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When I realized I was gay at 12 I never thought I would be able to but today I married the man I love here at city hall in San Francisco. What I did not expect was that the two of us would start crying. I mean we have been in a committed relationship for 12 years so what the big deal with a little paper?

Well, marriage is a big deal and it is a wonderful ceremony in committing yourself to another person for eternity. We love each other more than you can imagine and this certificate states that no matter what you can't break us apart. I find it funny how the fundies claim that my gay marriage is destroying marriage for heterosexuals.

Leolo
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Congratulations.
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Well, marriage is a big deal and it is a wonderful ceremony in committing yourself to another person for eternity.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You just made me break out in a cold sweat. <g>

2828
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Are you in the photo on the right side of the page?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,111332,00.html

It's worth a shot, you were one of 150 couples.

2828
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Leolo,

Congratulations on getting married!! As a life-long resident of the SF Bay Area, I wasn't all that taken with Gavin Newsom when he ran for Mayor. But I must say, he has impressed me a great deal once he got into office.

I wish you all the best!

twocbock
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So what is your filing status for taxes?


c
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I find it funny how the fundies claim that my gay marriage is destroying marriage for heterosexuals.

It couldn't possibly destroy it more than heterosexual marriage does.<g> (Hope my DW doesn't read that or I'll have some 'splainin' to do.)

Traditionally we tell the groom "good luck" and the bride "best wishes", so is it okay if I say good luck and best wishes?

1HF



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We love each other more than you can imagine and this certificate states that no matter what you can't break us apart.

First of all, congratulations. I think it's just wonderful that you have found such love. We all--gay and straight alike--seek it, that's for sure.

Just for the sake of discussion, can you explain why the certificate is so meaningful? Is it a practical consideration (insurance, end of life decisions, etc.) or a psychological boost?
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I wish you all the best!

Me too, Leolo!

tngirl
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So what is your filing status for taxes?

I didn't expect such an ugly remark from someone as nice as you. Jeeze, cattleman, let Leolo enjoy his happiness.

tngirl
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If the fundies get their constitional ban on gay marriage, I would support an effort in my state to:

(1) recognize civil union in ALL ways applicable under state law

(2) dis-establish legal marriage

(3) declare that marriages are not civil unions under state law
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(3) declare that marriages are not civil unions under state law

I think you'll need a grandfather clause to declare existing marriages civil unions unless BOTH wish to exclude their marriage.

1HF -- having auditory hallucinations of hearing "Yippee" in my state all the way from your state otherwise
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Wow! Hurray for Newsom. Congratulations to you both. Got an email message last night that Lyon and Martin would be the first—they have been amazing in the long history for gay pride and gay rights. I am full of pride myself right now for a great town that just went ahead and got this thing underway. It's going to be fascinating to see where we go from here

Jeez, I wish I was there—I hate to miss a big SF celebration, especially this one.


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Jeez, I wish I was there—I hate to miss a big SF celebration, especially this one.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Nah, just eat some soup out of a breadbowl you'll be fine <g>.

2828
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{{(2) dis-establish legal marriage

(3) declare that marriages are not civil unions under state law}}


I would work for these two if gay unions were made legal.

Maybe the best compromise is just treat every individual the same and not have government recognize any unions between any people.



c
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{{I didn't expect such an ugly remark from someone as nice as you. Jeeze, cattleman, let Leolo enjoy his happiness.}}


I am sorry you considered it ugly. I am curious what motive lawbreakers have when they decide to break the law.


c
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{{ I am curious what motive lawbreakers have when they decide to break the law.}}


I think these gay marriages happening are a vast right wing conspiracy to make sure Bush gets reelected. Why else would they be happening so much in an election year when only a small majority (30% or so) is for them?



c
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I am curious what motive lawbreakers have when they decide to break the law

Kind of makes you wish for negative recs, doesn't. Sometimes the frowny face isn't enough.

arrete
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Some people don't like the cattlemans brand of fairness.

2828
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{{yell at your barefoiot and pregnant wfe today}}


I have never understood why people assume this. My wife is more highly educated than I am. She already has her master's and is going to get a Pharm D degree. She will make more her first yeat than I probably ever will in one year.



c
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cattleman22:
I am sorry you considered it ugly. I am curious what motive lawbreakers have when they decide to break the law.


Standing up to immoral laws and demanding that discrimination stops is all the motive I need!

Leolo
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She will make more her first year than I probably ever will in one year.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

She sounds like a keeper cattleman.


2828
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I didn't expect such an ugly remark from someone as nice as you. Jeeze, cattleman, let Leolo enjoy his happiness.

I didn't interpret this comment as "ugly." When Leolo files his taxes and puts "married," will that be recognized by the IRS as valid even though his married status has occurred in SF, a local municipality? I think it's a valid question and one which Leolo has undoubtedly considered.
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I didn't interpret this comment as "ugly." When Leolo files his taxes and puts "married," will that be recognized by the IRS as valid even though his married status has occurred in SF, a local municipality? I think it's a valid question and one which Leolo has undoubtedly considered.

Maybe you should read cattleman's response to that.

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=20323250

Leolo had a pretty good response, though.

arrete
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{{I didn't expect such an ugly remark from someone as nice as you. Jeeze, cattleman, let Leolo enjoy his happiness.}}


I am sorry you considered it ugly. I am curious what motive lawbreakers have when they decide to break the law.

Why do you consider it breaking the law when it has been sanctioned in the City and County of San Francisco and the unions are being conducted in a government building?

twocbock
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{{Standing up to immoral laws and demanding that discrimination stops is all the motive I need!}}


There is no discrimination. Every single person, regardless of sexual orientation has the exact same opportunity to have a union with aperson of the opposite sex recognized by the government for benefits and taxpayer moneys. If there was discrimination, homesxuals would be unable to have a union with a prson of the opposite sex recognized. However that is not the case as many homosexuals have had unions with a person of the opposite recognized by government.




c
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What I did not expect was that the two of us would start crying

I cried after I got married, too. In fact, I tell my wife I've cried every day since. ;^)

I'll be hoisting a cold glass of Shiner Bock in your honor tonight.

Best to you and your spouse.

cliff
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yell at your barefoiot and pregnant wfe today}}


I have never understood why people assume this. My wife is more highly educated than I am. She already has her master's and is going to get a Pharm D degree. She will make more her first yeat than I probably ever will in one year.



c
**********************

Oh, I wasn't assuming that about your wife, I just thought it was a convenient stereotype to throw at you.
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I am sorry you considered it ugly. I am curious what motive lawbreakers have when they decide to break the law.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Too bad you weren't at the wedding cattleman, you coulda made gay jokes or read from the bible. However, I don't think it's legal to throw rocks at people anymore.

cliff


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Congratulations! Are you going on a honeymoon?

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Congrats Leolo, I think that's great!

st
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Congrats Leolo!

:-)Charlie
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{{Oh, I wasn't assuming that about your wife, I just thought it was a convenient stereotype to throw at you. }}


That is interesting how liberals say stereotypes are not true, unless it is a stereotype about conservatives. Then it has to be true.


c
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{{Too bad you weren't at the wedding cattleman, you coulda made gay jokes or read from the bible. However, I don't think it's legal to throw rocks at people anymore.}}


I dare you to find a single post where I advocate violence agaisnt homesexuals! That is dispicable that you would say that about me.



c
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Brewer opines:

Man, you're about as warm and fuzzy as Margaret Thatcher on a cold day.

Pot, meet Kettle. LOL. Coming from you Brewer that comment is just hysterical. (BTW, congrats Leolo, I wish you well in your new union)

Let's review some of your posts from today, shall we?

