Message Font: Serif | Sans-Serif
 
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (46) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 445606  
Subject: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/22/2004 6:00 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Well, not really. But I do miss amusing myself by arguing with theists.

In fact, I've recently taken up arguing at the forums on Michael Newdow's site.
http://www.restorethepledge.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2

This was kind of a fun thread. Christians were arguing that Hitler couldn't possibly be forgiven and I was playing Christ's advocate by throwing standard apologetics at them about how everybody sins.
http://www.restorethepledge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1741&start=15
Print the post Back To Top
Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112298 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/22/2004 6:07 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
<iWell, not really. But I do miss amusing myself by arguing with theists.

In fact, I've recently taken up arguing at the forums on Michael Newdow's site.
http://www.restorethepledge.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2

So, why you don't patronize this one more?

http://boards.fool.com/Messages.asp?mid=20926399&bid=116057

cliff

Print the post Back To Top
Author: juliewinter Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112327 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/22/2004 11:07 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I, too, am completely fascinated by the idea of forgiveness. Hitler aside, are there people who simply can't be forgiven?

JW

Print the post Back To Top
Author: tedhimself Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112328 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/22/2004 11:20 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
Hitler aside, are there people who simply can't be forgiven?

Clinton. Just listen to any conservative radio host.


Print the post Back To Top
Author: juliewinter Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112329 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/22/2004 11:27 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Clinton. Just listen to any conservative radio host.
____
True. Their hatred is certainly focused, isnt' it?
But I was thinking more of the personal--the person who has done harm to you. How can you forgive them? Must you forgive them? What is and what isn't unforgiveable? And is there a difference: can you forgive yet not forget?

JW

Print the post Back To Top
Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112330 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/22/2004 11:42 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
True. Their hatred is certainly focused, isn't' it?
But I was thinking more of the personal--the person who has done harm to you. How can you forgive them? Must you forgive them? What is and what isn't unforgivable? And is there a difference: can you forgive yet not forget?

JW


Forgiveness is perhaps the most misunderstood concept there is.

Forgiveness occurs within your own durn self. The opposite of forgiveness is "holding a grudge". That grudge doesn't affect (AM ;o)) the subject of your grudge one little bit- never did.

You can still go after them legally, physically, and every other lly but you can still forgive them.

When you forgive, what you're saying is that you have given up your negative emotions that tear at your heart wrt their transgression. You have effectively placed their actions into a realm not of emotion, but of historical fact. Their transgression no longer can haunt you, because it has ceased to recur in your memory as though it just happened. It's affect on you is nil.

But, you can still exact compensation.

Look at it from the other side- if one seeks forgiveness, they are instructed to offer what might make amends. Forgiveness doesn't settle the issue. It only releases the one that was hurt from future psychological damage.

If one wishes to be free of psychological issues, then one must be willing to forgive.

JMHO

k


Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: JavaTraveler Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112333 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 8:39 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Hitler aside, are there people who simply can't be forgiven?



My ex-brother-in-law. He is evil, and has not paid child support in 7 years.

Charlie

Print the post Back To Top
Author: andryia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112334 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 8:43 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I, too, am completely fascinated by the idea of forgiveness. Hitler aside, are there people who simply can't be forgiven?

I think God would forgive even Hitler if he had repented. Who knows? Maybe he did. The apostle Paul killed people before he converted--nowhere near 6 million, but I don't think the degree of sin has anything to do with forgiveness.

Here's how my pastor puts it: if your sin is so bad that God can't forgive you, then you are more powerful than God. I don't think even Hitler would make that claim. :-)

Andrea

Print the post Back To Top
Author: andryia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112335 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 8:47 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Well, not really. But I do miss amusing myself by arguing with theists.

I agree with Cliff. Come on over to the Theist/Atheist dialogs. You and Cliff can argue with madmikeyd and me, along with whoever else might drop in. I sort of enjoy arguing when I know I won't be annoying anyone. Unfortunately, arguing here or on CF tends to annoy people.

Andrea

Print the post Back To Top
Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112339 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 8:59 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I, too, am completely fascinated by the idea of forgiveness. Hitler aside, are there people who simply can't be forgiven?

JW





Yes.
Anyone who would harm one of the people dear to me.

