line of work, and I want to devote a lot of time getting better at that, not to becoming a salesman. The guy who tried to recruit me assured me that I don't have to change my life around -- just spend a few hours a week on the business. It isn't until after you start to get drawn into the support materials that you realize that this is something you will be devoting your entire life to, and by that time you might already be in it too deep to want to quit.


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Author: termagant Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1739 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/18/2001 3:51 PM
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Thats the same analogy Im using with Amway. I cannot expect to get paid if I HAVE NOT DONE MY WORK!!! Especially, I cannot expect to be paid if I am not PRODUCTIVE! How freggin clearer can that get.

YOU made a DECISION to be INVOLVED with an organization, yet YOU do NOT WORK?

I bet the other downlines are told NOT to EMULATE YOU! Lest you think I don't know what I am talking about....I used to be in AMWAY, too, about 20 years ago. Not much has changed.



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Author: LuckyBuddah One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1770 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/19/2001 9:10 PM
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So did anyone here sign up to be an Amway distrubutor?

...I almost DID.

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Author: LuckyBuddah One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1771 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/19/2001 9:11 PM
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After this legnthy discussion and all of Slash's wonderful arguments I mean...

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Author: jekkel One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1772 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/19/2001 9:37 PM
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LOL LuckyBuddah

Don't come peddling your wares around my front door (or my back door either).

-jekkel

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1777 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/20/2001 11:14 PM
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Kaz:

In response to your post in the Omnitrion case you posted, I just have been trying to understand what the document said in the first place. Thats a pretty complicated discussion which took some time for me to digest. I came to the conclusion that it just reiteretad my previous position of Amway being a legitimante MLM due to a number of elements. It reiterated that you have to use several tools when spotting a scam and not JUST your beloved rules (10 customer rule and 70% et al). I gather that you dont care that Amway has many operational differences from scams - Omnitrion. You basically believe the ONLY good tool in spotting scams are your rules. I think it has been proven that companies could actually enforce those rules and fail to avoid frontloading and headhunting. In such cases (Omnitrion), the rules are useless and meaningless. I acknowledge the rules but recognize things are much more complicated than you recognize.

Again, these are measures (10 customer rule, 70% rules)are designed to encourage sales to non IBO customers. They are a piece of a large puzzle. As stupid people think we are, we would retail with or without that rule, I just came back from selling an SA8 to an owner of an Ice Cream store and pocketed about $10 bucks. Great. It makes sense to sell to non IBO customers and we do and make an honest effort to do so.

We call it "make money now." Meaning, as we build a network of IBO's who provided a residual stream of income for us, we can make money by building a basket of non ibo customers while building that network. Amway does not enforce the 10 customer rule in the punitive fashion you want to for several reasons. First, we are not proffessional salespeople mostly. They know that fact. Second, the leaders (Direct, Diamonds et al) know if they and Amway pressure us in such a fashion, their organization will dwindle so fast they wont know what hit them. After all, IBO's are looking to escsape the pressures of a job. We are looking to get away from having a boss breathing down our neck every month in order to see if we meet some quota or have our check witheld or fired. In this case, a sales quota. What could be more anti freedom than that measure. Given that most of us are not sales proffesionals, you can guarantee your bottom dollar I would quit tomorrow if that ever happened to me. I can almost guarantee I am not alone in such feelings. However, again, we do give it an honest shot at selling to non IBO customers cause it just makes sense cause we make money by doing so. We dont need any rule to tell use that retailing is profitable. The Amway plan is designed to allow us to make money both ways (sales to IBOS and sales to NON Ibos).

Just think about the stuff we would would be tempted/forced to do to meet such punitively enforced quota. We would exert undue pressure on people just like other types of salesmen who are on quotas do if we were short on the quota. I mean, we can ill afford to harm our reputation any more than it is now. Its hard enough for me as it is to talk to people and tell them that I dont pressure anyone. The Amway plan is built to support both sales to IBO's and Non IBO customers.
We pursue both cause its smart. Usually, the people who have been in longer and gone through a certain learning curve have the largest basket of non IBO customers. Im sure you know why its that way.