1) "Man, you're about as warm and fuzzy as Margaret Thatcher on a cold day.

Go back to the commune and yell at your barefoiot and pregnant wfe today instead of raining on Leolo's parade, huh? "

2) "Actually, I find Kennedy pretty repulsive, and I think that politically he is one step away from pandering to welfare moms and trade unions. I'd still bet on him to win the "Boggle" match against "Doper" Bush any day of the week (before 3PM anyway). "

3) "Also a bit strange that "Doper" Bush didn't resign when it came to light that he was a drunk and a coke head. "

4) "This latest nonsense is a naked appeal to the fundy right to shore up support after all the dope snorting AWOL allegations, pure and simple. So long as they don't waste too much money on it, this claptrap is a lot less harmful than other things the administration has pissed away our money on. "

5) "Actually, I really could care less about Bush's past history of drug use and alcoholism. IMO, the measure of competence is performance, not a person's private "recreational" activities. Since I think Bush's performance has been, shall we say, sub-par, I don't mind seeing him twist in the wind. "

6) "Hyperbolic extrapolation like this is pretty irrelevant. I'm suggesting that past marital indiscretions have little to do with what is important in an elected official. I'd rather have someone intelligent and savvy who has cheated on his wife in the past, than someone who passes muster with the moral majority but can't walk and chew gum at the same time. "

7)"Oh, please. Is there anyone here who HASN'T been repeatedly lied to by their bosses? "

Dude, you must drink turnip juice for breakfast. Lighten up!

tutone





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Nah, just eat some soup out of a breadbowl you'll be fine <g>.

YUM! White clam chowder out of a sourdough bowl. That sounds SO good.

--catmeyoo, ready for dinner


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Dude, you must drink turnip juice for breakfast. Lighten up!

tutone


Give him credit for offering one pretty good fake spammer name.<g> In general, I think a lot partisans could use some liquid humor injected either IV, rectally (for the tight a$$ed) or orally. It's no news flash that wild-eyed partisans (sykesix's phrase) are inflexible, but I don't think that implies they can't be lighthearted. It might not be allowed though. They should probably ask their political thought monitors just to be safe.<g>

1HF
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YUM! White clam chowder out of a sourdough bowl. That sounds SO good.

You know where you can find some of the best CC out of a SDB? Disneyland (Anaheim, CA), of all places! And it's cheap, too--$3 IIRC.
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Congrats Leolo
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I didn't interpret this comment as "ugly." When Leolo files his taxes and puts "married," will that be recognized by the IRS as valid even though his married status has occurred in SF, a local municipality? I think it's a valid question and one which Leolo has undoubtedly considered.

I interpreted his remark to the equivalent of having 2 water fountains - one which states *White* and the other says *Coloreds Only.*

tngirl
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{{I interpreted his remark to the equivalent of having 2 water fountains - one which states *White* and the other says *Coloreds Only.*}}


Hardly. The situation is not the same. If you want to use water fountain comparison, there is one waterfountain (government recognition of unions) that is available for every single person to use. It only has one flavor. Homosexuals have said that they do not like that flavor and want a new flavor. However, every single homsexual can drink from the fountain that is already available and no one can stop them.


c
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You know where you can find some of the best CC out of a SDB? Disneyland (Anaheim, CA), of all places! And it's cheap, too--$3 IIRC.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Must we abbreviate even clam chowder and sour dough bread? What's next after that. I never tried the clam chowder out of the bread bowls when i was in SF because clams make me gag, but if they would've put any other soup in there i would've eaten the hell out of it. Why the discrimination against other cream soups in a bread bowl? I had to watch my friend eat 2 bowls a day when i was there. How about some corn chowder? I'd even settle for cream of mushroom for crying out loud.

2828
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I interpreted his remark to the equivalent of having 2 water fountains - one which states *White* and the other says *Coloreds Only.*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't get that from his post. I gotta go back and read it again.

2828
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You know where you can find some of the best CC out of a SDB? Disneyland (Anaheim, CA), of all places! And it's cheap, too--$3 IIRC. --cc

I believe it. I love Disneyland. I always thought I would hate it, that it would be crowded and noisy and messy and drive me crazy so when I took my son there the first time I was prepared for the worst.

By the end of the day I loved it and wanted to come back every year, and we pretty much did. We would line up early to get in and run right to Pirates of the Caribbean, our favorite ride, before the lines got too long.

My grandfather owned a carnival, H H Gray County Fair Shows, that traveled around Nebraska, and my grandma and I would live in a trailer for a month every summer and "help" him run it.

My help consisted in running out in the early morning and collecting all the money & stuff that had fallen out of people's pockets in the rides that turned you upside down. Most of which I KEPT.

I thought that was exciting when I was a young girl--and was fascinated by the freak show people, the bearded lady and snake charmer and even all the phonies. He had one of those Little Egypt shows too, that only "grown" men could attend, but my cousins and I would peek under the tent at the back and see her dance the 7 veils and things.

As I got older the carnival lost its appeal and I was relieved when he sold it. Disneyland was nothing like my grandpa's carnival.

--catmeyoo

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fascinated by the freak show people, the bearded lady and snake charmer and even all the phonies. He had one of those Little Egypt shows too, that only "grown" men could attend, but my cousins and I would peek under the tent at the back and see her dance the 7 veils and things.

As I got older the carnival lost its appeal and I was relieved when he sold it. Disneyland was nothing like my grandpa's carnival.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sounds more like Neverland <g>.

2828
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wooohooooo!!!!

congrats!!!

silverwing
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Sounds more like Neverland <g>.

A geek joined our carnival one summer--he would open his mouth and let a snake crawl down his throat a ways. And a sword swallower (but he was a phony and the swords retracted). And a fire eater. And a wonderful fun house with a big mechanized fat lady who laughed all the time and sounded so thoroughly tickled that she made you laugh. And a hall of mirrors where you got lost trying to get out. And a bunch of bottles with shriveled heads in them. And lots of tiny dwarf-like people, and giant people. It is all true.

catmeyoo

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On the one hand, congratulations. Hope you have a happy life together.

On the other hand, welcome to hell like the rest of us married folk ;)

JLC
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I would just like to wish you my sincere congratulations........
I am truly sorry there is so much political crap surrounding this. I am a heterosexual female married 9 years (this time) and I think it is beautiful when 2 people who have been involved 12 years (!) can tear up over something I take completely for granted! I think that commitment is worth a whole lot more than the joy the newly (under 5 years or so) involved can claim. Anyways, I bet there are some great services and parties going on and I only wish we could be a part of the celebration!
Again congrats and I hope the honeymoon is fab!!!!!! ;)
V
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Congratulations!!!

Deannda
Many, many more happy years of wedded bliss to you and your partner! :)
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Oh, I just love weddings.

Drinks all around!

tngirl
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When I realized I was gay at 12 I never thought I would be able to but today I married the man I love here at city hall in San Francisco. What I did not expect was that the two of us would start crying. I mean we have been in a committed relationship for 12 years so what the big deal with a little paper?

Well, marriage is a big deal and it is a wonderful ceremony in committing yourself to another person for eternity. We love each other more than you can imagine and this certificate states that no matter what you can't break us apart. I find it funny how the fundies claim that my gay marriage is destroying marriage for heterosexuals.

Congratulations! Hope you'll have many, many years of happiness together.
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Drinks all around!

tngirl


Thanks for the reminder. A toast:

To Change and those who bring it.

To lovers because they're more fun to be around than haters.

To Leolo and his soulmate.
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"COW!"



Duck
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I believe it. I love Disneyland. I always thought I would hate it, that it would be crowded and noisy and messy and drive me crazy so when I took my son there the first time I was prepared for the worst.

