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Author: DBelcher Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 884326  
Subject: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 10:54 AM
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I work with a girl who along with her husband are the "Poster Children" for not LYBM.

They make a combined income of wwll over $100,000 per year, she as a financial analyst and he as a small business owner. They also have income from rental properties that they own. Here are some of their bad habits to avoid.

They live in an expensive house (250K to 300K) in an exclusive suburb.

They have a 25k car and just bought a 40k Sport Utility Vehicle with leather interior and a TV and VCR.

They pay someone to clean thier house and water their house plants.

They have an account with their dry cleaner and their monthly bill runs between $50 and $100 per month.

They never balance their check book, insteading letting checks roll over to their line of credit.

They are UAW's as defined in "The Millionaire Next Door."

Dave.
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Author: sam4d Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1748 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 11:03 AM
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They have a 25k car and just bought a 40k Sport Utility Vehicle with leather interior and a TV and
VCR.

Will someone PLEASE explain this to me. My neighbor works in Burnham (makes Monson look like NYC-no power lines on some roads) and need 4x4 in the winter as it is a long wait if you leave the road there. Why are people in cities and warm climates buying these gas guzzeling, insurance intensive, bone jarring crates?
Stan

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Author: Helter Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1751 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 11:08 AM
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Why people in cities buy SUV's:

1. they are in style
2. you can no longer see where you are going when you are driving a car, since you are surrounded by everyone else's SUV's. Its kindof a height contest, I think it 3 years we'll see trucks like Bigfoot(the car crushing monster truck) cruising city streets.
3. safety. Ever see a Lincoln Navigator collide with a hyundai accent, I haven't - but I'll bet its not a pretty sight. Its also now a weight contest. A few years ago, we had many bad drivers in light cars, now they are all navigating tanks.
4. gas is cheap. I can't wait to see how cheap these trucks end up in the aftermarket when fuel prices rise again(its got to happen some day, right?).

I remember the days when Honda's Civic CRX HF was advertising close to 60 mpg, I really wanted one(that was before I drove), now I'd be frightened to drive one, and I guess you might be able to see while driving that, since you could see UNDER most of these SUV's. Of course, they may not see you.

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Author: RecoveringFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1753 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 11:15 AM
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How do you know they are UAW - do you know their income and net worth ?

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Author: cable666 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1754 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 11:16 AM
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>>They live in an expensive house (250K to 300K) in an exclusive suburb.<<

Sounds pretty darn reasonable to me, especially on $100K+ a year income. In my part of the state, "Starter" 2bd/1ba run down 50 year old tract homes start at $300K. If you want 3 bedrooms and 2 baths, start with at least $450K.









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Author: RecoveringFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1755 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 11:20 AM
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>>They live in an expensive house (250K to 300K) in an exclusive suburb.<<
Median in Denver is now close to 200 K. With 100K income and 20% down, 250K is in the ballpark. Do we really want to be judging other people here ? If you knew where I live, you'd probably have doubts but it wouldn't be your business, would it ?

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Author: Helter Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1757 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 11:26 AM
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In defense of our friend here, who was 'judging'. I think its reasonable to hold up some bad examples as well. He probably has some sense of their financial situation, and they seem to be living large. In most parts of the country 250 to 300k is a pretty big price tag. Two hot cars as well, sorry on 100k/year they can't be saving much.

I wonder how they will be looking if something happens and they get cut down to 60k/year.

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Author: 2gifts Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1758 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 11:29 AM
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I'm not sure this will be a popular opinion, but I generally disagree with your statements:

<They live in an expensive house (250K to 300K) in an exclusive suburb.>
They make a good enough pay to be able to afford this. Assuming they put down only 5%, they're still only around the 28% debt ratio that the bank uses, and I'd guess much lower. Heck, in my town, that amount buys you a pretty standard house.

<They have a 25k car and just bought a 40k Sport Utility Vehicle with leather interior and a TV and VCR.>
You're assuming again here that they can't afford this or that they have huge car payments. Maybe they paid cash. I always pay cash for my vehicles, and I'm driving a 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan. Hubby has a 94 Accord EX that we bought new and also paid cash. And he's got a 1981 Jeep pick-up that he bought just as a toy to work on, do some plowing, haul stuff, etc. If you plan properly, it is possible to do this, and with their income, it is easily doable.

<They pay someone to clean thier house and water their house plants.>
They make over $100k a year. Perhaps in their priorities, they would rather spend time with each other or doing charity work or some hobby or whatever more than they want to spend time cleaning the house. I say again, if they are not in debt [which you don't say that you know they are] and are funding for things like their retirement [which they could easily be doing on that salary], then they can actually afford all these things. I think the key to LBYM or even within your means is knowing what you can afford and how not to overstep your limits. I never worry about what people think about my spending habits, and I almost sound like these folks except I don't have a cleaning person - yet. We're buillding a 4400 sq. ft. house, and my husband definitely wants to have a cleaning service. Since we are more than adequately funded for retirement, I will have enough saved by the time the kids go to college to be able to pay for the whole thing, and the only debt we have is the mortgage, I think having a few luxuries are well-deserved. Perhaps these folks think the same.

I don't think you have to give up everything and live a completely austere existence to be LBYM. I do think that you need to understand what's important to you and how you want to spend your money and figure a way to do that without going into debt.



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Author: RecoveringFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1759 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 11:32 AM
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<<I wonder how they will be looking if something happens and they get cut down to 60k/year. >>

Maybe good, maybe bad. Some sense of another's financial situation means very little. I know people in our old neighborhood thought we had very little until we moved.