I think we agree that these rules in and of themselves do not identify a scam (70% rule and 10 customer rule). They are simply pieces of a larger puzzle. As has been shown in the Onmitrion case and other cases, companies could actually technically enforce and adhere to the 70% rule and 10 customer rule and still rely on frontloading fees and headhunting fees for revenues. These rules are useless and meaningless if they dont deter frontloading and headhunting. Thats the main goal of those rules, as we know. Amway has inherent policies within the Amway Sales & Marketing Plan that in and of themselves avoid frontloading and headhunting fees. Also, any legitimate established firms have their own set of policies that make frontloading and headhunting very difficult to engage in. In this case, I focus on the specific policies of Amway.

I will try to keep things simple in my comparisons:

Ommitrio - Scams:

One time Headhunting and Frontloading charges:
The reason why they end up being one time is cause people usually can not afford to dole out the money the companies require of them. Hence, the scams usually collapse fast. As a result, people make money not from the sale of a needed product or service but from signing up new members. Usually, These charges reach the thousands of dollars (5,000-10,000+). Furthermore, they have mandatory monthly fees that members must pay in order to be considered an "IBO." The fees are usually are way excessive cause they may also reach the thousands. In essence, scams make money only when they frontload and headhunt new customers who just sign up.


Headhunting Fees: Yes.


Frontloading Fees: Yes.


70% and 10 customer rule & Buy Back rule:
Can be technically enforced and are but still not deter Frontloading and Headhunting. Its called a neat little thing in law knows as a loophole. Whats the use of the rules if they fail the purpose for which they were concocted? Thats why these rules are useless and meaningless if you use them as the sole means of identifying scams. They have to be put in context. As far as the buy back rule, some scams including Omnitrion, do not guarantee buy back of products sold to IBO's, only to non ibo customers. Thats a huge no no as your post described.

Amway:

Source of Revenue:
Sales of needed products on a monthly basis to IBO customers and non - Ibo customers (retail). In short, people ONLY buy things they need on a montly basis. $200 of household items is usually used cause its a reasonable meausure of the average household monthly expenses. Anything above $ 200 is gravy on top of a model. Thats a STARK contrast to the thousands of dollars scams require as monthly fees, Initial Headhunting fees and Initial frontloading fees. No product purchases are required in Amway from anyone in order to be an IBO. As a result, people make money not from signing anyone up but by sales of needed products either to IBO and/or non IBO customers.

Headhunting: No Headhunting.
IBOS pay annually $40 dollars to be IBOs. That covers printing and shipping of several catalogs and magazines. The introductory kit comes with introductory info, catalogs and subscription to Achieve magazine. It comes with no Amway products. It is provided all at cost by Amway. Neither Amway nor IBOs make any profits from the $40 intro kit and renewal fees. Amway and IBOS make money ONLY when IBOS purchase products they NEED to consume or sell to non ibo customers. In contrast, Scams make ALL their money from mandatory outrageous Initial Headhunting and Initial Fronloading fees.

As far as the Old Amway kit 0f $200, that was discontinued thank GOD. Only the $40 kit is used. In 1997 when I was sponsored, I had to pay $200 for the old kit. However, what made the difference (140) was basic Amway products. Today, what new IBOS do is that instead of Amway prepackaging certain products in the old kit, new IBOs simply chose what products they want to buy in their first monthly order. To me that is fine casue that old freggin kit was HEAVY as hell. I had to carry it everywere in case I had to sponsot anyone. Again, the entrance and renewal fee ($40)was and always has been provided at cost.

