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Has anyone listened to the call? What's their 2013 guidance for Europe? I believe they just lowered guidance for Europe to a $1.5B loss for 2012. Through 9 mos. they've lost just over a billion in Europe. That means that Q4 is expected to be as bad as Q3. I'd be interested to know if that includes charges on plant closures and other 1 offs, or if they expect Q4 to be as bad excluding special items. If that were the case, then you'd have to expect this to last well into 2013.

The other question is are they losing share in SA? They're positive on margins again, but is that just due to discipline on pricing. Is dumping by other manufacturers just wrecking that market, or are we seeing some nominal pricing discipline by everyone?

I haven't listened to the call yet and probably will later today.

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