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Author: PK227 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 757464  
Subject: I am very angry Date: 2/13/2009 11:34 PM
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I knew this democratic sweet (I SO want to use another term) dream would pass. I knew that all the values that I have lived by (and have instilled in our daughter and had instilled in me by my parents) would be thrown in my face. I knew that our country would now, thanks to the election of Obama/Pelosi/Reid would celebrate the incompetent, penalize the cautious and prudent, reward the slackers, and repay their union leader/green/global warming supporters....but I really don't think that I truly accepted it until today. There is not one single thing I can do about it except to quietly attempt to protect myself and my family from these people and their new laws and welfare programs. Oh, and stop watching the news for the next 2 years.

Not sure how I'm going to do that since the market has wiped out about 1/3 of our net worth, but I am going to attempt to get our income from prudent investments down low enough to not attract any attention from these vipers.

I am somewhat distressed that I am getting even more daily solicitations from the right asking for money. What, are they nuts and who is paying for all that postage and paper? I was stupid enough to, finally, give money to McCain (whom I do/did not support) just in case it might make a difference. It didn't. Not wasting any more money on a group who had their opportunity to handle things properly and squandered it.

I worry for our country, my friends, companies, retirement funds, etc. I worry about our own future and that of our kids. I worry that the left may actually get their wish and wipe me out financially so I can get on line with everybody else and beg them for money and health care. Oops...make that accept handouts as my constitutional right to take money from other people. The whole thing sickens me ... so I'm going to....starting Monday..... Stop watching the news and reading the Wall Street Journal first thing in the morning. Does not start the day off well. Going to only check our stocks weekly and I'm going to stop being upset about it. There's no point in letting these people (who I did not vote for) endanger my health, life and humor......I will hope that they will be appropriately thrown out of office in 2 years. I will get involved in that effort.

I'm angry because we did everything right. We got good educations, worked hard, had good jobs, lived below our means, saved money for our retirement, never asked for anything from anybody and we're getting screwed. It's just wrong.....
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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444590 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 2:24 AM
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It helps a lot to not to watch TV news at all - I stopped several years ago. I've started editing how much news I consume and am a lot happier. I read the headlines once a day and The Economist and Sunday NYT, but that's it.

As for the decline - well, life isn't fair. I too did all the right things and am in the same boat as everyone else. I surely wish I had just paid off my house the past four years instead of putting all that money into stocks. But hey, live and learn.

And I have noticed that my happiness is all in my attitude. I can make myself miserable (as I was in DEC wigging out about everything), or I can look on the positives and be happy (as I do now). And there are a lot. At the end of the day, my health is much better than last year. My family is well, and we get along great. I enjoy simple pleasures. I am blessed in so many ways. To fret about it all and what might happen improves nothing and harms no one but myself.

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Author: jwiest Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444604 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 9:36 AM
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I knew that our country would now, thanks to the election of Obama/Pelosi/Reid would celebrate the incompetent, penalize the cautious and prudent, reward the slackers, and repay their union leader/green/global warming supporters....but I really don't think that I truly accepted it until today.

You guys are so full of it. You helped double the debt and complain when the party's over? What nerve.

I'm angry because we did everything right. We got good educations, worked hard, had good jobs, lived below our means, saved money for our retirement, never asked for anything from anybody and we're getting screwed. It's just wrong.....

Maybe in your personal life, but in your electorate life, all you did was help drive us into the ditch. You're complicit. So go on, have your little tantrums and blame the wrong people. Someday maybe you'll realize who actually suckered you. Meanwhile, stand back, the rest of us are getting busy with winches and tow cables.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444606 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 9:54 AM
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You guys are so full of it. You helped double the debt and complain when the party's over?
---------------------------------------------------------------
So you think spending even more money now is the answer? A trillion dollars on a pork filled package that no one has read? That's your answer to doubling the debt?
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Meanwhile, stand back, the rest of us are getting busy with winches and tow cables.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Getting ready to pull the vehicle further off the road. You'll see, i'm patient.

2828

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444607 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 10:03 AM
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I was angry for several years as I watched the Republicans make this mess but I got over it. I turned off the teevee and worked in the garden whenever the Republicans cut more taxes for billionaires, enacted policies that guaranteed that we would pay $1.5 billion per day for oil to sustain a ponzi scheme economy that was sure to crash, and so on.

And now you can be angry at us while we clean up the mess you made. I am more convinced than ever that in conservativeworld up reallly is down and down really is up.

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Author: zathrus1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444608 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 10:12 AM
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Ginko,

A lot of us are angry. And we have pretty good reason IMO.

The way we react to that anger is important though - in your post, you are saying that your answer is basically to unplug yourself from incoming information, and sit around stewing about what the Democrats are doing.

What good will that do?

First, as Julie has mentioned, the Republicans are not without blame. Unlike Julie, I don't see signs that Congress is likely to fix this mess. The trouble is that both the Reps and the Dems are so hopelessly corrupt and juvenile that they tend to focus on everything EXCEPT fixing the situation. The congressional leadership resembles a bunch of 12 year old kids sniping at each other. Idiots.

And what about us - the voters? We could have gotten more engaged in actual politics instead of sitting griping on a message board, but American Idol was on so we all sat home instead.

Things are really screwed up right now. Things are likely to get worse. Things COULD be fixed, but it's going to take work.

Sitting home b1tching about the other side is not going to fix it though.

Just food for thought.

Zath

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Author: zathrus1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444609 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 10:13 AM
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Sorry - meant to respond to the OP - missed it by one.


Zath

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444615 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 10:30 AM
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A lot of us are angry. And we have pretty good reason IMO.

The way we react to that anger is important though - in your post, you are saying that your answer is basically to unplug yourself from incoming information, and sit around stewing about what the Democrats are doing.

What good will that do? - Zathrus

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I don't know why anyone sits around worrying about stuff they have no control over?

"Try not to turn onto
Problems that upset you
Don't you know everything's all right yeah,
Everything's all right,
And we want you to sleep well tonight,
Close your eyes, close your eyes,
and forget all about it tonight."

Art

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444617 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 10:42 AM
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Sitting home b1tching about the other side is not going to fix it though.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Hilarious, you bitch for 8 years and then talk about bitching not fixing things as soon as your messiah is elected. He's a disaster.

2828

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444638 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 11:38 AM
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No, Zathrus - "be uniformed" is exactly NOT what I am saying.

I read the news and stay informed (note I said I read the news every day, AND The Economist, AND the New York Times). What I do NOT do, is deliberately expose myself to TV news - which I think is sensationalist stuff designed to hype people up - or political shows or blogs, or the like, or expose myself more than I need to, as it does nothing except to feed anxiety.

Your own attitude controls a lot. Being angry is useless. You can take action where you can - but sitting around and worrying and making yourself miserable with "what ifs," or making yourself angry at "those bums" (fill in the political party here to your taste) will not change anything. What it does is make you miserable.

I firmly believe in the power of meditation to calm the mind. And action where one can in one's life to help one feel less helpless. Beyond that life rolls on and you with it, and trying to make the larger world behave the way you wish it would is both fruitless and destructive.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444640 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 11:46 AM
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I firmly believe in the power of meditation to calm the mind. And action where one can in one's life to help one feel less helpless. Beyond that life rolls on and you with it, and trying to make the larger world behave the way you wish it would is both fruitless and destructive. - gingko


Yepper, that's what I'm talking about. You know what I like doing? Sitting on our front porch holding Hardy while I sit in one of our rocking patio chairs, scratching him behind his ears and daydreaming about winning the lottery or what Heaven is going to be like? I like just staring at the trees and the birds and squirrels and just sort of watching life go by.

I'm also prone to have thoughts about what I'm going to be eating next too.

Artie

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Author: jwiest Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444644 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 12:10 PM
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So you think spending even more money now is the answer?

Hey, it's not my favorite answer, but if the money gets people working, it'll help.

A trillion dollars on a pork filled package that no one has read?

If you were really a conservative, you would have left the Republican party long ago for this reason. They have ALWAYS messed up the balance sheet, while lying about their intentions.

Besides, amazingly (and hilariously) your guys only found 2% that THEY called pork. By Washington standards, it's practically pristine. So you're exaggerating considerably calling this pork.

That's your answer to doubling the debt?

My answer is, get people to work and restore confidence in the market. History shows that your economic philosophies don't work, whereas public works do.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444645 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 12:10 PM
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<<You guys are so full of it. You helped double the debt and complain when the party's over? What nerve.
>>



Looks like the party is just getting started to me. Spend! Spend! Spend!

Am I missing something? Obama is acting out Bush's 3rd term.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444647 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 12:14 PM
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I'm angry because we did everything right. We got good educations, worked hard, had good jobs, lived below our means, saved money for our retirement, never asked for anything from anybody and we're getting screwed. It's just wrong.....

PK227


The phone rang yesterday at dinner time. I checked the Caller ID and the caller was the CA GOP. Those losers have the nerve to ask for money (I assume so since I didn't answer the phone).

Actually per the ruling Dems, you did everything wrong. You tried to take care of yourself and Dems don't like that. They want us all living equally miserable lives and being dependent on them.

Mike

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Author: jwiest Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444649 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 12:17 PM
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Looks like the party is just getting started to me. Spend! Spend! Spend!

Am I missing something? Obama is acting out Bush's 3rd term.


Except at least some money will get to normal people, instead of Halliburton.

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444650 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 12:17 PM
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You guys are so full of it. You helped double the debt and complain when the party's over? What nerve.

I'm angry because we did everything right. We got good educations, worked hard, had good jobs, lived below our means, saved money for our retirement, never asked for anything from anybody and we're getting screwed. It's just wrong.....

Maybe in your personal life, but in your electorate life, all you did was help drive us into the ditch. You're complicit. So go on, have your little tantrums and blame the wrong people. Someday maybe you'll realize who actually suckered you. Meanwhile, stand back, the rest of us are getting busy with winches and tow cables.

jwiest


Dude,

Go get bent. You don't know the regular posters on this board. We all try to live belowo our means and are fiscally prudent. Voting for Dems would have gotten us into this mess even quicker and you know it.

Mike

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444652 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 12:26 PM
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And now you can be angry at us while we clean up the mess you made. I am more convinced than ever that in conservativeworld up reallly is down and down really is up.

jgc123


Joel,

First of all, we the regular posters on this board did not make the mess. He!! I'm paying a pile of taxes.

We conservatives think the same of liberals - that their minds are wired differently. If you honestly think that the current Democrats in congress are going to clean up our economic mess, then there is no use trying to convince you otherwise.

I think things like the housing crisis have their roots back with Clinton and the CRA. Not every American is cut out to be a home owner. Owning a house is a tremendous responsibility. In addition, Americans' greed with housing caused these problems. Housing is an expense to be minimized and not an investment IMHO. Falling housing prices is a good thing because it makes housing more affordable (median house price should be no more than 3X median income, housing values should increase no higher than the rate of inflation).

I feel that if any of the regular conservative posters on this board was running the government, we'd be having a lot fewer financial issues.

Mike

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444653 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 12:28 PM
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A trillion dollars on a pork filled package that no one has read?

If you were really a conservative, you would have left the Republican party long ago for this reason. They have ALWAYS messed up the balance sheet, while lying about their intentions.
------------------------------------------------------------------
You have two choices, and dems are worse. i'd be happy to vote for a blue dog democrat if they actually existed here in Illinois, i'm liberal on most social issues. I've been unhappy with alot of republican things, medicare part d for example, dems wanted to make it even more expensive, Hillary was angry that Teddy went along with it because she wanted to hold out for more. Ethanol, i ridiculed Grassley for it. Ted Stevens, i'm happy he's gone. The problem with you guys is you NEVER admit any wrongdoing in your ranks, it's a friggin goosestepping cult, i didn't hear a peep out of anyone when Barney Frank didn't want Fannie and Freddie reigned in, i thought you guys were for increased regulation <crickets>. All i hear about the housing crisis is how Bush wanted to increase home ownership, which i ridiculed him for also.
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Besides, amazingly (and hilariously) your guys only found 2% that THEY called pork. By Washington standards, it's practically pristine. So you're exaggerating considerably calling this pork.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Pristine, gimmee a break. A trillion dollars of pristine spending, wake up hayseed, and a trillion is just the beginning too, this is going to become baseline spending in the future, it's more like 4 trillion.
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My answer is, get people to work and restore confidence in the market. History shows that your economic philosophies don't work, whereas public works do.
---------------------------------------------------------------
The treasury man under FDR (Morganthau) said himself the spending on public works didn't work. You're insane. The depression was extended for 7-8 years because of it.

