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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1960668  
Subject: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 10:07 AM
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That the very next day after the Supreme Court voided key provisions of the Voting Rights Act.... several states that were formerly subject to the provisions of the Voting Rights Act.... initiated new Voter ID laws.

And...

Several Republican officials across the country have been recorded on video in ungarded moments- stating that the purpose is to help Republicans win elections...

Yet still....

Many Republicans still stand behind the threadbare fiction that all of this is to "protect the integrity of the vote".

I mean... do they even believe the words coming out of their mouths?

I have to believe that they are smarter than that.

Which of course raises the question: Why do they continue to lie?
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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907657 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 10:23 AM
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You know that North Carolina GOP executive leader who Aasif Mandvi of The Daily Show interviewed, and who got canned because of what he said to Mandvi, was pretty clear that the main intent was to disenfranchise potential Dem voters.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-october-23-2013/suppre...

Ken

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907664 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 10:39 AM
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Several Republican officials across the country have been recorded on video in ungarded moments- stating that the purpose is to help Republicans win elections...

Yet still....

Many Republicans still stand behind the threadbare fiction that all of this is to "protect the integrity of the vote".

_______________________

You don't get the connection? It's rather simple, when voter fraud is curtailed (because elimination is impossible, IMO) Republicans do better. When illegal immigrants, dead people, people pretending to be someone else, people who vote multiple times aren't allowed to vote, Republicans do better.

My personal favorite being Wendy Rosen, Democrat and Congressional Candidate who had to step down from her race because she was voting in Maryland AND Florida. It was Florida that noticed this during a voter fraud crackdown. Maryland didn't care and has no such laws in place.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/maryland-politics/post/m...

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Author: laissezFaireOne Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907667 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 10:44 AM
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"Which of course raises the question: Why do they continue to lie?
"

Firs, you explain why dim continue to lie especially your president.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907668 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 10:46 AM
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You don't get the connection? It's rather simple, when voter fraud is curtailed (because elimination is impossible, IMO) Republicans do better. When illegal immigrants, dead people, people pretending to be someone else, people who vote multiple times aren't allowed to vote, Republicans do better.

The above argument raises another, equally profound problem for Republican apologists for vote suppression schemes. Namely:

The number of instances of voter fraud that have been documented shrinks to the point of infinitesimally small. Every single attempt, at least on this board, to blow up the numbers for voter fraud, have been traced back to rumors spread by right wing blogs and media whores.

No serious investigation has ever been able to find these huge numbers of fraudulent voters.

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907674 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 10:59 AM
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No serious investigation has ever been able to find these huge numbers of fraudulent voters.

___________

Which proves the point of Maryland who didn't do any investigations and was only made aware of voter fraud by Florida who did find it. It's pretty easy to keep the fraud convictions down where you don't look for it. Although everytime fraud is exposed, it's not believed or called 'too small to make a difference'. (True on the Presidential level, but not for State and local races)

The real question is why about the Obama Media claims people are being disenfrached, when they aren't. People are offered free IDs and provision ballots. States that remove potential problems all offer over 60 days for someone to challenge the ruling. Photo IDs are free to those who need them.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907704 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 12:08 PM
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cj sez...

Which proves the point of Maryland who didn't do any investigations and was only made aware of voter fraud by Florida who did find it. It's pretty easy to keep the fraud convictions down where you don't look for it. Although everytime fraud is exposed, it's not believed or called 'too small to make a difference'. (True on the Presidential level, but not for State and local races)

Florida... Florida... where have I heard about voter fraud in Florida? Oh yes, I remember.....



A pair of investigations by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement offer additional evidence that conservative fears of widespread voter fraud are overblown. The first, which investigated a voter registration group called Florida New Majority Education Fund, determined that no arrests were justified. The second investigation, which investigated a vendor for Florida Republicans known as Strategic Allied Consulting, uncover just one individual who admitted to fraudulently filling out two voter registration forms.
Although Republican lawmakers commonly use fears about voters showing up to the polls and pretending to be someone else as a justification for laws making it harder to vote, this form of fraud is particularly unusual. A Brennan Center study of Wisconsin voters during the 2004 election uncovered just seven cases of fraud out of three million votes cast — meaning that only 0.0002 percent of votes were cast fraudulently.


http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/09/13/2592781/florida-...

September 5, 2013 |

An investigation into the issue of voter registration fraud in the Sunshine State initiated by Florida Repulicans has unearthed no evidence of wrongdoing—except on the part of the GOP. Florida's Secretary of State Ken Detzner, prompted the state's Department of Law Enforcement to research the alleged problem, setting its sights on the Florida New Majority, an established progressive organization know for advocating the spread of democratic participation across the country. The organization was vital in registering scores of minorities last year—something which Republicans generally don't like.

The investigation, curiously, found nothing on the Florida New Majority, but it did stumble across a little fraud from the Strategic Allied Consultants—a GOP contractor that made the news last year for falsifying registration forms.....


http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/florida-gop-and-vo...


