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Author: FoolYap Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1976034  
Subject: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 7:36 PM
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I wonder how many of us would be as brave? I wonder if I would be? It would certainly give me pause, knowing that the voting booth might be targetted by a bomb or a sniper, or both. Those who voted today were very brave.

I know this election was not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I know many could not vote, though they might have wanted to. Sounds like the media has decided to report on the positives rather than those who died in violence. For once during this (sorry, just my opinion) horrible abomination of a war, I feel this is warranted.

I hope this is the beginning of, well, peace for Iraq. I know many more will die there before peace truly comes, if it comes. But I hope the symbolism of this event outlasts the week.

I hope that our troops come home soon.

I think George W. Bush is the worst American President in my lifetime, I think this war was wrong, I fear that it has irreparably damaged our image with moderate Arab countries, and I fear Iraq will be a quagmire for years to come and come to haunt us.

But I would be very happy to be wrong. Very.

--FY
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Author: skybluewater Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677413 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 7:46 PM
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I wonder how many of us would be as brave? I wonder if I would be? It would certainly give me pause, knowing that the voting booth might be targetted by a bomb or a sniper, or both. Those who voted today were very brave.

It is pretty amazing, especially when you consider that usually over 40% of Americans don't vote, despite having cars and easy access to safe polling locations.

Erik

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Author: M9Powell Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677414 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 7:47 PM
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"I think George W. Bush is the worst American President in my lifetime, I think this war was wrong, I fear that it has irreparably damaged our image with moderate Arab countries, and I fear Iraq will be a quagmire for years to come and come to haunt us.

But I would be very happy to be wrong. Very."

--FY

To have done nothing after the 11Sep attacks would have hurt our image much worse. I'm afraid the best we can do is hope the arabs respect & fear the power of the USA. Our ideology & theirs are to far apart for them to ever like us. If thats what it takes then thats what it takes. I think our response has been much to weak & delayed for us to have the full effect of this though. I'm not to thrilled with George junior either but probrably for different reasons than you though.M9


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Author: franchot Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677416 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 7:49 PM
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Foolyap,
I agree with you about the bravery of voters. I'm just watching the scenes on Hardball of Iraqis voting. They had an interview with an old guy who got up early to go and vote. He looked euphoric. Another guy said that he felt like he was flying above the sky. This is just the begining, not the end and time will tell whether this is going to pan out. The true test of democracy is believing that when your candidate loses, you support the right of the opposing guy to govern. The question remains what kind of government will emerge from this. Given the history of the persecution of the Kurds and Shias in the SH years, it is imperative that the gov ensures the protection of minority groups, like in Lebanon. I hope this does work, but judging by the scenes on the tv this does seem to be the triumph of optimism over pessimism. Good on them.

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Author: skybluewater Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677417 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 7:51 PM
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To have done nothing after the 11Sep attacks would have hurt our image much worse. I'm afraid the best we can do is hope the arabs respect & fear the power of the USA.

Good God, man, get a clue. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and the Iraq war has revealed how WEAK we are. Sure, we can Shock 'n Awe like no one else, but we don't have the manpower to pacify Iraq, much less Iran, North Korea, or Darfur.

Erik

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Author: M9Powell Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677426 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 8:10 PM
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"Good God, man, get a clue. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and the Iraq war has revealed how WEAK we are. Sure, we can Shock 'n Awe like no one else, but we don't have the manpower to pacify Iraq, much less Iran, North Korea, or Darfur."

Erik

I am not the clueless one here. I have served in the war on terriosim. I never said Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. But her neighbors did. Now those neighbors have a large US military presence on the border. Do you think the saudis want what happened in Iraq & Afganistan to replay in Riyadh. Personally I think we could have inflicted a lot more retriubition with a lot less loss of US troops if they weren't having to be politically correct. As for having the manpower we have it. But do we have the will to use it? I think there must be a few large Buildings in Saudi Arabia that they would hate to lose as much as we valued the world trade center. The timing should have coincided with time of maximum occupancy. I think the Saudis would understand Eye for an Eye in spades if it had been delivered quickly. M9


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Author: skybluewater Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677427 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 8:12 PM
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think there must be a few large Buildings in Saudi Arabia that they would hate to lose as much as we valued the world trade center. The timing should have coincided with time of maximum occupancy. I think the Saudis would understand Eye for an Eye in spades if it had been delivered quickly.