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Author: jwiest Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444655 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 12:38 PM
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Go get bent. You don't know the regular posters on this board. We all try to live belowo our means and are fiscally prudent.

You might be, but you don't vote that way. You just fall for sound bites and end up confused why you're hosed.

Voting for Dems would have gotten us into this mess even quicker and you know it.

History doesn't bear you out, and you know it.

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444657 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 12:50 PM
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"We conservatives think the same of liberals - that their minds are wired differently. If you honestly think that the current Democrats in congress are going to clean up our economic mess, then there is no use trying to convince you otherwise"

I am not the least bit confident that the Democrats can really clean up this mess, but at least some of them are looking at facts and not letting ideology trump facts at every turn.

Economists predicted the Reagan deficits fairly accurately, after which Republicans reinvented history to blame the Democratic Congress which even though the Democratic Congress passed almost exactly the budgets Reagan asked for and even though Reagan hailed his budgets as a trimph for the American people when they were. The Reagan deficits were primarily a result of false revenue assumptions, but the pattern was set - pass a budget that is doomed to failure and then reinvent history when if fails.

It's not just liberals who watch us do this over and over again, it's most of the rest of the world.

At the most fundamental level, Reagan, Clinton and both Bushes have put us on an unsustainable path of massive consumption waste and deficits. None of them had the courage to tell us straight out that we could not send $1.5 billion per day overseas for oil forever and that we had no choice but to invest in a more sustainable economy based on our own sustainable energy.

We had to have our drunken orgy. But the irony of conservatives complaiing about Obama's plan after insisting on an economy based upon unsustainable levels of consumption is not lost on most of the rest of the world.

Obama is faced with a budding depression AND massive and growing deficits. Almost every real economist on earth is telling him that austerity measures at this stage in our history will choke the economhy further and send us into an honest to god depression.

So he has to take the unpalatable option, based on the advise of most of the experts, of pursuing a stimulus plan that will exacerbate already awful deficits because deficit cutting measures are likely to be even worse.

I don't know if he can clean up this mess because the combination of deficits and deflationary pressures may surpass the mess we made in 1929 and most of us just don't understand that yet. But at least he will listen to actual economists while the Republicans oppose everything he does and ask for more of the tax cuts that made this mess solely because they have polled their base and want to get re-elected.

Republicans will continue to fight for measures that worsen the economy because you, their base, want them to.

I agree that we are wired differently. Democrats can pursue things like tax cuts or not depending on the facts, and Republicans will pursue things like tax cuts no matter what because of their ideology.

That is the underlying difference between liberals and conservatives. We can change our minds when the facts warrant, and conservatives generally decide issues in advance based on ideology, after which they dismiss contrary evidence.

That is how Bush got us into this mess, and that is why Republicans are determined to make it worse.

And that is why we were angry and frustrated for eight years. We saw it coming and could not stop it.

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Author: MurrayS Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444658 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 12:52 PM
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Join the club. I was not angry in November 2000. "How bad could it be?" I told a friend.

I was not angry when the tax cuts were enacted. "It just might help the budget" I thought.

I was not angry when the statue of Sadam was toppled. "This is going better than I expected" I posted here.

I was not angry when my savings were cut by a third. "We have time to make it up" I told my wife.

What DOES make me angry is those who hope our President fails because if this President fails, we all will fail. This isn't some sort of ideological game of "your guy must lose", this is our country's future, my daughter's future, at stake here.

It's fine to disagree, I know I've disagreed plenty in the last eight years, but those who try to incite anger and resentment on either side do no good whatsoever.

Blame and anger won't fix the situation we're in, but open, honest discussion just might. I'm pretty certain the guy in charge is as open to discussion as any President in my lifetime.

-murray

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444661 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 12:55 PM
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What DOES make me angry is those who hope our President fails because if this President fails, we all will fail. This isn't some sort of ideological game of "your guy must lose", this is our country's future, my daughter's future, at stake here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I don't want him to fail, i have skin in this game, i know he's going to fail, because his policies are stupid. You'll see.

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444662 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 12:56 PM
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"The treasury man under FDR (Morganthau) said himself the spending on public works didn't work. You're insane. The depression was extended for 7-8 years because of it."

That kind of statement boggles my mind.

Almost every objective measure demonstrates that the New Deal helped pull us out of the depression. When Ruppert Murdoch, Fox, Cato and Heritage started reinventing history to claim otherwise, I watched them do it, and I watched their sock puppets eat it up and make it into reality just like they did with global warming, the Reagan deficits, the Bush deficits and every other topic in which Murdoch, Cato and Heritage reinvented history and fed it to their sock puppets.

It is one thing to buy into these insane claims. It is quite another to watch you declare that the entire rest of the world, and most of the scientific community worldwide, are insane because they do not share your insanity.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444665 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 1:04 PM
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<<Obama is faced with a budding depression AND massive and growing deficits. Almost every real economist on earth is telling him that austerity measures at this stage in our history will choke the economhy further and send us into an honest to god depression.

So he has to take the unpalatable option, based on the advise of most of the experts, of pursuing a stimulus plan that will exacerbate already awful deficits because deficit cutting measures are likely to be even worse.

I don't know if he can clean up this mess because the combination of deficits and deflationary pressures may surpass the mess we made in 1929 and most of us just don't understand that yet. But at least he will listen to actual economists while the Republicans oppose everything he does and ask for more of the tax cuts that made this mess solely because they have polled their base and want to get re-elected.
>>


Fiscally, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that Obama is serving out Bush's third term. The federal government has been goosing spending for decades with both parties participating whole heartedly. The only real exception was Clinton and the Republican Congress after the 1994 election, where both co-operated to bring a measure of fiscal discipline.

The only likely end point is when the dollar is no longer accepted as a reserve currency and we can't sell debt anyplace. Another irony is that in recent years, it wasn't really government spending that was out of control, it was spending and borrowing by individuals. Now we have the Federal Government going on a truly awsome spending binge, with no end in sight.

If we get to the point where business, individuals and government are all tapped out by excessive borrowing, that might create a really awesome economic calamity.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: MurrayS Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444667 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 1:11 PM
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I don't want him to fail, i have skin in this game, i know he's going to fail, because his policies are stupid. You'll see.

Hindsight is certainly more clear than foresight and I can't see much, if any, success in the rearview mirror.

We will definitely see.

-murray

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Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 1:15 PM
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What DOES make me angry is those who hope our President fails because if this President fails, we all will fail.

To take a page from the Democrat playbook, it depends on what you mean by "fail."

If he succeeds in making terrorists like us more by being weak and vulnerable to attack, how can we support that?

If he succeeds in repeating the mistakes of Hoover/FDR; silencing, Chavez-style, the voices of political opposition; hijacking the census to manipulate the numbers in his favor; continuing to craft legislation behind locked doors and forcing votes before anyone but lobbyists have had a chance to see it; etc., etc., then how can we wish him success?

It will be better for the country in the long run if he fails at socialism and people come to their senses to restore freedom than if he succeeds and the whole country ends up like that Democratic display case CA.

--fleg

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Author: GringoFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444675 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 1:21 PM
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I read the news and stay informed .... What I do NOT do, is deliberately expose myself to TV news - which I think is sensationalist stuff designed to hype people up - or political shows or blogs, or the like, or expose myself more than I need to, as it does nothing except to feed anxiety... Your own attitude controls a lot. Being angry is useless. .... Beyond that life rolls on and you with it, and trying to make the larger world behave the way you wish it would is both fruitless and destructive.


Good stuff.

D@mn, I can't believe I find myself agreeing with a Gingko post. I must be going soft in my old age.

G.F.

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Author: TMFSpeck Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444690 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 1:48 PM
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I'm angry because we did everything right. We got good educations, worked hard, had good jobs, lived below our means, saved money for our retirement, never asked for anything from anybody and we're getting screwed.

I'm still unclear on how this is Obama's fault.

Speck

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Author: Pituophis Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444694 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 1:55 PM
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thanks to the election of Obama/Pelosi/Reid would celebrate the incompetent, penalize the cautious and prudent, reward the slackers, ....

Not sure how I'm going to do that since the market has wiped out about 1/3 of our net worth, but I am going to attempt to get our income from prudent investments down low enough to not attract any attention from these vipers.......


.....I'm angry because we did everything right......We got good educations...




I'm angry too. Only I'm angry at the people who are actually RESPONSIBLE for the economic crisis this country is facing.

1/3 of your net worth has been wiped and you're angry with Obama and Pelosi???

OBVIOUSLY you did NOT do everything right. OBVIOUSLY you did not learn to think. OBVIOUSLY you VOTED for the people who preached the gospel of deregulation and trickle down economics that added $10 trillion dollars to the debt, destroyed the value of the dollar and brought us to the brink of economic Armageddon - who ARE RESPONSIBLE for the loss of 1/3 of your net worth.

And OBVIOUSLY you are going to CONTINUE to make that same stupid mistake because you choose to substitute ideology and talking points for an actual thought process. You are seriously deluded.

You got good educations? Really? What a waste.

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444698 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 2:06 PM
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OBVIOUSLY you VOTED for the people who preached the gospel of deregulation

Can you give an example of deregulation under Bush that had anything to do with anything? Or is that another talking point you like to mindlessly repeat? Was Sarbanes-Oxley deregulation?

The crisis was initiated by the Fed keeping interest rates too low for too long while Democrats forced banks to make risky loans and forced Freddie and Fannie to back risky mortgages, then later blocked several Repub attempts to reign in those risks due to the big donations they got from F&F. Paulson screwed things up royally but it would never have gotten to the point where he could have done so if Dems hadn't prepared the playing field so well. We didn't have any say over Greenspan's appointment and we certainly didn't vote for Frank, Dodd or Schumer.

But leaving the past behind, why do you think that imitating Hoover/FDR with their combined record of a 10-year depression (longer absent WWII) is going to be helpful going forward?

--fleg

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Author: PK227 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444702 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 2:21 PM
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"You got good educations? Really? What a waste." Says Pituophis

I seem to remember that I blamed both sides, or perhaps reading comprehension was not your strong point during your superior educational experience.

If you know, specifically, who is responsible for this mess, you should be sharing your expertise with our government. They seem to need some guidance. There's plenty of blame to go around on both sides and in the irresponsible risk-taking behavior of our financial institutions and real estate speculators. In addition, it is impossible to regulate crooks. Mr. Madoff was investigated numerous times by the regulators and he was successful in hiding his crimes.

My biggest concern right now is that our government appears to be out of control. They are spending/printing money we don't have to, instead of addressing the problem (as during the savings & loan collapse), feed their long-awaited pet projects and reward their supporters. Many of these projects would have been irresponsible during good times. We will all have to wait to see how this all turns out but, on the surface, it appears we are sliding down a very slippery slope and common sense has left the building.

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Author: Pituophis Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444704 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 2:32 PM
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The crisis was initiated by the Fed keeping interest rates too low for too long while Democrats forced banks to make risky loans and forced Freddie and Fannie to back risky mortgages.....


what a laugh - sad thing is I think you really believe that - you are right about Repug-friendly, Bush loving Greenspan keeping interest rates so low for so long to try to delay the negative effects of Bush's tax cut and spend policies - but from there on, just as in the OP, you substitute talking points, lies really, for an actual thought process...what a shame...

... and clearly there's a whole crew of mindless ideologues on this board engaging in some kind of delusion-support circle jerk... "look I must not be THAT deluded because all these other guys believe it too!!!"

...have fun - I won't engage in pointless debates with anyone about their religion...

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Author: GringoFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444705 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 2:38 PM
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I figured PK227's origial post would get some recs. But I hadn't checked back to see just how many. I didn't have to. The flurry of visits and cr@p shoots by DRW's tells me it has made it to "Best of" status.