Since I live just a stone's throw from Disneyland, I've been there many times, and have seen it at its worst. When it's good, it's very very good, but when it's bad, it's horrid.

The best times I've ever had at Disneyland have been when it's raining or threatening to rain. When an out-of-town visitor wants me to take them there, I look outside. If it's sunny, I say, "Take the 5 Freeway south and exit at Harbor." If it's raining, I grab my coat.
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Your a very optimistic person Leolo, but I think you have your hopes are misplaced. Being married is one of the toughest things you do to a relationship. Committing yourselves to each other is great, but I don't think any minister that would marry two men together has the authority to make it last for eternity. If you believe in the eternal aspect of marriage, what do you think God is going to say when you get up there and say you've been having sex with another man for the last 12 + however-long-you-stay-together years. I'm still 'fundamentally' against marriage between gays, but I don't understand what gays see as the prime reason that they need to be married in the first place? Can you explain it to me.

SB -- (been married for over 17 years and still learning)
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spongBob:
If you believe in the eternal aspect of marriage, what do you think God is going to say when you get up there and say you've been having sex with another man for the last 12 + however-long-you-stay-together years.

I think God will say: “I'm so sorry those idiots denied you marriage for so long. Don't worry; you won't see any of them up here!”


I'm still 'fundamentally' against marriage between gays, but I don't understand what gays see as the prime reason that they need to be married in the first place?


Those that keep asking that question please from now on whenever you attend a straight marriage please ask the bride why she is getting married and that you don't see any need for it. Tell her that it would be better if they just lived together. Her answers will be similar to mine.


Leolo
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Committing yourselves to each other is great, but I don't think any minister that would marry two men together has the authority to make it last for eternity.

If statistics are any guide, they aren't doing such a hot job with marrying men to women, either.

If you believe in the eternal aspect of marriage, what do you think God is going to say when you get up there and say you've been having sex with another man for the last 12 + however-long-you-stay-together years.

If for some reason I ever go senile and start believing in a God, I hope it won't be a sanctimonious pr!ck like yours seems to be.

sydsydsyd
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BTW, congrats, Leolo! Don't let the reactionaries get to you... they still haven't wrapped their pea brains around mixed-race marriages. Give them another half century or so.

sydsydsyd
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Dude, you must drink turnip juice for breakfast. Lighten up!

tutone

**********************

Can you tell I am bored at work?
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Leolo,

Congratulations to you and your honey. :)

May you both live long and prosper.

Love and hugs,
LuckyDog
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there is one waterfountain (government recognition of unions) that is available for every single person to use. It only has one flavor. Homosexuals have said that they do not like that flavor and want a new flavor. However, every single homsexual can drink from the fountain that is already available and no one can stop them

Flavors cattleman? You could use your analogy to discriminate against interacial marriages. Gosh, both parties there could get married, just not to each other. You could make that flavor unavailable at your drinking fountain. Your not discriminating against anyone there - right?

While were at it, let's only recogonize marriages where the couple looks good together. Folks that are extremely tall really ought not be marrying people who are really short. That's a flavor of marriage we ought not permit.

******

Congratulations Leolo! My best to you and your partner.

-foolfromoh


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SpongBob writes:
I don't understand what gays see as the prime reason that they need to be married in the first place? Can you explain it to me.

First off, I really like your show. My kids and I watch it nightly and we laugh like hyenas, especially when you get zapped by jellyfish.

I have a hard time believing you labor under this marriage misconception, seeing as how you live your own life. Consider your relationship with Patrick the starfish. Neither one of you go out on dates..... and you're always doing things together. Remember the episode where patrick was wearing your 'square' undergarments? I thought that was very telling. You two are constantly bickering with each other, and then making up..... Much like my wife and I.

And then there is Squidworth. A single guy with an eye for interior decorating -- such flair and neatness inside his home -- as well as a splash of naughtiness: I mean a house created in the shape of a Mayan God...... RRRRRRaaaaoooohhhh. He also likes to dress in flowered shirts and play his clarinet. He always tries to come between you and Patrick like the jealous girlfriend he is..... I'm glad you see right through it. You and Patrick were made for each other.

Now stop playing coy...... like you really don't get this gay marriage thing. The only person who thinks you're still in the closet is you.

Kisses XOXOXO
cliff

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Now stop playing coy...... like you really don't get this gay marriage thing.

(I thought I heard my name.) The thing about gay marriage is that there's no possible nucleus to legally protect, as there is with a male and female who might produce a nuclear family.

For example, being beyond child-bearing age, I see no reason to get married now. In other words, a certificate and a ceremony simply don't have the impact that they did when the future held the possibility of a long line of progeny.

If one attaches legitimacy of the relationship to a certificate and a ceremony, that's another thing. If the gay couple plans to adopt children, then there's probably a need for a certificate to declare the legitimacy of the unit, much as when M/F marry.

I suspect--although I don't know for sure 'cause he ain't talkin'--that Leolo perceives the certificate and the ceremony as legitimizing his relationship--a perfectly understandable desire.
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Much happiness to you Leolo and your spouse :)


With best wishes from back East - VL
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I guarantee Patrick Star is flamingly gay. I think Sponge Bob is just oblivious. Squidward is just an old, self-obsessed grouch.
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I didn't interpret this comment as "ugly." When Leolo files his taxes and puts "married," will that be recognized by the IRS as valid even though his married status has occurred in SF, a local municipality? I think it's a valid question and one which Leolo has undoubtedly considered.

That shouldn't be a problem for the San Franciscans since, congratulations and best wishes to them aside, their marriages aren't legal under California law. It was a marvelous, romantic, statement-making gesture, but except for laws that San Francisco can control, legally that's about all it was.

Much hairier from a legal standpoint will be what happens when legal same-sex marriages occur in Massachusetts, as it appears they will. The Internal Revenue Code says that your marital status is determined under state law. DOMA says that Federal law will not recognize same-sex marriages. We seem to have a conflict, which is why there are gaboodles of lawsuits to come.

Phil
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Congratulations! May you have many years of happiness ahead.
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You have my congrats too!
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Leolo,

Congratulations and best wishes for a wonderful marriage to the person whom you wish to share the rest of your life with!!!

By the way, my heterosexual marriage of over 15 great years is still doing wonderfully.

Sincerest best wishes,

JB
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The thing about gay marriage is that there's no possible nucleus to legally protect, as there is with a male and female who might produce a nuclear family.

While this is true, we live in a society that is more enlightened than societies that required children to legitimize a pair bond. We don't prevent the sterile from marrying. We don't test for fertility as a condition of granting a marriage license. We give the benefits of marriage to those who will not be creating or training replacements. We've implicitly recognized that bonding transcends breeding and brooding.

For example, being beyond child-bearing age, I see no reason to get married now. In other words, a certificate and a ceremony simply don't have the impact that they did when the future held the possibility of a long line of progeny.

Not the same impact and not as big of an impact, but not an insignificant impact. We celebrate the weddings of post-menopausal couples because they are choosing to share their lives together and committing to that in a formal gesture. If you chose to marry and nobody was happy for you, I'm guessing it would hurt.

1HF
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Congratulations on formalizing your long term commitment, Leolo.

I wish you both, long and happy lives together!
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Congratulations!

I expect there will be lawsuits over whether this type of marriage has to be recognized, which will probably be appealed all the way up to the Supreme Court. Here's hoping the Supreme Court recognized gay marriages.
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if they would've put any other soup in there i would've eaten the hell out of it.

