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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 445694  
Subject: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 9:54 AM
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At present we have pretty good intelligence on the location of ISIS's boots. They also have stolen a lot of our weapons. Only losers abandon their weapons to the enemy. I want the weapons back

I think we should hit ISIS simultaneously in Iraq and Syria. I don't think we should be fastidious about taking prisoners. I think a political solution with these thugs is a pipe dream.

Time to stop dithering................
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Author: NailThatJello Big gold star, 5000 posts Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440411 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 10:14 AM
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I want the weapons back. I think we should hit ISIS... I don't think we should be fastidious about taking prisoners.

If most of the weapons are small arms, the only way to take them back would be to put American boots on the ground. To pry them out of ISIS' cold, dead hands.

ISIS would like nothing more than to see the US come and try to do that.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440412 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 10:15 AM
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They do start 'em young.

“I swear to Allah we will divide America in two,” one child, who looked no older than 12, declared, “And we’ll destroy the enemies of the religion all of them, all who fight the Islamic State.”

IS spokesman Abu Mosa:

“We will humiliate [the Americans] everywhere, God willing, and we will raise the flag of Allah in the White House,”

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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440413 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 10:22 AM
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If most of the weapons are small arms, the only way to take them back would be to put American boots on the ground.

That's why I disagree with Obama. I want boots on the ground.

ISIS would like nothing more than to see the US come and try to do that.

No they wouldn't.

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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440414 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 10:23 AM
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“We will humiliate [the Americans] everywhere

Until we put a stop to them they will continue to do just that. I hate war. But humans are imperfect and sometimes it is the only way.

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Author: NailThatJello Big gold star, 5000 posts Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440416 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 10:52 AM
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ISIS would like nothing more than to see the US come and try to do that.

No they wouldn't.


Sure they would. They've said so in no uncertain terms. Remember that losing in battle is winning, in their minds if they gain martyrdom while wounding and humiliating the Great Satan in the process.

Sucking us into their sand dunes would be their dream come true scenario.

Obama, stick with air power.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440417 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 11:03 AM
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Maybe we could just nuke everyone in the rest of the world and then enslave all people of color here - or just use them for target practice for our militant police forces - and make sure the rest of us live in abject poverty casting votes that are never counted in some pretense that we are a democracy.

How's that?

AM

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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440418 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 11:05 AM
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Sure they would. They've said so in no uncertain terms. Remember that losing in battle is winning, in their minds if they gain martyrdom while wounding and humiliating the Great Satan in the process.

They dont want to fight us in that terrain.

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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440420 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 11:08 AM
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Maybe we could just nuke everyone in the rest of the world and then enslave all people of color here - or just use them for target practice for our militant police forces - and make sure the rest of us live in abject poverty casting votes that are never counted in some pretense that we are a democracy.

How's that


Actually it is an argument beneath you.

What do you think ISIS is doing to everyone that doesn't agree with their perverted form of religion?

ISIS is a bunch of religio/fascist thugs. If we don't annihilate them now they will only gain in strength.

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 11:15 AM
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ISIS is a bunch of religio/fascist thugs. If we don't annihilate them now they will only gain in strength.

------------


And yet we look the other way when Africans are killing, torturing, raping other Africans. What happened to "if don't annihilate them now they will only gain in strength?" wrt Africa?

Since when is it the duty of the United States to police the world? We pour billions of dollars into that wasteland while people here go wanting, while our infrastructure rots - and when it's over we have gained not a damned thing except an empty bank account and soldiers who come home sans arms and legs and, in many instances their sanity. That's not counting the ones who don't come home at all except in a box.

We piddle sticky fingers in Israel. In Iraq. We spy on our "friends". There's nothing we really don't do.

So I don't see how nuking them all is out of line for what we have become. Maybe we don't want to look into that mirror. But there is no painting in our attic to absorb our ugliness while we parade around in our white hats. Our clothes are not invisible.

AM

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440425 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 11:28 AM
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That's why I disagree with Obama. I want boots on the ground.

I don't. I would be satisfied with the utter destruction of all the equipment (and those carrying it). Like we did at the "Highway of Death".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Death

Cluster bombs, incendiaries, whatever it takes. I do agree about the simultaneous strike, though. We need to nip this in the bud before it becomes a major problem and we are compelled to invade again (see Afghanistan). Hit them hard with no warning.

I might see using a few boots to take back the major hydroelectric dam they seized last week. Maybe.

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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440426 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 11:31 AM
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While the African situation is regrettable, none of the African leaders have threatened to put their flag on the White House.

Isolationist sentiment was the reason we didn't try to stop Hitler untl the end of 1941. We are not the world policeman, but if we're not, who is.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440428 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 11:42 AM
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While the African situation is regrettable, none of the African leaders have threatened to put their flag on the White House.

I agree. That is the key difference. They want to attack us, and will do so at any opportunity. They have said so. The same was not true of the Hutus and Tutsis (as horrendous as that situation was).

When a group wants to establish a state from which they can launch attacks against us? Sorry...wipe 'em out. Nuke 'em if necessary. Never again allow a 9/11/01 (or a Pearl Harbor, etc).

I absolutely don't think we are the policemen of the world, nor should we be. But we have a valid interest here. That those folks are killing everyone who refuses to convert to their brand of Islam is just a bonus reason to wipe them out.

And I don't care what color they are. A threat is a threat. If it were the Swedes making the threat my response would be the same.


(Note: I have nothing against the Swedes, and actually envy their society in many ways.)

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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440438 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 12:18 PM
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A lot of the slaughter in Africa is being done in the name of Allah and some in the name of Christ.

It is interconnected.

While the invasion of Iraq was one of the worst decisions by any President in history we cannot undue it by ignoring the responsibility we created.

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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440439 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 12:23 PM
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There's also another problem of going into Iraq, again. If we can use force to suit or needs why can't Russia?

But sometimes you just have to take that risk, knowing war begets more war.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440440 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 12:36 PM
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There's also another problem of going into Iraq, again. If we can use force to suit or needs why can't Russia?

But sometimes you just have to take that risk, knowing war begets more war.