Fronloading:
Amway requires no upfront purchases of products by IBOS in order to be IBOs. Even the old Amway kit had a small amount of products that could easily be used and not stored as uneeded inventroy by the new IBO. Also, no one - Amway or IBOS- made or make any money from any kit whatsoever. Again, look at the contrast, scams require the purchase of thousands dollars of products which are literally impossible to use or sell. Hence, new IBO have to store unneded inventory stuff.

70% rule, 10 customer rule, buy back:

Amway is smart enough not to enforce these rules punitively as you want them to be enforced. They are used to encourage sales to non IBO customers. However, the buy back is fully enforced. Usually, IBO's and non IBO customers are given a 90 day money back guarantee. However, if and IBO quits, regardless of time elapsed after purchase, Amway will buy all Amway products back that the ex IBO wants to sell back within reason. The latter was not so with Omnitrion and most other scams. I think I covered the 10 customer rules previously. Again, these rules a useless and meaningless if they are the only policy you use in detecting scams. In fact, they are the weakest of them any.

If you put all those factors together along with others that I have not covered and balance them out, Amway is a legitimate business. You can certainly draw stark contrast from Omnitrion and other scams from Amway if you compare them over all policies and measures. Amway is a legal business and a worthy business. I guess that will always be our difference. You believe the only rule that matters is the 10 customer rule et al. You believe thats the ONLY God given and one and only measure by which to spot scams. I shaprly disagree. I think it has been demonstrated such rule can not be relied upon as the sole measure in determing the difference from scams and Amway (along with good mlms.)

Amway makes no outrageos claims. Amway says and IBOS are thought to say that IF you do this, youll receive that. We NEVER guarantee anything. Im sure some IBOS step over the line and I condiem them. However, by golly, we are 3 million souls. Its quite funny to me that I have not expereinced virtually NONE of the horror stories that some people lecture me with.




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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1778 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/20/2001 11:34 PM
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Kaz:

I see your engaged in a tirade against system expenses. Yea, youre right, they ARE tax deductible. If you do it right, every penny an IBO invest in building their business is tax deductible. That happens when your operating a LEGITIMATE business. In our case, its a home based business. Every little single expense we inccur in Amway is TAX DEDUCTIBLE. Its a nice break for all Im concerned. Second, no one puts a gun in your head to follow the reccomendations in the system, buy books, tapes et al. They are voluntary. I have not had a single iota of a problem with system expenses. They promote this and that but eventually I either reject or accept to purchase or not to purchase.

Again, I see you are engaged in a brutal generalization of us. You think Im rationalizing me staying in Amway? I would not be in this business if I thought it was not worth it. You may think I am an idiot with no brains but I am not that stupid. I have not changed my life as you imply. Several of my habits have changed but I have the same friends. I get along just as good as before with them and most rejected my offer. WOWWWOWOWOWOW, I am that extinct specie in Amway who gets along just as good with people and friends who reject my proposal when I show them the business.

People dont quit cause theyll be embarrased? Gee, many many people quit. Good for them. I dont plan on making decisions to stop or build businesseses based on what people think of me. Could it be that I am a person of my word? When I say I will BUILD something, I do it? Could it be I honor my word to my downline whom I have commited to? According to you, we are incapable of making decisions on that basis. Also, could it be I want to prove people wrong? YEA, but so what? In many endeavors people are partly fueled in order to prove people who laughed, made fun and ridiculed them saying they could not do whaetever their chose project was.

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1779 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/20/2001 11:39 PM
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Buddha:

No, thats not the point of this discussion.

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1781 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/21/2001 12:00 AM
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Term:

Term, you are COMPLETELY right. I never give any advise to my downline whatsoever. I cant cause I am not a good example for them. At least, I dont have the moral authority to tell them to do things I do not do myself. So you are right. I always reffer my downline to my upline Platinum for help. However, I especially reffer them to the training system for which I am grateful. The system teaches my downline everything that I cant teach them. Meanwhile I learn until my time is right to get started.