Chili is wonderful in a soup bowl!
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<This certificate states that no matter what you can't break us apart>

LEOL- I would say that perhaps your marriage has brought you some sort of certainty about your relationship, but as you stated before "what's the big deal with a little piece of paper?"- not much in my opinion. Marriage only signifies a legal connection, nothing more. It has no control over whether you break up or stay together for ever, and that is always under you and your partners control. I offer my congrats, but offer caution...don't allow that little certificate to change a successful relationship of 12 years. Remember, you control your relationship, the marriage doesn't, and neither does the little certificate. I would also guess that in your head you were committed for eternity before this little piece of paper was signed. If not then I would reevaluate WHY you got married. I am hoping you didn't get married just because you now have the right to.

Congats

BH
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While this is true, we live in a society that is more enlightened than societies that required children to legitimize a pair bond. We don't prevent the sterile from marrying. We don't test for fertility as a condition of granting a marriage license. We give the benefits of marriage to those who will not be creating or training replacements. We've implicitly recognized that bonding transcends breeding and brooding.

Good points, 1HF!
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When I realized I was gay at 12

------

Congratulations on getting married, however, I'm interested in how you were able to determine that you were gay at the age of 12. Did you start having sex at that age, or what?

Just curious.
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Drinks all around!
tngirl

Thanks for the reminder. A toast:
To Change and those who bring it.
To lovers because they're more fun to be around than haters.
To Leolo and his soulmate.


Hear hear!!!

Congratulations, Leolo. May you enjoy many more wonderful years together.
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Congratulations on getting married, however, I'm interested in how you were able to determine that you were gay at the age of 12. Did you start having sex at that age, or what?

My guess is he noticed he was attracted to boys and not girls, as many of his male friends seemed to be. Do you really think you have to have sex before you can determine if you're gay? Were you completely unsure of whether you were gay or straight until you lost your virginity?

Just curious.
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Committing yourselves to each other is great, but I don't think any minister that would marry two men together has the authority to make it last for eternity...
SB


Errr - just a little Christian Bible refresher course for you:

NONE of our marriages will last for eternity. Nor does ANY minister have the authority to make it so. In Heaven there is no marriage or giving in marriage.

Mark 12:25
"For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. "

I realize that this won't change your view of homosexuality and whether or not God approves. But that's between them and God. Even if you could miraculously change his sexual orientation to something you feel more appropriate, he's still not a "Christian" by any rulebook you believe in.

So either he's right, and his afterlife will not be ruined by his sexual practices. Or you're right, and sex is the least of his problems because he's doomed to hell for not following God.

So unless you'd like to convert him completely you might as well let him live his life his own way, since changing this specific thing won't help the status of his soul.

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Much hairier from a legal standpoint will be what happens when legal same-sex marriages occur in Massachusetts, as it appears they will. The Internal Revenue Code says that your marital status is determined under state law. DOMA says that Federal law will not recognize same-sex marriages. We seem to have a conflict, which is why there are gaboodles of lawsuits to come.

Phil


_____

Here's what I think will happen when it gets to the courts:

--DOMA will "trump" state laws conflicting with it, under the U.S. Constitution's Supremacy Clause--UNLESS the Supreme Court decides that U.S. Congress did not have constitutional authority to pass the DOMA, i.e., regulation of marriages is a purely state activity.

Does anyone know if DOMA was enacted under the authority of the Interstate Commerce Clause, or what? This might be a toughie for the Supreme Court, which has diminished the power of Congress to pass laws under the Commerce Clause, yet would seem to be against gay marriage.
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Oh, I should have added this to the bottom of my post.

I am NOT against this marriage. I was merely trying to speak the same language as the post I was replying to.
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Congratulations. May you and your spouse have 6 X 12 more happy years together.

Health, wealth and love -- and the time to enjoy them.
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(I thought I heard my name.) The thing about gay marriage is that there's no possible nucleus to legally protect, as there is with a male and female who might produce a nuclear family.

For example, being beyond child-bearing age, I see no reason to get married now. In other words, a certificate and a ceremony simply don't have the impact that they did when the future held the possibility of a long line of progeny.

If one attaches legitimacy of the relationship to a certificate and a ceremony, that's another thing. If the gay couple plans to adopt children, then there's probably a need for a certificate to declare the legitimacy of the unit, much as when M/F marry.



Hang on one minute here!!!!!

I am straight, of childbearing age, have been with my husband for almost 16 years (since I was 17) and we have no children. And that IS by choice, not because of infertility.

Are you saying *I* have no reason to be married?!?

Back off, sister!
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Congratulations, Leolo!

I hope you two will be very happy for years and years to come. Being married is the best thing that has ever happened to me, and I hope it works that way for you both, too. Neither Kathie nor I feel in any way threatened by your happiness, of course.

God's blessings on you both!
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Congratulations on getting married, however, I'm interested in how you were able to determine that you were gay at the age of 12. Did you start having sex at that age, or what?

-----

My guess is he noticed he was attracted to boys and not girls, as many of his male friends seemed to be. Do you really think you have to have sex before you can determine if you're gay? Were you completely unsure of whether you were gay or straight until you lost your virginity?

Just curious.


-----

Actually, my assumption was that he was "turned out" by a predatory male at least several years older than he. But, unlike you, I didn't want to "guess". That's why I asked the question.
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>
> So what is your filing status for taxes?
>

Sweet Jesus, Cattleman, can you give ANYone any reason at all how this might be any of your business?

Can't you back off a notch and just wish the man well on the—I'm sorry, on teh—happiest day of his life?

Why is it that the farther Right people go, the more miserable they must become?
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Hang on one minute here!!!!!

I am straight, of childbearing age, have been with my husband for almost 16 years (since I was 17) and we have no children. And that IS by choice, not because of infertility.

Are you saying *I* have no reason to be married?!?

Back off, sister!


-----

O.K., you are normal, healthy, fertile, presumably happily married, age 32-33.

Prediction: While you may have "chosen" so far not to be a parent, within the next 5 - 7 years, your urge to have children will become overwhelming. And you should have children.
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>
> So what is your filing status for taxes?
>
____
Sweet Jesus, Cattleman, can you give ANYone any reason at all how this might be any of your business?

____

Um...because he was responding to a post in which the poster deliberately MADE it everyone's business?
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Hang on one minute here!!!!!

I am straight, of childbearing age, have been with my husband for almost 16 years (since I was 17) and we have no children. And that IS by choice, not because of infertility.

Are you saying *I* have no reason to be married?!?


That's exactly what he (they) are saying.
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O.K., you are normal, healthy, fertile, presumably happily married, age 32-33.

Prediction: While you may have "chosen" so far not to be a parent, within the next 5 - 7 years, your urge to have children will become overwhelming. And you should have children.


Yes, I am a normal, healthy, fertile, happily married, age 33.

I will NOT choose to have children. And if I did, I would have to get divorced to do so, as DH (40, normal, healthy) wants children much less than I do.

I should NOT have children. My list of "should-do's" is determined only by ME. It includes keeping my marriage healthy, saving for retirement, etc. And not ruining some child's life by bringing them into a home where they are not completely wanted by both parents.

Please don't make predictions of what I will have an urge to do, based on what your life has been like. This post (gay marriage) highlights quite clearly that not all people have the same urges. The OP will not have some sudden urge to leave his partner and enter a straight marriage. I will not have some sudden overwhelming urge to raise children. (Will I occasionally wonder what it would be like if I had children? Yes. Sometimes I do. But finding that 2 cats are sometimes too much for me to handle, I have overcome those urges very quickly and thoroughly. I am not parent material, though I make a tolerable Aunt.)