At some point it becomes the responsibility of the Iraqis. We left them a rebuilt government and military, and they are not holding it together. As near as I can tell we did not do it in the same way we did Ngo Dinh Diem (which was a recipe for failure from day-one). If they can't keep it together then that's on them. If an outsider (like Russia) were meddling, then we arguably have a responsibility. But that does not appear to be the case.

The difference between Iraq and Russia/Ukraine is that ISIS has stated they want to destroy us (and we have no reason to doubt them). Ukraine isn't interested in destroying Russia, only governing themselves in peace. Not really comparable situations.

But, yes, violence often leads to more violence. Sometimes you just have to roll the dice and hope you can end it.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440441 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 12:37 PM
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And yet we look the other way when Africans are killing, torturing, raping other Africans. What happened to "if don't annihilate them now they will only gain in strength?" wrt Africa?

Our strategic interests in the middle east are greater than in Africa.


We piddle sticky fingers in Israel.

Israel is a strong western ally and a bulkhead for eastern Europe. It's a western nation in a tight spot.

We spy on our "friends".

Everybody spies on everybody.

I know this will sound like Vietnam domino theory paranoia, but the IS would like a single caliphate covering, at least, eastern Europe/Asia/Africa. IS seems sufficiently ruthless enough to try.

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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440444 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 12:59 PM
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At some point it becomes the responsibility of the Iraqis

There are no Iraqis in the sense we use that word to denote the nationals within a nation. You have endles clans, some of whom bind together in larger religio.ethnic groups, and a lot of thugs who have no real allegiance to anyone other than themselves. The idea we could forge an Iraqi state was the blathering of the neocons.

What I'm saying about the Ukraine is that Russia can rationalize their agression by pointing to American agression elsewhere. It wwas the moral paradox of the Cold War. How for example can you criticize the KGB when you look at what the CIA was doing in those days. Righties just said Western civilization was morally superior and there was no moral equivalence. This is, afterall, the shining city on the hill.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440447 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 1:17 PM
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There are no Iraqis in the sense we use that word to denote the nationals within a nation.

OK. That is true. If my memory serves, "Iraq" was created by the British. They drew the lines to merge three (or more??) incompatible groups under one banner, creating a region that could only be managed by a superpower (which Britain was at the time). Arguably the nation should probably be split into three pieces (at least) allowing each region to align better with its indigenous group(s). If they could ever get past their religious differences they might have a chance, but as it stands the area will continue to be "tense".

What I'm saying about the Ukraine is that Russia can rationalize their agression by pointing to American agression elsewhere.

Sure. I think all we can say is it's about motives. If you shoot Hawkwin, that's murder and you go to jail. If he just kicked your door down and stormed into your home, it's self-defense and you get to stay out of jail. Same action on your part, same result (dead Hawkwin), but different perception and outcome.

(Not picking on Hawkwin...just the first name to come to mind.)

It's not about morally superior...it's about "they threatened us". If Russia could legitimately say that then I would have trouble criticizing them. But they can't (they did an annexation similar to the Sudetenland in 1938, and have since fostered conflict much as we tried -and failed- to do with the Bay of Pigs).

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Author: kenora Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440450 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 2:54 PM
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I agree. You can't negotiated with a vicious group who have their god directing them.

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 4:32 PM
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ISIS is a bunch of religio/fascist thugs. If we don't annihilate them now they will only gain in strength.

Either we stay in Iraq forever, or we accept it's going to dive into madness no matter when we leave - whether that's this year, 10 years from now, or 25 years from now.

Americans have short term memory. We send our young men to die in a pointless war in Southeast Asia, and 20 years later go on vacations to that country.

Middle easterners will fight with their nextdoor neighbor for generations.

As long as the world is dependent on oil, you will never annihilate them, because they will have money - and that's the only thing they want of the west.

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 8:34 PM
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If my memory serves, "Iraq" was created by the British. They drew the lines to merge three (or more??) incompatible groups under one banner, creating a region that could only be managed by a superpower (which Britain was at the time). Arguably the nation should probably be split into three pieces (at least) allowing each region to align better with its indigenous group(s). If they could ever get past their religious differences they might have a chance, but as it stands the area will continue to be "tense".

I have come to the conclusion that the sooner we start this process, the better for all concerned. Let's begin with Kurdistan.

CNC

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/13/2014 8:36 PM
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I have come to the conclusion that the sooner we start this process, the better for all concerned. Let's begin with Kurdistan.

CNC




I think we should begin right here at home.
This country should be split up into several separate countries.
Especially since we are so full of incompatible groups who hate each other.

AM

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Author: NailThatJello Big gold star, 5000 posts Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440466 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/14/2014 12:25 AM
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This country should be split up into several separate countries. Especially since we are so full of incompatible groups who hate each other.

How many do you want to see? I think just two would do. Blue, Red.

Use the natural landscape features to keep Red from polluting Blue. Red can wallow in its pollution of the Mississippi & Missouri River basins. Blue gets the coasts and Great Lakes regions.

For mis-located malcontents: we will exchange prisoners with each other (eg Bakersfield rednecks exchanged for Austin libs)

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/14/2014 12:49 PM
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This country should be split up into several separate countries.
Especially since we are so full of incompatible groups who hate each other.


I agree. I think we should have a plebicite by state to determine who wants to stay in the union. I'm sick of these melee mouthed righties talking about secession all the time. Put up or shut up. I won't miss the Red states.

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/14/2014 8:57 PM
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I agree. I think we should have a plebicite by state to determine who wants to stay in the union. I'm sick of these melee mouthed righties talking about secession all the time. Put up or shut up. I won't miss the Red states.

We'd probably end up as 3 countries. The two coasts could be one, except for geography. Hard to govern with a whole wide country in between.

So you'd have New England down to, say, Virginia. Florida could stay with, except (again) for geography. They'd be isolated on every side by Bright RED, so they'd probably go South. Now you have a very large swatch of Palin country in the middle, and then the West Coast.

I dunno; if you could just get Texas, Alabama, and Mississippi to leave that would be enough for me. It would get the rednecks out, balance things in favor of people who want to be in the country, and we could watch the New Dixie sink slowly in the sunset. (Texas would do OK until the oil runs out; then there would be little reason to deal with them.)