G.F.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444706 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 2:39 PM
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... and clearly there's a whole crew of mindless ideologues on this board engaging in some kind of delusion-support circle jerk... "look I must not be THAT deluded because all these other guys believe it too!!!"

...have fun - I won't engage in pointless debates with anyone about their religion...
-------------------------------------------------------------
You could say the same thing about liberals, actually liberals would be a much better fit for your above statements since PA liberals get many more recs or circle jerk stimulation.

2828

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444707 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 2:41 PM
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have fun - I won't engage in pointless debates with anyone about their religion

Translation: I can't find any evidence of Bush deregulation, so I'll hurl an insult instead.

--fleg

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Author: JoelCairo Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444713 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 3:12 PM
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Maybe, once the anger has subsided, you will expand your horizons and think about the events of the past 8 years that brought us to this point.

Perhaps you can save some of your anger for the Republicans who brought us to this point and who, now not in power, for the most part refused to even be civil to our President, much less grant him any kind of space to do what the people have mandated that he do.

Perhaps you can remember this is a democracy, and this bill is what we, the people, voted for. And we didn't need a split Supreme Court to seal the victory for us, as you did eight years ago. A victory that you called a mandate.

My savings and retirement are shot, too, and it is thanks to George Bush, Dick Cheney, Tom Delay, and the Republicans who ran this country into the ground over the past 8 years. My friends and I, all of whom worked and supported and voted for Obama, did all the right things, except convince enough people to make Gore an unambiguous winner. And we suffered through eight years of a government that not only wasted our money, destroyed the effectiveness of our bureaucracy (peanut butter, anyone?), borrowed outrageously, spent outrageously, and fostered a shift in wealth from most of the people to a few of the people.

Your dire straits have nothing to do with what you see as a wet fantasy but what the vast majority of your fellow citizens realize is an inadequate first step towards enormous problems that have been heading our way for a generation.

Do you teach your daughter to accept responsibility for poor decisions? Maybe you should practice what you preach.

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Author: jjbklb Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444717 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 3:21 PM
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..."And now you can be angry at us while we clean up the mess you made. I am more convinced than ever that in conservativeworld up really is down and down really is up. ..."

Keep in mind that there can be a GREAT difference between a Republican & a conservative.

Though I voted for Bush,he definitely did NOT practice conservatism while in office and was a disappointment to me.Fine on defense.

But got an F on immigration control,& F minus on spending control.

Also remember the mess mainly was the democrats ongoing pressure to make Fannie & Freddie give mortgages to people who would not otherwise qualify for them.Bundled crap-mortgages were sprinkled throughout the investment world & poisoned the market.

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Author: sacca Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444718 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 3:25 PM
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I knew that our country would now, thanks to the election of Obama/Pelosi/Reid would celebrate the incompetent, penalize the cautious and prudent, reward the slackers, and repay their union leader/green/global warming supporters...

Wow, not an iota of assignment to the Bush neocons who drove us into the financial ditch over the past 8 years! Poof, it all just happened in 3 weeks with the Democrats, eh?

Before Bush took the wheel in 2000 the US had a nice surplus. His idiotic Iraq War has drained the Treasury of a couple TRILLION. Does that concern you?

Does it concern you that the Military Industrial Complex (the Dept of Defense) can not account for 25% -- that's $2.3 TRILLION dollars -- of OUR tax dollars. The Iraq War was a RACKET to fill the pockets of GOP donors. Wake UP!! http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main32...

I hear your hurt and like millions of Americans I can sympathize with you, but you are WAY off base in where you assign blame.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444737 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 4:42 PM
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<<what a laugh - sad thing is I think you really believe that - you are right about Repug-friendly, Bush loving Greenspan keeping interest rates so low for so long to try to delay the negative effects of Bush's tax cut and spend policies >>


Why, Obama is doing pretty much the same thing for the same reason right now. Just another example of where Obama is filling George Bush's third term.



So far, I'm having a great time teasing my Obama loving friends about these things!


Seattle Pioneer

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Author: blueskysforever Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444739 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 4:57 PM
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I'm angry because we did everything right. We got good educations, worked hard, had good jobs, lived below our means, saved money for our retirement, never asked for anything from anybody and we're getting screwed. It's just wrong.....


So now you finally see that Bush/Cheney were the crooks that everyone was telling you about.

Arrest Bush!

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444740 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 4:58 PM
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History doesn't bear you out, and you know it.

jwiest


I'm not going to argue that George W. Bush was a fiscal conservative because he was not. However, I will never believe that American Democrat politicians will be fiscally conservative (except when it comes to cutting military spending). If they were fiscal conservatives, they would not be Democrats. We have two or four years to see what kind of job your Democrat politicians do. I say they make things much worse.

Mike

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444741 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 5:02 PM
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>> I'm not going to argue that George W. Bush was a fiscal conservative because he was not. However, I will never believe that American Democrat politicians will be fiscally conservative (except when it comes to cutting military spending). If they were fiscal conservatives, they would not be Democrats. <<

Well, we did have a few years where the combination of a Democratic president and a Republican Congress were fairly good about holding the line on spending. In contrast, the combination of GOP president AND GOP Congress, as well as any president with a Democratic Congress, haven't been terribly effective at stopping runaway spending.

#29

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444742 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 5:03 PM
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History doesn't bear you out, and you know it.

jwiest


I'm not going to argue that George W. Bush was a fiscal conservative because he was not. However, I will never believe that American Democrat politicians will be fiscally conservative (except when it comes to cutting military spending). If they were fiscal conservatives, they would not be Democrats. We have two or four years to see what kind of job your Democrat politicians do. I say they make things much worse.

Mike


It's true that Democrats will never be fiscally conservative, and they certainly won't be fiscally responsible. Did you know that the last time that the Federal government ran a surplus when we had a Democrat-controlled Congress was 1969? And before that, it was 1960.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444746 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 5:36 PM
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What DOES make me angry is those who hope our President fails because if this President fails, we all will fail.

I *definitely* hope that the President fails, and by that I mean that I hope that he fails in achieving his socialist agenda, because if he does succeed in passing his agenda, then we all will fail.

The best that we can hope for is that Obama was insincere in his campaign promises or that he is incompetent in bringing them about. Unfortunately, it looks like he will be successful in massively expanding government, even expanding it far more than Bush expanded it.

We are in big trouble. Who is going to save us from the government?

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444747 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 5:38 PM
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... and clearly there's a whole crew of mindless ideologues on this board engaging in some kind of delusion-support circle jerk... "look I must not be THAT deluded because all these other guys believe it too!!!"

...have fun - I won't engage in pointless debates with anyone about their religion...
-------------------------------------------------------------
You could say the same thing about liberals, actually liberals would be a much better fit for your above statements since PA liberals get many more recs or circle jerk stimulation.

2828
------------------------------------------------------------
I think i made my point with this thread alone <g>. Mission Accomplished <salute>.

2828

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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444751 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 5:51 PM
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I'm angry because we did everything right. We got good educations, worked hard, had good jobs, lived below our means, saved money for our retirement, never asked for anything from anybody and we're getting screwed. It's just wrong.

So, if this is the results what makes you think you did everything right? Or anything? Life is about choices and you chose wrong. It happened, therefore it must be your fault. Stop blaming somebody else. Bootstraps , Son. It's all about the bootstraps. I suggest you get some and work harder. You make your own luck.

Or how about this: Life ain't fair. Eat it. Or does that only applyto people who are not like you?

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Author: Guppy738 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444758 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 6:46 PM
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DufusGoneSplat,

Wow! Your life sucks! Get a rope!

--------------------------

You are a complete jerk. I have reported this post.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444760 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 7:02 PM
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MC Did you know that the last time that the Federal government ran a surplus when we had a Democrat-controlled Congress was 1969?

LMAO!

That was the LAST TIME the Fed gov ran a surplus (causing the national debt to decline) under any administration. Under "big spender" Johnson. Not under Nixon. Not under Ford. Not under Carter. Not under Reagan or Bush I. Not even under Clinton. Certainly not under Bush II who doubled the national debt.

http://home.att.net/~rdavis2/debt09.html

Debt as a percent of GDP fell from Truman through Carter, skyrocketed under Reagan-Bush, fell under Clinton, and jumped again under Bush II.

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

Facts.

Peter

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Author: beaconclks Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444766 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 7:28 PM
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Debt as a percent of GDP fell from Truman through Carter, skyrocketed under Reagan-Bush, fell under Clinton, and jumped again under Bush II.

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

Facts.

Peter

_______________________________________


Aww baloney!

When it's convenient, you fall all over yourselves to forget the Congress' role. Debt from overspending, even when tax receipts skyrocketed under Reagan, that's pretty shameful on the part of Congress.

Congress has a little to do with the budget and spending, no?


BTW,

want to see an example of how utterly stupid Harry Reid is? This man's stupidity is exceeded only by his dishonesty and corruption. According to the man who runs the Senate, "Paying income tax in America is Voluntary".

This senator is too dumb to understand a simple concept:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7mRSI8yWwg

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444767 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 7:32 PM
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MC Did you know that the last time that the Federal government ran a surplus when we had a Democrat-controlled Congress was 1969?

LMAO!

That was the LAST TIME the Fed gov ran a surplus (causing the national debt to decline) under any administration. Under "big spender" Johnson. Not under Nixon. Not under Ford. Not under Carter. Not under Reagan or Bush I. Not even under Clinton. Certainly not under Bush II who doubled the national debt.


As I have explained before, the relevant debt is the "Debt Held by the Public," not the "Total Public Debt Outstanding." Non-accountants pretty much always get this wrong. I explained this issue here:

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=27422422

So you are wrong even by your own definition of surplus (i.e. a decline in the national debt). The national debt declined in 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444770 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 7:36 PM
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...have fun - I won't engage in pointless debates with anyone about their religion... Pituophis
--------------------------------------------------------
I think i made my point with this thread alone <g>. Mission Accomplished <salute>. -2828

---------------------------------------


As long as you guys are experiencing plenty of duality and separation the mission is accomplished. Everything is happening as it should be.

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444771 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 7:40 PM
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So, if this is the results what makes you think you did everything right? Or anything? Life is about choices and you chose wrong. It happened, therefore it must be your fault. Stop blaming somebody else. Bootstraps , Son. It's all about the bootstraps. I suggest you get some and work harder. You make your own luck.

Or how about this: Life ain't fair. Eat it. Or does that only applyto people who are not like you? - FCorelli

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


There may be some board participants that might not realize you are being facetious? You might want to put <sarcasm/on> and <sarcasm/off> stickers at the end of your posts?

What FCorelli is making fun of are those people who like to say

"I got mine - screw everyone else!"

Art

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Author: PK227 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444772 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 7:40 PM
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Thanks Guppy738! There's a serious downside to making the "Best Of"....seems to attract all the really nasty, mean people who never seem to add any information, but simply attack the messenger. I was just sharing my concerns with my RECF friends. I truly appreciate the support. I have enjoyed reading the posts on this site for many years because people here share information and don't scream at each other. I apologize to our regular members for attracting all this vitriol.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444773 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 7:50 PM
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Thanks Guppy738! There's a serious downside to making the "Best Of"....seems to attract all the really nasty, mean people who never seem to add any information, but simply attack the messenger. I was just sharing my concerns with my RECF friends. I truly appreciate the support. I have enjoyed reading the posts on this site for many years because people here share information and don't scream at each other. I apologize to our regular members for attracting all this vitriol.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I enjoyed it, and even if you didn't it was all neatly contained in one thread. I like the fact that every once in awhile when a post creates duality we get to see all the non-ideological free thinkers come out of the woodwork with almost identical responses and rec each others posts <g>. I do free bad for andrew though, i bet he falls much further behind in catching up.

2828

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444777 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 8:18 PM
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I was just sharing my concerns with my RECF friends. I truly appreciate the support. I have enjoyed reading the posts on this site for many years because people here share information and don't scream at each other. I apologize to our regular members for attracting all this vitriol.