Seems the only person prosecuted for florida voter fraud was a Republican... for collecting a stack of absentee ballots:

A Miami-Dade resident accused of absentee ballot fraud has accepted a plea deal, the Miami Herald reports.

Alleged boletera Deisy Cabrera stood accused of illegally collecting at least 31 absentee ballots for local elections last August. As part of a deal for one year of probation, according to the Herald, a felony charge of absentee ballot fraud was dropped.

Instead, Cabrera reportedly pled no contest to two misdemeanor charges of possessing more than two ballots.




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/08/deisy-cabrera_n_406...

And the funny thing is... I don't even think that this Republican malfeasance rises to the level of necessitating voter ID laws...

Why?

Because Voter ID laws are designed to make it more difficult for certain people to vote.. the elderly, students, minorities, and as we've seen in Texas- married women.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907708 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 12:18 PM
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In other words:

As regards Florida, the drama followed the predictable, but well worn progression.

1. Republican charges of "massive voter fraud". Heads on plate demanded.

2. Investigation launched.

3. No evidence of "massive voter fraud" found.

4. Republicans continue to insist that "massive voter fraud" found in Florida.

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907709 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 12:23 PM
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Seems the only person prosecuted for florida voter fraud was a Republican... for collecting a stack of absentee ballots:

_____________________

Terrible reporting then...here's more Democrat voter fraud in Florida.

The top staffer for Florida Democratic Rep. Joe Garcia resigned this weekend after being implicated in a voting-fraud scheme.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/02/top-staffer-for-f...

Illegal alien voters along with immigrants that are prohibited from voting were detected voting in Florida in 2012

http://watchdogwire.com/florida/video/illegal-aliens-caught-...

And frankly I don't care who's committing the fraud if they are Republican, Democrat or Independent. Let's have laws that prevent voter fraud. Voter ID laws make it harder for a random person to show up and say "I'm John Doe and I'd like to vote".

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907715 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 12:34 PM
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Terrible reporting then...here's more Democrat voter fraud in Florida.

The top staffer for Florida Democratic Rep. Joe Garcia resigned this weekend after being implicated in a voting-fraud scheme.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/02/top-staffer-for-f......

Illegal alien voters along with immigrants that are prohibited from voting were detected voting in Florida in 2012

http://watchdogwire.com/florida/video/illegal-aliens-caught-......

And frankly I don't care who's committing the fraud if they are Republican, Democrat or Independent. Let's have laws that prevent voter fraud. Voter ID laws make it harder for a random person to show up and say "I'm John Doe and I'd like to vote".


More of that Republican charge of "massive voter fraud".

And yet, subsequent investigation revealed no massive voter fraud.

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907722 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 12:58 PM
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And yet, subsequent investigation revealed no massive voter fraud.

__________

So what do you consider "Massive"? How much Voter fraud is needed before you say enough? I'm looking for signs of massive voter supression, but haven't seen any.

Where are the people denied the right to vote? Those without ID are required under the law to get free ones when asked. Anyone who was removed from the voter roles was given enough notice they could challenge the ruling.

You don't even need an ID if you vote absentee. Just fill out the paperwork and mail your ballot in.

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907726 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 1:11 PM
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Nicely done, Bill. Nicely done.

Ken

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907727 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 1:16 PM
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So what do you consider "Massive"? How much Voter fraud is needed before you say enough?

When the proposed solution disenfranchises voters on an order of magnitude greater than the number of votes that are actually fraudulent.... then the solution is bogus.

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Author: Colovion Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907734 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 1:39 PM
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Several Republican officials across the country have been recorded on video in ungarded moments- stating that the purpose is to help Republicans win elections...

Yet still....

Many Republicans still stand behind the threadbare fiction that all of this is to "protect the integrity of the vote".


Or they're working under the entirely plausible theory that fraudulent votes are helping elect Dems instead of Republicans, especially in tight races (<cough>Senator Franken</cough>).

There's plenty of evidence that reducing fraud harms Dems because it's Dems who either commit or ignore fraud that helps them win. You don't see the GOP busing in bankers in three-piece suits to vote in elections then rewarding them with caviar... but you can bank on seeing that happen with homeless guys and cigarettes in many Dem districts.

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Author: Colovion Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907736 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 1:43 PM
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No serious investigation has ever been able to find these huge numbers of fraudulent voters.

That's because the one measure that would allow for the detection of these fraudulent votes... namely REQUIRING ID AT THE POLLS, is the one you guys fight tooth and nail.

Again, that would be like a party store owner refusing to check ID's then when the cops show up saying they had to have served underage people the store owner saying, "I have no proof of that."

Not.
Fooling.
ANYBODY.
Padre.

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907750 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 2:19 PM
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When the proposed solution disenfranchises voters on an order of magnitude greater than the number of votes that are actually fraudulent.... then the solution is bogus.

_________

And since nobody has been disenfranchised yet...the solution by your own view is valid.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907753 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 2:27 PM
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And since nobody has been disenfranchised yet...the solution by your own view is valid.

We've bought the cookbooks for cannibals. We've bought the pots, stoked the fires and rounded the people up that we're going to cook.