I appreciate that you are trying to warn me based on your own experiences. But please believe me, they don't apply here.
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Hang on one minute here!!!!!

I am straight, of childbearing age, have been with my husband for almost 16 years (since I was 17) and we have no children. And that IS by choice, not because of infertility.

Are you saying *I* have no reason to be married?!?

That's exactly what he (they) are saying.


Yes, so it seems. Are you agreeing or simply clarifying?
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>
> Some people don't like the cattlemans brand of fairness.
>

Bigoted™ Brand Fairness: Look for it at an offshore-owned corporation filled with illegal immigrants near you!
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Hang on one minute here!!!!!

I am straight, of childbearing age, have been with my husband for almost 16 years (since I was 17) and we have no children. And that IS by choice, not because of infertility.

Are you saying *I* have no reason to be married?!?

Back off, sister!


Try not to read too much into what CC wrote. Imho, she's often much more reasonable than the rigid and narrow minded and genuinely interested in understanding what is "different" to her. She often responds well to concise straitforward discussion, but is sometimes a tad *ahem* blunt, and doesn't worry overly much about rubbing people the wrong way. (Is that fair CC?)

We who choose not to have children may not have a reason to be married other than our own desire to have the benefits of marriage. Our society is struggling with what benefits society should offer for committed pair bonding and also for breeding and brooding replacements.

1HF
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Try not to read too much into what CC wrote. Imho, she's often much more reasonable than the rigid and narrow minded and genuinely interested in understanding what is "different" to her. She often responds well to concise straitforward discussion, but is sometimes a tad *ahem* blunt, and doesn't worry overly much about rubbing people the wrong way. (Is that fair CC?)

We who choose not to have children may not have a reason to be married other than our own desire to have the benefits of marriage. Our society is struggling with what benefits society should offer for committed pair bonding and also for breeding and brooding replacements.

1HF


Okay, I suppose I could go back to my "mechanical" mode of debate. ;-) And you probably know me well enough by now to know that I'm not actually offended by her statement. I was simply throwing my personal situation in as one that isn't covered by her definition of the reasons for marriage. And including emotion (per the prior instructions I'd been given) as a way of showing the human side that people have claimed I lack in my writing style. Don't worry, 1HF, it takes more than a (IMO) poorly thought out generalization to make me dislike someone.

As far as the "benefits" of marriage, I married (as I suppose the OP did) as a public declaration that DH and I had chosen to stay together exclusively and eternally. All of the "benefits" are merely icing on the cake. Nice icing, to be sure, but icing none the less.
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As far as the "benefits" of marriage, I married (as I suppose the OP did) as a public declaration that DH and I had chosen to stay together exclusively and eternally. All of the "benefits" are merely icing on the cake. Nice icing, to be sure, but icing none the less.

Not me. I waited until I was pretty sure it didn't make a difference. As soon as I felt I was virtually married and as comitted as any peiece piece of paper was gonna make me, I made it legal to justify a big party and suck up a bunch of gifts. ;) Had to jumpstart my FIRE fund. <g>

1HF
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Yes, I am a normal, healthy, fertile, happily married, age 33.

I will NOT choose to have children. And if I did, I would have to get divorced to do so, as DH (40, normal, healthy) wants children much less than I do.

I should NOT have children. My list of "should-do's" is determined only by ME. It includes keeping my marriage healthy, saving for retirement, etc. And not ruining some child's life by bringing them into a home where they are not completely wanted by both parents.

Please don't make predictions of what I will have an urge to do, based on what your life has been like. This post (gay marriage) highlights quite clearly that not all people have the same urges. The OP will not have some sudden urge to leave his partner and enter a straight marriage. I will not have some sudden overwhelming urge to raise children. (Will I occasionally wonder what it would be like if I had children? Yes. Sometimes I do. But finding that 2 cats are sometimes too much for me to handle, I have overcome those urges very quickly and thoroughly. I am not parent material, though I make a tolerable Aunt.)

I appreciate that you are trying to warn me based on your own experiences. But please believe me, they don't apply here.


----

Well, your previous post struck me as a significant over-reaction.

I also presumed, but did not post, that the reason you did not have children was because your husband did not want them. Note, in my prior post, I pointedly said that you were "presumably" happily married. But I did not want you to take offense by my suggesting that your husband's lack of desire to have children was the "controlling" factor in your life. Since you have now confirmed that it is, however, that is now a moot issue.

Indeed, you say that your husband is so strongly opposed to children, that you would have to get "divorced" to have them. That's pretty darn unreasonable of him. You mean to tell me that no matter how badly you might want children, your husband would refuse to accomodate your wish? So, is it really you who "chooses" not to have children; or rather, are you simply afraid of the conflict it would generate in your relationship with your husband, were you to explore your feelings truthfully on the issue?

You are so conflicted, that you do not realize it. On the one hand, you state that you are not having children because your husband feels so strongly against it you would have to get divorced. Yet you also seem to think your "should-do's" "is determined only by ME."

The original issue, why are you married? It seems that if neither you nor your husband feels as if you are involved in a joint effort--he will have his strong feelings, what you do is determined "only by ME"--the question is clearly a legitimate one, which is why you over-reacted to it. Why ARE you married to this man?

My predictions on what you will feel (not what you will do) within the next 5-8 years are not based on "my" experience. They are based on what is normal in our society: women who feel child bearing is unimportant, until they reach the mid to late 30's, hear the biological clock ticking loudly, and suddenly realize that there is almost no more time if they ever want to have children. This is very common, why do you think you are an exception?

You need to expand your mind and expand your horizons. You are obviously very defensive, because a nerve has been hit. You are so repressed that you don't even want to contemplate that having children might be something that might appeal to you within the next 5 - 8 years.

Deny all you want, if you are "normal", as you claim, there is a very good chance you will experience what many other women have experience, even though you haven't "planned" it, and despite what your husband thinks he does or does not want.

You are better off hashing this out with yourself and your husband now, rather than wasting another several years because of your denial.

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I am straight, of childbearing age, have been with my husband for almost 16 years (since I was 17) and we have no children. And that IS by choice, not because of infertility. Are you saying *I* have no reason to be married?!?

I was speaking in a macro way, not each individual's personal choice. As 1HF pointed out, "society"--that is, the macro sentiment--is still working out what society should do to encourage pair bonding. Since the vast majority is straight, I don't think there's too much danger of the species dying out. I tend to think of homosexuals marrying the same way that inter-racial marriages were at one time discouraged; that is, society will just get used to it eventually.

What God thinks of it I really don't know, although some will point to Scripture for His response. I can't believe that God judges gays--who are allegedly only doing what comes as naturally to them as heterosexual behavior comes to straights--any more harshly than he would judge straights for their sexual behavior.

Ehhh, the world's goin' to Hell in a handbasket; what difference does it make? <kidding!>


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O.K., you are normal, healthy, fertile, presumably happily married, age 32-33. Prediction: While you may have "chosen" so far not to be a parent, within the next 5 - 7 years, your urge to have children will become overwhelming. And you should have children.


I really think participants on discussion boards should make greater use of the "editorial you," or use the word "one" instead, as in ...

OK, one is a normal, healthy, fertile, presumably happily married, age 32-33. Prediction: While one may have chosen so far not to be a parent, within the next 5-7 years, one's urge to have children will become overwhelming. And one should have children.

Then we wouldn't see responses like, "back off, sister!"

Just an observation.
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That's exactly what he (they) are saying.

Yes, so it seems. Are you agreeing or simply clarifying?

Clarifying.

Never had 'em, never will.
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Well, your previous post struck me as a significant over-reaction.