PK227


Keep on posting. No need to apologize. It's actually good for us to see the other side post so we can see what we're up against in this country. I get a kick out of seeing these guys post that the Democrats will be fiscally responsible. The public schools have done a fine job of brainwashing the masses.

It will also be interesting to see Obama and the Dem peaceniks deal with a serious military crisis. I predict that this will be handled like Jimmy Carter or that wimp Sec Def Les Aspin. If I had relatives in the military I'd be advising them to leave as soon as their enlistment periods were up.

Mike

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444780 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 8:22 PM
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Economists predicted the Reagan deficits fairly accurately, after which Republicans reinvented history to blame the Democratic Congress which even though the Democratic Congress passed almost exactly the budgets Reagan asked for

Just for the record, Reagan had a Republican majority in the Senate for most of his eight years in office. There was a decent Democratic majority in the House, but many Conservatives in the Democratic party had not yet "officially" moved to the Republican party, and so Reagan could cobble together a working majority in the house because of Republicans and (what are now called) Blue Dog Democrats.

It is not accurate to say that Reagan "had a Democratic Congress." Reagan pretty much got what he wanted. OPEC even chipped in by breaking into fractious argument as production surged and oil prices collapsed to 1/3 of what they had been just a few years earlier.

He was a masterful orator and that is good, particularly in times of economic trouble, but he was also the luckiest SOB who's had the office in decades.

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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444786 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 10:06 PM
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There may be some board participants that might not realize you are being facetious?

NO!? Well I never...!

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Author: JohnEBgood Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444789 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 10:25 PM
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In the original post, PK227 wrote:

I knew that our country would now, thanks to the election of Obama/Pelosi/Reid would celebrate the incompetent, penalize the cautious and prudent, reward the slackers, and repay their union leader/green/global warming supporters....

Then, in post #444787

I seem to remember that I blamed both sides, or perhaps reading comprehension was not your strong point during your superior educational experience.

Are you JOKING? Yeah, you said something about not supporting McCain, but it is clear where your hatred lies.

And it does look like blind hatred to me. You are implying that Obama/Pelosi/Reid are running around spending money just for fun. As was so well explained by the posts following yours, our elected officials are trying to dig us out of a really deep hole. You clearly do not agree with their priorites (I loved that "union leader/green/global warming" smear). After all, who cares about human workers or the environment???? And screw healthcare and education.
Those are, after all, for the "slackers".

We need to get money back to guys like you, who have "done everything right"

Hey...we just got rid of a president who "did everything right" Fortunately, about 7/10 Americans saw him for what he was.

Jack

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Author: tjscott0 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444790 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 10:34 PM
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jjbklb:Keep in mind that there can be a GREAT difference between a Republican & a conservative.

Yep many on this board & at conservative think tanks weren't too happy with Bush free spending ways.

A Cato July 31, 2003 piece titled ""Conservative" Bush Spends More than "Liberal" Presidents Clinton, Carter".

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3184

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Author: tjscott0 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444791 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 10:38 PM
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Gink:"I firmly believe in the power of meditation"
Art"Yepper, that's what I'm talking about."

Well I suppose meditation has it place. That place is well behind consumption of icy cold Coronas or Icehouses to attain a mellowness.;-)

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444792 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 11:00 PM
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MC The one thing that I disagree with is that they do not include the liabilities for Social Security or Medicare, which I think should definitely be included.

So first you say that the federal government can borrow over $4 billion dollars from US wage earners but we don't need to count that because it's not real debt.

Then you say immediately say we have a big problem because we are not considering our liabilities to US wage earners.

Schitzo.

Peter

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444793 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 11:02 PM
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"'I'm still unclear on how this is Obama's fault."

Because he and his tax cheating, text messaging crowd think that dumping a big bag of money on the heads of people who lived far above their means, is going to solve the current problems. Instead of letting the economy correct itself naturally, we are going to encourage people to incur more debt and spend more money in some kind of hope that doing so will pull us out of this mess.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444795 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 11:18 PM
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Sorry, make that:

So first you say that the federal government can borrow over $4 TRILLION dollars from US wage earners but we don't need to count that because it's not real debt.

$4,305,430,672,520.17 to be exact.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

If we had borrowed that money from Saudi Arabia, I imagine the royal family would be quite nervous about your theory that it is not real debt.

Peter

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444797 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/14/2009 11:49 PM
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... and clearly there's a whole crew of mindless ideologues on this board engaging in some kind of 
delusion-support circle jerk... 
"look I must not be THAT deluded because all these other guys believe it too!!!"

...have fun - I won't engage in pointless debates with anyone about their religion... 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Can't argue there <g>:

 
 Recommended Post  Recs  Board  Author  Date  
Re: I am very angry  85  Retire Early CampFIRE  jwiest  2/14/09 9:36 AM  
Re: I am very angry  66  Retire Early CampFIRE  Pituophis  2/14/09 1:55 PM  
Re: I am very angry  58  Retire Early CampFIRE  jgc123  2/14/09 10:03 AM  
Relentlessly Stupid  42  Political Asylum  bufftrainer  2/14/09 12:17 AM  
Re: Lynn Swann For Senate (PA)  41  Political Asylum  BlueGrits  2/14/09 12:34 PM  
Re: I am very angry  40  Retire Early CampFIRE  MurrayS  2/14/09 12:52 PM  
Repub strategy on stimulus vote  34  Political Asylum  salaryguru  2/14/09 2:10 AM  
Don't they have anything BETTER to do?  33  Political Asylum  JohnEBgood  2/13/09 11:42 PM  
Re: I am very angry  30  Retire Early CampFIRE  JoelCairo  2/14/09 3:12 PM  
Re: I am very angry  30  Retire Early CampFIRE  jwiest  2/14/09 12:10 PM  
Alternative Methods 3  25  Macro Economic Trends and Risks  totolapse  2/14/09 12:41 AM  
Just a thought on these debt deals  24  Berkshire Hathaway  mungofitch  2/14/09 7:56 AM  
Re: I am very angry  21  Retire Early CampFIRE  TMFSpeck  2/14/09 1:48 PM  
Re: I am very angry  20  Retire Early CampFIRE  jgc123  2/14/09 12:50 PM  
Re: Frontline on the financial meltdown  20  Berkshire Hathaway  mungofitch  2/14/09 6:15 AM  
Which Is it?  18  Free For All Economics  PolymerMom  2/14/09 12:01 AM  
Re: I am very angry  17  Retire Early CampFIRE  sacca  2/14/09 3:25 PM  
Re: Home Sweet Home  17  Living Below Your Means  rita205  2/14/09 7:58 AM  
Re: OT: Black Swans Can Be Predicted  16  Mechanical Investing  mrmeyer  2/14/09 10:38 AM  
Obamateur Hour  14  Retire Early CampFIRE  2828  2/14/09 12:05 PM  
Re: I am very angry  12  Retire Early CampFIRE  jwiest  2/14/09 12:38 PM  
Stat Update links to Inv.Village  12  Real Estate Inv. Trusts: REITs  factoids  2/14/09 12:30 PM  
Re: I am very angry  12  Retire Early CampFIRE  2828  2/14/09 9:54 AM  
A Macro Economic Valentines Day  11  Macro Economic Trends and Risks  desertdaveataol  2/14/09 6:23 PM  
Re: I am very angry   11  Retire Early CampFIRE  jwiest  2/14/09 12:17 PM
------------------------------------------------------ 
11 out of the top 25 rec'd posts. I think you liberals have given new meaning to mindless ideologs. 
"Look i must not be THAT deluded because they believe it too!" 
Like shooting fish in a barrel.


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Author: PK227 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444802 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 12:50 AM
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"We need to get money back to guys like you, who have "done everything right"" Says JohnEBGood

Oh, Jack, Jack, Jack. I don't want you to give me anything. Don't you listen? I just don't want you to take my money away from me to pay for silly projects and give it people who have made a living ... living off handouts from the government or choose to not participate in this great nation of ours. Clinton did a great job reforming Welfare and put thousands of people back to work when he put a limit to the dole. This bill undoes what he did, I understand. And may I ask..why? and Why Now? I'll be fine. I was just venting. Had I not made all those good decisions, I would not be fine...but would have been rewarded in this bill.

"but it is clear where your hatred lies." I have no hatred for anybody....a lot of concern and perhaps scorn, but no hatred. I also said ... go back and read it....that the republicans were getting no more support from me because they had their opportunity and squandered it. I don't like either side but I do admit that I think that spending billions for a light rail from Los Angeles to Las Vegas as part of a stimulus bill that was pushed by the head of the Senate from Nevada makes me a little ill. The endless list of garbage in this bill is, IMHO, irresponsible.

Please tell me why "union leader/green/global warming" is a smear. That is what the democratic party believes in. I don't. Not sure why that makes my disagreement with their choosing to spend money on these priorities at this time (like us being bankrupt) is a smear. Please tell me how spending one dime repaying Unions for their financial support (amassed with involuntary dues payments from their members) is going to stimulate this economy. Paying 25% over union wages for jobs supported by the govt in this bill is lunacy. The Davis Bacon Act should have been ashcanned years ago. There are thousands of people who would be thrilled to death to take these jobs at prevailing wages. To pay more to placate the unions flys in the face of every rational economic principle. Global Warming is a money making machine for Gore and his buddies and for any scientist who has a hope of getting a govt grant for research. Follow the money. Just my opinion, of course. Free Speech and all that.

Education is a disaster thanks to the Unions. There seems to be no end to their needs. $14,000 per student per year isn't enough. It will never be enough. Tenure is an incredible license to steal. No accountability...incompetent teachers kept on payroll for years....NYC has HUNDREDS of teachers sitting in a room at full pay because they are too incompetent to teach and it's too expensive to fire them. This is NUTS. The party is over for us all....but the teacher's union didn't get the memo, apparently. You want Corporations to stop ordering jets (putting hundreds of jet builders out of jobs), how about opening jobs for competent teachers by getting rid of the incompetent ones? Oh, and then there's that thing about them having 3 months of annual vacation, full medical, full retirement in their 50's and we're all supposed to swoon when they talk about being underpaid. Sorry. I also believe that the education bureaucracy is equally out of control. No accountability. Charter Schools in AZ have scared the public schools into improving and actually competing for students. Very healthy. Another program opposed by Obama, etc and the Unions. Why?

You will not find a person, including me, that says that Bush did everything right. Neither did Clinton. Neither did Bush, Sr. Neither did Reagan. And God knows, Carter didn't and this is starting to feel like Carter II. They are going to make mistakes. But when you have one party running the govt and we have the kind of "winner takes all" and 48% of the public be dammed mentality that's going on within our govt, we should all be concerned. They are too consumed with fighting with each other to compromise like adults and be prudent with our money.

This rant was WAY too long....

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Author: cgrinder Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444805 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 1:03 AM
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What DOES make me angry is those who hope our President fails because if this President fails, we all will fail. This isn't some sort of ideological game of "your guy must lose", this is our country's future, my daughter's future, at stake here.

i am angry at the "treasonous" loud mouth who said that he hoped the president fails. i didn't vote for obama but proclaiming on the world stage that he hoped america's current leadership would fail is much worse than anything don imus ever said.

with thinking and acting like that it makes it difficult for this country to fix its problems.

it looks like we will be joining the greeks, romans, and other empires of days gone by.

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Author: cgrinder Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444806 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 1:24 AM
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i find it quite humorous when congress gets blamed for budget over spending. the president signs the budget bill into law.

i don't remember Ike, Kennedy, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, or Bush II vetoing the budget bill.

Reagan tried once, but it didn't last more than a couple of days. he had a chance to change the course but didn't have the stones to finish the job!

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444807 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 1:40 AM
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Because he and his tax cheating, text messaging crowd
Sometimes I think I'm down the rabbit hole when I read this board.

OK - let me get this straight - text-messaging is bad? Or is it cellphones? Technology? People under 75 who know how to text? Young executives? Teenagers with pink cellphone covers?

Personally, I don't text message at all. I am trying to combat this corrosive moral influence by only beating out my messages on drums from the top of nearby mountains. Or failing that, to use e-mail. But this new-fangled sissified, heck-in-a-handbasket sign of the new world order "text-messaging"? Well, I just don't trust it or anyone who uses it.

