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Hi folks!

I asked to start this board so that Pagans who frequent the Fool boards could have a place to discuss financial and other issues related to Paganism.

For the purpose of this forum, consider "pagan" to mean an adherent of a poly- or pantheistic earth-centered religion. This would include Wiccans, Druids, Asatru and many others too numerous to go into. The defining characteristic is not which goddesses or gods one reveres but a rooting of one's spirituality in the physical world.

This doesn't mean you have to be Pagan to post here, but this board is not intended as a forum to debate the merits of any one religion or group of religions relative to others. Pagans already know about the world's major religions (most of us used to be in them and have rejected them)and have chosen to tread the path less traveled.

Some of the issues we could discuss on this board include:

1) Is money spiritual?
2) Living lightly - environmental issues.
3) Community centers (local Pagan groups) and how to organize them.
4) Paid clergy?
5) Keeping down the cost of ritual supplies.
6) Pagan parenting.
7) Social issues.
8) Political issues.

I'm sure we'll find other things to discuss.

Be civil, don't try to convert anyone, and try to respect others' opinions even if you disagree with them. Have fun!

And don't feed the trolls :)

Blessings,
El
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Thanks for starting this board, Jhereg. I have lurked on occasion on the Christian and Atheist boards, and I was wondering if there would be enough support here for a Pagan board.

Amphian
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Thanks for starting this board, Jhereg. I have lurked on occasion on the Christian and Atheist boards, and I was wondering if there would be enough support here for a Pagan board.

Amphian


Time will tell. Glad to have you aboard, Amphian :)

I was surprised that there wasn't one already, as I know several people who have "come out" in this forum. But, in my experience, Pagans and money don't mix well. It doesn't have to be that way... money, after all, is society's accepted means of (personal) energy exchange. As energy is abundant, why shouldn't we tap into the flow? :)

El
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But, in my experience, Pagans and money don't mix well. It doesn't have to be that way... money, after all, is society's accepted means of (personal) energy exchange. As energy is abundant, why shouldn't we tap into the flow?

I keep hearing that there are a lot of "Techno-Pagans", who should, theoretically, have a reasonable income, but none of my coworkers have ever been Pagan (as far as I know).

Amphian
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W00t! This is great! I had considered starting up "The Broom Closet", but really didn't think there were that many of us around. I didn't even want to jump to conclusions about IshtarAstarte even though that's a pretty freakin' witchy name. =)

- Kilbia
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Hi all! Not actually Pagan myself, but I'm definitely closer to the earthy, spiritual side of things than I am to any organized religion. Plus, many of my friends are Pagan/Wiccan/etc so I identify with the community.

Anwyay, just wanted to pipe up and say I know dozens of folks that are "Techno-Pagans", if I'm understanding the word correctly. Many of my friends are Pagan or Wiccan and working successfully in the high-tech industry. In fact, I went to two Wiccan weddings last fall of young, successful business folks. It's nice to go to a wedding and have the ceremony inlcude praising of goddesses or chants to North, South, East, and West. :)

Rebecca
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Excellent!

Merry meet all!

My life is fairly schizo, but never dull!

I am a liberal wiccan tax accountant, daughter of a Jew, wife of a conservative Catholic.

I'm here to tell ya, I think being pagan and making money go together great! Especially when I have to write the mortgage check every month. =0)

I am extremely pleased to find a board like this.

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Glad to have you aboard, ataxwitch.

I know a Wiccan tax accountant who lives in Virginia. Not you, is it? :)

Anyway, enjoy the ride!

Peace,
El
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I know a Wiccan tax accountant who lives in Virginia. Not you, is it? :)

Eerie. I am in fact in Virginia. But probably not the Wiccan Tax Accountant you are thinking of. Still... Merry Meet and thanks for the welcome.

ataxwitch
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The one I'm thinking of was ordained at the same time I was, December 2000, by the Order of Melchizedek. She runs Phase Accounting, which I believe is in Staunton or somewhere nearby and has a really cool triple-moon logo.