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/15/2014 2:20 AM
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If my memory serves, "Iraq" was created by the British. They drew the lines to merge three (or more??) incompatible groups under one banner, creating a region that could only be managed by a superpower (which Britain was at the time). Arguably the nation should probably be split into three pieces (at least) allowing each region to align better with its indigenous group(s). If they could ever get past their religious differences they might have a chance, but as it stands the area will continue to be "tense".

I have come to the conclusion that the sooner we start this process, the better for all concerned. Let's begin with Kurdistan.

CNC


Actually, to set up an independent Kurdistan would greatly alarm the Turks. They have a substantial Kurdish population, especially along the border with Kurdish Iraq. Those Kurds would like to join Kurdish Iraq and make a Kurdish nation - both Iraq Kurds and Turkish Kurds - taking a big slice out of Turkey. If we are seen abetting an independent Kurdistan, we risk alienating the only Muslim ally we have - Turkey.

CNC

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Author: NailThatJello Big gold star, 5000 posts Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440506 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/15/2014 2:45 AM
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We'd probably end up as 3 countries. The two coasts could be one, except for geography. Hard to govern with a whole wide country in between.

At the north end, BlueWorld would naturally extend westwards to as far as Minnesota (along with Michigan, WI, Pennsylvania and all that lot). West of that there are just a few podunk Cheney states. We'd claim those to solve the problem you mention. We'd definitely want Montana and we'd take Wyoming whether we want it or not. The Dakotas, well yes OK we'll take them.

It would hurt but we'd give the Reds Colorado up to the great Divide so they have a place to stick their Idaho anti-gov't gun nut survivalists once we shoo them out of Idaho. Give them Iowa and southern Indiana as compensation, too. Won't miss those much. They can have Missouri and Arkansas, good places to sit on the porch and be obese in. Or go duck hunting. Or build a few more churches, there are still about 1% of the street corners there that don't have one yet.

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/15/2014 11:03 AM
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I dunno; if you could just get Texas, Alabama, and Mississippi to leave that would be enough for me.

What about Louisiana? They elected a grand wizard (or whatever the stupid title is) of the KKK as their governor a while back. Their biggest city is one storm away from being a swamp again. They too are bright red.

Arkansas is a tougher call (they did produce Clinton - not that I was a great fan of his, but they did). I'm on the fence about that one.

And does Georgia still have the problems that splashed all across the news in my distant youth (Forsyth County)? If so, cut them loose too.

There's a lot of Red in the fly-over part of the country, but we should keep them anyway.

Though any state that wants to join the New Confederacy should be allowed to do so. Then we build this really big wall....

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/15/2014 11:20 AM
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If we are seen abetting an independent Kurdistan, we risk alienating the only Muslim ally we have - Turkey.

That is true. On the other hand they probably wouldn't be wild about the idea of having ISIS right on their border either.

Apparently the Iraqis now have a new PM. I don't think it will matter, though. ISIS is doing the work of Allah, the Shiites and Sunnis still don't like each other, and everyone hates the Kurds.

Even more ungovernable than present-day USA.


Note: I don't understand the racism against the Kurds. OK, I don't really get racism at all. But I used to know an Iraqi (he actually called himself some regional term I forgot), and he once told me "if you give a Kurd your little finger he'll take your arm". Why that attitude I have no idea.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440527 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/15/2014 3:21 PM
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I dunno; if you could just get Texas, Alabama, and Mississippi to leave that would be enough for me. It would get the rednecks out,

Either you have an extremely narrow definition of a redneck or you have not lived (or even really visited) much if not most rural America.

So-called rednecks live in most if not all states in the union and likely reside in large numbers in places like Michigan (this I can personally confirm), PA, OH, and even in places like ME and VT.

http://austinist.com/2013/05/13/do_you_live_in_one_of_the_to...

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/15/2014 6:42 PM
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This country should be split up into several separate countries. Especially since we are so full of incompatible groups who hate each other.

I believe we tried that once; over a half-million people died.

DB2

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Author: NailThatJello Big gold star, 5000 posts Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440545 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 1:58 AM
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any state that wants to join the New Confederacy should be allowed to do so. Then we build this really big wall....

The walls are already in place. We just have to start using them. They're called the Rockies, and the Appalachians.

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440557 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 2:32 PM
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The walls are already in place. We just have to start using them. They're called the Rockies, and the Appalachians.

Unfortunately, the East Coast then includes South Carolina, North Carolina, half of Alabama and a quarter of Georgia and Mississippi. You'd also lose most of New York and Pennsylvania. I don't think that's gonna fly.

Likewise, the West Coast would include all of Utah and Idaho, Nevada and Arizona, about half of Wyoming and only about half of Colorado.

But you're right, it would be pretty easy to police those borders; except for a few state highways and interstates, how many people are going to just walk across?

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Author: NailThatJello Big gold star, 5000 posts Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440559 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 3:13 PM
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Unfortunately, [east of the Appalachians] then includes South Carolina, North Carolina, half of Alabama and a quarter of Georgia and Mississippi. You'd also lose most of New York and Pennsylvania. I don't think that's gonna fly. Likewise, the West Coast would include all of Utah and Idaho, Nevada and Arizona, about half of Wyoming and only about half of Colorado.

It's true, there would need to be some adjustments to optimize the border as well as some prisoner swaps. And somehow we'd have to stop the Reds from blowing off the tops of Appalachian mountains that form the National Wall. Once they lose their subsidies and suffer awhile under the Party of StupidGreed, Reds will be sneaking over the flattops to beg for morsels from us. We won't accept Red immigrants, we want people with brains, so we'll track them with drones and zap 'em with wind-powered electric fence lines and robotic tasers.

Beware, though. While they will have developed no technology because of having stopped all public research investment, they will still have boatloads of guns. Luckily for us, though the Reds will mostly be shooting themselves and their kinfolk, often while duck or grouse hunting.

On the Western Great Fence, there is a special problem. We definitely want Utah - fabulous scenery and Rockies - but we'll have to ship out the Mormon Nation. There'll be plenty of room for them on the eastern side, but the trouble is, even the Reds won't want them. We'll hire some Israeli and Palestinian consultants to work on this problem, they've got lots of experience in displacing people into nowhere.

