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Author: shuksan77 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 8966  
Subject: Handicap question Date: 1/28/2013 3:27 PM
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This may require some handicap geekery...

I just played in a handicapped scramble. On my team were 14, 15, 16, and 1. Playing best ball we also had a team handicap, which was 8. The club pro adds up all the handicaps and divides by 8 to get the team HCP. I think we came in at a net 62: 70 for the scramble less team HCP.

The almost-winning team was the pro, his son, and two others. Their handicaps were 2, 10, 10, and 26 with a team HCP of 6. I think they had a net 54.

The only rules were that each person has to use two drives and two second shots per side.

Now it seems to me this is not even, despite the handicaps. And the reason for this is there are too many non-tee and non-second shots for which the 2 and 10 handicappers can be used. Whereas, for us, the mid-HCP duffers, we didn't have any go-to shooters.

This would be especially true around the greens where the pro (and his son) would have an advantage of experience.

--S
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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8894 of 8966
Subject: Re: Handicap question Date: 1/28/2013 7:26 PM
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shuksan77: "This may require some handicap geekery...

I just played in a handicapped scramble. On my team were 14, 15, 16, and 1. Playing best ball we also had a team handicap, which was 8. The club pro adds up all the handicaps and divides by 8 to get the team HCP. I think we came in at a net 62: 70 for the scramble less team HCP."


What best ball? 46/4 = 11.5; where did the 8 come from?

"The almost-winning team was the pro, his son, and two others. Their handicaps were 2, 10, 10, and 26 with a team HCP of 6. I think they had a net 54."

48/4 = 12, not 6. I do not currently follow.

The only rules were that each person has to use two drives and two second shots per side.

"Now it seems to me this is not even, despite the handicaps."

I agree, but I am not exactly certain that I can elaborate. The two shots and two second shots per side evens things a little, but assuming a standard nine, 2 par 3s, 2 par 5s and 5 par 4s, there are only 7 second shots per side, unless you count puts on the par 3s.

How would yoru pro handicap a 1, 2, 3 and 30? 36/4 = 9 but a 1, 2 and 3 should be several shots under par per side. The 30 might drag the group a little but assuming decent par 3 tee shots and unreachable par 5s, you can probably find two tee shots. I am still curious about the second shot requirement.

I do not have any scramble handicap suggestions handy, but I do agree with you.

Regards, JAFO

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8895 of 8966
Subject: Re: Handicap question Date: 1/29/2013 1:03 AM
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With more time (but not vouching for any of these):

http://www.leaderboard.com/scramcap.htm

http://www.popeofslope.com/scramble/handicapping.html

http://www.popeofslope.com/scramble/index.html - Handicap each team as follows: 20% of the A-player's handicap, plus 15% of the B, 10% of the C and 5% of the D. Add the results, round off the total to a whole number and that is the team's handicap.

1(20%) + 14(15%) + 15(10%) + 16(5%) = .2 + 2.1 + 1.5 + .8 = 4.6 = 5

2(20%) + 10(15%) + 10(10%) + 26(5%) = .4 + 1.5 + 1.0 + 1.3 = 4.2 = 4

http://www.livestrong.com/article/182164-how-to-figure-handi...

Calculate each player's course handicap, which gives players a different number of strokes to compensate for greater or lesser difficulty of a course. To calculate your course handicap, multiply your handicap index by the course's USGA slope rating, divide by 113--the rating for a course of average difficulty--and round the answer to the closest whole number.

For four-person teams, the suggestions are 20 percent of player A's handicap, 15 percent of player B's handicap, 10 percent of player C's handicap and 5 percent of player D's handicap.

See also: http://www.ehow.com/how_5779661_figure-handicap-scramble-gol... for same "method"

And a long paper at:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2156552

though you need to contact the authors for the Excel spreadsheet to calculate the team handicaps (and apparently is better than USGA emthod above (20, 15, 10 and 5 percent)

Regards, JAFO

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Author: shuksan77 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8896 of 8966
Subject: Re: Handicap question Date: 1/29/2013 10:37 AM
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Oh, jeeees....