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Author: RecoveringFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1760 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 11:36 AM
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<< We're buillding a 4400 sq. ft. house, and my husband definitely wants to have a cleaning service. >>

I can afford to have my house cleaned but until I get the clutter under control, it won't happen. My goal is by the first of the year - we'll see. I have to say that 100k without kids seems like a fortune but we felt like we had a fortune when we bought our first car with cash(because we chose to live in a small apartment.)

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1766 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 12:20 PM
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Well, what if they have $500k equity in their rental units ?

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Author: DBelcher Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1767 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 12:26 PM
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I feel I need to add some other information to the original post I made. The couple I mentioned have two children so they are paying in excess of $5,000 in daycare expenses. The area we live in, western NY, has anaverage house price in the neighborhood of 150k so their house is close to double this. As far as my judgement as to their situation this comes from the fact that they often complain about having a hard time making ends meet and from the fact that they let so much money roll over to their line of credit. In response to the comment that they have their house cleaned to have more time on their hands this is not the case. The wife is always complaining that she doesn't have enough time to spend with her kids and wants to work part time in order to do so.

This post wasn't intended to be a judgement of their lifestyle or the choices thay make. It was intended to give examples of some of the excesses that people will go to in order to try to obtain "happiness".

Let me tell you about my situation. I am married with two children and make 45k per year. My wife does not work because we prefer to have her stay home with our children instead of letting them rot in a daycare center somewhere. We have a modest $67,000 home with two small cars that are both paid off and no debt besides our mortgage. We currently contribute about 3-4% of our gross income to charities each year. I also invest $200 each month in several DRiP's as well as 6% of my income into my 401k and also have $100 deducted from my paycheck each month to buy each of my sons a $100 savings bond for their college education. We also take a two week vacation each year costing about $1,000 which we have saved throughout the year in our vacation club account. We also save $1,000 each year in a Christmas Club acount which takes care of all our gift buying in addition to buying gifts for underprivelaged children.

I feel that I am happier with my situation than many of the wealthier people that I work with mainly because I do not feel it necessary ot keep up with the Jones's. Many of the people I work with including the couple I mentioned in my first post live in excess of what they are capable of.

I am sorry if I seem defensive in this e-mail but I feel that I need to respond to some of the critisism I received in some of the responses to my original e-mail.

Dave.

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Author: Helter Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1768 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 12:30 PM
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<<Well, what if they have $500k equity in their rental units ? >>

Excellent point there, and you really got me thinking again. I think that we certainly don't have enough information about this couple and their net worth to evaluate their spending. I guess we could all agree, they aren't scraping to save, but perhaps they don't need to scrape - maybe they are in surplus territory.

Income from the rentals does imply that the rentals are at least paying their own expenses, so they are building equity there, which is 'savings'.

Also, upon rereading, I note: Income well above 100k, which makes me think twice about that housing expense, it may well be quite reasonable.

Who knows? maybe they've got the means for this. Also, maybe they enjoy work and are not setting out to achieve an early retirement?

That's my goal, and I projected it on them. If I apply my tastes and goals to their spending, they look extravagant - but that's MY tastes and MY goals.



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Author: Helter Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1771 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 12:40 PM
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<<As far as my judgement as to their situation this comes from the fact that they often complain about having a hard time making ends meet>>

This may be a ploy - I think everyone should occasionally complain, otherwise people will think you are rich and ask why you don't have a fancy car.

<<and from the fact that they let so much money roll over to their line of credit.>>

This could be just poor cash management skills. Maybe they send too much money to their broker each month, leaving them cash strapped? Like TMND says 'create an artificial sense of scarcity' or something like that.

<<In response to the comment that they have their house cleaned to have more time on their hands this is not the case. The wife is always complaining that she doesn't have enough time to spend with her kids and wants to work part time in order to do so.>>

This supports the 'wanting time' theory. Apparently paying for cleaning still fails to free up enough time.

<<I feel that I am happier with my situation than many of the wealthier people that I work with mainly because I do not feel it necessary ot keep up with the Jones's.>>
This is most likely true, and I think your lifestyle makes a lot of sense. That's how many fools choose to behave. Other fools(thanks to being fools for so long) can afford some excesses and don't want to be thought of as bad people for indulging. I'm not one of them yet.

<<I am sorry if I seem defensive in this e-mail but I feel that I need to respond to some of the critisism I received in some of the responses to my original e-mail.>>

You do seem defensive, and given the responses you received, I would have been defensive as well. Its a careful balancing act, responding to messages, especially when you are passionate about something. The folks here are a great group of folks, if they sounded harsh, it was probably not meant that way. Confident language in email often comes across as confrontational when it wasn't intended that way.

Just my thoughts on the entire subject...

Helter Skelter






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Author: fbeck One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1772 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 12:42 PM
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"...and also have $100 deducted from my paycheck each month to buy each of my sons a $100 savings bond for their college education."

A savings bond??? Surely you can get better return than that, can't you? I've never owned a savings bond, and therefore am not exactly sure what they pay. I realize this is kinda off topic for this board (but not this site), but why are you choosing savings bonds as a long-term investment (presuming your kids aren't starting college tommorrow)?

I'm particularly wondering because I sent some cash to a friend when her baby was born, and she wrote back saying she bought a savings bond with it. I was taken aback to say the least, but maybe they have advantages as an investment instrument that I am unaware of.



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Author: Helter Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1774 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 12:45 PM
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<<...she bought a savings bond with it. I was taken aback to say the least, but maybe they have advantages as an investment instrument that I am unaware of.>>

Guaranteed by the US Govt.
No taxes on interest until its cashed in.
No tax paperwork until its cashed in.