Term, I made a decision in 1997 that I would get involved passively in Amway. At that point, I was an entering Freshman in college. I decided that I would simply educate myself by plugging myself into PRO NET's training system for my four years of college. I decided I would start building my business seriously only AFTER my graduation from college. I graduate this coming December. Thats a decision I made and I am grateful I made that decision. Term, I was not even born when you were in Amway 20 years ago. Maybe I was a year or two. I was born in 1979, OUCH. Thats funny, at least I think so.

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Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1783 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/21/2001 12:28 AM
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Sla5sh5,

I haven't read your recent run of posts thoroughly yet, but I've noticed that your capitalized word ratio has gone way down, and your overall tone is more polite. I wanted to let you know that I really appreciate that.

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Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1785 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/21/2001 11:01 AM
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I see your engaged in a tirade against system expenses. Yea, youre right, they ARE tax deductible. If you do it right, every penny an IBO invest in building their business is tax deductible. That happens when your operating a LEGITIMATE business. In our case, its a home based business. Every little single expense we inccur in Amway is TAX DEDUCTIBLE. Its a nice break for all Im concerned.

They say this, but have you seen the IRS position on the subject?

http://www.apollowebworks.com/amway/irs.html

IRS auditors are alerted to be specifically suspicious of people who write off tools as a business expense, and it can get you in serious trouble if you're not able to justify your write-offs.

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1786 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/21/2001 6:36 PM
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Kaz:

I expect the IRS to be skeptical towards deductions claimed in our business. Abuses do occur and I hope those abusers are nailed and fined. However, one can deduct expenses within reason. Now, "within reason" is subject to opinion. I know that you can deduct business expenses if they are geared towards business related objectives. Thats why we are told to hire proffesional advice and to keep all our receipts of all the things we claim just in case the IRS comes calling. I would expect the IRS to be skeptical of our deductions since our business is so unique.
Now, I would never attend any Amway event only for "social" purposes. Thats ridiculous. If I ever stoped viewing Amway as a potentially viable opportunity for me, I would stop participating in everything. I may still purchase products but thats about all I would do. Are there people who do not plan or build their business and are in Amway only to claim deductions? Thats stupid but Im sure there are people like that out there. Those are the ones that might give us a bad name. Also, when I look at any business, its common sense that the business itself must have some potential for me to reap profits from it before I ever decide to involve myself in such project. Any tax benefits are just toppings. The IRS position is to be expected. As a result, one must use proffesional advice and keep all receipts of deduction claims to be prepared for a possible audit.

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Author: jekkel One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1787 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/21/2001 7:12 PM
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Who are you and what have you done with sla5sh5???

= )

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Author: jgiglio Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1789 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/21/2001 8:10 PM
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Kaz:
I expect the IRS to be skeptical t


Instant IQ upgrade? I guess you gave your upline your password so they can post under your name now. I tire of these games. I wish all you Amway scammers would just get off this board.

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1793 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/23/2001 1:23 PM
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Kaz:

Thanx, no problem.

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Author: eaglejd99 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1806 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/25/2001 2:17 PM
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How about

"it came with my pea see" as the second line?

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Author: Wolfshead56 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1807 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/26/2001 11:26 PM
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I had to just get this in. I started reasing this board a couple of days ago and have enjoyed a lot of the posts and was sorry I couldn't get my 2 cents in because it was too late. I am now close enough to the end of the board and only about 10 days out of date so far but I just had to make this remark. Kazim asked Slash a question or 2 quite a few posts back from where I am making this post from with the asic questions asking when was the last time Slash's upline mentioned the 10 customer rule to him which I take it to mean, how important is selling to the general public to this organization. Now Slash has written upmteen hundreds of words since then, mainly crying about how unimportant that rule is but i have noticed one thing. HE STILL HASN'T ANSWERED THE D*MNED QUESTIONS. (Sorry about the caps but thought I'ld take a line from someone else's book) Back to the point, does this mean there is no answer? Is the it possible the answer does not support the case for Am/Quix being a legit business? (snicker, snicker) Yet to see a legit business that doesn't want to sell it's products/services to someone other than it's own employees/distributors. So is there an answer to these question?