But we haven't cooked them yet. So how can you say there's a problem?

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907768 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 3:14 PM
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We've bought the cookbooks for cannibals. We've bought the pots, stoked the fires and rounded the people up that we're going to cook.

But we haven't cooked them yet. So how can you say there's a problem?

______________________

But none of that has happened...of course under your example we should start bombing Iran ASAP.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907798 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 5:37 PM
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cjb >You don't even need an ID if you vote absentee. Just fill out the paperwork and mail your ballot in.

So why would any person desiring to commit voter fraud go to the polls and try and impersonate some person who may well show up?

Just mail in the ballot.

Peter

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Author: SpeedBump13 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907805 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 6:09 PM
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The number of instances of voter fraud that have been documented shrinks to the point of infinitesimally small. Every single attempt, at least on this board, to blow up the numbers for voter fraud, have been traced back to rumors spread by right wing blogs and media whores.

Reading over this thread reminds me of the debate that once existed over climate change.

We: 99.9% of climate scientists agree that the globe it getting warmer and that humans are contributing to this warming. http://boards.fool.com/climate-change-117597.aspx

They: A British guy lied about it and anyway Steve Smithers, with a degree in pet psychology, did a study that suggests it might be false.

-Wes

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Author: jwiest Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907811 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 7:41 PM
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Which of course raises the question: Why do they continue to lie?

Because it's been a viable working strategy for years. Even pragmatists fall for it, otherwise the myth that Republicans are better on the economy would have been long dead.

Lies work, and the liars must continue to defend them or the jig is up.

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Author: Wessex99 Big red star, 1000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907828 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 8:52 PM
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They lie because they are evil.

Wessex

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Author: Wessex99 Big red star, 1000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907833 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/30/2013 8:58 PM
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Apparently, the right-wingers are incapable of comprehending anything different despite evidence to the contrary once they have been exposed to some lie that fits into their pathetic world view.

Wessex

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907893 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/31/2013 8:46 AM
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In this day and age of uber technology, warnings about terrorism, enormous illegal immigrant problems, wouldn't you think that in a 1-2 year period we could develop a national ID card of some sort?

This does not violate privacy, it makes you a bona-fide citizen of the USA. Nothing sinister. I bet the NSA could give an enormous profile on most of us right now.

I don't think we have an enormous voting problem now. But a National ID card or whatever would provide a solution to many of the issues of today.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907934 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/31/2013 11:09 AM
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In this day and age of uber technology, warnings about terrorism, enormous illegal immigrant problems, wouldn't you think that in a 1-2 year period we could develop a national ID card of some sort?

I'd be for that in a heartbeat. Much better solution that the various states crafting rinky dink voter ID laws that end up disenfranchizing a significant number of targeted populations.

Would be interesting to see how far something like that gets; last time it was proposed, it faced significant opposition from those fearing "Big Brother", those who endlessly repeated the mantra "Papers, please!"

Just make sure the damned thing doesn't have an embedded RFID chip. Otherwise, it will never fly.

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Author: synchronicityII Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1907984 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/31/2013 12:30 PM
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In this day and age of uber technology, warnings about terrorism, enormous illegal immigrant problems, wouldn't you think that in a 1-2 year period we could develop a national ID card of some sort?

Actually, both people on the far to far-ish left and far to far-ish right are opposed to this, for similar reasons - increased government "control" over the populace (if "the gummint"/"the man" issues you an ID they can "track" you better or somesuch).

Yes, in this day and age of NSA actions (which, I might notice, most congressional Republicans have far fewer concerns about for the most part than "regular" citizens) and private companies having data files on people a mile long, this seems ridiculous. Personally, I wouldn't mind it one bit - but yes, there are people who don't like that concept at all, on both sides of the aisle.

Yet another example of my contention that the political spectrum is not a line but a circle, and that the people at the very far left/far right have a lot more in common than they might think.

-synchronicity

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908026 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/31/2013 1:05 PM
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HMALETTER says

In this day and age of uber technology, warnings about terrorism, enormous illegal immigrant problems, wouldn't you think that in a 1-2 year period we could develop a national ID card of some sort?

As a dual citizen, I carry a Costa Rican national identity card. It's a very convenient form of ID for all purposes when I am there. To get it I had to spend about 20 minutes with some very polite officials and buy a couple of tax stamps for the equivalent of about 25 cents.

Free would be even better. When I hear about an ID system for the U.S. that is nationwide, free, convenient, and usable for all identification purposes, I will support it. But ID schemes plainly designed to suppress voting don't meet that description.

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1908140 of 1960668
Subject: Re: I Find it Interesting Date: 10/31/2013 8:59 PM
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As a dual citizen, I carry a Costa Rican national identity card. It's a very convenient form of ID for all purposes when I am there. To get it I had to spend about 20 minutes with some very polite officials and buy a couple of tax stamps for the equivalent of about 25 cents.

Free would be even better. When I hear about an ID system for the U.S. that is nationwide, free, convenient, and usable for all identification purposes, I will support it. But ID schemes plainly designed to suppress voting don't meet that description.
___________

I agree 100%

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