That said, I agree, there are still much better investments, perhaps he plans to cash them in at some point and toss them in an index fund? Are the bonds just a staging area?

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Author: RecoveringFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1776 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 1:09 PM
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<<A savings bond??? Surely you can get better return than that, can't you? >>

A couple of thoughts. We have savings bonds because we have to buy them - you work in certain industries, there's lots of pressure. Not much of our assets and I turn them into other things occasionally. There is an educational benefit. Under a certain income level, if you use them for educational expenses, you don't pay tax on the interest BUT they have to be in the parent's name, not the child's. If you have $25 to invest and that's it, you can give the gift of a $50 bond, with no charge for the investment. At that level, it's probably not a bad deal. Also, a parent can cash in a savings bond and put the money elsewhere for the child(probably a little known fact(I know my mother doesn't know this and my kids money does get moved from the bonds at various times)

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Author: DBelcher Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1780 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 1:33 PM
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I am speaking from the point of view of the majority of the households in the US. I recently read that 40% of the housholds in the US have households incomes of $25,000 or less and I would guess that households with incomes in the six figure range are a very small percentage. So I would guess that those of you who responded with critism to my original post are in or close to the six figure income bracket. Remember that the Tightwad Gazette author, Amy, and here family had a household income of only $34,000 when they started their frugal life style.

Let me ask those of you who disagree with my opinions:

Could you live on a household income of $45,000 and if so would you be happy? If the answer to these questions is no then in my opinion your happiness is dependent on the material things that you find it necessary to have.

Let me give you an example. When my wife quit work to stay home with our children many of my female co-workers expressed that they wished thay could do the same. I responded that they could, to which they disagreed because it wouldn't be financially possible. I countered that it could be done if some financial sacrifices were made, but they only scoffed at this suggestion. In their cases it is quite clear that they value their possessions more than their relationships with their children. Otherwise it they truly wanted to stay home with their children thay would make the necessary sacrifices.

I am glad I started this dialogue because I always love a good debate.

Before you respond with any more critism to my posts take a moment to answer the question I posed earlier in this message.

Dave.



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Author: DBelcher Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1781 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 1:37 PM
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As far as my decision to invest in savings bonds, this is because of many of the reason mentioned in earlier posts.

Deducted directly from my paycheck.

Guaranteed by the federal gov't.

Interest is not taxed if used for education costs.

While this may not make sense to some of you as an investment this is only a small part of my overall investment protfolio. As i said before I invest in my 401k (index fund) as well as in several DRiP's.

Dave.

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Author: Rogue31 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1783 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 1:38 PM
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<<We have savings bonds because we have to buy them - you work in certain industries, there's lots of pressure.>>

How can somebody "pressure" you into an investment? I don't understand. I've done a fair amount of industry hopping (grocery clerk, mutual fund sales, systems analyst, hospital housekeeper, and several others) and never had anyone try to pressure me into a certain type of investment (even when I was selling mutual funds). Could you please explain what you mean? Thanks.

Rogue31

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Author: PSUEngineerFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1786 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 1:57 PM
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Let me tell you about my situation. I am married with two children and make 45k per year. My wife does not work because we prefer to have her stay home with our children instead of letting them rot in a daycare center somewhere. We have a modest $67,000 home with two small cars that are both paid off and no debt besides our mortgage. We currently contribute about 3-4% of our gross income to charities each year. I also invest $200 each month in several DRiP's as well as 6% of my income into my 401k and also have $100 deducted from my paycheck each month to buy each of my sons a $100 savings bond for their college education. We also take a two week vacation each year costing about $1,000 which we have saved throughout the year in our vacation club account. We also save $1,000 each year in a Christmas Club acount which takes care of all our gift buying in addition to buying gifts for underprivelaged children.

I am sorry if I seem defensive in this e-mail but I feel that I need to respond to some of the critisism I received in some of the responses to my original e-mail.


I guess it's my turn to be defensive. I take exception to your comment about children rotting in daycares. My 2 daughters are in daycare and quite happy and well-adjusted.

Ideally, yes, a child is better at home with their mother. But because they are in daycare does not mean they cannot bond with the family or will end up as juvenile delinquets.

Most stay-at-home (s-a-h) mothers do a wonderful job. But not all mothers make good s-a-h moms. Some s-a-h moms use TV as a babysitter instead of interacting with kids. In a daycare, there is social interaction with other kids, arts and crafts, and outside play time.

It would be nice for my kids to be at home but everyone has to make choices for themselves. We chose daycare because on one salary (less than yours), housing costs would place us in an unsafe part of town, medical insurance would consume a large percentage of income, would have to sacrifice life and disability insurance, and would have to delay retirement savings.

Also, my wife (she agrees) may only make a so-so s-a-h mom. She can sometimes have trouble playing with the kids. (I am much better at this. She always says she has 3 kids, 1 big and 2 little.) She also requires adult interaction and workplace challenges.

Did we make the right choice? Would my wife have made a good s-a-h mom? Could we have made it financially? I don't know. Time will tell if we made a good choice. We will never know if we the best choice.

-PSU

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Author: Rogue31 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1787 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 1:59 PM
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Dave,

I'm in a similar position as you. I work fulltime and my wife is a part-time real estate agent. I'm the primary bread-winner. I told my wife when we were dating that when we got married, I did not want her to HAVE to work. What she WANTED to do was for her to decide. If she wanted to work, fine. If not, fine.

My colleagues seem amazed when I don't drive the latest and greatest, or bring my lunch, or any of a hundred other ways I save money. They think that because I make a pretty penny, I should spend it as well.