You're sick.

Erik

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Author: M9Powell Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677442 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 8:43 PM
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You're sick.

Erik


Did they wait untill the WTC was nearly empty, say at 2 AM? I'm sure this would have been less loss of life than has occured already & much more effective. M9

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Author: skybluewater Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677444 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 8:46 PM
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Did they wait untill the WTC was nearly empty, say at 2 AM? I'm sure this would have been less loss of life than has occured already & much more effective. M9

So your answer is to become terrorists ourselves?

Count me out.

Erik

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Author: M9Powell Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677448 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 8:55 PM
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"So your answer is to become terrorists ourselves?

Count me out."
Erik

Were we terroists when we launched the Dolittle raids on Japan in retribution for Pearl Harbor? We didn't start this war but we must finish it. What answer do you propose? Don't bore me with politically correct do-gooder drivel that will have no effect. M9

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Author: hartmanbirge Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677449 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 8:59 PM
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"I think George W. Bush is the worst American President in my lifetime, I think this war was wrong, I fear that it has irreparably damaged our image with moderate Arab countries, and I fear Iraq will be a quagmire for years to come and come to haunt us. But I would be very happy to be wrong."

How noble of you to cheer the Iraqis who voted....yet to be against the war. You can't have it both ways. Those same Iraqis whom you cheer would have been nothing but miserable subjects had Bush not done the great risk of Iraq. The risk to him personally. The risk to his reelection. The risk to our national prestige. And not to mention the risk that it may still fail. You need to make a decision. You're either on board or you're harping and finger pointing from the sidelines. If Gore wins four years ago none of this happens. Saddam still rules. The hope of democracy spreading across the ME is a pipe dream. And we're launching cruise missiles at pup tents. Bravo for your cheering.

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Author: FoolYap Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677454 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 9:21 PM
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How noble of you to cheer the Iraqis who voted....yet to be against the war. You can't have it both ways.

Sure you can.

Your reply is essentially, "You're either on board 100% with Bush, or you support the terrorists." That's crap. I salute the bravery of the Iraqis, and this war is an abomination. Many Iraqis are still "miserable subjects" now, and they're for sure not out of the soup yet.

This war did not need to be. Saddam was an evil bastard, and killed many thousands. But that's not what this war was sold to America as, was it? It was about "they aided those who were behind 9/11" (lie) and "we must strike them before they strike us with nukes" (lie).

I really don't understand your point of view. There are many evil bastards in the world, and we do nothing about them. We can do nothing about most of them. America's power is not infinite. I fear that Iraq will prove that, if it hasn't already done so.

Is this a good thing? Is spending $200+ billion dollars, losing over a thousand American lives, tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, maiming tens or hundreds of thousands of Americans and Iraqis, a country whose infrastructure is in ruins, and you are optimistic about what we have done?

Tell me, please, what price you are willing to pay to see this through to the end? 10,000 American lives and 100,000 Iraqis? 100,000 and 1,000,000? When the body count surpasses those Saddam killed, will it still be "worth it" to you?

The hope of democracy spreading across the ME is a pipe dream.

The hope of spreading democracy across the Middle East is a pipe dream. Even if Iraq does become a stable, peaceful democracy -- an "if" of gargantuan size -- neither of us will live to see the rest of the Middle East become democracies.

So, believing what I do, what the hell else can I do but salute the Iraqis who voted?? They are brave. And that doesn't change how I feel one whit about this !&@^$%@^%# war.

--FY

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Author: icesweeper Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677466 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 10:33 PM
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This war did not need to be. Saddam was an evil bastard, and killed many thousands.