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Author: saunafool Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444820 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 5:49 AM
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fleg,

The Right in America is engaged in some serious revisionist history these days. The two lies they keep repeating are that CRA, Fannie and Freddie caused the current financial problems. The second is that the New Deal didn't work. Neither one holds water.

The crisis was initiated by the Fed keeping interest rates too low for too long while Democrats forced banks to make risky loans and forced Freddie and Fannie to back risky mortgages, then later blocked several Repub attempts to reign in those risks due to the big donations they got from F&F.

Again, blaming it on the poor people. Why are there so many million dollar homes in foreclosure? No one forced the banks to make those loans to high income people? Malibu and Santa Barbara property values don't fall just because people in Compton start defaulting. A lack of lending standards across the board that caused the current mess, not just on the low-income side of things.

Plus, the majority of the MBS paper for sub-prime, alt-a, and other "innovative" loan products were bought and sold through Wall Street investment banks, not through Fannie and Freddie. (Fannie and Freddie are corrupt organizations who have no purpose, but they weren't the main cause of the current financial crisis.)

The Credit Default Swap was the cause, as I have recently explained. Take away the CDS, and the banks no longer have "insurance" against default on the loans. Lacking this "insurance," lenders and buyers of mortgage securities need to do due diligence like they always did in the past. Take away the CDS (or regulate it to require a reasonable coverage ratio like regular insurance) and the crisis doesn't happen.

But leaving the past behind, why do you think that imitating Hoover/FDR with their combined record of a 10-year depression (longer absent WWII) is going to be helpful going forward?

This is so obviously revisionist history it is laughable. The New Deal began with FDR, but you want to blame FDR for the last 3 years of Hoover's term when unemployment rose to 25%. During 1930 and 1931, Hoover passed no meaningful legislation to stop the slide.

Yet, it helps your view of the world to blame FDR for Hoover's failure to act. So, you spread this myth also.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Timeline.htm

I'm sure FDR was a lousy President. That's why every poll and ranking of U.S. presidents puts him in the top 3 of all time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_S...

Since Hoover had the same policies, why isn't he right there with him? I don't know, I guess all those historians just hate Republicans. Must be the liberal media bias.

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Author: TMFSpeck Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444822 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 6:56 AM
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Because he and his tax cheating, text messaging crowd think that dumping a big bag of money on the heads of people who lived far above their means, is going to solve the current problems. Instead of letting the economy correct itself naturally, we are going to encourage people to incur more debt and spend more money in some kind of hope that doing so will pull us out of this mess.

The OP complained about how 1/3 of his net worth has been wiped out, and I ask -- again -- how that is Obama's fault. You may disagree with the stimulus package just passed by Congress, but it has not even been signed into law yet, so it certainly can't be to blame.

So now, not only am I still unclear about how this is Obama's fault, I'm equally unclear, and quite curious, about the role of text messaging in this whole affair.


Speck

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444825 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 8:06 AM
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The OP complained about how 1/3 of his net worth has been wiped out, and I ask -- again -- how that is Obama's fault. You may disagree with the stimulus package just passed by Congress, but it has not even been signed into law yet, so it certainly can't be to blame.

Speck
----------------------------------------------------------
Not that someone at the Fool would know, but the stock market is a forward looking mechanism. The Dow is down 20% since election day. The only man who was capable of running the Treasury was a total disaster last week. Obama is in permanent campaign mode. People aren't stupid, they see the policies being put in place, protectionism, unionization, pork, welfare, etc. etc. I realize you're trying to be obtuse and coy on purpose, but maybe as an interactive designer here at the Fool you should be more concerned with making the site more antiquated and slow, maybe you can work with more of the Fool braintrust into making the "EQLIVE" page come up a little more, "Ouch".

2828

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Author: YellowCakie Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444828 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 8:38 AM
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"Just for the record, Reagan had a Republican majority in the Senate for most of his eight years in office. There was a decent Democratic majority in the House...It is not accurate to say that Reagan 'had a Democratic Congress.'"


The problem we seem to be having is the above is apparently what passes for "liberal's logic."

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444832 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 8:46 AM
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""'I'm still unclear on how this is Obama's fault.""

Even worse, Obama and the Pelosi clones are out to repeat the same mistakes...

a) Forcing banks to loan, regardless of the credit worthiness of the borrower

b) Bailing out the irresponsible so they can speculate again, with those who were responsible and didn't overspend baling out those who weren't.

c) Trying to 'keep up' housing prices. the market needs to self correct. Meddling just makes things worse

d) Trying to create below cost fed loans - say 4% mortgages - which will meddle with the free markets, encourage another housing bubble....

The gov't needs to let the housing market sort itself out. As prices drop, more will really be able to afford houses. Subsidizing certain groups is not the answer, since when the subsidies end, or if all the borrowing runs up inflation, everyone else , including the entire economy, loses.

t.

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Author: JustWhoIAm Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444833 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 8:47 AM
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Perhaps you can remember this is a democracy, and this bill is what we, the people, voted for.

I was not asked to cast a vote on this bill. I've not had a chance to read through the 1074 pages. Of course those who did vote for it, never read the thing either.

Keith

P.S. Cut spending across the board.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444834 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 8:57 AM
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"What DOES make me angry is those who hope our President fails because if this President fails, we all will fail. This isn't some sort of ideological game of "your guy must lose", this is our country's future, my daughter's future, at stake here."

No...quite the contrary. If Obama's liberal left wing agenda 'succeeds', you'll have 20 years of stagnant economy, with highly unionized inefficient work force full of flab and fat, an anti-business and anti-profit orientation, and full redistribution of 'wealth' from those who succeed to those who just 'take'.

Sorry, but Obama's agenda is not to preserve the America we know, but institute the left wing policies of George Soros and the 'One World' economy.

WHen 200 million get funneled to Phillipine War Veterans, tens of millions to corrupt ACORN, billions to unions, 30 million to Pelosi's pet project, 8 billion to Harry Reid's 'high speed rail' from Disneyland to Gambling Land, you know you have problems. And it's all borrowed money.

"The Dow is down 20% since election day. The only man who was capable of running the Treasury was a total disaster last week. Obama is in permanent campaign mode. People aren't stupid, they see the policies being put in place, protectionism, unionization, pork, welfare, etc. etc."

Right on..no socialist society has ever succeeded, no less survived. Europe is backpeddling as fast as possible and their health care systems are about to collapse in many countries.

Obama is so politically naive he tells folks NOT to have conventions in Las Vegas, which results in dozens of conventions being cancelled, and another 20,000 workers in the state on the unemployment lists. What an idiot!.......no brains.....

He can't be campaigning as Pres.....going for 'political points' rather than actually governing.

So far, all he seems to be doing is looking for press coverage.....daily news bits....rather than actually doing the tough work of governing and leading.

t.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444836 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 9:06 AM
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The gov't needs to let the housing market sort itself out. As prices drop, more will really be able to afford houses. Subsidizing certain groups is not the answer, since when the subsidies end, or if all the borrowing runs up inflation, everyone else , including the entire economy, loses.

t.
--------------------------------------------------------
How would Adam Smith fix the present mess? Sorry, but it is fixed already. The answer to a decline in the value of speculative assets is to pay less for them. Job done.

~P.J. O'Rourke in the Financial Times

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Author: GringoFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444838 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 9:13 AM
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11 out of the top 25 rec'd posts. I think you liberals have given new meaning to mindless ideologs.

2828


Did all those DRW's really post in this thread? Funny, I didn't see them. No wonder the thread seemed shorter to me.

G.F.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444843 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 9:34 AM
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OK - let me get this straight - text-messaging is bad? Or is it cellphones? Technology? People under 75 who know how to text? Young executives? Teenagers with pink cellphone covers?

Personally, I don't text message at all. I am trying to combat this corrosive moral influence by only beating out my messages on drums from the top of nearby mountains. Or failing that, to use e-mail. But this new-fangled sissified, heck-in-a-handbasket sign of the new world order "text-messaging"? Well, I just don't trust it or anyone who uses it. - gingko

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Okay, I admit, I've got a cell phone but I don't have a clue how to text message. My phone is over two years old and does all kind of stuff that I don't know how to use, like a camera and what not. I get text messages from my little niece and nephew (Rachel and Jacob) - but when I get one it confuses me. One time I stumbled on how to make it quit scrolling and appear like a letter, but I haven't been able to figure out what I did to make it do that?

What's strange is that Rachel and Jacob can pick up anything technology oriented and push buttons and their little fingers move so fast that I can't figure out what they are doing. It's like it's imprinted into their brains on how to use all this new fangled technology, and I'm like a caveman who has been transported into the 21st Century!

Art

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444852 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 10:00 AM
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i find it quite humorous when congress gets blamed for budget over spending. the president signs the budget bill into law.

There has never been a spending bill that was voted into law without Congress voting it into law. So many people people give the President 100% of the responsibility for the budget, when the President only has 100% of the responsibility for agreeing with what Congress approved (signing the bill) or rejecting it (vetoing it).

Every single member of Congress who votes for a bill needs to take responsibility for it.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444855 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 10:14 AM
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The crisis was initiated by the Fed keeping interest rates too low for too long while Democrats forced banks to make risky loans and forced Freddie and Fannie to back risky mortgages, then later blocked several Repub attempts to reign in those risks due to the big donations they got from F&F.

Again, blaming it on the poor people. Why are there so many million dollar homes in foreclosure? No one forced the banks to make those loans to high income people? Malibu and Santa Barbara property values don't fall just because people in Compton start defaulting. A lack of lending standards across the board that caused the current mess, not just on the low-income side of things.


The biggest cause of the current financial crisis was the Federal reserve creating a real estate bubble by keeping interest rates way too low for way too long. The nature of the mortgage securities was such that they were extremely sensitive to real estate prices, which made the collapse in real estate prices a disaster.

The other factors contributed (i.e. the GSAs, etc.), but they played a more minor role.

But leaving the past behind, why do you think that imitating Hoover/FDR with their combined record of a 10-year depression (longer absent WWII) is going to be helpful going forward?

This is so obviously revisionist history it is laughable. The New Deal began with FDR, but you want to blame FDR for the last 3 years of Hoover's term when unemployment rose to 25%. During 1930 and 1931, Hoover passed no meaningful legislation to stop the slide.

Yet, it helps your view of the world to blame FDR for Hoover's failure to act. So, you spread this myth also.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Timeline.htm


You are creating your own myth about FDR. The money supply explains how we fell into the Great Depression and how we got out:

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/depmon.htm

The money supply collapsed until 1933, then began growing again, then decreased again in 1938 (when we coincidentally had a recession with the depression), and then began growing again.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444863 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 10:50 AM
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MC The one thing that I disagree with is that they do not include the liabilities for Social Security or Medicare, which I think should definitely be included.

So first you say that the federal government can borrow over $4 billion dollars from US wage earners but we don't need to count that because it's not real debt.

Then you say immediately say we have a big problem because we are not considering our liabilities to US wage earners.

Schitzo.

Peter


No, I'm saying that the Social Security and Medicare count as liabilities, but the debt owed to Social Security and Medicare by the Federal government does not.

On a consolidated government basis, the debt owed to SS/Medicare is "eliminated" (an accounting term) against the SS/Medicare's "assets."

                                              Assets  Liabilities
Fed gov't general fund

Bonds Payable to SS/Medicare 5,000


Social Security/Medicare
Bonds Receivable from Fed gov't general fund 5,000
Benefits Payable (present value) 50,000


Consolidated Total 0 50,000


The $5,000 in the above example is eliminated because the money is simply being moved from one pocket to the other when it gets paid. When the Federel gov't general fund repays the bonds, it decreases its cash, but then SS/Medicare increases its cash, so on a consolidated basis, nothing has happened.

It is the $50,000 that determines how much the government will eventually have to cough up, not the $5,000. The $5,000 is economically meaningless. This is why you should ignore the "Intragovernmental Holdings" when you look at the debt numbers.

The total Federal liability (debt plus other liabilities) equals the Debt Held by the Public plus the present value of Social Security and Medicare benefits (plus some other minor liabilities).