But, I would not be happy on $45K at this point in my life. If I had no bills and no mortgage, yes, I would be happy. But my desire is to be completely debt-free (including owning my home and having my childrens education already financed) in ten years. I'm on the way, by which time I'll be more than happy. In the interim, I'll enjoy making more and more money and investing it in my family's happiness. There's no better investment.

Rogue31

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Author: MomAtHome Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1789 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 2:08 PM
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Dave writes:

My wife does not work because we prefer to have her stay home with our children instead of letting them rot in a daycare center somewhere.

Dave, I know you're already feeling picked on, and I honestly, honestly don't mean this as a personal attack, but this comment just made me cringe. I know it's not exactly on topic, but I do think it's worthy of a response.

I am a stay-at-home mom, so we have made the same choice you have. However, something you may or may not realize is that there is a very insidious, devisive war out there between SAH moms and WOH (work outside the home) moms. We are set up by societal pressures to think that those who choose to WOH are selfish and neglectful of their children. The WOH moms are then naturally defensive about their choice and believe that those of us who stay at home are lazy, unintellectual and couldn't make it in the work force anyway. It is truly a vicious situation, and I have personally experienced its nastiness.

Comments like "rot in daycare centers" really don't help the matter (although it is typical of the viciousness that gets tossed back and forth.) I'm sure that you didn't really mean it to be so harsh. I'm sure you realize that most parents spend a lot of time and effort searching out quality daycare, and that the good centers are actually pleasant places.

In any case, I would implore all of you to support the women in your life in this most difficult choice. Most of the SAH moms I know are vital, smart women who who agonized over the decision to make financial and personal sacrifices to be with their children. Most of the WOH moms I know are smart, vital women who agonized over the decision to work - and although their lives are different than mine, they do seem to be happy with their choice. As is said so often, no one answer is right for everybody. But it helps no one to fan the flames of an already difficult situation with careless comments.

Laura

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Author: RecoveringFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1793 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 2:20 PM
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<<Could you live on a household income of $45,000 and if so would you be happy? If the answer to these questions is no then in my opinion your happiness is dependent on the material things that you find it necessary to have. >>

You're welcome to your opinion and your choices. I'd prefer that you don't judge mine.

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Author: RecoveringFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1795 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 2:24 PM
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If you work in aerospace/defense, it's a good idea to buy bonds. No one will say you HAVE to but it's a good idea(at least at 2 of the companies).

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Author: JABoa Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1796 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 2:24 PM
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DBelcher,
I guess it depends on where you live. In Erie County, NY, home to my favorite vacation spot, the median house price is $83,000 if I recall correctly. I think that house could be carried for $600 a month, which is also the rent on a large 2 bedroom apartment or a large 1 bedroom in downtown Buffalo. Associate Professors at the State University get $45,000 and live quite comfortably.

The imponderable is how much you are going to spend on your children's education. I claim (and I admit I am biased, but I have direct experience on the teaching end) that your child can get an excellent undergraduate education at your state's State U. at probably half the cost of a private school.

Maybe we should ask DBelcher's question again with $45,000 replaced by $36,500, which is what I extrapolate as the median family income based on the 1989 Statistical Abstract of the U.S. (all I have in front of me just this minute). I bet in Silicon Valley both figures would represent a pretty bleak existence.

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Author: Meowiz Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1801 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 2:48 PM
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Dave, just to add my $.02 here...of course you knew you'd get a total of more than $.02 with your message, right? If you wonder whether I could live on $45,000., I retrieved 2 bad peaches from the trash last night that my husband tossed after one bite, because they were lousy, to return to the grocery store, & I was thrilled I invented a new use for tiny soap chips last night. We make more than $45,000, but I've lived on less many times.

If I had children, I would want to stay home with them in the early years, because I would enjoy it, & I also have other interests & work I am able to do from home. I am also 42 & don't have the energy to work outside fulltime & have another full-time job at night! I also have close friends who are working moms & have very healthy family relationships & healthy children. I have been a teacher & counselor working with children & families for 20 years, & just my experience, but I don't see a strict correlation between stay-at-home moms & healthy children & family relationships. More important factors seem to be emotional health of parents, parents' own issues being resolved, & adult needs being met with other adults, so they can be giving to their children & yet not intrude on their boundaries...emotional, social, & physical,...parents' involvement in children's activities & friends, parents having self-esteem based on something other than just their children, like inner spiritual life, their own interests...i.e...having a life.....boundary setting, disciplinary & communication skills. Children's basic personalities are said to be formed in the very early years...who they are with IS important...but I know many emotionally & academically successful children who were in good daycare situations, and some disturbed children who stayed at home with parents with unresolved problems. Nothing is cut and dried. Many good fathers would not want to stay home all day with their children...some good mothers feel mentally healthier working, too. I just wanted to say it's not a one way or the other deal. Many single parents have no choice but daycare. I'm sure many of them feel their children are thriving. meowiz

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Author: PSUEngineerFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1802 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 2:55 PM
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In any case, I would implore all of you to support the women in your life in this most difficult choice. Most of the SAH moms I know are vital, smart women who who agonized over the decision to make financial and personal sacrifices to be with their children. Most of the WOH moms I know are smart, vital women who agonized over the decision to work - and although their lives are different than mine, they do seem to be happy with their choice. As is said so often, no one answer is right for everybody. But it helps no one to fan the flames of an already difficult situation with careless comments.

Laura (MomAtHome),

Thank you for making such an eloquent response. It is a difficult decision each family with children have had to make. Not only do we agonize over the initial decision, but many of us continually second guess ourselves to if it was the right decision.