I really don't understand your point of view. There are many evil bastards in the world, and we do nothing about them

Wow, all in one place. Para A says we had no business fighting this war because the only (good) reason is Saddam was evil. But then, para B says there are many evil bastards and we do nothing (yet).

So, which is it? We should attack evil bastards and we're bad because we haven't or we shouldn't but in this case we did, so we're bad.



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Author: rupeh Big red star, 1000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677471 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 10:56 PM
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<< Good God, man, get a clue. >>

I think he was 100% right and that it's you that aren't thinking straight. We did have to do something and that thing was to go into Afghanistan and Iraq and show that we are not a bunch of pushovers. Being pushovers and not responding with force (all throughout the '90s) is what resulted in the growth of islamic terrorism, 9/11 and a dozen other terrorist attacks around the world.

<< Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 >>

Yes it did. Not directly (as in ordering the attack), but indirectly. Any country that supported Islamic terrorists had something to do with 9/11. Telling these countries that we will no longer tolerate their support of terror and then following up with force when they refuse to change is exactly what we needed to do.

<< and the Iraq war has revealed how WEAK we are. Sure, we can Shock 'n Awe like no one else, but we don't have the manpower to pacify Iraq, much less Iran, North Korea, or Darfur. >>

How weak we are? They lose 1000 people for every 1 we lose and you think we are weak? You acknowledge our ability to shock and awe, but you don't see the strength of our air power that is behind it? Right now we are fighting almost all of the terrorists that the middle east can muster up. They are pooring into Iraq and we are putting them down.

If I was a country that supported terrorism, I'd be a bit worried right now. That's exactly how we want them. We don't want to face additional battles, but we need to give the impression that we are willing and able. Little by little we are getting results from this strategy. More will follow.

Dave


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Author: mikeytwohoes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677477 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 11:34 PM
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That's the dilemma, there is no right answer. Even though they are evil bastids, we can't pacify the locals. If we don't attack many will die. If we do attack many will die. You cannot liberate people with bombs except from their bodies.

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Author: philz61 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677479 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/30/2005 11:58 PM
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Did they wait untill the WTC was nearly empty, say at 2 AM? I'm sure this would have been less loss of life than has occured already & much more effective. M9

So your answer is to become terrorists ourselves?

Count me out.


Erik, we do count you out because we couldn't count on you to back us up if our lives depended on it.

philz

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Author: franchot Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677481 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 12:02 AM
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"count you out because we couldn't count on you to back us up if our lives depended on it."

Philz,
Would you like to clarify for those who remain puzzled why "our lives depended" on invading Iraq??



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Author: philz61 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677483 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 12:14 AM
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The hope of spreading democracy across the Middle East is a pipe dream. Even if Iraq does become a stable, peaceful democracy -- an "if" of gargantuan size -- neither of us will live to see the rest of the Middle East become democracies.

FP,

I thought that about the Berlin Wall. I don't know how old you are but I was in my thirties when the wall came down. Thought it never would. Thought the USSR would always be our adversary, always kept the bomb shelter stocked and reading to go. Twenty five years later, don't think it anymore. The shelter hasn't been stocked now since the mid eighties. Well, ya, it's stocked but it is a fruit celler now and is used for really nasty weather.

Unless it's you're time to go (and none of us knows when that is), you'll see the rest ot the Middle East become democracies or as close as they can be and still preserve their traditions and way of life. The rest of the ME knows what is happening in Iraq and they (the citizens) want it too. I know it is hard to believe, hell, hard to imagine, but it will happen. Just wait.

philz

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Author: skybluewater Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677485 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 12:18 AM
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So your answer is to become terrorists ourselves?

Count me out.
---------
Erik, we do count you out because we couldn't count on you to back us up if our lives depended on it.


I meant count me out of the warmongering crusading that has us raping and pillaging our way across the Muslim world. But you knew that.

Erik


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Author: franchot Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677487 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 12:23 AM
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"The rest of the ME knows what is happening in Iraq and they (the citizens) want it too."