AM

Print the post Back To Top
Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112340 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 9:00 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Hitler aside, are there people who simply can't be forgiven?

Clinton. Just listen to any conservative radio host.







This is only because they are so jealous of the man they can hardly sit still in their seats when they hear his name.

AM

Print the post Back To Top
Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112341 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 9:06 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Forgiveness occurs within your own durn self. The opposite of forgiveness is "holding a grudge". That grudge doesn't affect (AM ;o)) the subject of your grudge one little bit- never did.

You can still go after them legally, physically, and every other lly but you can still forgive them.

When you forgive, what you're saying is that you have given up your negative emotions that tear at your heart wrt their transgression. You have effectively placed their actions into a realm not of emotion, but of historical fact. Their transgression no longer can haunt you, because it has ceased to recur in your memory as though it just happened. It's affect on you is nil.

But, you can still exact compensation.

Look at it from the other side- if one seeks forgiveness, they are instructed to offer what might make amends. Forgiveness doesn't settle the issue. It only releases the one that was hurt from future psychological damage.

If one wishes to be free of psychological issues, then one must be willing to forgive.

JMHO

k





O, bullpooky, k!
You don't have to forgive them.
You can simply erase them -- like they never existed. Like they don't exist. You see them on the street? No. Not even if they are standing next to you. They are simply not there. You look through them. They are nothing. They are less than nothing. Believe me, few punishments are more devastating to the guilty. And you are free because there is no one there to hold a grudge against.

AM

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: dcarper Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112343 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 9:43 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
But I was thinking more of the personal--the person who has done harm to you. How can you forgive them? Must you forgive them? What is and what isn't unforgiveable? And is there a difference: can you forgive yet not forget?

On a personal level, if someone has hurt me, and shows no remorse for having done so, I feel no inclination to forgive them.
Not that I hold a grudge or want revenge; I just prefer to ignore them.

David

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Kazim Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112348 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 10:27 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
I think God would forgive even Hitler if he had repented. Who knows? Maybe he did. The apostle Paul killed people before he converted--nowhere near 6 million, but I don't think the degree of sin has anything to do with forgiveness.

I guess I don't so much have a problem with that, although it must make some awfully awkward conversations in heaven.

Jew: "Hey, you're Hitler! They let YOU in? The last time I saw you, you were standing over my charred body and laughing!"
Adolph: "Oh yeah, small world, isn't it? How about that."

The only reason I even bring it up is because I've often heard Hank the Bible Answer Man and others say something like this: "Of course there must be a heaven and hell. Otherwise, Hitler would receive no punishment for his crimes, and he just died in the arms of his mistress and got away with it all. Where's the justice in that?"

I merely wish to point out to those people that IF Christianity is correct and IF Hitler accepted Jesus Christ, then he may be in heaven right now, while many of the Jews he persecuted may be in hell.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: andryia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112352 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 10:54 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I merely wish to point out to those people that IF Christianity is correct and IF Hitler accepted Jesus Christ, then he may be in heaven right now, while many of the Jews he persecuted may be in hell.

Yeah, something like that. However, I should also point out that a person can become so hardened that repentance becomes, if not impossible, then at least very unlikely. I'll spare you the quotes, but hardness, invulnerability, and pride are major themes throughout the New Testament. While sin is initially what separates us from God, the other things are what keep us separated (at least according to various NT writers).

Hitler's life showed hardness and pride to the Nth degree. I suppose it's possible that he had a deathbed conversion, but it would have been very hard for him to do so. I think that's one reason why Jesus had no problem attracting prostitutes, lepers, and embezzlers (tax collectors) among his followers, but was rejected by the current religious establishment. The former came in humility and knew their need for God, while the latter were too proud of their "righteousness" to see how ugly they really were.

Andrea

Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112353 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 10:54 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0

The only reason I even bring it up is because I've often heard Hank the Bible Answer Man and others say something like this: "Of course there must be a heaven and hell. Otherwise, Hitler would receive no punishment for his crimes, and he just died in the arms of his mistress and got away with it all. Where's the justice in that?"


i recall from Catechism, one of the kids asked Sister Something: "Is Hitler in Hell?"

She said, "No one knows. Only god can know, but I suspect he's *still* in purgatory."

i think in her theology the only people actually in hell were children who died while
having impure thoughts.