Your writing shows that you are a small, vital women who made the best decision for your family. Your family is truly blessed.

-PSU







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Author: broomstick One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1803 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 3:03 PM
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Stan wrote:

Why are people in cities and warm climates buying these gas guzzeling, insurance
intensive, bone jarring crates?

Well, some of us can see a use for 4wd.

We just bought a used Explorer. We decided on a SUV because my husband, the sailplane pilot, wants to do some cross-country soaring. One of the risks of that is landing out the plane in a rural field somewhere. That means the ground crew (me) gets to drive the plane's trailer out to wherever he's at, help put the plane in the trailer (the wings come off) and pull the whole shebang out of the field.

For those of you who are wondering, a sailplane is a glider-- all long wings and no engine.

Regards

Cheryl

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Author: fbeck One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1807 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 3:25 PM
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"As far as my decision to invest in savings bonds, this is because of many of the reason mentioned in earlier posts.

Deducted directly from my paycheck.

Guaranteed by the federal gov't.

Interest is not taxed if used for education costs.

While this may not make sense to some of you as an investment this is only a small part of my overall investment protfolio. As i said before I invest in my 401k (index fund) as well as in several DRiP's."

Dave,
I realize you have other investments. The reason the savings bond thing caught my eye is that you specifically said it was for your sons' educations. I'm presuming this is many years in the future, though it may well not be.
I had to go check at the US gov't web page since no one gave me the rate, but savings bonds currently pay 5.06%, not much better than money market rates. Knowing your financial status is, I'm not sure why the tax savings is a benefit. You shouldn't have much of a tax burden with 4 deductions at 45K income. Besides an education IRA (though limited to $500/child/year) will give you more tax benefits with greater likelihood for capital appreciation.

Obviously, your investment decisions are up to you, and if this is the kind of investment that makes you happy and allows you to sleep soundly at night, by all means go for it. I would just recommend that you look more closely at your reasons and your goals for this money, and check out other options- there are plenty out there.

P.S. - I live a joyful and carefree life on 30K/year - and I invest 50% of my post-tax income. But, no, I don't have a late-model SUV, and I must admit, my home could use a maid :-).

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Author: PSUEngineerFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1808 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 3:42 PM
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Laura,

I meant to say smart. So sorry. I should really proofread well before I post.

-PSU

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Author: Bobox31 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1813 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 4:49 PM
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A savings bond??? Surely you can get better return than that, can't you?>>>>>

Don't criticize for using savings bonds. It is savings. Plus, a little known benefit of savings bonds. If you don't list these on financial aid applications, they won't be found and can make a person's assets look smaller than they really are. This can improve one's chances of getting aid where if the bonds are added to the equation, a person may not get help.

And EE bonds currently earn 85% of a T-Bill 5 year rate. That's not bad considering the low risk and it is near the rate in some money markets.

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Author: DBelcher Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1815 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 5:26 PM
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One last word on this subject, then I'm done.

I find it hard to sympathize with any of you out there with 6 figure incomes or any amount significantly more than our 45k income.

When I started reading this board, I would have guessed that the other posters were like my self in terms of income range. I find it difficult to fathom that anyone with a 6 figure income would have difficulty living below their means.

Again, take my financial situation. With a house worth $67,000 it really isn't possible to buy down to anything significantly less expensive. This would not be the case with a house in excess of $200,000. It would be very easy to buy a house at $150,000 and be able to save 25% in housing expenses. In my case there are not a lot of 50,000 houses available in order for me to cut my housing costs by 25%.

As for cars, I drive a Chevy Cavalier and my wife drives a Chevy Corsica. You can't buy cars much cheaper than these. We don't have an SUV or big luxury car that we can trade in on a cheaper car.

As for my self and, I would guess, others in my income range our family budget consists mainly of the necessities: mortgage, utilities, clothes, food, phone, insurance, auto expenses, and savings. Our only "luxury" items are cable TV and my internet connection. I have cut expenses every way I can think of. The only other place where I could reduce is my charitable contributions. The small amount we have left over each month is set aside in savings until the next car or home repair is needed or other unexpected costs arise.

Don't misinterpret this as complaining about my financial situation because we are very happy living this life style. We are in no means deprived of joy and happiness in our life. We do many social activities as a family, but we do so on the cheap or for free. For example there are several free admission nights for our local minor league baseball team that we attend. There are also many free music and entertainment programs that our family attends at our local library. We also spend many a night together as a family with the TV turned off playing games, going for walks or bike rides, or reading together. We have a very simple lifestyle and enjoy it very much.

What frustrates me most about many of the people I work with who make significantly more than our family is listening to them brag about all their possesions one day and then listening to them complain about how tough it is to make ends meet the next day.

So for those of you that fall into the previous category start big by moving to a less expensive house and buy less expensive cars and you will see how easy it will be for you to LBYM.

For those of you in similar circumstances to our family keep posting the great money savings ideas that can really help us.

Dave.

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Author: DBelcher Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1816 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 5:26 PM
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One last word on this subject, then I'm done.

I find it hard to sympathize with any of you out there with 6 figure incomes or any amount significantly more than our 45k income.

When I started reading this board, I would have guessed that the other posters were like my self in terms of income range. I find it difficult to fathom that anyone with a 6 figure income would have difficulty living below their means.

Again, take my financial situation. With a house worth $67,000 it really isn't possible to buy down to anything significantly less expensive. This would not be the case with a house in excess of $200,000. It would be very easy to buy a house at $150,000 and be able to save 25% in housing expenses. In my case there are not a lot of 50,000 houses available in order for me to cut my housing costs by 25%.