Just asking some Foolish questions

Wolfshead

PS

If somewhere in the 50 or so posts I have left to read the answer does pop up I apologize tho I still wonder why it took so long to come out

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Author: KJL3220 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1808 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/27/2001 8:19 AM
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Slash can call 1-800-FTC-HELP and see how important they think the 10 customer rule is. It's also in the Amway/Quixtar guidelines. But hey, go ahead and ignore it.

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Author: RiverCityFool Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1809 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/27/2001 9:19 AM
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An online comic with a nice perspective:

http://www.soaprope.com/d/19980720.html


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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1810 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/27/2001 5:53 PM
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KJ:

I think I have been very clear on this. If I have not been clear, I apologize. We dont ignore it. Actions we IBO's promote with encouragement of the Amway sales plan, already take care of those two measures.

I can see you pin your hopes on those two little meaningless and useless measures in order to identify scams. I understand that cause I can tell you are a fan of all the Anti Amway hate sites that threat those "rules" as the end all be all in spotting scams. I think I have pointed out that such a view is a huge mistake. One needs to put things into proper context and perspective. You single out those two meaningless rules by thesmelves. TIn doing sop, you convert make them useless. They are meaningless and useless if thats all you use in order to identify scams. They are just a piece of a puzzle.

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Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1811 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/27/2001 6:16 PM
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They are meaningless and useless if thats all you use in order to identify scams. They are just a piece of a puzzle.

Okay, we're listening. What are the OTHER pieces of the puzzle that prevent the Amway plan from being almost entirely rooted in personal consumption? Apart from the meaningless and useless rules, how does your upline guarantee that the majority of your bonus will be based on your retail sales, and therefore not a pyramid scam?

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Author: Wolfshead56 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1812 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/27/2001 8:42 PM
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Another reply that still hasn't answered the questions. From all the heming and hawing and evasiveness Kazim I suspect those rules were never even mentioned to him and that's why they aren't important but if this is the fact why doesn't he just say so instead of insisting they aren't important? If they aren't that important why can't anyone say they were never told that they were rules that were supposed to be adhered to or maybe never even told about the rules at all? Might it be because if they said that they might be admitting to violating the law?

Wolfshead

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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1813 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/27/2001 8:46 PM
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It is becoming more and more clear to me how or why slash got involved with Amway in the first place!


Slash...

Please keep posting...not for me since the entertainment factor of your posts long ago faded, but as a much better warning THAN I could EVER give anyone about staying AWAY from your scam.



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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1814 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/27/2001 9:28 PM
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Wolf:

We are told about the rules some people are not. It varies from person to person. However, the Amway plan is set up to comply with those rules without having those rules enforced punitively. Again, those rules are useless if thats all you use to spot scams, comprende? I think it has been well established that firms can adhere to the "rules" and still be scams cause they fail to serve there purpose. If rules fail to serve their purpose, what the heck are they in there for? What part of that dont you understand? Look at the big picture. You are looking at everything except the big picture.

I dont understand why you focus on these rules and not look at the big picture? I think its cause you follow the anti Amway sites message as gospel. You totally ignore the practices and features of the Amway plan that differentiate themselves from scams. However, they are not enforced in the punitive fashion people think they should be done. However, even if they were enforced punitively, that does not mean firms do not frontload and headhunt et al. Again, we adhere to those rules but when enforce those rules in a practical manner not a theoretical matter.


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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1815 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/27/2001 9:30 PM
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Wolf:

I forgot to mention that you folks make it sound like the FTC mandated those rules on Amway. The FTC mandated nothing to Amway. The looked the BIG picture not only to those two lonely rules like you folks do. You should follow the FTC's guide and look at the big picture.