-j

Print the post Back To Top
Author: alchook Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112355 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 10:59 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Forgiveness is perhaps the most misunderstood concept there is.

Apparently.

I was reading an article advocating third-world debt forgiveness. I must say, until I read your post I assumed they meant something completely different.


Print the post Back To Top
Author: andryia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112360 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 11:21 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
You can still go after them legally, physically, and every other lly but you can still forgive them.

?????????

I always thought forgiveness was relinquishing your right to get even. In the parable of the ungrateful servant, the king forgave his servant an enormous debt, but that same servant turned around and had his neighbor imprisoned over a small debt. The king found out and was furious. It was not an emotional issue. His actions showed that he had not forgiven his neighbor.

Andrea

Print the post Back To Top
Author: going2win Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112362 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 11:25 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
The king found out and was furious. It was not an emotional issue. His actions showed that he had not forgiven his neighbor.

Andrea


Sounds to me like an emotional issue. Why should the king care whether the servant forgave his neighbor ? Was the king's forgiveness conditional based upon whether the servant forgave his neighbor. Sounds like a pretty petty king, wouldn't you say ?

g2w



Print the post Back To Top
Author: andryia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112363 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 11:30 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
Sounds to me like an emotional issue. Why should the king care whether the servant forgave his neighbor ? Was the king's forgiveness conditional based upon whether the servant forgave his neighbor. Sounds like a pretty petty king, wouldn't you say ?

The king was angry because of the servant's sheer ingratitude and the fact that he didn't learn anything from the experience. Rather than "pay it forward," the servant took advantage of the king's mercy while showing none of his own.

Sort of like some politicians who got a second chance despite their own "youthful indiscretions," but now want to throw the book at people who do the same things. Hypocrisy is quite disgusting, even to a casual bystander.

Andrea

Print the post Back To Top
Author: going2win Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112365 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 11:35 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
The king was angry because of the servant's sheer ingratitude and the fact that he didn't learn anything from the experience. Rather than "pay it forward," the servant took advantage of the king's mercy while showing none of his own.

So, is this King like your god ? Your god gets angry because one of his subjects didn't learn anything from god's magnificent beneficence ? Sounds like a petty god to me.

g2w



Print the post Back To Top
Author: andryia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112370 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 11:48 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
So, is this King like your god ? Your god gets angry because one of his subjects didn't learn anything from god's magnificent beneficence ? Sounds like a petty god to me.

I don't undersand. Do you think it would be petty for God to get angry about anything people do, or just things that seem trivial to you?

Andrea


Print the post Back To Top
Author: going2win Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112371 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 11:52 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Do you think it would be petty for God to get angry about anything people do, or just things that seem trivial to you?

Andrea


I think it would not be petty if a god got angry about Hitler killing 6 million Jews. But it is petty to get angry because someone hasn't "learned their lesson."

g2w




Print the post Back To Top
Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112376 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 12:35 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
O, bullpooky, k!
You don't have to forgive them.
You can simply erase them -- like they never existed. Like they don't exist. You see them on the street? No. Not even if they are standing next to you. They are simply not there. You look through them. They are nothing. They are less than nothing. Believe me, few punishments are more devastating to the guilty. And you are free because there is no one there to hold a grudge against.

AM


Maybe. To me, it would be a burden to "punish" someone in this way.

k

Print the post Back To Top
Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112377 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 12:41 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Forgiveness is perhaps the most misunderstood concept there is.

Apparently.

I was reading an article advocating third-world debt forgiveness. I must say, until I read your post I assumed they meant something completely different.


Apples and Oranges.

The debt being forgiven is not a transgression towards us, it is an agreement that we're considering calling "even". From the post I responded to, I thought a different forgiveness was the topic.

k


Print the post Back To Top
Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112378 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 12:44 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I always thought forgiveness was relinquishing your right to get even. In the parable of the ungrateful servant, the king forgave his servant an enormous debt, but that same servant turned around and had his neighbor imprisoned over a small debt. The king found out and was furious. It was not an emotional issue. His actions showed that he had not forgiven his neighbor.

Andrea


Then, perhaps you, and Al, and AM are correct, and I'm the one working on the wrong definition of "forgiveness".

k (sounds VERY likely :o))


Print the post Back To Top
Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112381 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 12:47 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Aha.