That should have been a 17 on my team, not a 1...sorry!!

I do not know why he divides by 8 and I don't know enough about this system to follow the explanation...

Sorry!!

--s

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8897 of 8966
Subject: Re: Handicap question Date: 1/29/2013 2:55 PM
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shuksan77: <<<That should have been a 17 on my team, not a 1...sorry!!

I do not know why he divides by 8>>>

From my prior post:

http://www.popeofslope.com/scramble/index.html - Handicap each team as follows: 20% of the A-player's handicap, plus 15% of the B, 10% of the C and 5% of the D. Add the results, round off the total to a whole number and that is the team's handicap.

14(20%) + 15(15%) + 16(10%) + 17(5%) = 2.8 + 2.25 + 1.6 + .85 = 7.5 = 8

2(20%) + 10(15%) + 10(10%) + 26(5%) = .4 + 1.5 + 1.0 + 1.3 = 4.2 = 4


http://www.livestrong.com/article/182164-how-to-figure-handi......

Calculate each player's course handicap, which gives players a different number of strokes to compensate for greater or lesser difficulty of a course. To calculate your course handicap, multiply your handicap index by the course's USGA slope rating, divide by 113--the rating for a course of average difficulty--and round the answer to the closest whole number.

For four-person teams, the suggestions are 20 percent of player A's handicap, 15 percent of player B's handicap, 10 percent of player C's handicap and 5 percent of player D's handicap.

See also: http://www.ehow.com/how_5779661_figure-handicap-scramble-gol...... for same "method"

Not sure why your pro picked 8, other than it makes for easy math. Some of the links I provided suggestd dividing by 5, 7 or 10 (but not 8), but without any real explanation.

Your 8 looks to be on, but the pros team should have been more like a 4 than a 6. And if the slope rating was greater than 113, the spread might have been even greater than 4 strokes. Not sure that it would have made much difference.

Regards, JAFO

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Author: NevadaGolfer Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8898 of 8966
Subject: Re: Handicap question Date: 2/3/2013 3:41 AM
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I'll take that team of a 1, 14, 15, 16 over a team of 2, 10, 10, and 26 anytime with those rules. Being forced to use 2 drives and 2 second shots per side with a 26'er is going to be crippling. The 10's aren't that much better than the 14-16 guys but 14-16 is a world of difference from a 26.

Also, how in the world did your team shoot a 70? The 1 handicap should be right around there by himself. Clearly your team made absolutely no putts and everyone including the 1 played awful. That is simply a mind bogglingly bad round. The expected score for your team with those players should have been around 58-63 for a net of 50-55.

The other team played pretty good but hardly exceptional. Clearly the 26'er had some nice shots for them to to shoot a 60.

I used to play several scrambles a year back when I was a solid 2. At the company tournament every year there would be arguments over who got me so I'd just play with a different trio in my department each year. I think the worst my team ever shot was a 64 and the best was a 60. It was generally me and three guys in the mid to high 20's handicaps. Rarely was I playing with someone who could break 100 honestly on an average course.

I've played scrambles with 3 75+ year old men none of which could drive it more than 175 yards who are all 30+ handicaps and shot in the mid 60's. One good player in the 1-3 handicap range should basically guarantee no worse than par on any hole with a reasonable or better birdie chance on most holes.

That is just unfathomable how your team shot a 70. Take out the 1 handicap entirely and a 3 man scramble team of a 14, 15, and 16 should still break par by a bit.

I can't imagine how frustrating that round must have been.

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Author: 5xSiKOChamp Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8906 of 8966
Subject: Re: Handicap question Date: 4/8/2013 5:19 PM
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In England playing a 4 man team scramble you would have got 1/10th of combined handicap and each player would have to drive 4 times leaving 2 spares.

No stipulation on second shots.

You would have had 4.6 and the opposition 4.8 shots.

Why has the Pro got a handicap of 2? And why can he compete in club competitions?

Si

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