Sorry, have you ever been to the ME? Do you know anything about the region? Anything at all? Do you know the influence of tribal loyalty, the opposite of meritocracy? You know about all of these things do you? How are the cuckoos up in that cloud you occupy?

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Author: MrCynic Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677491 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 12:47 AM
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But I would be very happy to be wrong. Very

Would you really? In that case, could you please ask your friends over there on your side of the political aisle to get out of the way and stop trying to hinder America's efforts in Iraq?

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Author: philz61 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677495 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 12:59 AM
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"count you out because we couldn't count on you to back us up if our lives depended on it."

Philz,
Would you like to clarify for those who remain puzzled why "our lives depended" on invading Iraq??


Sure franchot. First, the phrase doesn't have anything to do with Iraq. From what little I know of Erik (through his postings), that statement led me to believe that Erik couldn't be counted on to defend the USA if under attack like in the movie (Red Dawn).

And Erik,

I meant count me out of the warmongering crusading that has us raping and pillaging our way across the Muslim world. But you knew that.

No, I didn't. Not from what I gleened from your post. If I misunderstood, I apologize.

Look fellas, why do you keep beating the horse? It's dead. Bush said in his address three and a half years ago that he was going to hunt down terrorists where ever they were and go after any country who harbored them. Afghanistan and Iraq were the two weakest links in the terrorist chain of countries, so they were first.

It's time to move forward. Don't become losers like Senators Kennedy and Kerry. If I were a dem, I'd had been so embarrassed with what they said on the shows today.

I watched last night Iraqis take their lives into their own hands. Watched them stand up to terrorists. Watched a young Iraqi male help an old blind man mark his ballot and then watched as the blind man pushed away the young man so he could find the slot and drop the ballot into the ballot box. I watched many Iraqi men kiss the ballot box after putting their ballots in. I watched the celebrating and dancing in the streets. I wanted to go vote. I wanted to experience the feeling of freedom for the first time like they were. Iraqi people walked for miles to vote, and we feel it's just a pain in the ass to vote. If you watched last night, you saw the birth of a nation. Now it's struggling to breath, but watch it grow stronger in time. Watch how that strength, the strength of a free people will spread to the surrounding counties. As I said to FP, I think we'll be around to see it.

philz



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Author: philz61 Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677497 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 1:10 AM
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"The rest of the ME knows what is happening in Iraq and they (the citizens) want it too."

Sorry, have you ever been to the ME? Do you know anything about the region? Anything at all? Do you know the influence of tribal loyalty, the opposite of meritocracy? You know about all of these things do you? How are the cuckoos up in that cloud you occupy?


franchot,

Do you see good in anything? Or are you against people who desire freedom in general? Why do you hate Bush and to the sound of it, everything else? The cuckoos on my cloud are just fine, but they don't sound so good from where you're at.

And yes, I do know the region. I do know about how the tribal system works. I was a military planner. I had to know.

philz

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Author: ghdude Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677499 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 1:13 AM
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From what little I know of Erik (through his postings), that statement led me to believe that Erik couldn't be counted on to defend the USA if under attack like in the movie (Red Dawn).

LOL.... WOLVERINES!!! :)

Derek



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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677542 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 8:18 AM
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The hope of spreading democracy across the Middle East is a pipe dream. Even if Iraq does become a stable, peaceful democracy -- an "if" of gargantuan size -- neither of us will live to see the rest of the Middle East become democracies.

You know, THAT is a daring prediction.
I plan to live another 50 years - and the world will be a radically different place in 50 years. For one thing, the oil production from the ME will only be a small fraction of what it is today.

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Author: deejay7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677553 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 9:19 AM
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It is pretty amazing, especially when you consider that usually over 40% of Americans don't vote, despite having cars and easy access to safe polling locations.

Does this mean Iraq is now more democratic than the US!!!

deejay7

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Author: deejay7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677557 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 9:25 AM
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To have done nothing after the 11Sep attacks would have hurt our image much worse.

