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Ok, so... I think whether you believe in a Creator or not, there is one issue that is hard grasp. If no one created matter, then it has always existed, right? And if someone did create matter, where did that someone come from? That someone had to always exist.

So, how could something just always have existed? It makes no sense, I'm telling ya!

Just mid-afternoon ponderings,

orangeblood
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Rex:

Right! Most of your question isn't too hard. The part I really have trouble with is this:

What does "always" mean?

j
z
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the creator is, was, and always will be.....the singular gift of a human consciousness is evidence enuff off a Lord who is involved....and the ability of man to abide and overcome where lower forms crawl away to croak is another example of His work......to not search out mysteries is to waste life completely...spirituality in all it's forms is is the path to the door with the light behind it....there are many roads....but only one door.....t-rat
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the creator is, was, and always will be.....the singular gift of a human consciousness is evidence enuff off a Lord who is involved....and the ability of man to abide and overcome where lower forms crawl away to croak is another example of His work......to not search out mysteries is to waste life completely...

Rat... I agree!

No matter what one believes, it is apparent that something has always existed. This is the concept I'm interested in discussing.

Can anyone grasp it?

orangeblood
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<<No matter what one believes, it is apparent that something has always existed. This is the concept I'm interested in discussing.

Can anyone grasp it?>>

Well, I think it might just be too big for our limited human brains to really grasp. All we can do, for the most part, is see the world through our own eyes. I suspect that there is a LOT we can't see or perceive or imagine or understand. Especially anything God-like. How could we even begin to fathom who God is and where God came from?

I don't mean to be a party-pooper, though -- it *is* an interesting and challenging thing to ponder. I just would never expect us to ever hit on the correct answer.

For example, you're intrigued by how something could have always existed. But perhaps we're just limited by thinking something has to exist or not exist. Perhaps, coming at it from some angle we've never used or known about before, it makes perfect sense.

Selena
(excuse me -- I'm not normally the deepest of thinkers.)
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I don't mean to be a party-pooper, though -- it *is* an interesting and challenging thing to ponder. I just would never expect us to ever hit on the correct answer.

Oh, I don't think so either! If we did, we'd make history. ;)


For example, you're intrigued by how something could have always existed. But perhaps we're just limited by thinking something has to exist or not exist. Perhaps, coming at it from some angle we've never used or known about before, it makes perfect sense.

Very good, I like that. This suggests, and I believe, that there is something out there that is beyond our capability to understand. I wonder if it's a whole other area that's not bound by "our" laws of physics.


Selena
(excuse me -- I'm not normally the deepest of thinkers.)


I think you did great... you have the best answer thus far. ;)

orangeblood
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"Very good, I like that. This suggests, and I believe, that there is something out there that is beyond our capability to understand. I wonder if it's a whole other area that's not bound by "our" laws of physics."

The one thing that has ALWAYS been is TRUTH. It is the ONE thing. It is beyond our comprehension. It is the one thread that has always existed and from it all thing were created by the keeper of the TRUTH.

We will know the TRUTH when we pass from this dimension to the next, we cannot handle it with our finite minds at this time.

I will reveal more on my next visit.

wxgesr


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<< I will reveal more on my next visit.>>

Well thank you for revealing this much now! :)

Selena
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the creator is, was, and always will be.....the singular gift of a human consciousness is evidence enuff off a Lord who is involved

rat, You've made a lot of wonderful contributions around here, but that little post was one of your best, I think.

And Orangeblood, I don't have any trouble with the existence of the Creator. In fact, my bitty brain can't see how I could have come to exist without (Him).

And Selena, there IS a whole lot we don't understand, and so my inability to grasp the concept of infinity isn't troubling. It's just one of the many that got away from me if I ever had it. Lots of folks seem to have a problem accepting God because they don't grasp Him fully. That's where my dog, Buster comes in...he's great. There's a lot he just doesn't get, but he's willing to rely on me for much of it.

It's been a good lesson. I will never know what always means, but I have that one inkling. It's the depth of my ignorance. But I know that light is there behind that door.

jz
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And Orangeblood, I don't have any trouble with the existence of the Creator.

Neither do I, jz.

I started this thread to see if anyone had ideas about the concept that something has *always* existed. I've enjoyed the answers so far!

Cheers,

orangeblood
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SOMETHING has always existed. The problem is we cannot understand yet what it is.

If we catch a glimpse of what that SOMETHING is, we will go insane....short circuit if you will.

Since we use only 10% of our computing powers, too much information will fry us.


Until I come up with something better,
wxgesr
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<<SOMETHING has always existed. The problem is we cannot understand yet what it is. >>

It's interesting. Somehow we're wired to think that everything must come from somewhere. That things can't simply have *been* forever. But maybe that's one of our failings. Maybe lots of things that we know nothing of have always been. And we're just in a world/mindset where we erroneously expect that everything comes from somewhere.

Who knows... :)

Selena
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Our personal concepts and theories of physics play a stong role in shaping our concept of reality, god and creation.

Many people consider it obvious that time has flowed on forever in both directions. But the theory of relativity shows that time and space can be distorted by matter and energy. Time may not be able to be defined before a certain point of singularity: the big bang. To talk about who or what created the big bang implies that there was a time before that barrier...

When this was understood, for many, their science outran their philosophy.