You would have been right to say that we haven't run a budget surplus on an *accrual* basis since 1969 (maybe even earlier), but that isn't what you said. And that wasn't what I was talking about. However, we would be better off talking about the accrual basis budget numbers since these better reflect economic reality, but they aren't available.

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Author: Jim2B Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444870 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 11:15 AM
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I don't want you to give me anything. Don't you listen? I just don't want you to take my money away from me to pay for silly projects and give it people who have made a living ... living off handouts from the government or choose to not participate in this great nation of ours. Clinton did a great job reforming Welfare and put thousands of people back to work when he put a limit to the dole. This bill undoes what he did, I understand. And may I ask..why? and Why Now? I'll be fine. I was just venting. Had I not made all those good decisions, I would not be fine...but would have been rewarded in this bill.

Two quick notes:

As far as fiscal responsibility goes, perhaps the most fiscally responsible of recent Presidents was Clinton. Gnu knows that he screwed up in multiple other areas but he did a great job (along with the Republican Congress) of holding the line here.

As far as stimulus goes, there are things we can do to "create" wealth and there are things we can do to "destroy" wealth. Very few of the things in the stimulus plan are of the wealth "creation" variety, while many of the things in the stimulus plan are of the wealth "destruction" variety.

Now the raw spending that this plan entails will help us in the short term. However, once that is done, we'll be right back where we started only deeper in debt. So if given a choice of a stimulus plan like we've got or doing nothing, I think that in the *long run* we'll be far better off doing nothing and letting the economy figure it out for itself.


Oh and one reason we keep picking Republicans is because the Democrats always promise to NOT be fiscally responsible. So our choices have been a party that sometimes promises responsibility but rarely displays it and the other party which always promises fiscal irresponsibility and always displays fiscal irresponsibility. It's a Hobson's choice but at least one of them offers a chance of getting what we want.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444874 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 11:35 AM
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MC However, we would be better off talking about the accrual basis budget numbers since these better reflect economic reality, but they aren't available.

You would talk about accrual numbers if they were available. If I had some ham I would have a ham and cheese sandwich if I had some cheese.

The 4.3 T of Intragovernmental Debt is a fraction of the SS liability but at least it is a real number. You would have me ignore it and yearn for a number that does not exist.

In the real world the 4.3 T represents borrowing from wage earners. They paid higher taxes over the last 30 years so that the richest Americans could pay lower taxes. When that borrowing is repaid it will fund SS through about 2040.

This is real stuff. Not accounting cancellations.

If we ever see this cycle of surplus and drawdown repeat in the future, I would hope that SS would invest the surplus in real assets such as metals and a basket of domestic and foreign bonds.

BTW, much of the SS liability does not exist either. It is based on assumptions about future payouts that may or may not happen. If need be, SS payments will be reduced to meet reality. At that point part of the accrued liability will dissapear and no bill collectors will ever come calling.

Peter

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Author: JimiH3ndrix Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444883 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 11:56 AM
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I'm angry because we did everything right. We got good educations, worked hard, had good jobs, lived below our means, saved money for our retirement, never asked for anything from anybody and we're getting screwed. It's just wrong.....

It's not wrong. It's the market.

It does't owe you a damned thing.

If you didn't plan for this sort of market contingency, then you retired too early, or you mismanaged your assets.

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Author: SirTas Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444884 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 11:56 AM
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I'm angry ...

A lot of people are angry. Millions. That's why we voted the crazies out.

Stop the madness!

--SirTas

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Author: saunafool Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444885 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 12:00 PM
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The biggest cause of the current financial crisis was the Federal reserve creating a real estate bubble by keeping interest rates way too low for way too long. The nature of the mortgage securities was such that they were extremely sensitive to real estate prices, which made the collapse in real estate prices a disaster.

I think the easy money policy from the Fed helped, but as you can see, the Fed Funds and mortgage rates barely correlate:
http://library.hsh.com/?row_id=91

I'm sticking with Credit Default Swaps as the root cause of the financial crisis.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444887 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 12:12 PM
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The biggest cause of the current financial crisis was the Federal reserve creating a real estate bubble by keeping interest rates way too low for way too long. The nature of the mortgage securities was such that they were extremely sensitive to real estate prices, which made the collapse in real estate prices a disaster.

I think the easy money policy from the Fed helped, but as you can see, the Fed Funds and mortgage rates barely correlate:
http://library.hsh.com/?row_id=91


It doesn't matter. Financial institutions were in effect being paid to borrow because the Fed Funds rate was negative in real terms. With all that cash and nowhere to put it, they lowered their standards.

I'm sticking with Credit Default Swaps as the root cause of the financial crisis.

That's your prerogative. I'll stick with the Fed as the explanation. When you see how many problems were created by the Fed throughout its history (like the Great Depression), then it isn't a stretch.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444889 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 12:19 PM
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MC However, we would be better off talking about the accrual basis budget numbers since these better reflect economic reality, but they aren't available.

You would talk about accrual numbers if they were available. If I had some ham I would have a ham and cheese sandwich if I had some cheese.

The 4.3 T of Intragovernmental Debt is a fraction of the SS liability but at least it is a real number. You would have me ignore it and yearn for a number that does not exist.


No, I would rather you focus on a meaningful number that is difficult to estimate than a number that is not meaningful but can be measured precisely.

If we ever see this cycle of surplus and drawdown repeat in the future, I would hope that SS would invest the surplus in real assets such as metals and a basket of domestic and foreign bonds.

SS already is running a surplus, so it could be buying real assets now. We won't do that though, because then the government would have to admit that it has been underreporting the deficit all these years.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444893 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 12:26 PM
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MC No, I would rather you focus on a meaningful number that is difficult to estimate than a number that is not meaningful but can be measured precisely.

Do you believe that the practical SS liability is LESS THAN the 4.3 T of Intragovernmental Debt?

Peter

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444894 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 12:29 PM
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MC SS already is running a surplus,

For 30 years.

so it could be buying real assets now. We won't do that though, because then the government would have to admit that it has been underreporting the deficit all these years.

And those Clinton surpluses you counted? They would turn to deficits also, right?

Peter

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444896 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 12:35 PM
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I'm angry ...

A lot of people are angry. Millions. That's why we voted the crazies out.
-------------------------------------------------------
No, we didn't vote them out, they're just taking a long weekend off in chicago, i checked.

2828

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444898 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 12:36 PM
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"OK - let me get this straight - text-messaging is bad? Or is it cellphones? Technology? People under 75 who know how to text? Young executives? Teenagers with pink cellphone covers?"

Text messaging is just a metaphor for the overindulgent hyperconsumerism that was pervasive over the last decade, and which in part led us to where we are today. Everybody wants to blame the Bush administration for all the world's ills, but no member of that administration ever put a gun to someone's head and forced them to refinance their home or make stupid purchases.

I see it all around me. The co-worker who sold an average size home, and moved to a house triple the size and then wonders why his property tax tripled. The other co-worker who lived far above her means, and moaned to me the other day how much her 401K had declined.

Pick the consumer item, and bigger became better. The $125 19" TV was no longer acceptable, but we all needed the $3000 78" large-screen/plasma/bluray/hd/razmataz model. The basic cable package was no longer enough, so we needed the 500 channel digital package with 7 versions of sports network. The basic Tracfone at an average cost of $10 a month was insufficient, but we all needed the 500,000 minute, unlimited text, family 7-phone plan so that everyone including the dog and cat had a phone. The average size vehicle was no longer any good, so we all needed the extra large hummer with chrome wheels, 2 dvd players, and the rootin' tootin' GPS that also places our resturant order.

We all collectively bought into this bigger is better lifestyle myth, paid for it with multiple home refinancings, and now, we blame George Bush and the republicans for somehow causing our individual problems. Sure, many people fell through the cracks, and need our help. But for the large majority, they chose the lifestyle, and now they want to blame someone else after it backfired. And for all this we need a $800B stimulus package??

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444899 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 12:37 PM
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MC No, I would rather you focus on a meaningful number that is difficult to estimate than a number that is not meaningful but can be measured precisely.

Do you believe that the practical SS liability is LESS THAN the 4.3 T of Intragovernmental Debt?

Peter


No. It is *far* more massive.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444900 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 12:42 PM
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"I'm angry ..."

A lot of people are angry. Millions. That's why we voted the crazies out.

-------------------------------------------------------
No, we didn't vote them out, they're just taking a long weekend off in chicago, i checked.

2828


I wish I was getting a long weekend off, but I have to work on Monday (even though it's a company holiday).

But then again, I'm not the President. I have a lot of important work that needs to get done.

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444901 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 12:47 PM
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MC SS already is running a surplus,

For 30 years.

so it could be buying real assets now. We won't do that though, because then the government would have to admit that it has been underreporting the deficit all these years.

And those Clinton surpluses you counted? They would turn to deficits also, right?

Peter


Don't you ever do your own homework?

The 1998 and 2001 surpluses would turn to deficits if they weren't allowed to include SS and Medicare. There would still be 1999 and 2000 surpluses. They would just be much smaller.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444902 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 12:50 PM
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Maybe, once the anger has subsided, you will expand your horizons and think about the events of the past 8 years that brought us to this point.

___________________
Perhaps some day, you'll grow up and realize both parties got us to where we are today, and the last 8 years didn't have all that much to do with it.

Perhaps, ssome day you'll recognize that as much as the left wants to blame the entire banking crisis on the greed of the banks. Fannie and Freddie and the government essentially forcing many loans that weren't meritted, DID cuse the original bubble to become outsized, and the rest of the mess doesn't happen without the assisnine policies Dems put in place (that Republicans wnet along with and furthered, but to their credit DID try to stop- rahter than lying about as did, Dodd, Frank, etc).

You on the left want to blame this on the war? ABsurd on steriods. THe war has an end, it is structural problems that got us where we are.

Historical perspectives take more than the simplicity they are4 given out here by both sides. with things like the deficit as a percentage of GDP being ignored.

What Obama has put in motion is bad policy, it is structural it is not stimulative, and makes he and the Dems bigger sneaks that anyone this country has ever seen, Even if you back the policies, you should see the underhanded BS that has been foisted on the nation. IT is slimier than anything I have ever witnesses.

Your lies about Bush's beaviour as heinous as they are, do not come close to the dirt that has been the Dems in this short period.
\
Perhaps Obama will rise above it, or was somhow not a part of it. I hope he was not, but can't see it, unless he is really a clown figurehead, but it is possible. I do give him credit for getting things done. I also give him credit for how he did, on the sneak, in te middle of the night hiiden with a veil of lies about what was being done.

You hero is some piece of work, and you have some set of nads complaining about aqnyone else's actions.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444904 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 12:55 PM
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"I *definitely* hope that the President fails, and by that I mean that I hope that he fails in achieving his socialist agenda, because if he does succeed in passing his agenda, then we all will fail."


I certrainly do not hope Obama fails. I hope he wakews up one day, and says, my God what have I done! Then starts to right the nation.

Heck I'll even root for him if he wakes one day and says, holy carp, I can't believe I've been such a sleezeball and listened to these people, I have snuck in the middle of the night under guise of crisis an entire agenda I didn't tell anyone about in place! Jeeez, I'm so sorry!

I heop Obama leads the nation to prosperity and sets us on the road to a better future, heck, I'll be happy if he just does the second- but at this point, there is no hint that recycling other country's failures here is going to do all that much good.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444907 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 1:24 PM
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...have fun - I won't engage in pointless debates with anyone about their religion...

So you'll save me the trouble of P-boxing you. What a guy.

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Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 1:29 PM
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So now, not only am I still unclear about how this is Obama's fault

He's taking a bad situation and making it worse.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444913 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 1:44 PM
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So now, not only am I still unclear about how this is Obama's fault

He's taking a bad situation and making it worse.
________________________________________

If you take the question in the spirit of how it was asked, your answer is correct, but there are some other factors one might add.

The market has not exactly embraced Obama, since it was evident he woud win until now, there hasn't been a very good reaction. In fact since it became evident a Dem would likely win, things have been pretty horrible.

Since the stimulus package was outed, things have gone a little further south, it didn't even start to break the momentum.