(side note: I know a lot of people think the waxing, full, waning triple-moon symbol is a Goddess representation - maiden, mother, crone - but I prefer to view it as the Goddess and the God (the crescents) partially reflecting the One Source (the full moon). A bit more balanced that way :) )

Peace,
El

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ataxwitch,

Merry meet and Blessed Be.

Do you give discounts to Pagans?

tennisdeighter
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Nice to meet you!

Ishtar
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Delighted to discover this board! Thanks to IshtarAstarte for posting the link on another board so I could find it.

I am generally pretty closed-mouthed about my beliefs since I am not an argumentative person and I believe in letting everyone travel their own path. I am quite happy with my solitary practice, but it will be nice to be able to do some "cyber-circling" for a change.

I am happy to learn that there are several of us at the Fool, and I look forward to getting better acquainted with all of you.

Regards,

Rider
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Welcome, Rider! Glad to have you aboard.

Peace,
El
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Delighted to discover this board! Thanks to IshtarAstarte for posting the link on another board so I could find it.

Nice to meet you, and you are most welcome! We're not too active here yet, but we're growing!

Ishtar

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(side note: I know a lot of people think the waxing, full, waning triple-moon symbol is a Goddess representation - maiden, mother, crone - but I prefer to view it as the Goddess and the God (the crescents) partially reflecting the One Source (the full moon). A bit more balanced that way :) )

Since the one-sided misogynist nature of my ancestors faith is what caused my to look outside of Judaism and find wicca, I have to say, I like your interpretation of the triple moon symbol a LOT.

Blessed be
ataxwitch

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I know a lot of people think the waxing, full, waning triple-moon symbol is a Goddess representation - maiden, mother, crone - but I prefer to view it as the Goddess and the God (the crescents) partially reflecting the One Source (the full moon). A bit more balanced that way :)

El --

As a shameless, hard-core eclectic, I hereby proclaim this Good Enough To Steal! (GETS - could be our first board acronym, non?)

Shine brightly,

Rider
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Since the one-sided misogynist nature of my ancestors faith is what caused my to look outside of Judaism and find wicca, I have to say, I like your interpretation of the triple moon symbol a LOT.

Thanks :) Maybe it's because my family is Jewish too :)

I understand some Orthodox men have as part of their daily prayers: "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the Universe, who maketh me not a woman."

On the other hand, I'm not sure that Judaism is entirely one-sided. If you look hard enough you can see traces of the pre-monotheistic Hebrew paganism in the tradition. Welcoming the Shabbat as the Bride; the concept of the feminine as the spiritual center of the household; the lunar calendar; the unabashed nature-fertility aspects of Pesach, Shavuot, and Sukkot, for examples.

Besides, I can't be very critical of a religion that has a holiday (Purim) where the idea is to get so drunk that you can't tell the good guys from the bad guys. (And has anyone else noticed the linguistic similarities between Esther and Ishtar; Mordechai and Marduk?)

Then there's the Hebrew word Elohim, which in most translations of the Tanach is translated as "God". Now, I'm not a Hebrew scholar by any means so don't take my word as gospel (so to speak) on this but, 'Elohim' is the second word of what we call Genesis: B'resheet Elohim...; In the beginning, God... El is a generic name for a god, but affixing an -oh onto an otherwise masculine inflected word results in a feminine construction, while the -im suffix is a masculine plural (note: Hebrew inflects nearly every group noun to the masculine, even if the group refers to mixed female and male constituents (I almost said "members" :) ), so the masculine plural is linguistically expected here). The point is, though, that it's a plural, which suggests that perhaps it should be translated as "In the beginning, the goddesses and gods created..."

Whatever. I'm only Jewish by heritage these days, so it's no more than an intellectual exercise (I'm also an Aquarius) to me.

Shalom,
El
:)
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As a shameless, hard-core eclectic, I hereby proclaim this Good Enough To Steal! (GETS - could be our first board acronym, non?)

I'm flattered :)

I'll probably never get credit for suggesting it, but if it catches on that'll be reward enough for me. I'd be proclaiming it from street corners if I thought it'd do any good. I have had hard-core Dianic-types give me the Death Glare(TM) for daring to suggest such a thing, but in most of the Pagan circles (so to speak) that I frequent, the idea has been well-received.