1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : PARDON <forgive one's enemies>

I guess I was more talking about the second and you all were interested in the first- (except AM, come to think of it)

k


Print the post Back To Top
Author: alchook Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112382 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 12:48 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Apples and Oranges.

Both are relatively round, grow on trees, and are enjoyed as snacks. Oranges are juicier than apples. Apples are crunchier than oranges.

The debt being forgiven is not a transgression towards us, it is an agreement that we're considering calling "even". From the post I responded to, I thought a different forgiveness was the topic.

The debt being forgiven is not a transgression towards us, it is an agreement that we're considering calling "even". From the post I responded to, I thought a different forgiveness was the topic.

I get the impression that you're trying to change the definition of the word “forgiveness” to make it similar to the way Christians describe it when they want to pretend they believe the teachings of Jesus. I mean, I can certainly let go of a grudge without forgiving a transgressor.

You aren't backsliding on us, are you?


Print the post Back To Top
Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112384 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 12:53 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0

Sounds to me like an emotional issue. Why should the king care whether the servant forgave his neighbor ? Was the king's forgiveness conditional based upon whether the servant forgave his neighbor. Sounds like a pretty petty king, wouldn't you say ?

g2w




It came from the Bible, g2w. It doesn't have to make sense.

AM

Print the post Back To Top
Author: going2win Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112385 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 12:54 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
It came from the Bible, g2w. It doesn't have to make sense.

AM


You know it and I know it, but does Andrea know it ?

g2w


Print the post Back To Top
Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112388 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 12:56 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I get the impression that you're trying to change the definition of the word “forgiveness” to make it similar to the way Christians describe it when they want to pretend they believe the teachings of Jesus. I mean, I can certainly let go of a grudge without forgiving a transgressor.

You aren't backsliding on us, are you?


It would be impossible for me to backslide unless I developed amnesia. :o)

But, look at it this way-

If someone killed your loved one because they were driving drunk, and at the trial, you could see that they were really stoopid, but not malicious, you could perhaps forgive them (let go of your hatred for them personally) but still demand that they go to prison for their mistake.

Even if it were up to you whether they serve their time in jail, which it wouldn't be, there would be no reason to say, "No, I have forgiven this person, let them go." The doo doo head committed the crime and will do the time, but without your grudge against them.

k (not enough coffee yet this morning)


Print the post Back To Top
Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112391 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 1:02 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
O, bullpooky, k!
You don't have to forgive them.
You can simply erase them -- like they never existed. Like they don't exist. You see them on the street? No. Not even if they are standing next to you. They are simply not there. You look through them. They are nothing. They are less than nothing. Believe me, few punishments are more devastating to the guilty. And you are free because there is no one there to hold a grudge against.

AM

Maybe. To me, it would be a burden to "punish" someone in this way.

k




I don't see how. If they are "punished" they take it onto themselves. You would only be making them disappear from your life. You would be free of them so how could that be a burden?

AM

Print the post Back To Top
Author: alchook Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112392 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 1:03 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
If someone killed your loved one because they were driving drunk, and at the trial, you could see that they were really stoopid, but not malicious, you could perhaps forgive them (let go of your hatred for them personally) but still demand that they go to prison for their mistake.

I would be able to let go of hatred, but I wouldn't be willing to forgive.


Print the post Back To Top
Author: cevera1 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112397 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 1:31 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
You don't have to forgive them.
You can simply erase them -- like they never existed. Like they don't exist. You see them on the street? No. Not even if they are standing next to you. They are simply not there. You look through them. They are nothing. They are less than nothing. Believe me, few punishments are more devastating to the guilty. And you are free because there is no one there to hold a grudge against.


I don't know, AM. Putting them in your forever real life P-box sounds good, but is it realistic. If that person rides the same bus with you day in day out, you can 'pretend' that they don't exist, but the reality of the situation is that they are indeed standing right next to you. I would consider it more of an act or a decision to not acknowledge them...and would take some thought on a daily basis.

I can hold a pretty good grudge myself...... but have found that really accomplishes nothing. A friend of mine is much more cavalier about such events. He holds a grudge for about 10 minutes, during which he lets it all hang out. A good fist fight, or swift kick in the jewels and then he forgets about it. Like nothing ever happened.