As for cars, I drive a Chevy Cavalier and my wife drives a Chevy Corsica. You can't buy cars much cheaper than these. We don't have an SUV or big luxury car that we can trade in on a cheaper car.

As for my self and, I would guess, others in my income range our family budget consists mainly of the necessities: mortgage, utilities, clothes, food, phone, insurance, auto expenses, and savings. Our only "luxury" items are cable TV and my internet connection. I have cut expenses every way I can think of. The only other place where I could reduce is my charitable contributions. The small amount we have left over each month is set aside in savings until the next car or home repair is needed or other unexpected costs arise.

Don't misinterpret this as complaining about my financial situation because we are very happy living this life style. We are in no means deprived of joy and happiness in our life. We do many social activities as a family, but we do so on the cheap or for free. For example there are several free admission nights for our local minor league baseball team that we attend. There are also many free music and entertainment programs that our family attends at our local library. We also spend many a night together as a family with the TV turned off playing games, going for walks or bike rides, or reading together. We have a very simple lifestyle and enjoy it very much.

What frustrates me most about many of the people I work with who make significantly more than our family is listening to them brag about all their possesions one day and then listening to them complain about how tough it is to make ends meet the next day.

So for those of you that fall into the previous category start big by moving to a less expensive house and buy less expensive cars and you will see how easy it will be for you to LBYM. I don't harbor any ill will against you, just don't complain to me about how tough you have it.

For those of you in similar circumstances to our family keep posting the great money savings ideas that can really help us.

Dave.

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Author: RecoveringFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1817 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 5:47 PM
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<<For those of you in similar circumstances to our family keep posting the great money savings ideas that can really help us.>>

I'll keep posting anyway even though your means aren't my means.


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Author: sam4d Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1825 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 9:54 PM
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JABoa
You have touched on a couple of very good points. It is just as important WHERE you are earning your money as how much you are earning.
The old saying 'people spend just a little more than they earn' is sadly true but shows another point. Our choices are made at least in part by the financial pressures on us.
There is no doubt in my mind that I am in the lower percentage of income for this board yet we have raised 5 children and manage to be quite happy most of the time. Of course, there are things that I would like to be able to get for my family members or myself but they can wait. There was a time when we were in really desperate straits and my oldest needed shoes to wrestle in. I did not have the money for even a cheap pair of sneakers and told him to shovel snow in the neighborhood for the money. Working for the money was a good thing but it was painful that I had to tell him that rather than chose to go that route.
If you look for fulfillment and justification in the eyes of others, no amount of money will give you happiness, but, if you are true to yourself, once the basics can be met, any income will provide the opportunity for happiness.
Stan
Pardon the long post please.


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Author: sam4d Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1826 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 10:03 PM
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Cheryl
We just bought a used Explorer. We decided on a SUV because my husband, the sailplane pilot,
wants to do some cross-country soaring. One of the risks of that is landing out the plane in a rural
field somewhere. That means the ground crew (me) gets to drive the plane's trailer out to wherever
he's at, help put the plane in the trailer (the wings come off) and pull the whole shebang out of the
field.

That makes sense to me. I may have wondered prematurely. Tell your hubby this true story. I had a dog that loved to hunt. He would break ice to retrieve a duck or goose but refused to get wet for a pheasant or quail, they were supposed to land on firm ground and if I did't do my job-he wasn't going to do his. Hubby should land in better places.LOL
Stan

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Author: Meowiz Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1827 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 10:10 PM
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<<If you look for fulfillment and justification in the eyes of others, no amount
of money will give you happiness, but, if you are true to yourself, once the
basics can be met, any income will provide the opportunity for happiness.Stan>>

Stan, thank you for this pearl. Your family is blessed to have you. We are, too! On our computer, my husband taped a quote ,"Until you make peace with who you are, you'll never be content with what you have."blessings to you, Greathearted Fool, meowiz

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Author: sam4d Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1829 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 10:30 PM
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Dave
I think that you have missed something here. Families with six figure incomes have money troubles too. They have high paying jobs,in part, because of the education that they have and some have 5 or 6 figure student loans to prove it. The high paying jobs are often in places like Silicon Valley where housing is so costly that it is mind boggleing to the uninitiated. High incomes also allow people to make more mistakes and get deeper into debt before trying to fix the problem.
There are people here that are frugal by nature and pull in high incomes. Should their good ideas be discounted because they have high paying jobs? I don't think so. Every suggestion here is not for every person, it is for you to decide.
We had a discussion of stay at home mom and working mom and decided, quite correctly, that if your choices are truly made to benefit the family any choice you make is a good one. If your wife choses to work and is loving and nurturing your kids will be fine as with any other combination of plans.
Please don't skoff at folks here that have made choices other than the ones you make. Their differences are what make them valuable as they can add perspectives others have not thought of.
Go to the beginning of this board and read all of the posts. Make a list and put down the sex, age, profession and income of each poster. Then compare that to the suggestions they made. You will find that it is the mind of the poster that counts, not the income.
You are going to have fun here we love bright people with opinions.
Stan

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Author: johndinca Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1834 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 11:10 PM
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Ditto... My wife and I work for the same company and together make over the 100k mark. We bring our lunches almost every day, drive to work together in our 91 Honda Civic or 92 pickup. We get many people who look at us cross eyed because we don't eat out and drive a Lexus!!! I hope one day the bottom falls out from under a couple of them just to set them straight. It's ok to live life large, but know where to draw the line and remember you may get tired of working some day.

New to LBYM.
JDinCA

By the way, our hood is in the $250K area also. Just the fact of life if you want safety and at least an attractive nice home here.