I also presumed, but did not post, that the reason you did not have children was because your husband did not want them. Note, in my prior post, I pointedly said that you were "presumably" happily married. But I did not want you to take offense by my suggesting that your husband's lack of desire to have children was the "controlling" factor in your life. Since you have now confirmed that it is, however, that is now a moot issue.

Indeed, you say that your husband is so strongly opposed to children, that you would have to get "divorced" to have them. That's pretty darn unreasonable of him. You mean to tell me that no matter how badly you might want children, your husband would refuse to accomodate your wish? So, is it really you who "chooses" not to have children; or rather, are you simply afraid of the conflict it would generate in your relationship with your husband, were you to explore your feelings truthfully on the issue?

You are so conflicted, that you do not realize it. On the one hand, you state that you are not having children because your husband feels so strongly against it you would have to get divorced. Yet you also seem to think your "should-do's" "is determined only by ME."

The original issue, why are you married? It seems that if neither you nor your husband feels as if you are involved in a joint effort--he will have his strong feelings, what you do is determined "only by ME"--the question is clearly a legitimate one, which is why you over-reacted to it. Why ARE you married to this man?

My predictions on what you will feel (not what you will do) within the next 5-8 years are not based on "my" experience. They are based on what is normal in our society: women who feel child bearing is unimportant, until they reach the mid to late 30's, hear the biological clock ticking loudly, and suddenly realize that there is almost no more time if they ever want to have children. This is very common, why do you think you are an exception?

You need to expand your mind and expand your horizons. You are obviously very defensive, because a nerve has been hit. You are so repressed that you don't even want to contemplate that having children might be something that might appeal to you within the next 5 - 8 years.

Deny all you want, if you are "normal", as you claim, there is a very good chance you will experience what many other women have experience, even though you haven't "planned" it, and despite what your husband thinks he does or does not want.

You are better off hashing this out with yourself and your husband now, rather than wasting another several years because of your denial.


Yikes! Boy, are you off base on this one.

I said that I don't want kids. That is true. And it is my decision.

I said that if I wanted kids I'd have to get a divorce because DH doesn't want kids. That doesn't mean that he is controlling my decision. I've already decided not to have kids. But if I wanted to have them, I would need to find another partner because he has made his decision also. The fact that we have each made the same decision does not constitute his "controlling" me. He has not "forced" me to not have kids. By the same token I would not force him to have them. That's not control, it is respect.

If I desperately wanted children, it would not change the fact that having them would make him miserable. And because he would be miserable, I would be unhappy. And because the child would be a source of contention in our household, and unwanted by one of his parents, the child would be unhappy. Therefore, in order to have a child, I would have to choose not to do it with my husband. But does that me that I couldn't have children? No, it is still my decision, I would simply have to change other things in my life to do it.

Why am I married? Because my husband and I love eachother, respect eachother and agree on most points of our life (including our decision not to have children).

And as far as "hashing things out with my husband now" - what would I discuss with him now that I wouldn't have already discussed in the prior 16 years? Some desire to have children (that you insist I must feel, but that I do not)?

If this sudden urge to have children is normal and common, as you claim it is, so be it. I will deal with that if it happens. It would be just as reasonable to say that it is normal and common to HAVE children before the age of 33 if one is already in a relationship (or even if one isn't). Perhaps I am abnormal and uncommon. Fine. Amazing how many more women every year are becoming abnormal and uncommon. And still manage to be perfectly happy with their lives.

As far as the rest of your intentionally inflamitory statements:
Quit trolling, please. It's annoying and pointless.
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I can't believe that God judges gays--who are allegedly only doing what comes as naturally to them as heterosexual behavior comes to straights--any more harshly than he would judge straights for their sexual behavior.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure he doesn't judge gay people any different. I'd be more worried about the whole "mortgage broker" thing. I'm sure there is a special section of hell for you guys. Good news is you probably won't have to wait in line for torture <g>.

2828

PS- say hi to munkeenutz (the lawyer) when you're there i think he's right next to your section.
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O.K., you are normal, healthy, fertile, presumably happily married, age 32-33. Prediction: While you may have "chosen" so far not to be a parent, within the next 5 - 7 years, your urge to have children will become overwhelming. And you should have children.


I really think participants on discussion boards should make greater use of the "editorial you," or use the word "one" instead, as in ...

OK, one is a normal, healthy, fertile, presumably happily married, age 32-33. Prediction: While one may have chosen so far not to be a parent, within the next 5-7 years, one's urge to have children will become overwhelming. And one should have children.

Then we wouldn't see responses like, "back off, sister!"

Just an observation

**********

In theory, Catherine, I agree with you; you are quite correct.

However, in this particular case, the particular post I was responding to, was a post that took unwarranted offense at something that you had posted. It seemed to me as if this person was reacting not to anything in your post, but rather out of her own oversensitivities, and your post apparently touched some pretty raw nerves, although there was really nothing in your post to cause such a reaction.

So, I was reacting to that overreaction. I specifically directed my post to the individual, because what I was trying to address was the source of the individual's overreaction to your post.

The bottom line is that it is obvious the young woman that we are talking about has some serious "issues" about her family situation--both her husband's attitude, and her feelings about children. Rather than contemplate a conflict, and possibly a divorce, with her husband, she has actually internalized her husband's apparent strong reluctance to have children. Yet, she doesn't even realize that's what she has done. She thinks that she doesn't want to have children herself, and not only that, THAT SHE NEVER WILL want to have children. When I pointed out that most "normal" women who are childless do face these issues when they approach their mid to late 30's, she got all bent out of shape.

Her defense against the internalization of her husband's reluctance to have children, is for her to claim that she is totally control of everything she does. Her husband doesn't control her; her biology doesn't control her; societal norms don't control her. Of course, such thoughts are fallacies and hence denial mechanisms.

It is obvious that if she knows her husband would "divorce" her if she insisted on having children, they must at some point in their relationship have had some rather heated discussions about the issue of having children or not.

And these are among the reasons that she clearly overreacted to your post. Yes, she needs to confront HER issues.
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Not me. I waited until I was pretty sure it didn't make a difference. As soon as I felt I was virtually married and as comitted as any peiece piece of paper was gonna make me, I made it legal to justify a big party and suck up a bunch of gifts. ;) Had to jumpstart my FIRE fund. <g>

1HF


Wow, I guess I did it wrong for sure!
We were together almost 6 years before we were married, but we skipped the big wedding thing. Just our parents, one best friend for each of us, and someone to perform the ceremony.

Dang, and we already had our 10 year anniversary or I could have rectified that.

Wonder if a 15 year "ReMarriage" ceremony would get us any good stuff? Or do I have to wait until 25 years now...
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2828

PS- say hi to munkeenutz (the lawyer) when you're there i think he's right next to your section.


*******

$%@#?! JAFO31 stole my seat.

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If you believe in the eternal aspect of marriage, what do you think God is going to say when you get up there and say you've been having sex with another man for the last 12 + however-long-you-stay-together years.

If marriage is eternal, than I would think God is already too busy trying to figure out what to do with the people who remarry after their first spouse passes away.
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Ignoring all the other garbage, let's clear up one thing at a time.

Please quote me correctly.

You said:
It is obvious that if she knows her husband would "divorce" her if she insisted on having children, they must at some point in their relationship have had some rather heated discussions about the issue of having children or not.

What I said was:
I would have to get divorced to do so

That does NOT mean he would divorce me. That means I would divorce him if I chose to take a path in my life that directly opposed his path.

Being a lawyer (as people seem to think you are) I'm surprised that you would not learn the importance of accuracy in your statements.