Obviously, we all handle things different.

cliff



Print the post Back To Top
Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112398 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 1:52 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0

I don't know, AM. Putting them in your forever real life P-box sounds good, but is it realistic. If that person rides the same bus with you day in day out, you can 'pretend' that they don't exist, but the reality of the situation is that they are indeed standing right next to you. I would consider it more of an act or a decision to not acknowledge them...and would take some thought on a daily basis.

I can hold a pretty good grudge myself...... but have found that really accomplishes nothing. A friend of mine is much more cavalier about such events. He holds a grudge for about 10 minutes, during which he lets it all hang out. A good fist fight, or swift kick in the jewels and then he forgets about it. Like nothing ever happened.

Obviously, we all handle things different.

cliff



The lifetime-p-box is reserved for "special" people.
So far there are only 3 people in it. And they acted as a group so I p-boxed them as a group. I will not acknowledge them in any way. As far as I'm concerned they don't exist. Lucky for me I haven't seen them in years. Even if I did see them, I wouldn't see them.

Your description of holding a grudge for about 10 minutes more closely fits me in normal relationships. You have to really poop on me to get permanently p-boxed. :o)

AM

Print the post Back To Top
Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112401 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 2:52 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I would be able to let go of hatred, but I wouldn't be willing to forgive.

That's kinda what I'm saying. To me, and according to the second dictionary definition of forgive, letting go of the hatred is the lion's share of forgiving. The rest is just a statement- "I don't forgive you."

k (had more coffee now and realize I'm splitting hairs, but they are hairs, and they are being split)


Print the post Back To Top
Author: andryia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112417 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 4:03 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
It came from the Bible, g2w. It doesn't have to make sense.

AM


You know it and I know it, but does Andrea know it ?

g2w


LOL! I don't think the concept is all that bizarre. It would be like me declaring bankruptcy and being forgiven millions of dollars, then hiring a collection agent to squeeze $100 out of someone else. Hmmmm, political examples continue to come to mind, but I'll spare you that much.

As for it coming from the Bible. . .well, this thread began as a discussion of how Christians view God's forgiveness. Since you don't believe in God, I can see how the discussion would seem ridiculous or at least irrelevant to you. But for some reason Kazim, juliewinter, khalou, and perhaps alchook seem quite fascinated with the concept. So I felt it necessary to put on my "loyal opposition" hat and play along.

Andrea



Print the post Back To Top
Author: going2win Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112418 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 4:11 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
LOL!

I'm pleased to see that you got my little joke.

But for some reason Kazim, juliewinter, khalou, and perhaps alchook seem quite fascinated with the concept. So I felt it necessary to put on my "loyal opposition" hat and play along.

Andrea


I still think it is interesting to consider that the attributes we project upon our gods are more a mirror of ourselves than a example of divine wisdom and goodness, don't you ?

g2w





Print the post Back To Top
Author: andryia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112420 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 4:44 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I'm pleased to see that you got my little joke.

I could almost see the twinkle in your eye when I read it.

I still think it is interesting to consider that the attributes we project upon our gods are more a mirror of ourselves than a example of divine wisdom and goodness, don't you ?

Objection, your honor! Leading question! ;-)

Really, I'm not sure what I think about that. I have noticed, even among people of the same faith, that gentle and forgiving people tend to see God as gentle and forgiving, while harsh, vindictive people tend to see God as harsh and vindictive. And these folks are reading the same stuff about God. So in a sense, I think you have a point.

Andrea



Print the post Back To Top
Author: going2win Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112421 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 4:46 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Objection, your honor! Leading question! ;-)

I withdraw the question. The jury should disregard anything I've said for the last 15 minutes.

g2w



Print the post Back To Top
Author: alchook Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112430 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 5:55 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 12
That's kinda what I'm saying. To me, and according to the second dictionary definition of forgive, letting go of the hatred is the lion's share of forgiving. The rest is just a statement- "I don't forgive you."

k (had more coffee now and realize I'm splitting hairs, but they are hairs, and they are being split)


How about this?

I think it's possible to let go of hatred without ever forgiving. Say a woman hates her father for molesting her as a child. As she grows older she realizes that the hate is eating away at her and destroying her life. So she decides it's time to let it go. But she doesn't ever really forgive her father, in the sense that she never changes her opinion of him, and she certainly has no desire to have him back in her life.