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1816 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/27/2001 9:33 PM
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Todd:

Please, tell me why I got involved? Im intrigued to learn from you why I got involved. If Amway is a scam, Id take that scam over any other project.

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Author: KJL3220 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1818 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/28/2001 8:10 AM
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What makes FTC rules "meaningless", the fact that you choose to ignore it? Do the FTC rules say, "Don't mind us, we leave it up to the corporation to enforce the '10 customer rule' as they wish?" I also don't think that they identify a scam as "Violating XX% or more of said rules." The rules are there and your business could be taken away from you at any time because OF VIOLATION OF ANY ONE OF THOSE RULES (please read in Sam Kinnison-type voice). Also, I think that we are getting off the path. I will grant that Amway is a legal pyramid scheme. And let's also grant that they are good and moral in all aspects for an arguments' sake. Slash seems to be only focusing on the fact that FTC rules that define illegal pyramid scams are meaningless and are not used to define illegal pyramid scams anyway, unless every single rule is violated, that is. Let's get down to the real issues. Ready?

Here are my problems with Amway (IBO side only):

1. In order to make money it seems many people just need to "hang on" until they can get enough people under them to qualify for tape money. You don't have to successfully make money selling product; you just need to be able to bring others underneath you. Here's a real world example of how a "system" is used correctly:

My friend sells suites shares and season tickets for an NBA team. In order to help his career, he listens to tapes in his car that motivate and teach him about sales. These are not required by his corporation and the corp. is not making money off the sale of tapes. The speaker is selling his system because he has been successful in his career, this is what lends him credibility. These tapes have helped my friend increase his sales. Maybe someday he will make his own tapes and greatly increase his income, but he has to prove himself first by successfully making money.

This is where the disconnect is with Amway/Quixtar. Few people seem to make money by selling product. They make money by selling the system, and product sales are the "front" that Amway/Quixtar uplines put up. Or to put it another way, sales and recruiting are the initiation (or hazing) phase of Amway/Quixtar, once your are done with that, you can make money. I don't think that it is right to be able to make money off selling the system unless you are generating a good income from product sales and the system teaches other to do the same.

2. Brand perception. If I went to an average household talking about Amway, I would be shown the door. Maybe this is an unfair hit on Amway, but in this case, perception is reality. I would have a hard time selling people any product that has a reputation for poor quality, whether it was warranted or not. So what do I do? I don't sell it.

3. Profitability in general. It takes many standard businesses a few years to become profitable. But due to the low start-up cost of an Amway/Quixtar business, profitability should not be so long in coming. But the success rate doesn't seem to be any greater than that of a standard business. Also, it doesn't help that Amway/Quixtar's sales, profitability and market share have steadily declined over the past couple of years. I won't be the first one to jump on a sinking ship.

There is a big market out there for people who want to own and run their own business. But there are two things that prevent many people from starting one: Obtaining proper financing and long hours. Amway/Quixtar "fixes" this need and fills this market quite nicely. I personally think that it lets people in that otherwise have no right owning a business. But these are the people that are required to make the Amway/Quixtar IBO model run. If everybody was profitable, market forces would take over and margins would be diminished. But few are profitable, with the profitable attributing the failure rate to "people not having what it takes", or my favorite "our success rate is no different than in the rest of the business world." But in the meantime, they have no problem making the bulk of their money from the failures.





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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1819 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/28/2001 12:30 PM
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Keep digging

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Author: brockstoker One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1826 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/31/2001 12:42 AM
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I am a former Amway distributor. I remember when I dropped out of the business after two years of monthly meetings at high schools until the wee hours in the morning, with 2 cabinets full of motivational tapes that (to my utter surprise) none of my highly-motivated, positive upline wanted to buy at any price. I remember the sense of relief when I made the decision to let the whole thing go and get on with my life...

Much like the feeling I just got when I reached the end of this thread.