Again, being a lawyer, I should not be surprised that you have chosen to take a few statements and try to extrapolate an entire life-story, history, and psychological profile out of them, in an attempt to prove some case. You've evidently determined what you wish to present, and are now selectively twisting what I say to fit your predetermined point.

OTOH, I have trouble believing that you actually ARE a lawyer (though you may be studying to be one) as you would need a better grasp of linear logic than you seem to have. Or you are assuming that none of US understand linear logic.

In any case, please try to confine yourself to some sort of basic "If-Then" system, as your current method is giving you very inaccurate results.
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I'm sure he doesn't judge gay people any different. I'd be more worried about the whole "mortgage broker" thing. I'm sure there is a special section of hell for you guys. Good news is you probably won't have to wait in line for torture <g>.

Pardon me, but I think you're being rude. What I do for a living has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. What is it YOU do for a living, so monkeynutz and I can likewise insult you?
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O.K., you are normal, healthy, fertile, presumably happily married, age 32-33.

Prediction: While you may have "chosen" so far not to be a parent, within the next 5 - 7 years, your urge to have children will become overwhelming. And you should have children.


**snort**

Easy thing for a man to say.

Not every woman wants to or should have children. If she doesn't want to have children, that's between her and her husband.
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When I pointed out that most "normal" women who are childless do face these issues when they approach their mid to late 30's, she got all bent out of shape.

Without referencing any particular poster, but to just continue discussing the concept, I believe you're right. Prior to my son being born, my husband and I had some knock-down drag-out fights over this issue. When our child arrived, through absolutely no coercion whatsoever, my husband was immediately smitten and went around acting like he conceived not only our child, but the idea! Grrrr...

Just goes to show you how strong the urge to procreate really is in the majority of--but certainly not all--people.
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**snort**

Easy thing for a man to say.

Not every woman wants to or should have children. If she doesn't want to have children, that's between her and her husband.


Thank you.
:-D
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O.K., you are normal, healthy, fertile, presumably happily married, age 32-33.

Prediction: While you may have "chosen" so far not to be a parent, within the next 5 - 7 years, your urge to have children will become overwhelming. And you should have children.
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**snort**

Easy thing for a man to say.

Not every woman wants to or should have children. If she doesn't want to have children, that's between her and her husband.


Any man (who insists that woman should reproduce) should first have a watermelon shoved up his butt.
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wish the man well on the—I'm sorry, on teh—happiest day of his life?

?

sydsydsyd
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Prediction: While you may have "chosen" so far not to be a parent, within the next 5 - 7 years, your urge to have children will become overwhelming. And you should have children.

I am 35 and child-free. I hate children. Do you think that I should have some?

sydsydsyd
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Pardon me, but I think you're being rude. What I do for a living has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. What is it YOU do for a living, so monkeynutz and I can likewise insult you?
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First of all it is impossible to insult Monkeenutz unless you misspell his name. You can't rattle the guy, he's been in an all out brawl with 1HF, and even Art has thrown some daggers at him, and he still hangs in there. I didn't mean to offend you CC, i was just making light of the common stereotype of mortgage brokers being rat bastards only out for themselves and sticking people with the loans best suited for themselves making the most money. I've read your posts and i know you are not like that and have helped many homebuyers find the right loan for their needs. Saying that though, you must admit that mortgage brokers are probably one step above trial lawyers in the public eye.

2828
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I hate children.

No, but one may want to attempt to find out why this is so. Any other segment of society you hate? Dogs? Cats? Elderly people? Handicapped people? Mortgage brokers?
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Indeed, you say that your husband is so strongly opposed to children, that you would have to get "divorced" to have them. That's pretty darn unreasonable of him. You mean to tell me that no matter how badly you might want children, your husband would refuse to accomodate your wish?

Did it ever occur to you that most people discuss serious matters like this (whether or not children are wanted) before getting married, and if they had married with the understanding that no children were wanted, it would be "pretty darn unreasonable" for one of the parties to change his or her mind?

Do you really lack elementary common sense, or are you merely a jackass?

sydsydsyd
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Saying that though, you must admit that mortgage brokers are probably one step above trial lawyers in the public eye.

And, man, I have never been able to figure out why. Most of the MBs I know are hard-working, industrious, ethical people who would more often take a hit on their commission than ream a customer. I know I have, more times than I wish to remember.

Likewise, having worked for lawyers for 20 +/- years, I've never been able to figure out why they get such a bum rap, either. Some of the finest people I've ever known (and loved) have been lawyers.

Stereotypical thinking is just bad. You should avoid it.
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Any man (who insists that woman should reproduce) should first have a watermelon shoved up his butt.
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ogrecat,

You may want to check out a thread started by monkeenutz about a similar topic. It's titled "veggiesexuals"

2828
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My predictions on what you will feel (not what you will do) within the next 5-8 years are not based on "my" experience. They are based on what is normal in our society: women who feel child bearing is unimportant, until they reach the mid to late 30's, hear the biological clock ticking loudly, and suddenly realize that there is almost no more time if they ever want to have children. This is very common, why do you think you are an exception?


While I can appreciate the wisdom of your caution to her, I must tell you that your view seems inordinately narrow. There are women with strong maternal instincts who, for whatever reason, think it might not be wise for them to bring a child into the world. They do what plenty of people do every day--they overcome biological urge with rational thought.

It is really not so unusual. Plenty of men are faithful to their wives while separated, even if they have a biological desire to "mate" with another handy woman.

Women are capable of the same rational control over biological urges. There is nothing abnormal about a woman using intellect to overrule a feeling or desire.

- tmeri
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Did it ever occur to you that most people discuss serious matters like this (whether or not children are wanted) before getting married, and if they had married with the understanding that no children were wanted, it would be "pretty darn unreasonable" for one of the parties to change his or her mind?

When you take a position, do you hold it forever, regardless of further input or experience you may have? Some women--and even men--enter marriage thinking one thing, only to be pursuaded differently, and then they must deal with the fallout when the other party isn't going along with their new thinking. It can become a disasterously divisive thing. It's no one's fault; it just happens.
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Any man (who insists that woman should reproduce) should first have a watermelon shoved up his butt.

Nature has a way of helping a woman overcome the pain of said watermelon. I don't know how, but Nature knows; otherwise, none of us would be here.
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Nature has a way of helping a woman overcome the pain of said watermelon.

Uh, no.


I don't know how, but Nature knows; otherwise, none of us would be here.

No.

But what nature does do is cause the woman to forget the pain. Otherwise, no woman would have more than one.

- tmeri
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Yikes! Boy, are you off base on this one.

Possibly, but let's see if I can slide in under the tag.

I said that I don't want kids. That is true. And it is my decision.

Fine, as stated. But you didn't simply leave it at that:

I said that if I wanted kids I'd have to get a divorce because DH doesn't want kids.

Wait a second. You said you "don't want kids"; that's the end of the story, isn't it?

Why are you telling us what your husband feels about the matter? And why are you telling us that you would need to get "divorced" if you changed your mind about it? How could your husband's wishes possibly be relevant when you have already implied, and go on to say, that what your husband wants is IRrelevant? Why did you even have to discuss "divorce" with your husband, if you had already decided you did not want to have children? Indeed, why do you feel the need to imply your husband is the "bad guy" by indicating he would force you to get divorced in order to have children, when your initial claim was that you did not want children in the first place, anyway?

I'm curious: did your husband actually threaten to "divorce" you when you suggested having children to him? And how could you have ever even had this conversation, when you claim not to have wanted children, on your own, in the first place?

If you had said, "Honey, I don't want children," wouldn't he have simply said, "Great. I agree with that." Why did "divorce" creep into the conversation? That word usually doesn't come up in the absence of a conflict or significant disconnect.