Or maybe there are different degrees of forgiveness, rather than different types of forgiveness. When a person commits a transgression he takes on various debts. In the example of the drunk driver you gave, he faces an array of criminal and civil penalties. One of the penalties could be my undying enmity. So maybe I can release him from the last one, but in the case of the criminal penalty I may not have any options, as his debt is to society not me. And perhaps I can still seek restitution from him. In other words, I've forgiven him, but my forgiveness is neither complete nor unconditional.

As a personal example, as boys my older brother and I were very close, almost inseparable. We had a bit of a falling out when I was twelve, though. Mom had bought a box of fudgsicles, one for each of us kids. I really loved fudgsicles, and they were a rare treat in our household. I was saving mine for the weekend. But Saturday I walked into the kitchen to see my brother eating the last fudgsicle. I was pretty upset, told him so, words were spoken, accusations and insults exchanged. We stopped speaking for a while. It sounds silly now, of course, but you now how sibling fights can be.

Then about ten years ago I got a call from a woman. It turned out she was my brother's wife, and she phoned to say my brother was dying of pancreatic cancer and dearly wanted to see me again. So I talked to my brother. We realized that a fudgsicle was a pretty stupid reason to foul up a relationship, and we both had been asses for letting it get blown so out of proportion. I broke down and cried, and I told him that I was sorry for what had happened and I would fly out to California to see him, and how much I looked forward to meeting his wife and three children.

As I was about to hang up, I mentioned to him that even though it was long past the time when we should have buried the hatchet, I did think that, out of fairness, I would expect him to replace the fudgsicle he had taken from me. I'm no longer especially fond of fudgsicles, but I thought the gesture would be appropriate and allow me to save face, so to speak. Anyway, one thing led to another and I wound up slamming the phone down on him in anger.

In other words, I was prepared to forgive his transgression, but my forgiveness was not going to be absolute. That wasn't good enough for my brother, though, and as a result he went to the crematorium without us ever reconciling.

Interestingly, before I wrote this, I was talking about the subject of forgiveness with my old friend Ernie. I mentioned this story to him, and you know what? As it turned out it was Ernie, not my brother, who had eaten my fudgsicle! Is that irony or what?

As you can imagine, Ernie and I had a pretty good laugh over that one.


Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: andryia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112432 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 6:02 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
As you can imagine, Ernie and I had a pretty good laugh over that one.


You are seriously warped. And somewhat twisted.

Andrea


Print the post Back To Top
Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112435 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 8:09 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
As a personal example, as boys my older brother and I were very close, almost inseparable. We had a bit of a falling out when I was twelve, though. Mom had bought a box of fudgsicles, one for each of us kids. I really loved fudgsicles, and they were a rare treat in our household. I was saving mine for the weekend. But Saturday I walked into the kitchen to see my brother eating the last fudgsicle. I was pretty upset, told him so, words were spoken, accusations and insults exchanged. We stopped speaking for a while. It sounds silly now, of course, but you now how sibling fights can be.

I would have killed him, but only after I'd forgiven him.

k (apologies if this story was true- but I couldn't imagine that the last part could be- If so, please forgive me, but no killing)


Print the post Back To Top
Author: alchook Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112441 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/23/2004 11:34 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
apologies if this story was true- but I couldn't imagine that the last part could be

Are you calling me a liar?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 112458 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 6/24/2004 9:22 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Are you calling me a liar?

I'm reserving the idea. :o)

k

Print the post Back To Top
Author: feleck Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 116542 of 445606
Subject: Re: I miss the Goldrushs Date: 8/16/2004 10:59 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Why should the king care whether the servant forgave his neighbor ? Was the king's forgiveness conditional based upon whether the servant forgave his neighbor. Sounds like a pretty petty king, wouldn't you say ?

Depends on why the king forgave the debt.

If it was the once every seven year thing, where your supposed to forgive the debts of fellow practishioners of your religion - than I could see why he would be angry. After all, if the servant did not forgive his neighbor, than he wasn't following the same rules.

Personally, I like Passover. Every year your supposed to forgive everyone who has wronged you. Everyone. Period.

Print the post Back To Top
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (46) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Advertisement