This is exactly the sort of ignorance that got Bush re-elected!!!

deejay7

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Author: ramsfanray Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677559 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 9:27 AM
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Sounds like the media has decided to report on the positives rather than those who died in violence.

From what I have seen the media is reporting both.

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Author: FoolYap Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677561 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 9:29 AM
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So, which is it? We should attack evil bastards and we're bad because we haven't or we shouldn't but in this case we did, so we're bad.

My point is that saying we invaded Iraq to remove an evil bastard is disingenuous, a lie. That's Bush's ex-post-facto rationale for what we did. And if you're going to argue for the goodness of the removal of all the world's evil bastards (an impossibility), then you'd best be prepared to pay the price, in money and blood. I don't think you are. I'm not.

--FY

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Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 9:36 AM
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To have done nothing after the 11Sep attacks would have hurt our image much worse


Sounds exactly like a gang member. "Hey! I got dissed! I had to respond, or it would have hurt my REP! The little kid was just in the way!"

We killed all those people in Iraq and Afghanistan to protect our IMAGE?

SLL

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Author: FoolYap Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677567 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 9:38 AM
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You know, THAT is a daring prediction.

Yes. I'd be happy to be wrong.

I plan to live another 50 years - and the world will be a radically different place in 50 years. For one thing, the oil production from the ME will only be a small fraction of what it is today.

True. But I don't see that as being conducive to democracy. Today there's much political unrest because the oil wealth is concentrated in the hands of very few, while the majority are very poor with few opportunities. If in 50 years there's no oil wealth, how does that change things for the better for the majority? I see the Middle East becoming poorer than ever, and probably hungry as well -- kinda hard to grow food there without the ability to mine fossil water or desalinate ocean water, and without cheap energy that's going to be hard.

--FY

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Author: Dopeman1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677569 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 9:40 AM
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We killed all those people in Iraq and Afghanistan to protect our IMAGE?</i?

No, but you knew that.

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Author: sandyleelee Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677575 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 9:54 AM
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We killed all those people in Iraq and Afghanistan to protect our IMAGE?

No, but you knew that.

True, but I was answering someone who claimed, in effect, that we did.

We killed all those people to advance the neocon PNAC plan for world domination.

SLL



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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677599 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 11:15 AM
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True. But I don't see that as being conducive to democracy. Today there's much political unrest because the oil wealth is concentrated in the hands of very few, while the majority are very poor with few opportunities. If in 50 years there's no oil wealth, how does that change things for the better for the majority?

It won't. That's the point. Right now, the oil wealth is being used to buy stability in those countries. The poor and the middle class are bought off with subsidized housing, food and health care.
It is no coincidence that the most severe unrest in Iran was in 1999 - in 1998 the oil price had dropped to $8 per barrel, the government was strapped for cash and the economy was in crisis.
Now the situation in Iran is unfortunately much stabilized due to the hugely increased oil revenues.


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Author: FoolYap Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677621 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 11:52 AM
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It won't. That's the point. Right now, the oil wealth is being used to buy stability in those countries. The poor and the middle class are bought off with subsidized housing, food and health care.

Agree, so I don't see how yanking away that stabilizing cash flow makes it likely that democracy will flower there?

Are you saying that if you flip a coin often enough, eventually it comes up "heads"? I disagree that analogy holds for this.

--FY

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677632 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 12:05 PM
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Are you saying that if you flip a coin often enough, eventually it comes up "heads"? I disagree that analogy holds for this.


The Eastern Bloc nations all came down because the economy sucked. Indonesia is an even better example. Here the massive economic asian crisis of 1998 caused the downfall of Suharto. Now the country is a democracy.

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Author: ghdude Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677638 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 12:16 PM
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The Eastern Bloc nations all came down because the economy sucked. Indonesia is an even better example. Here the massive economic asian crisis of 1998 caused the downfall of Suharto. Now the country is a democracy.