Peace,
El

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I understand some Orthodox men have as part of their daily prayers: "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the Universe, who maketh me not a woman."

This is true at the high holy days. Don't know about daily prayers but it wouldn't surprise me. Apparently the women have an alternate prayer that says "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the Universe, who maketh me a woman." This is fine with me, I enjoy being a girl.

I find the whole thing kind of funny. Organized religion has become so patriarchal, but there are some texts which indicate the Jesus was a member of the Essene sect of Judaism. In addition to being almost xenophobic, this particular sect worshipped both the father and the mother on alternate days. hmmmm.... somebody left that out of the New Testament, no?

I think the first time I really grokked the problem was when I found out that there is a Hebrew word for the feminine aspect of God. The word is Shechinah (sp?) and is only found in the Kabbalic texts which women, traditionally aren't allowed to read. Although now, of course you can get public copies of alot of it.

Thou art God
ataxwitch
(Robert Heinlein LIVES!)
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Thou art God
(Robert Heinlein LIVES!)


I grok that!

Ishtar
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I think the first time I really grokked the problem was when I found out that there is a Hebrew word for the feminine aspect of God. The word is Shechinah (sp?) and is only found in the Kabbalic texts which women, traditionally aren't allowed to read. Although now, of course you can get public copies of alot of it.

That spelling is as good as any transliteration I've seen. There's also the concept of Sophia, which the Gnostics were/are fond of; it means "wisdom" and is considered a feminine aspect of Divinity. The Kabbala is more balanced than "traditional" Judaism anyway, with the Tree of Life being perfectly balanced between the masculine and feminine. Which, of course, was the inspiration for my interpretation of the Triple Moon in the first place.

Thou art God

I am only an egg.

(Robert Heinlein LIVES!)

You know, Mr. Heinlein probably influenced my life more than anyone else. If there is any regret in my life, it's that I can't go up to him and thank him, and even if I could, I couldn't thank him enough. I read Stranger at a very early age and it warped my mind -- in a good way. But read Expanded Universe sometime - he had serious problems with the resurgence of witchcraft, and yes, he had researched it. I think he saw it as an abdication of logic and reason for "softer" pursuits and the supernatural.

Which puts the real-life Church of All Worlds in rather a bind, no? :)

I can't agree with everything he's put to paper, but when all is said and done he was one of the most influential thinkers of the 20th century.

Peace,
El
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I can't agree with everything he's put to paper, but when all is said and done he was one of the most influential thinkers of the 20th century.

Another thing to like about you!

He HATED C.A.W. He couldn't believe someone founded a "real" religion on the book he HATED the most. (Did you know he hated Stranger?) In some of his later books, he jokes about it ("the things some people write for money!" he says; can't remember which book.)

But his works GREATLY influenced me, at a young age. I've had a difficult time coming to grips with our societies insistance on monogamy. A group marriage or S-group just seems so. . . practical! (until you try to get real, modern people involved!)

Ishtar

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I grok that!

Ishtar


I knew there was a reason I liked you.

t.
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I knew there was a reason I liked you.

blush

Ishtar

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,i>He HATED C.A.W. He couldn't believe someone founded a "real" religion on the book he HATED the most. (Did you know he hated Stranger?) In some of his later books, he jokes about it ("the things some people write for money!" he says; can't remember which book.)

I'm pretty sure it was Number of the Beast.

t.

had a crush on Zeb for the longest time ...
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had a crush on Zeb for the longest time ...

Hilda: oh, Zebbie, hold me!
*grin*
Ishtar
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::gigglesnort::

Now I gotta wipe the pretzels off my monitor!

Good one, Ish (hey, tall honey blonde sculpted from marshmallow??????)

I have, from day one, pictured you as Heinlein's Ishtar.

t.
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I have, from day one, pictured you as Heinlein's Ishtar.

How flattering!
I'm only 5'3", but I think "sculpted from marshmallow" fits (I'm soft around the edges!)