On the North, the terrain isn't much help. There are some gentle hills that separate the Mississippi River Basin from the Great Lakes, but any southern trespasser can get across them. Maybe we can get our bulldozers out and shovel up a barrier of Rust Belt detritus - all that iron ore slag, all that Koch Bros coal tar waste, and all the abandoned home waste from Detroit, heap it into one mighty rough stinking carcinogenic wall. The Reds might still try to climb over it, but they'd get cancer in do doing, and since they'd refuse Affordable Care insurance, they'd soon just die by the roadsides. I think Romney called that self-deportation.

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Author: LordFoolman Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440560 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 4:20 PM
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And you know what would happen if you split the country along red/blue states?

In one or two generations, the red states with its low tax, low regulation philosophy will economically skyrocket and gain tremendously in wealth. Lives and standards of living improve dramatically. And the blue states, always burdening, and dare I say, attacking business and wealthy people and investors, will lose wealth, wither in economic vitality, and start to border on 3rd-world status.

You guys know this. Red states with a free-economy philosophy like Texas have been rising....vast migration of people from the West Coast and Northeast and Great Lake states have moved there in droves for economic opportunity and lower cost of living.

Let it sink in. Economic freedom is what does good for people. Whether it's the United States vs rest of the world's socialism in the 20th socialism, or free Texas vs bi-coastal anti-business attitude in the last 10-15 years....the evidence is clear. Be honest with yourself.

To be free unleashes the best in all of us long term.

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440561 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 4:38 PM
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You guys know this.

Well, at least you're consistently deluded.

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 4:44 PM
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Well, at least you're consistently deluded.


Right....and you have proof that burdening an economy causes it to be more vibrant??

Maybe, I can add bricks to your back and see if you can run faster??

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440563 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 4:51 PM
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In one or two generations, the red states with its low tax, low regulation philosophy will economically skyrocket and gain tremendously in wealth. Lives and standards of living improve dramatically. And the blue states, always burdening, and dare I say, attacking business and wealthy people and investors, will lose wealth, wither in economic vitality, and start to border on 3rd-world status.




That's funny. It would actually be just the reverse. Women, in the red states, would have lives bordering on "The Handmaid's Tale". With taxes at a minimum, nothing would be spent on schools which would crumble to dust as the ignorant rednecks watched. Businesses would all but enslave workers who would have no alternatives readily available to them. A police state would be inevitable.

In blue states, money would be spent on education. Taxes would be raised to pay for infrastructure needed to see that the wheels of commerce were well-oiled. People would have equal rights and women would be in control of their own bodies. Prisons would be maintained - not as for-profit businesses but by the state.

Lots of differences.
I would choose to live in a Blue Country. Any day. If only we had the choice.

AM

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Author: LordFoolman Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440564 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 5:01 PM
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Lots of differences.
I would choose to live in a Blue Country. Any day. If only we had the choice.

AM



Right.....and that's why red states are kicking the hec out of blue states currently in economics. That IS the evidence. That's what we are dealing with. Jobs are growing.....people are becoming richer....people CAN AFFORD HOMES. Try buying a modest home in California....outside of crime ridden areas...it's impossible unless you got close to $500,000- $1 million!!

Live in your fantasy land AngelMay.

Now, I'm an atheist. So in full disclosure, I would say I would probably fear the religious faction a bit. But again, that's a state by state problem. Some are worse or better than others. Some are dictate4d by local municipalities. It's not hard to steer clear of that.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440565 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 5:04 PM
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Maybe, I can add bricks to your back and see if you can run faster??

Even if you remove the bricks, Usain Bolt still wins leaving you eating his dust while he gets steak dinner.

That's the problem with supply-side / Friedman / Adam Smith economics...a very few do very well, and everyone else gets ground into the dirt. Great if you're one of the lucky few...at least until the peasants get sick of it and drag out the guillotines.

History has proven conclusively your system does not work.

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Author: LordFoolman Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440566 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 5:20 PM
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Even if you remove the bricks, Usain Bolt still wins leaving you eating his dust while he gets steak dinner.

That's the problem with supply-side / Friedman / Adam Smith economics...a very few do very well, and everyone else gets ground into the dirt. Great if you're one of the lucky few...at least until the peasants get sick of it and drag out the guillotines.

History has proven conclusively your system does not work.



Sorry 1poorguy.

I completely disagree. I know you've been polite to me in the last several times I've been here when I went against the grain. And I really do appreciate that. I really do. Trust me, that does not go un-noticed.

I think one thing that one got to realize with the free market capitalism is that it's not a "zero-sum" game. In other words, one person's gain economically does not necessarily equate another person's economic loss.

In reality, the free market lifts most people up. Yes, there may be a WIDE disparity in achievement across the demographic spectrum. Some people do far better than others. Yes, the CEO of Exxon or Google or Twitter is going to do far better than the 22 year old working at Wendy's.

But what this free market does is that it not only provides mobility for the 20 year old to move up elsewhere....maybe she becomes a good waiter at a nicer restaurant and instead of making minimum wage, she starts pulling in the large tips at an upscale restaurant. There is mobility. Not all minimum wage workers at 19 years old are stuck at minimum wage until they are 39 years old. They often move up in wage.

Also, the free economy, with its productivity annual gains, lowers the cost of many products and services. Have you ever seen the prices of phones and computers? They drop dramatically year by year. It's Moore's Law in action.

And overall, the cost of everything goes down when productivity goes up. Things are always becoming more efficient. Things are always becoming more automated.

In the end, what this ends up being is that people are becoming richer. Whether it's a rise in income or a lowering of costs of basic or leading edge products of services, people are increasingly becoming richer and can more easily buy basic stuff.

Trust me....the trend is unambiguous. The standard of living for everyone, from the very bottom to the very top, advances incessantly.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440567 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 6:00 PM
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I know you've been polite to me in the last several times I've been here when I went against the grain. And I really do appreciate that. I really do. Trust me, that does not go un-noticed.

I try not to get nasty unless someone is being an a-hole. Differing opinions is not the same as being a troll or an ass.

...the trend is unambiguous. The standard of living for everyone, from the very bottom to the very top, advances incessantly.