There is an important component however. You need a military that is either unable or unwilling to fire on its own people. Iraq, for instance, had a people living in miserable conditions and desperate to end Saddam's rule but their uprising was violently put down.

In your own country, the people were kept in their place with brute force until one day, the border guards decided that they would not do it any more.

Ultimately, it's the decision of the military to support change or stand in the way.

Derek

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677639 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 12:19 PM
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There is an important component however. You need a military that is either unable or unwilling to fire on its own people. Iraq, for instance, had a people living in miserable conditions and desperate to end Saddam's rule but their uprising was violently put down.

Yes. But Saddam was able to keep his military happy with the oil wealth.
The military consists of the population, and if the population absolutely hates the dictator and the dictatorship is obviously bad for the country, the military has a tendency of not supporting the dictator.

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677648 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 12:25 PM
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The Eastern Bloc nations all came down because the economy sucked. Indonesia is an even better example. Here the massive economic asian crisis of 1998 caused the downfall of Suharto. Now the country is a democracy.
-----

Hey, maybe after the economic collapse here, we'll develope a true democracy!





Rich


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Author: ghdude Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677654 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 12:33 PM
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Yes. But Saddam was able to keep his military happy with the oil wealth.
The military consists of the population, and if the population absolutely hates the dictator and the dictatorship is obviously bad for the country, the military has a tendency of not supporting the dictator.


So maybe the problem lies in how removed the military is from the population. For instance, when China decided to crack down in Tiennamen Square, they brought in soldiers from the far Western provinces who wouldn't really care about the people they were firing on. And if the military suffers alongside the population, rather than profiting off of it, then they will tend to support change. Another good example of this is the Soviet Union. Seems like things started going poorly only when they stopped paying the enlisted men.

Important note for US residents. Make sure you pay your NCOs well. We're the ones who start the revolutions. :)

Derek

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Author: FoolYap Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677661 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 12:48 PM
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The Eastern Bloc nations all came down because the economy sucked. Indonesia is an even better example. Here the massive economic asian crisis of 1998 caused the downfall of Suharto. Now the country is a democracy.

I guess we'll see whether Iraq's neighbors follow Indonesia's example. I don't think they will. I think religion extremists have too strong a hold on places like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Is there an example of a democracy that thrives in the face of entrenched religious fundamentalism? (America may be soon putting that to the test...)

--FY

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677667 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 12:58 PM
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I guess we'll see whether Iraq's neighbors follow Indonesia's example. I don't think they will. I think religion extremists have too strong a hold on places like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Is there an example of a democracy that thrives in the face of entrenched religious fundamentalism?

I don't think religious fundamentalism is very entrenched in Iran anymore.
The generations that have grown up under the restrictive Islamic regime are very disenchanted with it. There's nothing that cures people of theocracy as fast as living in one.

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Author: FoolYap Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677703 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 1:39 PM
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I don't think religious fundamentalism is very entrenched in Iran anymore.
The generations that have grown up under the restrictive Islamic regime are very disenchanted with it. There's nothing that cures people of theocracy as fast as living in one.


For the record, I hope you're right and I'm wrong. --FY

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Author: hackshark Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677765 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 2:46 PM
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The true test of democracy is believing that when your candidate loses, you support the right of the opposing guy to govern. The question remains what kind of government will emerge from this.

absolutely.

it is too early to call the system successful, or the terrorist defeated, but a step was taken toward those ends.

-hack

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Author: hackshark Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677767 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 2:48 PM
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We didn't start this war but we must finish it.

move to israel is you wanbt a perpetual unwinnable war.

-hack

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Author: hackshark Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677768 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 2:49 PM
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Saddam still rules.

there would 100,000 more iraqis alive if that were the case.

-hack

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Author: umphy Three stars, 500 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 677777 of 1976034
Subject: Re: I salute the Iraqis who voted Date: 1/31/2005 3:01 PM
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Some Yappy twit needs ta get a JOB..preferably in Fallujah..I hear BIG Al is missing in inaction..........

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