Ishtar

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Things You Probably Wish You Didn't Know:

Legend has it that Stranger was written as part of a contest to see who could come up with the weirdest religion. Crowley somehow had his finger in the pot too. I guess Heinlein figured that a Martian religion, requiring Martian thought to implement, would be the weirdest possible religion.

The other contestant?

Fellow science fiction writer L. R on Hub bar d. (spacing to foil keyword searches)

He also found great amusement in writing about a Martian named Smith.


As for "The things some people write for money!", that's from (I think) The Number of the Beast.


I, personally, am monogamous. Not because society tells me I have to be but because that's how I'm most comfortable. I support the idea of group marriages, however, for whomever can make them work. I wouldn't be able to. I'm probably not evolved enough, but I don't care; it's not for me. Give me one woman whom I can love fully, and who loves me completely, and I'll magnify that love (but not sexually) with others. "The more you love, the more you can love, and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just."

Peace,
El
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Well, dangit, I haven't been a pagan for a long time, but with all you Heinlein fans about, I think I'll stick around.

(c:

hugs,
t.
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The other contestant?

Fellow science fiction writer L. R on Hub bar d. (spacing to foil keyword searches)


I've always thought that he created that religion as a joke, and always meant to tell people it was a joke. Then he realized how much money he was making.

Ishtar
(who grew up in Scientology Central - Clearwater, FL.) Oooops, mentioned something that will show up in a keyword search!

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You know, Mr. Heinlein probably influenced my life more than anyone else. If there is any regret in my life, it's that I can't go up to him and thank him, and even if I could, I couldn't thank him enough. I read Stranger at a very early age and it warped my mind -- in a good way.

Hmmm yes, but have you read "Number of the Beast"? His opinion of Stranger wasn't very good. Apparently he only wrote for the money but "anyone who says he's writing for any other reason is a liar" (not a direct quote but should be fairly close). I found that opinion reassuring since I was very disappointed in the end of Stranger. But then I was disappointed in the end of Number too.

ataxwitch
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Well, dangit, I haven't been a pagan for a long time, but with all you Heinlein fans about, I think I'll stick around.

Well, I Wood(row) hope that you'd stick around for a Long time. We'll try not to be too Harsh(aw). After all, we just want to do our Job, and celebrate on Friday. We'll look for some Maur(een) Pixels from you.

Sorry,
El :)
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You haven't, by any chance, read "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon" have you?

See you next Punday night.

t.
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Did you know he hated Stranger?

I believe he hated Stranger because of the way his editors made him cut it. A few years ago (soon after his death) his wife published the book as he had originally written it. Not much changed until you reached the end where Jubal talks to Mike after Mike's death.

The other book he hated was Podkayne of Mars and that was for the way he was forced to rewrite the ending.

"the things some people write for money!"

He also wrote in the Sayings of Laserus Long that writing is an ok hobby as long as you do it in private and wash your hands afterward.
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Well, I Wood(row) hope that you'd stick around for a Long time. We'll try not to be too Harsh(aw). After all, we just want to do our Job, and celebrate on Friday. We'll look for some Maur(een) Pixels from you.

Oh, the puns!!! Have you read Spider Robinson's Callahan books? We ought to have a Punday night here. . .

Ishtar

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You haven't, by any chance, read "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon" have you?

See you next Punday night.


Talk about on the same wavelength!!

Ishtar

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Ishtar
(who grew up in Scientology Central - Clearwater, FL.) Oooops, mentioned something that will show up in a keyword search!


You're in trouble now. Oops, so am I :)

Ever wonder if it was a coincidence that the last part of Stranger took place in St. Petersburg, Florida?

I don't believe in coincidence.

By the way, I've been hoping for a Stranger in a Strange Land movie. I know, I know, never happen -- but I wonder who would be cast.

My votes:

Jubal Harshaw - Jack Nicholson
Valentine Michael Smith - Matt Damon
Jill - Gillian Anderson

any other ideas? :)

El
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Oh my ... This is going to be good.

Is Jake out there playing guitar somewhere??

t.
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You haven't, by any chance, read "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon" have you?

Guilty. I had to have something to read after Heinlein sailed beyond the sunset...

Go, Lemmings, Go!