I disagree with you, but thought I would answer this comment in particular. Yes, the standard of living goes up generally for everyone. Compare the 15th century to today...no contest. But what makes an economy successful is when the delta between the top and the bottom isn't cavernous. It was in the 15th century, and really most of history until the 20th century. A combination of factors including WWII (and its effects) created a huge middle-class and reduced the delta. A system that fosters a healthy middle class (and the consumption they engage in) will lift everyone, and it does so more strongly and sustainably than systems that don't. No, it's not exactly zero-sum. But if all the wealth is concentrated in the upper few percent of the population the economy suffers horribly (how many big screen TVs do those people buy?). Spread it out over larger numbers of people and you're selling a lot more big screen TVs, which means more cash flowing through the economy, more jobs for people who make, deliver and sell those TVs, etc.

A large delta, which Adam Smith inexorably leads to, is great for a few but harms the economy (and just about everyone else).

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Author: CountNoCount Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440568 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 6:08 PM
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I think one thing that one got to realize with the free market capitalism is that it's not a "zero-sum" game. In other words, one person's gain economically does not necessarily equate another person's economic loss.

In reality, the free market lifts most people up.


So, you are claiming that Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France, etc are doomed to failure?

CNC

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 6:19 PM
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"In one or two generations, the red states with its low tax, low regulation philosophy will economically skyrocket and gain tremendously in wealth. Lives and standards of living improve dramatically. And the blue states, always burdening, and dare I say, attacking business and wealthy people and investors, will lose wealth, wither in economic vitality, and start to border on 3rd-world status."

What evidence do you use to support this theory?

How can you believe this given the fact that a ranking of wealthiest states shows that blue states to be generally higher ranked than red states? Almost all of the red states that are highly ranked are because of mineral wealth, not economic philosophy.

"Red states with a free-economy philosophy like Texas have been rising....vast migration of people from the West Coast and Northeast and Great Lake states have moved there in droves for economic opportunity and lower cost of living."

You are misrepresenting migration patterns in the U.S. especially long term migration patterns.

"Economic freedom is what does good for people. Whether it's the United States vs rest of the world's socialism in the 20th socialism, or free Texas vs bi-coastal anti-business attitude in the last 10-15 years....the evidence is clear."

Let's rank states by the amount of state government spending divided by the amount of state GDP. That seems like a reasonable estimate of how socialist a state is (the more socialistic a state is, the more government spending you would see relative to GDP).

Which color states do you think are generally ranked higher in this exercise?

Here is a hint, you wouldn't like the rankings.

"Be honest with yourself."

Indeed. Be honest. Do you think constantly ignoring fact that disprove your worldview is honest?

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Author: LordFoolman Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440570 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 6:24 PM
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---In reality, the free market lifts most people up---.

So, you are claiming that Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France, etc are doomed to failure?

CNC



What an incredibly silly statement. No one is claiming that Sweden and Denmark et al. are "doomed to failure." They will simply grow more slowly than those states that have freer governance and structures. They will lag. Their growth rates of GDP per capita already shows this for the last several decades.....do you guys not know this?

Except for very small states like Litchenstein and a couple of other Middle Eastern very small countries (which crude oil completely dominates), the US leads the pack in economic growth, if accounting for PPP.

Get over it. You live in the largest and richest nation EVER!! Because of CAPITALISM!!

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440572 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 7:17 PM
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That's what we are dealing with

What you mean, we, white man?

How many years have you lived in California?

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 7:24 PM
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They will simply grow more slowly than those states that have freer governance and structures. They will lag. Their growth rates of GDP per capita already shows this for the last several decades.....do you guys not know this?

Wage disparity in the USA, vastly greater than in those countries, is unsustainable.

I'd prefer to see a slower, more fair and balanced growth pattern that takes into account the well being of all the USA workers, the national infrastructure, and the environment.

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440574 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 7:36 PM
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In one or two generations, the red states with its low tax, low regulation philosophy will economically skyrocket and gain tremendously in wealth. Lives and standards of living improve dramatically. And the blue states, always burdening, and dare I say, attacking business and wealthy people and investors, will lose wealth, wither in economic vitality, and start to border on 3rd-world status.

This is an interesting take. There is only one problem with it. "Reality."

Reality: Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Wyoming, Oklahoma, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Tenessee, Maine, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico and others have been "low tax states" for more than a century, and you don't see people "flocking" to get in there. In fact, you find their economic growth far lower than California, Minnesota, Washington, and Oregon - those wretched "high tax states" you are so sure are about to collapse. Even Michigan, even with the decimation of their signature automobile industry is close to the median on economic growth!

Reality: all those "low tax states" actually get subsidies from the Federal government, as they get back much more in federal revenue than they send in, and they still don't prosper economically. Indeed, if the high tax states stopped sending them the money, those states would be even worse off than they already are.

Reality: the "high tax states" actually get hit twice: their median incomes are often significantly higher than the "low tax states", so their citizens are paying more in Federal taxes, as well as more in state taxes. And yet by and large (except for the two oil states), the high tax states are still growing faster.

Reality: Texas does well largely because it has an extraction economy. If it didn't have "oil", it would be just another ho-hum state with a middling economy. And the only reason there's any high-tech there is not because of taxes, but because Lyndon Johnson put a multi-billion dollar high tech engine there four decades ago with the space program. That has had a trillion dollar payoff, but Texans like to pretend it had something to do with "taxes", which it assuredly did not.

Reality: North Dakota is growing like wildfire, again because of natural resource extraction. When that runs out, expect job growth to plummet, as it did in Pennsylvania and Ohio - as it did in California after the gold ran out - unless North Dakota does something to build an infrastructure that lets new industries flourish. Education is a good one and there are others. If you expect "low taxes" to do it, well, you'll be Mississippi in no time. Hint: Alaska has really, really low taxes; indeed people actually get a rebate check for thousands of dollars. Economic growth? Barely noticeable.

Reality: Resource extraction is a terrific recipe for economic growth, you just have to make sure you have a lot of oil, or gold, or something valuable underground. If you can manage that, you're in great shape. If not, well you had better do something to prepare your citizens to do more than plant rows of cotton, or corn, and "low taxes" don't do that.

Reality: When Cotton was king, the South had "high taxes", because the government was funded through tariffs on exports, and that was mostly all cotton. Unfortunately the South decided that plantation owners could profit while the rest of their states declined, education was ignored and infrastructure investment laughed at, and you end up with a lot of ignorant poor people and no industry.

the evidence is clear. Be honest with yourself.