So, there are many reasons to blame Obama. But to be honest, I think most aren't blaming him for the current situation but for handling it in the worst way possible. HE has gotten is agenda passed, he has talked the nation down as much as possible. HE certainly has not done anything to address the problems of government as corrrupt and out of touch.

So there are quite a few objective ways to lay blame on Obama.

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Author: Jim2B Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444916 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 2:00 PM
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Oh and one reason we keep picking Republicans is because the Democrats always promise to NOT be fiscally responsible. So our choices have been a party that sometimes promises responsibility but rarely displays it and the other party which always promises fiscal irresponsibility and always displays fiscal irresponsibility. It's a Hobson's choice but at least one of them offers a chance of getting what we want.

OCD:
Morton's choice

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Author: Jim2B Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444919 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 2:08 PM
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In the real world the 4.3 T represents borrowing from wage earners. They paid higher taxes over the last 30 years so that the richest Americans could pay lower taxes. When that borrowing is repaid it will fund SS through about 2040.

The problem is that this is last generation's wage earners borrowing money from this generation's wage earners.

What's not to like about me getting to borrow money from other people without their consent -AND- I get to set the terms of loan. This is the "wonderful" social program that FDR put in place and liberals crow about.

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Author: AjaxofTelamon Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444920 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 2:13 PM
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Because he and his tax cheating, text messaging crowd think that dumping a big bag of money on the heads of people who lived far above their means, is going to solve the current problems. Instead of letting the economy correct itself naturally, we are going to encourage people to incur more debt and spend more money in some kind of hope that doing so will pull us out of this mess.

Did you expect him instead to give a few more no-bid contracts to Halliburton? Or load $12 Billion cash on pallets and send it to Iraq and then have it disappear into thin air? That will be more responsible you think?


-=Ajax=-

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444921 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 2:15 PM
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OCD:
Morton's choice
________________________

I understand gratuitous bacon posts, but fish sticks? A line's gotta be drawn somewhere!

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444923 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 2:17 PM
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Did you expect him instead to give a few more no-bid contracts to Halliburton? Or load $12 Billion cash on pallets and send it to Iraq and then have it disappear into thin air? _________________________

What's truly hilarious is your faith that he won't.

That's hilarious as in pathetic, as I know you wouldn't figure it out.

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444924 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 2:22 PM
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What DOES make me angry is those who hope our President fails because if this President fails, we all will fail. This isn't some sort of ideological game of "your guy must lose", this is our country's future, my daughter's future, at stake here.

The thing is that "hope" does nothing whatsoever ... or maybe it does ("hope and change" etc) ... nah, hope does nothing useful.

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Author: jakalant Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444926 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 2:23 PM
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Does it concern you that the Military Industrial Complex (the Dept of Defense) can not account for 25% -- that's $2.3 TRILLION dollars -- of OUR tax dollars. The Iraq War was a RACKET to fill the pockets of GOP donors. Wake UP!! http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main32......

This sentence needs to read and reread. That $ was stolen and not just from me and my kids. It was stolen from all of us and all of our kids. It is unbelievable to me that more people aren't outraged about this enormous robbery.

Finally it may be being addressed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/world/middleeast/15iraq.ht...

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Author: Jim2B Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444930 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 2:57 PM
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So now, not only am I still unclear about how this is Obama's fault

The situation Obama inherited mostly wasn't Obama's fault, except where his Senatorial votes egged on the dire situation.

However, Obama is responsible for his own actions and policies. What many Obama supporters fail to realize is that in many cases Obama's are similar or identical to that of Bush.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444931 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 2:57 PM
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Okay, I admit, I've got a cell phone but I don't have a clue how to text message.
You are one of the salt-of-the-earth good guys then, as texting is clearly a sign of liberal decay...
:)

I don't text much - but it seems a fairly neutral aspect of technological change to me.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444932 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 3:01 PM
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Text messaging is just a metaphor for the overindulgent hyperconsumerism that was pervasive over the last decade
No it isn't - any more than the telephone was a sign of the hyperconsumerism of the 1920's, or computers a sign of the hyperconsumerism of the 1980's.


We all collectively bought into this bigger is better lifestyle myth, paid for it with multiple home refinancings
I've never refinanced my house - or taken on any debt ever (even CC balances) aside from a mortgage - yet I text message from time to time. Clearly I am treading down the primrose path to decay, overspending and ruin.

Technology rolls on. These things are just communication tools. The rabid fear of change, and view of technology as a threat is ridiculous.

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Author: JustWhoIAm Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444933 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 3:08 PM
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i find it quite humorous when congress gets blamed for budget over spending. the president signs the budget bill into law.


Has any President ever signed a budget bill that did not come from Congress?

I find it humorous that in your own post you made the above statement, then added the bit about Reagan and the futility of a President trying to do other than what Congress presents.

Keith

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Author: JustWhoIAm Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444934 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 3:10 PM
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The crisis was initiated by the Fed keeping interest rates too low for too long while Democrats forced banks to make risky loans and forced Freddie and Fannie to back risky mortgages, then later blocked several Repub attempts to reign in those risks due to the big donations they got from F&F.
=======
Again, blaming it on the poor people. Why are there so many million dollar homes in foreclosure? No one forced the banks to make those loans to high income people? Malibu and Santa Barbara property values don't fall just because people in Compton start defaulting. A lack of lending standards across the board that caused the current mess, not just on the low-income side of things.


You appear to be projecting here. He states bad Federal policies are the cause and you read it as blaming it on the poor.

Keith

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Author: Jim2B Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444935 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 3:24 PM
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Does it concern you that the Military Industrial Complex (the Dept of Defense) can not account for 25% -- that's $2.3 TRILLION dollars -- of OUR tax dollars. The Iraq War was a RACKET to fill the pockets of GOP donors. Wake UP

Well these numbers are wrong. Defense accounts for <20% now. SS & Medicare account for >40% and are swiftly approaching 50%. The short & long term trends are that these two programs will rapidly consume all of our nation's tax revenues.

Consider that the Constitution provides for the Department of Defense. There are no such provisions for Social Security, Medicare/aid, education, roads, or most of the (current) other 4/5 of our national budget.

The Iraq War was a RACKET to fill the pockets of GOP donors. Wake UP

Could you please explain to me how this statement tracks with the votes of the Democrats in Congress?

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444937 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 3:29 PM
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Could you please explain to me how this statement tracks with the votes of the Democrats in Congress?


Which votes, exactly?

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444939 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 3:36 PM
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I'll stick with the Fed as the explanation. When you see how many problems were created by the Fed throughout its history (like the Great Depression), then it isn't a stretch.
------------------------------------------------------------------
You know what else i think contributed? After the stock market bubble burst alot of people sold around the bottom and they put their money into the investment which only goes up, real estate. I remember my cousin the real estate agent sold all his stock around that time and bought property with it. I also talked to the builder that lives across the street and i asked him who owned some of these new homes which were for sale in my area, he said a couple builders were traders that worked at the board of trade, they formed a couple groups and hired contractors to build the homes for them as speculation, they got burned. I also found out a girl i went to high school with bought a house down the street from me and her and her husband were going to renovate it and rent it out, as far as i know i don't think they did anything to it. Alot of people thought real estate would only go up and they took chances with financing because they assumed the future would be like the immediate past. So, in conclusion, i blame Bush.

2828

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444944 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 3:59 PM
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"Did you expect him instead to give a few more no-bid contracts to Halliburton? Or load $12 Billion cash on pallets and send it to Iraq and then have it disappear into thin air? That will be more responsible you think?"

No - just let the markets correct themselves. We don't need to spend $800B to do that.

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Author: JJMSpartan Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444946 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 4:01 PM
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I am also very angry.

I'm mad as heck at Bush for spending more money on a medicare drug program and bringing us closer to socialized medicine.

I'm mad at the Republicans for recklessly spending money on overblown budgets while they had control of both houses of congress for the first 6 years of the Bush Presidency.

I'm mad at Chris Dodd and Barney Frank for blocking any attempts at reforming the CRA, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and demanding that banks make loans to people who couldn't afford to pay them back that was the start of this mess.

I'm mad at the Democrats for recklessly spending money on overblown budgets while they have had control of both houses of congress for the last 2 years.

I'm mad that the idiots in congress were so insistent on passing a $700 billion bailout of the banks that they forgot to put any kind of oversight into the bill to make sure the money was spent the way it was intended to be spent.

I'm mad that the same idiots in congress are so anti-Detroit that they made a huge deal of giving automakers a $25 Billion loan which saved more American jobs than the new stimulus bill will ever save.

I'm mad that Bush had no clue how to veto any legislation on spending that was put in front of him.

I'm mad that congress feels they have to bail out the economy when there are signs that it is already starting to comeback without any stimulation.

I'm mad that Obama is already breaking his promises of transparency by allowing a record spending bill to be passed with so much pork in it without any type of time to review it by the public.

I'm mad that when people dissented against Bush it was called patriotism, but when they dissent against Obama it's called dangerous.

Mostly, I'm mad that congress can't ever spend less than they bring in, without raising taxes to allow them to spend more.


This conservative left the Republican party when they abandoned the principles of Reagan a long time ago. And a word to the Libs out there - Tax revenues under Reagan increased over 50% from 1981 to 1989 after reducing taxes. It's a fact - go look it up at the CBO.

Sparty

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444949 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 4:06 PM
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"Did you expect him instead to give a few more no-bid contracts to Halliburton? Or load $12 Billion cash on pallets and send it to Iraq and then have it disappear into thin air? That will be more responsible you think?"

No - just let the markets correct themselves. We don't need to spend $800B to do that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
You don't want to let a good crisis go to waste.

Rahm Emanuel

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Author: MurrayS Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444953 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 4:21 PM
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This conservative left the Republican party when they abandoned the principles of Reagan a long time ago. And a word to the Libs out there - Tax revenues under Reagan increased over 50% from 1981 to 1989 after reducing taxes. It's a fact - go look it up at the CBO.

Perhaps this is due to the numerous tax INCREASES that Regan signed "after reducing taxes": http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0301.green.ht...

...
One year after his massive tax cut, Reagan agreed to a tax increase to reduce the deficit that restored fully one-third of the previous year's reduction.
...
Faced with looming deficits, Reagan raised taxes again in 1983 with a gasoline tax and once more in 1984, this time by $50 billion over three years, mainly through closing tax loopholes for business.
...
The historic Tax Reform Act of 1986, though it achieved the supply side goal of lowering individual income tax rates, was a startlingly progressive reform. The plan imposed the largest corporate tax increase in history--an act utterly unimaginable for any conservative to support today.


-murray

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Author: fleg9bo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444954 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 4:36 PM
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Did you expect him instead to give a few more no-bid contracts to Halliburton?

Bill Clinton gave a no-bid contract to Halliburton while Bush was still perspiring in TX, during the unpleasantness in the former Yugoslavia. In fact, it was Bubba's use of Halliburton that got them some of the wartime experience that made them one of the few qualified companies to do some of the Iraq work.

--fleg

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444956 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 5:02 PM
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Bill Clinton gave a no-bid contract to Halliburton while Bush was still perspiring in TX, during the unpleasantness in the former Yugoslavia. In fact, it was Bubba's use of Halliburton that got them some of the wartime experience that made them one of the few qualified companies to do some of the Iraq work.

--fleg
----------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but illegal war, Chimpy McFlightsuit, Abu Ghraib, greeted as liberators, Darth Cheney, mission accomplished, warmonger, torture, secular regime, unilateral cowboy.

2828

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444960 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 5:21 PM
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11 out of the top 25 rec'd posts. I think you liberals have given new meaning to mindless ideologs.
"Look i must not be THAT deluded because they believe it too!"
Like shooting fish in a barrel.

2828


Wow, lookie at all those recs. Our lefty guests must really like our board.

Mike

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Author: JoelCairo Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444965 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 5:32 PM
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Perhaps some day, you'll grow up and realize both parties got us to where we are today,

I am grown up to know that you and your ilk blame less than four weeks in office and discount not just eight years, but 20 of the last 28.

You act really grown up when you ignore, what was it, 12 of the last 14 years of Republican house ownership?

You are a piece of work, my friend. Dishonest arguments longer than the longest day.