That doesn't mean that he is controlling my decision. I've already decided not to have kids. But if I wanted to have them, I would need to find another partner because he has made his decision also.

Excuse me, you don't feel that a threat to divorce you if you should happen to change your mind on the issue, represents an attempt to exert some degree of control, or coercion, over you? A loving husband might try to persuade you not to have children; he would never threaten you with divorce simply for entertaining the possibility. It might not represent actual control over you; but if not, your husband's threat to divorce you certainly represents an effort on his part to exercise coercive control over you.

The fact that we have each made the same decision does not constitute his "controlling" me.

Well, you didn't say that you had threatened him with divorce if he refused to have children. You implied that he threatened you with divorce if you indicated a desire to have children. So who brought up divorce, you or your husband? Again, if both of you were in complete agreement on this issue from the get-go, why would "divorce" have even come up?

He has not "forced" me to not have kids.

No, but you apparently think if you should happen in the future to change your mind about the issue, it would result in his divorcing you.

If someone tries to blackmail me not to do something, even if I hadn't intended to do so in the first place, it is still blackmail.


By the same token I would not force him to have them. That's not control, it is respect.

No, it's neither "control" nor "respect": rather, it's your psychological defense mechanism so you can tell yourself the balance of power in the relationship is "even." Why would you talk about NOT forcing your husband to have children, if you didn't want to in the first place? If you don't want to have children in the first place--as you had claimed--then you get no medals for "not forcing your husband" to have children. You only get a medal if you did want to have children, but out of deference to your husband, did not force him to.

It's interesting that you characterize the relationship entirely in the negative--he would "divorce" me, I would "not force him to have them,", etc. Your prior post indicates that you alone control your actions, etc. Nowhere do you give any sense that your relationship and decision making with your husband is cooperative or by consensus or with mutual respect. It is all about threat, force or lack thereof, and "I, I, I."

If my wife said she did or did not want children--or any other serious issue in the marriage--I would never tell her that if we disagreed about it, it would mean a divorce. That's an ultimatum. I would express my feelings, and we would work out a mutually-agreeable answer. Indeed, the sign of a good relationship is where EACH partner is willing to sacrifice their own desires for the other partner.


If I desperately wanted children, it would not change the fact that having them would make him miserable.

Why do you now contemplate "desperately" wanting to have children? I thought it was a non-issue for you. How could you be so sure that having them would make him "miserable"? He might think so, and he might be right; but how can you be so certain about it? Is your husband some kind of strange ogre who obviously would be a terrible father? If so, why did you marry a man like that?

Did it ever occur to you that if you insisted, he might change his mind? Bluffs can be called. Many men are afraid to be fathers,because of the responsibility involved; but when it happens, they turn out just fine.

And because he would be miserable, I would be unhappy.

Oh, you would be unhappy because he would be miserable? You wouldn't be unhappy because he wasn't a good father, or that he was immature? I thought you said no one controls you or your decisions. But, as I suspected, you're subject to emotional/psychological coercion by your husband, and here, you have frankly admitted it



And because the child would be a source of contention in our household, and unwanted by one of his parents, the child would be unhappy.

Oh, I see--the child would be the source of contention, not your disfunctional relationship with your husband? How could the child possibly be considered to be the "source of contention" in your household, under those circumstances? The child didn't have you; you and your husband created the child. And, you and your husband would be sure the child was unhappy? You wouldn't do your best to act maturely and raise the child to be a happy child?

Therefore, in order to have a child, I would have to choose not to do it with my husband. But does that me that I couldn't have children? No, it is still my decision, I would simply have to change other things in my life to do it.<i/>

Again, why are you spending so much effort telling us that you could have children if you wanted to--even if that meant divorcing your husband--if you don't in fact want them?

Why am I married? Because my husband and I love each other, respect each other and agree on most points of our life (including our decision not to have children).

If you loved and respected each other, divorce would not be an issue which you keep injecting into this. You did not make a mutual decision not to have children. Your husband told you he would divorce you if you wanted to have children; and apparently, you decided not to have children independently of him, because no one "controls" you.

And as far as "hashing things out with my husband now" - what would I discuss with him now that I wouldn't have already discussed in the prior 16 years? Some desire to have children (that you insist I must feel, but that I do not)?


Me thinks thou dost protest too much.


If this sudden urge to have children is normal and common, as you claim it is, so be it. I will deal with that if it happens.

You've never heard of the "biological clock" that women have? Did you ever see the movie, "My Cousin Vinnie"? Do you think I'm making it up?

It would be just as reasonable to say that it is normal and common to HAVE children before the age of 33 if one is already in a relationship (or even if one isn't).

It is.

Perhaps I am abnormal and uncommon. Fine.

You said so, not me.

Amazing how many more women every year are becoming abnormal and uncommon.

Again, if you say so; I wouldn't know.


And still manage to be perfectly happy with their lives.

Are you sure?

As far as the rest of your intentionally inflamitory statements:
Quit trolling, please. It's annoying and pointless.



Why did you overreact to CatherineCoy's post in the first place?
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When you take a position, do you hold it forever, regardless of further input or experience you may have? Some women--and even men--enter marriage thinking one thing, only to be pursuaded differently, and then they must deal with the fallout when the other party isn't going along with their new thinking. It can become a disasterously divisive thing. It's no one's fault; it just happens.


Yes, people do change their mind. And should then discuss their new feelings with their partner.

However, the assumption seems to be that my decision of whether or not to have children should be the prevailing one, regardless of my husband's decision. Since we're in agreement on this, it isn't currently a problem. But let's say that in 5 years I DO change my mind. Is it then his responsibility to change his? Or to "go along" simply to accomodate my new views? Is his lifetime desire to be child-free less respected than some new desire I would have to reproduce?

Why is it assumed that HE would have to change his position?
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No, but one may want to attempt to find out why this is so. Any other segment of society you hate? Dogs? Cats? Elderly people? Handicapped people? Mortgage brokers?

Mortgage brokers, yes. No to the rest. Why I hate children is hardly germane to the question, but the fact that the average cat is more intelligent is part of it.

You seem to suffer from the same impairment that causes Monkeynuts not to be able to follow simple "if-then" scenarios. Let's try again, more explicitly this time. "If I hate children, do you still think that I should have some?" Observe carefully that "why do you hate children?" is not a suitable reply to this yes/no question.

sydsydsyd
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But what nature does do is cause the woman to forget the pain.

Oh, sorry...I meant to say, "forget," not "overcome." Sorry...so sorry...mea culpa and all that. You know best...you're a man (IIRC)...a doctor (IIRC), even. What do I know? Sorry...sorry...

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And, man, I have never been able to figure out why. Most of the MBs I know are hard-working, industrious, ethical people who would more often take a hit on their commission than ream a customer. I know I have, more times than I wish to remember.

Likewise, having worked for lawyers for 20 +/- years, I've never been able to figure out why they get such a bum rap, either. Some of the finest people I've ever known (and loved) have been lawyers.

Stereotypical thinking is just bad. You should avoid it.
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I've had one experience with a mortgage broker and it was a bad one. I told him that i wanted a 15 year loan with a three year arm (IIRC) because i knew i was going to pay it off in 3 years. After all the paperwork was done i found out i was in a 30 year loan. I told him i wanted it 15 years and he said,"if you're gonna pay it off in 3 years it aint gonna make a big difference". I've had many experiences with lawyers. Out of 5 or 6 i've had, i'd say 1 was good. There's your stereotype and the jokes perpetuated against lawyers tells me that lots of people agree. There aren't that many mortgage broker jokes but i hear derogatory stuff on occasion.

2828
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