Yes, the evidence is clear. But you have to actually read it, which you obviously have not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_economic...

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440575 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 9:20 PM
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Right.....and that's why red states are kicking the hec out of blue states currently in economics. That IS the evidence. That's what we are dealing with. Jobs are growing.....people are becoming richer....people CAN AFFORD HOMES. Try buying a modest home in California....outside of crime ridden areas...it's impossible unless you got close to $500,000- $1 million!!

Live in your fantasy land AngelMay.



I do. California. Paid cash for the house. Just bought a BMW. Paid cash for that, too. House is definitely modest. But we are not in a high crime area. In fact, Santa Rosa is really nice and close enough to "the city" we could be there in about 45 minutes - but have no reason to go, really, since Santa Rosa has everything we need.


Now, I'm an atheist. So in full disclosure, I would say I would probably fear the religious faction a bit. But again, that's a state by state problem. Some are worse or better than others. Some are dictate4d by local municipalities. It's not hard to steer clear of that.


You are kidding yourself. It's very hard to steer clear of that. When police forces look more like the military every day and when the lawmakers see to it that women are treated like cattle, it's not going to be a pleasant place to live. When the rich in your paradise get richer and richer and richer - at the expense of the rest of you who will continue to get poorer and poorer and poorer you would soon see that it's not all it's cracked up to be.

I would much rather live in a liberal country/state. This country has done far better under Democratic governorship than Republican. We used to have a middle class who could afford to live. Our current congress has put the stoppers on that. Now our infrastructure is crumbling, people can't find work because so many jobs have gone overseas. Now the corporations want to "go overseas", too - anything to keep from paying for this country they live in and that has been so good to them.

Bah! You enjoy your Red paradise. I'll stand way back from that border.

AM

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440576 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 9:48 PM
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You are misrepresenting migration patterns in the U.S. especially long term migration patterns.

What are you thinking of here, Umm? IIRC, the migration pattern for the last few decades has been to the sunbelt which, in general, are "redneck/red" country. Even California has had negative (domestic) population outflows since the 90s. Ex- foreign immigration and in-state births, up until 1990 there were large positive inflows to California. In the 20 years since, there have been large negative outflows.

DB2

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/16/2014 9:52 PM
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GH: Reality: When Cotton was king, the South had "high taxes", because the government was funded through tariffs on exports, and that was mostly all cotton.

Oops! Goofy, you forgot this little gem: No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State. Article 1, Section 9.

Otherwise, a brilliant treatise.

CNC

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Author: NailThatJello Big gold star, 5000 posts Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440578 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/17/2014 1:26 AM
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Reality: Texas does well largely because it has an extraction economy. If it didn't have "oil", it would be just another ho-hum state... Resource extraction is a terrific recipe for economic growth, you just have to make sure you have a lot of oil, or gold, or something valuable underground. If you can manage that, you're in great shape. If not, well you had better do something to prepare your citizens to do more than plant rows of cotton, or corn, and "low taxes" don't do that.

My image of Texas wealth is land and cattle, like JR Ewing, though I guess he really had lots of oil up his sleeve. His big flashy hat and ranch were deceiving, just like him.

Land & cattle are resource extractive, but Texas has plenty, though each ranch has only one Ewing family at the top of its economic pyramid, the rest are low-paid farm hands or ex-slaves. And even a huge state can't contain that many ranches since each one is so vast. A natural check on the number of Ewings, good. So checking the GDP output by sector, maybe not surprising that ranching is not high on the list like it might have been a hundred years ago.

What is surprising is that manufacturing is ahead of mining (which includes oil), or at least it was a few years ago. About $160 vs 140 billion.
http://econpost.com/texaseconomy/texas-gdp-size-rank

What the heck are they manufacturing in Texas? Can all that be Dell Computers? Defense industry missiles, combat uniforms and other military parts destined as gifts to be handed to ISIS? I imagine Texas must make a lot of guns. Mountains of guns. Guns of all types, sizes, shapes. Maybe also some trailer park homes?

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Author: rmhj Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440579 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/17/2014 3:43 AM
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LF:In one or two generations, the red states with its low tax, low regulation philosophy will economically skyrocket and gain tremendously in wealth. Lives and standards of living improve dramatically. And the blue states, always burdening, and dare I say, attacking business and wealthy people and investors, will lose wealth, wither in economic vitality, and start to border on 3rd-world status.

Where's the ;-) ?

Seriously... The red states have been low tax forever. And yet they're *still* heavily subsidized by all those rapidly-becoming-impoverished blue states. Take a look at the net federal spending to states: nearly all those red states receive more than $1 per $1 of federal taxes collected.

California, Minnesota, ... Massachusetts, all of these states are recovering better than the bulk of your 'red' states.

Meanwhile, Wisconsin, with a tax-killing (R) governor, trails the country in job creation.

California recently freed itself from the strangle-hold on new taxes by getting a Dem supermajority. And raised taxes. And is doing fully as well as low-tax Texas... and with higher wages to boot.

Economics is a complicated, but the plain evidence shows this story is nonsense.

rj

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Author: rjf53 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440580 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/17/2014 8:55 AM
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Reality: Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Wyoming, Oklahoma, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Tenessee, Maine, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico and others have been "low tax states" for more than a century,

Hi Goofy,

Please leave Iowa out of it, I know they have an embarrassment of nutty right wingers but, at least as far as I know, they have never been a "low tax state".

http://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-states-to-be-a-taxpayer/...

Regards,

B

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/17/2014 11:44 AM
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The red states have been low tax forever. And yet they're *still* heavily subsidized by all those rapidly-becoming-impoverished blue states. Take a look at the net federal spending to states: nearly all those red states receive more than $1 per $1 of federal taxes collected.

I would love to see some politician run on the platform of tax equality, saying "What states collect in taxes should be returned to those same states in services."

Blue staters, of course, would immediately get it, and vote for the guy. Red staters, who wouldn't, would say "Yeah! That's more like it" and vote for the guy.

What's not to like?

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Author: jwiest Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440585 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/17/2014 1:28 PM
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In one or two generations, the red states with its low tax, low regulation philosophy will economically skyrocket and gain tremendously in wealth.