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Author: pita Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 11:25 PM
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DBelcher wrote:

<< I find it difficult to fathom that anyone with a 6 figure income would have difficulty living below their means. >>

Yes, Dave, I can see you might. But it's really easy. Just do like me: first, believe that you are smarter than everybody else (as I did); then, become as arrogant as you can be because of #1 (like me); then, sell yourself into $40K or $50K worth of credit-card debt (guess who?). Totally painless and even enjoyable. But then you will find that you have difficulty lbym.

Thank you so much for your post. I admire you and I'm struggling to recover (I like the name "recovering fool") from my past fiscal sins.

-- Pete

OBlbym (geezer [like me] division):

If you grok that your evening bowl of Raisin Bran will let you skip your next-morning RDA of Metamucil.

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Author: PSUEngineerFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1838 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/6/1998 11:59 PM
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What frustrates me most about many of the people I work with who make significantly more than our family is listening to them brag about all their possesions one day and then listening to them complain about how tough it is to make ends meet the next day.

Buy a good set of earplugs.

So for those of you that fall into the previous category start big by moving to a less expensive house and buy less expensive cars and you will see how easy it will be for you to LBYM. I don't harbor any ill will against you, just don't complain to me about how tough you have it.

Its apparent from the posts that your $67,000 house may be a $200,000 house if located somewhere else. Just like you can't find $50,000 homes, they can't find $150,000 homes. I suggest you travel to other places before you judge others.

For those of you in similar circumstances to our family keep posting the great money savings ideas that can really help us.

Does this mean people with 6 figure incomes can't post? It doesn't sound like you need any help with money saving ideas. But maybe others on this board do.

I suggest you read the credit card board where the idea for this board came. You will find people that are struggling to get out of debt or celebrating the freedom of being debt free. Some have 6 figure incomes. Many got in debt due to medical expenses, car accidents, divorces, or less responsible spouses. We offer a big WOO HOO for each success they have and encouragement when unexpected downturns happen.

So here is a WOO HOO for you for living below your means. So please offer help and support to others on these boards.

-PSU

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Author: shouldhave Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1840 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/7/1998 7:34 AM
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Wow! I read the list of How not to LBYM messages.
Quite a diverse group of people and so many different opinions and income ranges. You know I never really thought about how much any of you made before, I just appreciated the ideas you all came up with. And... it really doesn't matter to me how much you make or how you choose to spend or invest your money , apparently whatever you are doing works fine for you. .

I think the key to LBYM is not to worry about what others do and what they think of how you spend and invest your money. Otherwise you will be constantly doing what you think others think you should do. Everyone finds his own way eventually. I've learned and continue to learn from my mistakes. Also, I am able to learn from others mistakes and experiences as well which saves me some heartaches and headaches as well.

I enjoy everybody's post. Keep on posting..

Chris

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Author: Agincourt Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/7/1998 10:14 AM
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>>>Sounds pretty darn reasonable to me, especially on $100K+ a year income. In my part of the state, "Starter" 2bd/1ba run down 50 year old tract homes start at $300K. If you want 3 bedrooms and 2 baths, start with at least $450K.<<<

So much of this is going to be about relative cost of living, of course. I'm a different demographic from all of the other readers I've seen so far - I'm 28, single never-married, no children, and have lived in or around Nashville TN my whole life. Right now, your typical 2BR/1BT starter costs $75k to $105k, location and access being the determining factor. Food's cheap, gas is cheap, and the neighbors are friendly.

I live in a 1BR ground-floor apartment just 10 minutes from my work, and I don't have to leave secondary roads to get there. I'm a mechanical inspector and quality systems engineer for a company that makes industrial equipment, and I drive a '96 Jeep Cherokee (not the Grand Cherokee). It was my first 'new' car, and I bought it because I'd wanted one since before the SUV craze. I get about 21 mpg, and drive less than 70 miles a week on average.

I'm going to earn about $39k this year after taxes. (I don't know about you folk, but I don't count gross income as income - that $39k is what I get to put in the bank.) In my part of the country, that income makes me quite well-off for someone in my situation, and I can usually put $800-900 a month into stocks, money market, and mutual funds. My reason for LBYM is to be able to put as much of my excess income as possible into investments, so that I can get out and do what I really want to do earlier than my 70th birthday.

Again, it's all about COL; If I lived in an area that charged $250k for a vinyl-sided 2BR house, I'd take my education (BS Mech. Engr, state school, middle-class schoolteacher parents paid for in toto)and bloody well move somewhere more sensible. But that's just me. It's a quirk. Your mileage may vary.


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Author: TMFRunkle Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1936 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/9/1998 12:49 AM
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<<Could you live on a household income of $45,000 and if so would you be
happy? If the answer to these questions is no then in my opinion your
happiness is dependent on the material things that you find it necessary to
have.>>

Dave,
Funny you should ask. I checked about three ago how much money we could live on if absolutely necessary. I was going through one of those periods in my last job when my boss was threatening to fire me. Actually, the idiot couldn't, and he was forced into retirement, but that's a different story. Because of the large amount I was investing at the time, I actually could have gone down to 45,000 a year. It would be difficult, and I would have to quit investing.

Could I do it now? Well, I have two cars I'm paying for, so it might be very very hard. We would have to make some serious changes in lifestyle. What you are doing is amazing, to be able to live on that and set some aside.

One of the advantages on being able to live on less is not worrying about your job, since you don't have to worry about getting a new one that pays as much or more.