Then there is Stephen Hawking's theory of imaginary time: Time is divided to two components, imaginary and real. Imaginary time is continuous but the real time vanishes at singularity and becomes a spatial dimension. Time and space shrink together and become indistinguishable. Our universe, in the direction of imaginary time, is closed and uniform. It has no boundary or edge (just like a surface of the earth). The universe will eventually collapse again but the arrow of time will not reverse.....

According to Russian-born cosmologist Andrei Linde, infinite number of universes are created all the time. Tiny bubbles of energy (just like the bubbles on the surface of the boiling water) are being produced and inflating into universes all the time. Our universe would be one of those tiny bubbles inflating and evolving into the one we live in....

How do we reconcile any or all of these with our personal beliefs? For me it doesn't matter which if any of these theories are fact because that doesn't change my inner feeling that I am both a part of the universe and the whole of the universe.
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Oblood,

Funny meeting you here. ;)

I started this thread to see if anyone had ideas about the concept that something has *always* existed.

We don't have to truly grasp and comprehend infinity, IMO. There's no alternative to infinity, going both forward and backward in space and in time. How could it be any different? Can anyone disagree with this statement?


JohnVibes1,

Then there is Stephen Hawking's theory of imaginary time: Time is divided to two components, imaginary and real. Imaginary time is continuous but the real time vanishes at singularity and becomes a spatial dimension. Time and space shrink together and become indistinguishable. Our universe, in the direction of imaginary time, is closed and uniform. It has no boundary or edge (just like a surface of the earth). The universe will eventually collapse again but the arrow of time will not reverse..... -JohnVibes1

Is Hawking saying that imaginary time is like a vector? Space and real time are infinitessimal but imaginary time is a vector? Perhaps I'm too dense to see how that can be. Can you expand on that?

It has no boundary or edge (just like a surface of the earth)

So all these universes are spherical? What contains the universes? Another spherical entity? What's on the outside of it? Are there more of these? Where do we stop with this one?

For me it doesn't matter which if any of these theories are fact because that doesn't change my inner feeling that I am both a part of the universe and the whole of the universe.

This is beautiful, and I feel some of the same sentiment about the awesomeness of being a part of the whole, but how do you feel yourself to "be" the whole of the universe? And on another note, is it just this universe you feel you are? Or all the others? I'm not being rude, I'm honestly wondering how people feel this way. I've heard the sentiment repeatedly.

Ok, so now my brain hurts.

Amy

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Oblood,

Funny meeting you here. ;)


Hi!


We don't have to truly grasp and comprehend infinity, IMO.

Agreed. In fact, I'm not sure it's possible.


There's no alternative to infinity, going both forward and backward in space and in time. How could it be any different? Can anyone disagree with this statement?

Actually, many do disagree with this, as referenced by JohnVibes1:

Time may not be able to be defined before a certain point of singularity: the big bang. To talk about who or what created the big bang implies that there was a time before that barrier...


I would give you more details, but my Big Bang Theory book is packed away. (Seriously, it is.) If I recall, the gist of the argument goes something like this: "Neither space nor time existed before the singularity, so is not meaningful to ask what existed before then." Suffice it to say that I am disappointed in that particular explanation.

Thanks, Amy and John, for extending this conversation. I feel we're making real progress and will have something to present to some scientific journals in short order. ;)

orangeblood
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It has no boundary or edge (just like a surface of the earth)

So all these universes are spherical? What contains the universes? Another spherical entity? What's on the outside of it? Are there more of these? Where do we stop with this one?


"The geometry of the no-boundary universe would be similar to the geometry of the surface of a sphere, except it would have four dimensions instead of two. You can travel completely around Earth's surface, for instance, without ever running into an edge. In this analogy, unfolding in imaginary time, Earth's North Pole represents the Big Bang, marking the start of the universe. (But just as the North Pole is not a singularity, neither is the Big Bang)." Stephen Hawking

For me it doesn't matter which if any of these theories are fact because that doesn't change my inner feeling that I am both a part of the universe and the whole of the universe.

This is beautiful, and I feel some of the same sentiment about the awesomeness of being a part of the whole, but how do you feel yourself to "be" the whole of the universe? And on another note, is it just this universe you feel you are? Or all the others? I'm not being rude, I'm honestly wondering how people feel this way. I've heard the sentiment repeatedly.


I guess the core of my thoughts is that it is a paradox: I am both a single person (with thoughts and feelings) and the sum total of everything I visualize and understand (my environment, society, nature, scientific concepts). Another paradox: I am in total control of my life and destiny, yet my life is swept along by circumstances out of my control.

John M
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Universes from the flat earth, through the big-bang and imaginary to oscillating:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/universes/html/univ.html


John M
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Universes from the flat earth, through the big-bang and imaginary to oscillating:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/universes/html/univ.html


Hey John,

I think the folks at PBS and Hawking must be reading our thread:

"...where did it all come from? Did the universe have a beginning, a moment of creation? Or had the universe existed forever?"

If we discover the answer here, they better give us the credit and not Stephen Hawking. ;)

orangeblood
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I suppose we could just go ahead and ask Stephen Hawking to join us in this discssion. From A Brief History of Time:

"So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator [the cosmological argument]. But if the universe is really completely self- contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?"(pp. 140- 1).


Of course, he's getting into that unexplainable "it's always been here" thing. <sigh>

orangeblood
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