El
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Jubal Harshaw - Jack Nicholson
Valentine Michael Smith - Matt Damon
Jill - Gillian Anderson


not sure Jack is fat enough for Harshaw. . . mmmm, Catherine Zeta-jones as Ann/Anne? hmmmm Jeannine Garafalo (sp!!) as oh, what's her name that fights with/marries the Muslim guy? Starts with an M??

Ishtar

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He HATED C.A.W. He couldn't believe someone founded a "real" religion on the book he HATED the most. (Did you know he hated Stranger?) In some of his later books, he jokes about it ("the things some people write for money!" he says; can't remember which book.)

Well, he may have joked about it in more than one place - but I seem to remember that quote from "The Number of the Beast".

My favorite story about it is apocrypha from the SCA...
"A student was assigned to write a paper about the socialogical reasons that R. Heinlein wrote 'Stranger in a Strange Land', so she did some research. Her paper had one line: 'Uncle Bobby says he did it for the money'. The student was the daughter of Poul Anderson..."
Can't vouch for it's validity, but it's more than possible...

That being said, it's still an amazing book...

Maureen
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Valentine Michael Smith - young Nicholas Cage
Ben - John Cusak
Jill - Renee Zwhatshername
Jubal - don't know, but I just don't like Jack Nicholson ...
Anne - Gillian Anderson

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Oh! The guy that's currently playing Nero Wolfe on A&E would be great as Jubal; I think he's got the right "gruffness" and could hear him yelling, "Front!"

Ishtar
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Miriam (or is that what Stinky called her?)
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But then I was disappointed in the end of Number too.

<grin> I always take comfort in the (possibly faulty) knowledge that he had his first stroke while writing Number... because, for me, there's a *huge* disconnect at the end of the book, where it just doesn't work. I had less of a problem with Stranger, but then, I also have the Unexpurgated version in hardcover...

Maureen
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Well, I Wood(row) hope that you'd stick around for a Long time. We'll try not to be too Harsh(aw). After all, we just want to do our Job, and celebrate on Friday. We'll look for some Maur(een) Pixels from you.

Euwww! Euwww! Euwww!

For shame! Twenty lashes with a wet noodle!

Are you sure you're a Heinlein fan and not a Spider Robinson fan?
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Miriam (or is that what Stinky called her?)

It might be Miriam, I think he called her Maryam. thanks!

Ishtar
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Miriam (or is that what Stinky called her?)

Yes, Miriam... Stinky called her Maryam, in retaliation for "Mohammedean"...

Maureen
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My votes:
Jubal Harshaw - Jack Nicholson
Valentine Michael Smith - Matt Damon
Jill - Gillian Anderson


My votes

Jubal Harshaw - Sean Connery
Valentine - don't know his name but he played Sherlock Holmes in "Young Sherlock Holmes"
Jill - Sandra Bullock
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I, personally, am monogamous. Not because society tells me I have to be but because that's how I'm most comfortable. I support the idea of group marriages, however, for whomever can make them work. I wouldn't be able to. I'm probably not evolved enough, but I don't care; it's not for me.

This is pretty much my position as well. I don't see why the government regulates marriages anyway. IMHO, there are two aspects to a marriage - the legal/contractual side and the spiritual side. The spiritual side is none of the government's business anyway. The legal/contractual side should have a minimum of government regulation, such as requiring clauses to deal with issues such as what happens to kids in the case of divorce. Other than that, whatever consenting adults agree to in a contract should be up to them.

Amphian
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there are two aspects to a marriage - the legal/contractual side and the spiritual side

I think the problem is that even people who aren't religious think of it only in the spiritual sense and forget that it's a legal contract.

Ishtar
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The only books my husband and I have in common are the Callahan's

We recently purchased a backwards running clock and I made a sign for the basement powder room that reads "Folks" a la Callahans. Spider Robinson truly is Heinleins heir

ataxwitch
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By the way, I've been hoping for a Stranger in a Strange Land movie. I know, I know, never happen -- but I wonder who would be cast.

There can never be a "Stranger" movie for one simple reason. The voice would give away which of Jubal's harem was involved in Mike's initial experiment with women.

Amphian
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