George

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Author: johndinca Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1937 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/9/1998 1:19 AM
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>>>Again, it's all about COL; If I lived in an area that charged $250k for a vinyl-sided 2BR house, I'd take my education (BS Mech. Engr, state school, middle-class schoolteacher parents paid for in toto)and bloody well move somewhere more sensible. But that's just me. It's a quirk. Your mileage may vary.<<<


I used to think the same about COL and LBYM. Then I moved to San Diego. Once you come to this place, it's real hard to think about living somewhere else. I've lived in 9 states and 3 countries in my 38 years and have never found a better place to land. Take this evening for instance. Back yard pool and evening breezes (no flies or bugs) about 78 degrees and a cheap bottle of wine. How can you beat that? You just get caught up in it and can't even think about living any place else. Of course then reality sets in when the mortgage bill comes. We have to be real careful about other spending even on a low 6 figure income, i.e. 91 Honda and 92 Dodge pickup. Gas is about as high as it gets and food is too. So...eating is overrated anyway.

The hard part is turning down job offers in other places that you know would allow you to net better savings.

By the way, have you ever been to San Diego?

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Author: StormFool Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1953 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/9/1998 2:21 PM
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<"A savings bond??? Surely you can get better return than that, can't you?>"

Hi fbeck,

Not everybody is as knowledgeable (sp?) about the different types of investment vehicles as most of the experienced investors on this board. (Until I read the Motley Fool books this past Spring, I also thought Savings Bonds were a great investment for my niece and nephew).. Many people here may be new to this web site, and this board, and may not realize there are better investment vehicles availabe. Your friend may be a 'fool' like I WAS, (well, I'm trying, honestly),and may have thought that this was the frugal thing to do, so your gift would be saved for something meaningful, and not spent frivolously. I commend her for trying to make a good decision.

Thanks.

Jennifer

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Author: pwyles Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2163 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/13/1998 2:05 AM
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Dave
You posed the question could I live on a household income of $45,000.
Yes, it would be a raise. Our household size is 2 adults and 3 kids.
You further asked would I be happy.
Again the answer is yes. We determined two years ago that the reason we were not happy is debt was eating more than we were. Since then we have incured no new debt, and are paying off past foolishness (small f). As the debts go down and the net worth continues to rise we keep geting happier.

Books that have helped, checked out from the library of course. "How to Get Out of Debt, Stay Out of Debt and Live Prosperously," "Your Money or Your Life," "The Richest Man In Babylon," and "The Millionaire Next Door," I haven't got to the "The Tightwad Gazzette" series yet. All of thesee books helped me by showing you can be happy no matter how small the compensation from work. A couple of these books also showed you could be unhappy no matter how large your income is also. This board and some of the books demonstrate that it is an individual thing as to what has high value.

If I persue a dream and buy a $200,000 40' Motorhome am I frugal or a spendthrift? The answer is it depends. If it sits in the driveway all but 1 week a year it might be conspicuous consumption. If I become a "snowbird" sell the house and live in the motorhome full time it is house with wheels. If I live in the RV and follow the craft show circuit selling my wares a convinceing case could be made that at least a portion is is a business expense.

My wife choosing to be a stay-at-home mom was partially a financial one. After considering the probable increasse in income, and the additional expenses as a result of her working outside the home we discovered the net income would decrease if she work outside the home. Go Figure!

~~paul

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Author: pwyles Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2164 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/13/1998 2:20 AM
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The reason I want an SUV is I need a people hauler that is capable of pulling a travel trailer (I don't want to always rough it).
Vehicles we are considering in the far future. Suburban it can haul 5+ people and has good towing capacity. Crew cab diesel pickup: can haul 5 people, a box for picking up large items, and it can pull a 5th wheel.
I haven't decided how value the 4wd is for getting around in Colorado snow.

~~paul

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Author: Hunzi Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2211 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/13/1998 5:59 PM
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<< You posed the question could I live on a household income of $45,000. Yes, it would be a raise. >>

About a 50% raise for us!

Always ;-)
Hunzi (and looking forward to not living on military pay anymore...)

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Author: sam4d Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2232 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/13/1998 9:32 PM
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Hunzi (and looking forward to not living on military pay anymore...)
Oh yes, fond memories of military pay $18.00 every two weeks minus the obligatory voluntary bonds of course which would have run it all the way up to $25 or $30.
Hazardous duty pay was $55 and it seemed like a fortune.
Stan

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Author: emtwo Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2261 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/14/1998 7:33 AM
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Hazardous duty pay was $55 and it seemed like a fortune.

$55.00? My last tour in the gulf in January, hazardous duty pay was $155.00 a month, plus the added benefit of all income being tax exempt, which basically put an added 500.00 in my pocket each month.

v/r

Michael




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Author: WadaPhooliam Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2263 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/14/1998 10:06 AM
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<<$55.00? My last tour in the gulf in January, hazardous duty pay was $155.00 a month, plus the
added benefit of all income being tax exempt, which basically put an added 500.00 in my pocket
each month.

v/r>>

Stan and I were in 'Nam in the late 60's. Been some inflation since then. Same rules applied about the income being exempt. When I was separated from the AF, I think my pay as an E4 was $278/month


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Author: sam4d Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2303 of 884326
Subject: Re: How not to LBYM Date: 8/14/1998 1:04 PM
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$55.00? My last tour in the gulf in January, hazardous duty pay was $155.00 a month, plus the
added benefit of all income being tax exempt, which basically put an added 500.00 in my pocket
each month.

I am happy to hear that. We didn't get the tax break, I don't think, but taxes were low because of low pay so I may have overlooked it.
It was strange to me that they paid the same for flight skins as for combat pay. Some of the flights were exciting but no one was shooting at us.
Stan

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