What is this, faith-based economics? Just Believe and you'll get to Heaven...and Jesus is coming, someday?

If left on their own, in one or two generations the red states won't have an infrastructure to support a decent economic base. The national infrastructure is already in decline, because people like you take for granted what our fore-fathers and -mothers built.

The sad truth is the only way conservatives develop any kind of forward thinking or compassion is when they are in a situation that affects them directly. So go live for a while in a place where taxes are low and the wealth gap is huge and no rich people are building roads because there's no point, nobody has any money anyway. You'll become a socialist in no time flat.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440587 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/17/2014 2:30 PM
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Except for very small states like Litchenstein and a couple of other Middle Eastern very small countries (which crude oil completely dominates), the US leads the pack in economic growth, if accounting for PPP.

The US also has substantially higher population growth than other countries.
If you look at the growth of GDP PER CAPITA, the US doesn't look so special anymore.

http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/blog-uploads...

And you're probably wrong about the idea that the "low tax, low regulation states" will on average substantially outgrow the "high tax, high regulation" states in the US.

They haven't in the past. Why would they do so in the future? Red states are usually economic backwaters.


That said, as regards Europe, we now have a shrinking working age population, just like Japan (where the working age population started in the 90s). As such, and given our various policy mistakes, I expect Europe to stagnate for the next decade or two.

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Author: syke6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440589 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/17/2014 3:55 PM
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In reality, the free market lifts most people up. Yes, there may be a WIDE disparity in achievement across the demographic spectrum. Some people do far better than others. Yes, the CEO of Exxon or Google or Twitter is going to do far better than the 22 year old working at Wendy's.

Yes, but..."free markets" does not mean and has never meant, "unregulated markets." All markets, even illegal ones, have rules (in some cases unwritten) and penalties for non-compliance. Tony Soprano will loan you money at a lower interest rate than the payday loan place. But he'll break your arms if you don't pay him back.

When most people say "free markets" what they really mean are "fair markets." That is, when market rules are transparent and equally applied. Fair markets are a great thing.

But sometimes when people say "free markets" they mean "unfair markets." For example, a factor owner spewing his waste into the river, which is cheap for him, but damages other people economically. A fair market would require the factor owner pay the costs for his own waste.

re: 1poorboy and Adam Smith. A surprisingly large portion of "Wealth of Nations" was devoted to taxes, which can be summed up as: Soak the rich.

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Author: yosemitebean Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440591 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/17/2014 6:14 PM
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ISIS is a bunch of religio/fascist thugs. If we don't annihilate them now they will only gain in strength.

--------------------------------------------------------

.....ISIS is a bunch of barbarians running around cutting off peoples heads. That alone should be a good enough reason to annihilate them.

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/17/2014 10:24 PM
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Resource extraction is a terrific recipe for economic growth, you just have to make sure you have a lot of oil, or gold, or something valuable underground.

So in that scenario the Red State Nation would end up like Australia (an extraction economy) except it would have a lot better agricultural base. One could do worse….

DB2

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Author: rmhj Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440597 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/17/2014 10:49 PM
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So in that scenario the Red State Nation would end up like Australia (an extraction economy) except it would have a lot better agricultural base. One could do worse….

Except that the politics of Australia are not much like that of a red state: it has a very high minimum wage, a strong welfare safety net, and their economy has weathered the recent downturns conspicuously well.

rj

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/17/2014 11:27 PM
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So in that scenario the Red State Nation would end up like Australia (an extraction economy) except it would have a lot better agricultural base. One could do worse….
---
Except that the politics of Australia are not much like that of a red state…


True, but the original comment (by Goofyhooy?) implied that an extraction economy wasn't viable. I brought up Australia to show that a country could be extraction-based and still do well (even if it is mostly desert).

DB2

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Author: jakalant Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440603 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 2:51 AM
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In one or two generations, the red states with its low tax, low regulation philosophy will economically skyrocket and gain tremendously in wealth.

not sure how the economy will skyrocket when the only drivable roads are NASCAR racetracks.

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 11:31 AM
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In one or two generations, the red states with its low tax, low regulation philosophy will economically skyrocket and gain tremendously in wealth.

Throwing in my own two cents, from the perspective of someone who deals with land use and development, it is important to separate correlation from causation.

Population trends in this country have been shifting south and west for many decades now. There are many, many contributing factors to this trend: the invention of automobiles, penetration of refrigeration and air conditioning, differing land use policies, public health improvements combatting tropical diseases. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Because our political spectrum currently has a very strong correlation to geography (ie. the northeast is very "blue," while the south and some of the west tends to be more "red"), that longstanding population shift now tends to line up with our political divide. Our political spectrum also correlates with urban/rural splits, with residents of denser patterns of development showing more Democratic self-identification while more sparsely populated areas tend to lean more Republican (which is similarly due to a wide number of factors).

So while it is very easy to correctly point out that many red states and red areas are experiencing population growth that exceeds the national norm, and that the converse is true among many blue state and blue areas, it is not self-evident that such is due to any specific policy prescription (such as tax or regulatory policy) - or even that it is due to any policy prescription, rather than something like the fact that it's warmer in the south and people no longer have to worry about dying of Yellow Fever or relying on shipping for the transport of goods.

Albaby

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 1:12 PM
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Albaby: Because our political spectrum currently has a very strong correlation to geography (ie. the northeast is very "blue," while the south and some of the west tends to be more "red"), that longstanding population shift now tends to line up with our political divide.

One small point: The South tends to be red as a result of two political facts: The Civil War and the Equal Rights Act. The black/white divide, while not as great as it once was, remains enormous. Many Southern Whites remain resentful, and even afraid of blacks, especially as the blacks have a numerical majority in some places (Atlanta, Washington, D.C. come to mind.)

CNC

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 1:23 PM
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Regarding Ferguson, and similar uproars.

Part of my smug, white, racist mind has to say to the black community: "Why do young black people refuse to learn how to live and work in society?" Why does a young man go into a gang instead of learning his algebra and history and getting into at least a white-collar job market? OK, that's broad brush, but it seems to apply to Michael Brown and thousands like him. One has only to walk on the street in some areas or just to listen to conversations (OK, I eavesdrop, or "drop eaves" as the Countess and I like to say) to know the truth of what I say. A quasi literate bunch of people is already handicapped in the job market. Add white prejudice, and it's a very uphill task for them, but they handicap themselves enormously by their own actions or lack thereof.