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Author: sla5sh5 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/31/2001 4:48 PM
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Brock:

Well, I have been able to "go on" with my life quite nicely thank you very much since associating myself with Amway. About refunds of tapes et al, thats like buying a grocery store and going broke and demanding a refund from the guy who sold you the store. What a bunch of non sense. Lately, I believe Systems are required to purchase some material back when you quit. I dont know what amount it is but its a reasonable amount of material. The deal is similar to how Amway purchases back the products you have when you quit if you want to sell them back. I believe Amway forced the system leaders to buy back a reasonable amount ot materials. I agree with the policy simply because of public relations. Me personally, if I ever quit, I would not expect my uplines to purchase products back from me I purchase under my own volition. However, its just good public relations.

1. http://a908.g.akamai.net/7/908/1431/b3702cf4a62bb8/akx.quixtar.com/010-en/vo/business_info/legal_bulletins/10_The_BuyBack_Rule.pdf

2. http://www.quixtar.com/010-en/vo/business_info/bestbusinessFAQ.asp#4




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Author: eaglejd99 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1843 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 7/31/2001 5:50 PM
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Much like the feeling I just got when I reached the end of this thread.

Bad news. . . as you've probably discovered, it starts again shortly.

efm

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Author: KJL3220 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1846 of 4337
Subject: Re: Great site for Amway/Quixtar prospects Date: 8/1/2001 8:01 AM
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Slash,

Please find a quote that proves that I have a childish or immature attitude. I'm the one that is trying to get past of the usual arguments that it is a scam, a cult, etc. I'm trying to debate the business and your best responses are things like "it is not a handout" and "it's capitalism at work." We all agree with that, or at least I am willing to give it to you.

Are you comparing IBO-ism with those of us who have jobs and own no business? Are you saying that jobs are handouts? I think that is flawed. I sell my talents out on the open market and I am confident enough in my abilities that if I become dissatisfied at my job, I could find another one rather easily. I'm saving and investing and haven't been Just Over Broke since I first came out of college. And I am working towards owning my own business, I just don't have the experience to do so yet. This is what lead me in a roundabout way to looking at Amway/Quixtar.

I think Amway IBOs act as though everyone in the world could own their own business and the market could sustain it. While I do agree that an individual who owns his own business has the biggest say in whether or not he is successful, the market will determine how many business owners there are. If four grocery stores are put up in a town that only needs one, the best owner will be successful, but soon there will only be one grocery store. In the Pre-Industrial Age, most people did own their own businesses (farms, blacksmiths, etc), but there is more efficiency and WEALTH in today's market due to the changes since Industrial Age began. If anybody thinks this is communism, then I must disagree like an adult.

Slash, I love it when people have a different opinion than my own. You learn more from these people. But you choose to defend Amway IBO-ism without saying why this is a good business opportunity, just that it is not a scam, or that it is capitalism, or that you CAN make money at it. Well, you can make money lots of different ways, and I think there many better ways to make money than as an Amway IBO.

Listen if your upline does not force you to buy the tapes and books of the month and is up front about the profits made from tapes, AND is up front about the % of profits made from tapes of your entire LOS, AND most of the money made in your LOS is actually made from product, then you have a good LOS. If any one of these is not true, then your LOS has questionable integrity and is SCAMMING (this is the scam board, right?) their downline. I have not heard anything from you that would make me think otherwise. If you wish to continually call my attitude or me childish or communist or whatever, fine. But you haven't been arguing my points, so you haven't given me any reason to give your point of view credibility. I've even conceded some of your points in order to move on to more important things (very childish, BTW).

Anyway, if your next post continues along the same path as your others, consider the debate over.

PS – About the Kiyosaki thing: Yes, good for him to find ways to sell more books. I love capitalism. But his books are (in my opinion) 90% garbage, which I'm sure is not unusual for a NYT bestseller (Susan Powter, The Rock, Who Stole the Cheese, etc). But I'm just saying, "buyer beware."


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