If I saw you take the OP to task, maybe you would demonstrate a shred of integrity or probity, but no such luck. Instead, you name call and continue your denial of responsibility for the policies and people you loudly and rudely supported.

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Author: MrCheeryO Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444968 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 5:36 PM
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...numerous tax INCREASES that Regan signed "after reducing taxes":...

Don't forget the gargantuan payroll tax increases that Reagan signed. Bush spent well over 1 trillion dollars of that gigantic tax increase the last eight years despite solemnly swearing on a stack of Bibles made in China that even after his failed tax cuts every penny of that tax would "be used for securing Social Security and Social Security alone". Bush---liar liar pants on fire.

Bush to Address Social Security in Feb. 27 Budget Speech

.....In his speech, Bush will vow to reserve about $1 trillion of the on-budget surplus over 10 years for privatized Social Security accounts, with the Social Security surplus itself being dedicated to debt reduction.....

.....The Social Security system will run a surplus of almost $2.5 trillion in the ten years from 2002-2011. Hence, personal accounts investing a larger percentage of wages are possible and would do more to ensure retirement security for the baby boom generation and beyond.
http://www.socialsecurity.org/daily/02-26-01.html

Nope, all those surpluses vanished with the tax cuts and optional wars so no private retirment accounts. No on budget surplus, all the SS surpluses blown on no-bid contracts to Halliburton so no SS reform.

I sense a lot of anger and bitterness at RECF, perhaps some clinging to guns and religion?

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444975 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 5:55 PM
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You are one of the salt-of-the-earth good guys then, as texting is clearly a sign of liberal decay...
:)

I don't text much - but it seems a fairly neutral aspect of technological change to me. - gingko



The few times I've gotten a text message it freaked me out. I was frantically pushing buttons trying to figure out what to do. My problem is that when I read I have to wear reading glasses because I've become far-sighted in my old age. I can't half see the writing on my cell phone as it is. I've also got huge hands so when I'm messing with the cell phone I'm fumbling around trying to figure out which buttons I'm supposed to push to make the writing quit scrolling across the screen. All I really need my phone to do is call people, recieve calls, and record calls when I don't answer. It can do a whole lot more than that but mostly what it does is confuse me.

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444979 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 6:15 PM
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No - just let the markets correct themselves. We don't need to spend $800B to do that. - InconclusiveFool


Even if there were no interference from the Feds and govermental interference with the market whatsoever and the market was allowed to work naturally the stock market would never just rise gently forever with small incremental increases.

The volatility of the stock market happens for a reason. The market rises and falls with proportionate volatility because it causes us to experience separation from our money.

And surely by now ya'll know why we experience separation?

Artie

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Author: AjaxofTelamon Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444981 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 6:22 PM
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No - just let the markets correct themselves. We don't need to spend $800B to do that.

The Bush administration did let the markets on their own and that caused our financial system to collapse.

And this happened before. Back in 1929 when the stock market crashed the Republicans did nothing - hoping for the markets to "correct themselves."

So your record on this premise, that the markets will correct themselves, is not good. Do you want us to go through another 1930s depression?


-=Ajax=-

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444984 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 6:38 PM
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I'm mad at Chris Dodd and Barney Frank for blocking any attempts at reforming the CRA, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and demanding that banks make loans to people who couldn't afford to pay them back that was the start of this mess.


THe latter part of that statement is just not true.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444985 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 6:39 PM
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This conservative left the Republican party when they abandoned the principles of Reagan a long time ago. And a word to the Libs out there - Tax revenues under Reagan increased over 50% from 1981 to 1989 after reducing taxes. It's a fact - go look it up at the CBO.


Is that before or after inflation? Does that include the Social Security tax hikes? Furthermore - 1981 was the depth of a very harsh recession. OF COURSE revenues are going to look a lot better on the upswing of the cycle.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444990 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 6:50 PM
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I'm angry because we did everything right. We got good educations, worked hard, had good jobs, lived below our means, saved money for our retirement, never asked for anything from anybody and we're getting screwed. It's just wrong.....


One thing you definitely did wrong is that you invested in the stock market while it was at historic record valuations. That never ends well, as I have pointed out many times.
The lack of returns you got over the last decade are the expected outcome.

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=19712096&sort=use...

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444993 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 6:57 PM
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One thing you definitely did wrong is that you invested in the stock market while it was at historic record valuations. That never ends well, as I have pointed out many times.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Really? I hadn't noticed ;0D.

2828

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Author: PKnudsen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444994 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 6:57 PM
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So now, not only am I still unclear about how this is Obama's fault

It isn't of course. But they know blaming the dufus THEY put in office will just make them look dumb(er).

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 444996 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 7:00 PM
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It isn't of course. But they know blaming the dufus THEY put in office will just make them look dumb(er).
--------------------------------------------------------------
OK, we're dumb, we're mindless ideologues, we're not smart, we're a religion, now can you guys take your approximately 120 identical messages back to the PA board where there is true diversity. You guys are like a psychology experiment, no wonder i never used my degree.

2828

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445006 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 7:11 PM
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"Do you want us to go through another 1930s depression?"

I look at this as a necessary correction. Maybe people will realize that a 5,000 square foot mcmansion, and the debt associated with it, isn't all that important.

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445007 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 7:11 PM
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One thing you definitely did wrong is that you invested in the stock market while it was at historic record valuations. That never ends well, as I have pointed out many times.
The lack of returns you got over the last decade are the expected outcome.

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=19712096&sort=use......

advo


She should have been reading Hussman eh? Your linked post was right when the market started its four year upswing after the 2000-2002 down market. Looking back, the market was still overvalued after 2002. Perhaps our friend hocus was right! <g>

Mike

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445011 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 7:20 PM
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I look at this as a necessary correction. Maybe people will realize that a 5,000 square foot mcmansion, and the debt associated with it, isn't all that important.

InconclusiveFool


IMO, housing is an expense to be minimized if you want to FIRE. When I was younger, I always dreamed of owning a nice home in the upper middle class community located next to the lower middle class/working class community where I reside. Now I look at those expensive houses as money pits. Even if the mortgage is paid off, the fools that own these houses are stuck paying very high property taxes (in my area, ~ 3 to 3.5% of the assessed value annually). Any work that they need to contract out costs them more because contractors figure they can charge more to these "wealthy" homeowners.

Median house price should be no more than 3x median income.
A house is not an investment, unless you want to own rental property and have what it takes to be a landlord.
A house is not an ATM.

Mike

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Author: AjaxofTelamon Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445022 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 7:50 PM
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I look at this as a necessary correction. Maybe people will realize that a 5,000 square foot mcmansion, and the debt associated with it, isn't all that important.

Where were you the last eight years?

Or are you now pretending to a Libertarian? As if that will give your argument legitimacy.


-=Ajax=-

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Author: GringoFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445030 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 8:12 PM
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Perhaps our friend hocus was right! <g>

Mike


Yeah, right, just like a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Speaking of stopped clocks, I really like the words to Jimmy Buffett's song "Breathe in, breathe out, move on"

I bought a cheap watch from the crazy man
Floating down Canal
It doesnt use numbers or moving hands
It always just says "now"

Now you may be thinking that I was had
But this watch is never wrong
And if I had trouble the warranty said:
Breathe in, breathe out, move on


G.F.

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Author: YellowCakie Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445031 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 8:23 PM
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Wow, lookie at all those recs. Our lefty guests must really like our board.

Mike


++++++++++++++++


It's desperation time for the liberals. It's finally starting to penetrate that the country is in serious trouble because of distinctly liberal ideologies, despite the fact that frequently in the recent past we've had nominal Republicans participating in their promulgation. And it's finally starting to penetrate that they aren't merely back-seat drivers, they've got the steering wheel now, and they don't know how to parallel park or merge onto the freeway.

The mutual reinforcement of the PA echo chamber is not enough anymore. The conservatives have basically been singing the same tune, all along. A change in political power doesn't change the appropriateness of that tune.

There's a cognitive disconnect for the liberals. They see that liberal ideology, e.g. "no responsibility, no worries," creation of huge amounts of moral hazard, has now finally resulted in catastrophic consequences. For some the light bulb will never go off. For others, there is hope. They are starting to question their own world view and do not realize that it is happening.

They know that the one of the major underlying causes of our problem is a "lack of responsibility." The cure for that is imposing "responsibility" on those who lack it. But they also realize this cannot be limited, as their messiah cynically attempts to do, to the "Wall St. fat cats." Inevitably, if one now realizes that "responsibility" must be imposed, if not voluntarily accepted, where does that leave the balance of the modern liberal agenda/ideology? Nowhere. Out in the cold.

It is the conservatives among us who have been crying out in the wilderness at the lack of personal responsibility in our society, and the negative effects of the liberal agenda in respect to increasing moral hazard.

And so the intelligent and thoughtful among the liberals realize that their entire ideology has dead-ended. And that is surely a very frightening place for them to be.

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Author: JoeChristmas Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445032 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 8:23 PM
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Speck: So now, not only am I still unclear about how this is Obama's fault, I'm equally unclear, and quite curious, about the role of text messaging in this whole affair.

Perhaps the new Republican meme is that African Americans were texting each other about the great loans Acorn was arranging, with the help of Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, then running out and buying huge homes to stick it to Whitey. The big banks tried to stop them, but those poor blacks were just too well organized, thanks to to all of those SMS's.

It's actually the rich, white bankers that are the victims here. Which is why it's just so sick they are being asked to reduce their bonuses as part of the bailout.

I heard it on Limbaugh, so it must be true.

--JC

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445034 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 8:30 PM
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but those poor blacks were just too well organized
--------------------------------------------
Had to bring race into it, you lose.

2828

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Author: JoelCairo Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445038 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 8:42 PM
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Education is a disaster thanks to the Unions.

Not in my state. The men responsible for the decline of education in California are Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann.

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445042 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 8:50 PM
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Perhaps you can save some of your anger for the Republicans who brought us to this point and who, now not in power, for the most part refused to even be civil to our President, much less grant him any kind of space to do what the people have mandated that he do.

Perhaps you can remember this is a democracy, and this bill is what we, the people, voted for. And we didn't need a split Supreme Court to seal the victory for us, as you did eight years ago. A victory that you called a mandate.

JoelCairo


You seem to have a selective memory. Dems were extremely uncivil to President Bush and you have the gall to whine that Republicans are being uncivil to the current president. Compare the Clinton to Bush transition and the Bush to Obama transition. Didn't hear any reports about the "O" keys being taken from the White House computer keyboards did we?

By the way America is (or was) a representative republic. Democracy is mob rule.

Mike

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445043 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 9:00 PM
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Do you believe that the practical SS liability is LESS THAN the 4.3 T of Intragovernmental Debt?

Peter


MC No. It is *far* more massive.

So the 4.3 Trillion dollars (which you want me to ignore) actually understates the debt.


Don't you ever do your own homework?

The 1998 and 2001 surpluses would turn to deficits if they weren't allowed to include SS and Medicare. There would still be 1999 and 2000 surpluses. They would just be much smaller.

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=27442302

Do you count the accrued interest due to the trust funds during the budget year as an expense?

http://home.att.net/~rdavis2/def09.html
http://home.att.net/~rdavis2/debt09.html

If there has been a real surplus, the debt would have gone down. It didn't.

Peter

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Author: ascenzm Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445045 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 9:04 PM
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I've never refinanced my house - or taken on any debt ever (even CC balances) aside from a mortgage - yet I text message from time to time. Clearly I am treading down the primrose path to decay, overspending and ruin.

Gingko100


No wonder the CA economy is in shambles. You gotta start spending!

Mike

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445047 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 9:15 PM
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Do you believe that the practical SS liability is LESS THAN the 4.3 T of Intragovernmental Debt?

Peter

MC No. It is *far* more massive.

So the 4.3 Trillion dollars (which you want me to ignore) actually understates the debt.


No, it understates the liability, not the debt.

If there has been a real surplus, the debt would have gone down. It didn't.

Peter


No, the debt *did* go down. That was my point.

I'm done here. You are ridiculous.

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 445051 of 757464
Subject: Re: I am very angry Date: 2/15/2009 9:24 PM
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