CNC

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440616 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 1:23 PM
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One small point: The South tends to be red as a result of two political facts: The Civil War and the Equal Rights Act. The black/white divide, while not as great as it once was, remains enormous. Many Southern Whites remain resentful, and even afraid of blacks, especially as the blacks have a numerical majority in some places (Atlanta, Washington, D.C. come to mind.)

Indeed, which is exactly why it's important to recognize that there can be a lot of explanations for why the U.S. population growth patterns reflect greater increases in some "red" areas than some "blue" areas, many of which have little to nothing to do with tax and regulatory policy. The South is red for reasons that have little to do with contemporary policy prescriptions; and people have been seriously moving south (along with west) since the 1950's for reasons that go well beyond government policy. So it is hardly self-evident that the South is experiencing economic and/or population growth because of the policy differences between the South and the Northeast, as opposed to other factors that might be causing that shift.

Albaby

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 4:45 PM
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One small point: The South tends to be red as a result of two political facts: The Civil War and the Equal Rights Act. The black/white divide, while not as great as it once was, remains enormous. Many Southern Whites remain resentful, and even afraid of blacks, especially as the blacks have a numerical majority in some places (Atlanta, Washington, D.C. come to mind.)

CNC




Weeeellllll..... dunno about all that.
Being from the South and all....
We got along with Blacks there just fine, thanks.

Most people - everywhere - are a little intimidated by a majority of people who are different from themselves. And even by a minority of those people if the group looks (and acts) like a bunch of thugs.

But normal looking people with only a skin color difference, I'm not so sure there is much resentment between them.

Most of the resentment/fear comes from those (this is my own opinion) who have never amounted to much - and not likely to. They see the "other" (especially a successful other) as a threat and are PO'ed to the max that that "undeserving" whatshisgums has what the redneck cannot have. Brains is the first thing to come to mind. After that, a good job, a nice house - maybe in a neighborhood the White dufus cannot afford to live in.

Then there is the "we are just naturally superior to THOSE people" type rednecks who have to hate SOMEbody in order to elevate themselves because there is no other way to do it. Certainly not on achievements.

It's altogether depressing.


AM

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Author: NailThatJello Big gold star, 5000 posts Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440632 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 5:13 PM
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Then there is the "we are just naturally superior to THOSE people" type rednecks who have to hate SOMEbody in order to elevate themselves... It's altogether depressing.

Even worse is that Republicans encourage that kind of hate, just so they can gain power. Once in power of course they pass laws and SCOTUS judgements that chisel that hate into law.

Since our foundation as a nation is built on "all men created equal", one can only conclude that the Republicans actually hate America and want to see it destroyed.

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 6:02 PM
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Even worse is that Republicans encourage that kind of hate…

And, on the other side, there are people like Al Sharpton who play the race card repeatedly.

DB2

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 6:36 PM
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And, on the other side, there are people like Al Sharpton who play the race card repeatedly.

Even worse...maybe 1/3 of the time he's right.

Despite all our progress over my lifetime we still seem to have a long way to go.

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 7:58 PM
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Weeeellllll..... dunno about all that.
Being from the South and all....
We got along with Blacks there just fine, thanks.


Did you forget where I came from? Texas.

CNC

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 10:19 PM
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And, on the other side, there are people like Al Sharpton who play the race card repeatedly.



I admit that he seems to. But I'm not black. So I haven't walked a mile in his shoes. If my skin were black and I had experienced discrimination my whole life as, no doubt, he has, my view might be somewhat different.

AM

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 11:00 PM
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And, on the other side, there are people like Al Sharpton who play the race card repeatedly.
---
I admit that he seems to. But I'm not black. So I haven't walked a mile in his shoes.


Well, sure, you want to keep an open mind. But you don't want your brain to fall out either.

We could start with the Tawana Brawley hoax (1987) in which Sharpton and two corrupt lawyers (now disbarred) falsely accused assistant district attorney Steven Pagones and others of gang-raping a 15-year-old girl in a racist attack (Brawley claimed that she’d been smeared with feces and had had racist epithets written on her body).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawana_Brawley_rape_allegations...

And then we could move on to the Crown Heights riots in 1991 which Sharpton helped incite. After the car accident Sharpton stoked anti-Semitic rage. At the funeral for Cato, amid shouts from the crowd of 'Heil Hitler!', Sharpton didn’t call for reconciliation; he inveighed against "diamond dealers."

And no point here in going into the millions the Rev and his organizations owe the IRS….

DB2

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 11:48 PM
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I guess it's fair to say you don't card much for Sharpton.
Whatever he owes to the IRS I'm not worried about. If the IRS decides to go after him there won't be anywhere to hide. The IRS has amazing power to take everything you have if they decide to do it. If he owes so much, why haven't they collected?

AM

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/18/2014 11:50 PM
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Oy! That was "care", not "card".

I must be tired.
Sorry about that.

AM

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 440650 of 445694
Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/19/2014 8:35 AM
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If the IRS decides to go after him there won't be anywhere to hide. The IRS has amazing power to take everything you have if they decide to do it. If he owes so much, why haven't they collected?

Politics, I assume.

This item from 2008 indicates a tab of $1.5 million:
www.nbcnews.com/id/24545747/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/sh...

By 2011 it had grown to over $3 million:
http://nypost.com/2011/12/11/rev-al-deep-in-the-red/#ixzz1gF...

This year it's up to $4.7 million:
www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/story/news/2014/08/03/ny-post-sh...

DB2

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/19/2014 10:08 AM
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Part of my smug, white, racist mind has to say to the black community: "Why do young black people refuse to learn how to live and work in society?"

You find yourself in agreement with those such as Bill Cosby. He told a civil rights conference in 2004, it is their own fault:

"Looking at the incarcerated, these are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake! And then we all run out and are outraged, 'The cops shouldn’t have shot him.' What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?"

DB2

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Subject: Re: I disagree with Obama on ISIS Date: 8/19/2014 11:43 AM
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This year it's up to $4.7 million

At least we don't have to worry about him running for office. An outstanding tax bill would be death to a candidate.

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