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Author: kook79 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 308858  
Subject: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/4/2007 9:56 AM
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Well, I thought I'd toss this idea out there and let the board chew on it. I have a small real estate business in which I purchase and rent out properties. Currently between my new wife (as of June 23rd!:-)) and I we have 4 not including the house we are living in which makes a grand total of 5 homes. Two of the homes cash flows and they are all on 30 year fixed mortgages. I have long term tenants in all of them who pay their rents on time. I would like to stop working in about 5 years when I turn 33 and focus my efforts on my real estate careers, however all the home mortgages total $872,336.77. I have already taken a piggy back loan of $18,500 that was 30 year fixed at 6.035% and moved it to a 12-month 2.9% offer, credit card. That way, I have a lower rate and save some money in the long run. My question is after I pay off that 18,500, would it make sense to write a convience check to the mortgage company every year from my credit card to take advantage of a low interest or 0% interest loan to pay down the principle balance? Once a house is paid off, I would use the rental income to continue snowballing until all homes were paid off. With increasing rent, this would give me an income of around $7,000+ a month that I would have free and clear. Any thoughts?

kook79
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Author: aj485 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255203 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/4/2007 10:48 AM
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My question is after I pay off that 18,500, would it make sense to write a convience check to the mortgage company every year from my credit card to take advantage of a low interest or 0% interest loan to pay down the principle balance? Once a house is paid off, I would use the rental income to continue snowballing until all homes were paid off. With increasing rent, this would give me an income of around $7,000+ a month that I would have free and clear. Any thoughts?

If you are able to manage the cash flow with the fixed rate payment and the credit card, it sounds reasonable. The deductibility of the interest payment on the credit card would be based on if the debt was traceable to your rental real estate, so you would need to show clearly that the debt was solely incurred to pay down the mortgage and be sure not to use the credit card for anything else.

If you use this strategy for your primary residence mortgage, you would lose the deductibility of the interest altogether, but by dropping the interest rate significantly, you will still come out ahead, assuming that the BT costs are reasonable.

AJ

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Author: kook79 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255205 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/4/2007 1:09 PM
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AJ

Thanks for writing back so quickly.

"The deductibility of the interest payment on the credit card would be based on if the debt was traceable to your rental real estate, so you would need to show clearly that the debt was solely incurred to pay down the mortgage and be sure not to use the credit card for anything else."

Are you saying that I can write off my interest on the credit card for tax purposes as long as I can trace it back to the mortgage? My credit card is with USAA and they do not have any balance transfer fees, which is why I transferred the 18,500 to them and off of one of my rental properties. The mortgage payment is 1047 a month on this specific property, and I collect 1050 a month in rents. I would look at transfering about 12,000 a year or so one mortgage at a time. Below is a down and dirty.

Rental 1: $203,356.63 (30-year fixed, PITI, 6.75%)
Payment: $1601 per month
Rent: $1300 per month
Rental 2: $197,671.72 (30-year fixed, ITI, 7.5%)
Payment: $1454 per month
Rent: $1200 per month
Rental 3: $144,035.98 (30-year fixed, PITI, 5.75%)
Payment: $1047.35
Rent: $1100 per month
Rental 4: $154,000 (30-year fixed, PITI, 5.25%)
Payment: $951.04
Rent: $1000 per month

Principle Residence: $167,751.31 (30-year fixed, PITI, 5.5%)
Payment: $1444.42
Amount received from brother $722.21
Amount received from tenant $300.00*

*This amount is placed on the loan as an "additional payment" towards principle every month.


My goal would be to start to take some off of Rental 2 since it is an interest only and will then become a principle and interest loan after 10 years. I would work on getting the mortgage payment to less then the rental payment and add on the additional income to pay down the loan faster, thus hitting it from both sides. After that, I'd work on Rental 3, (if I still own it, it's getting close to my "magic number" in which I would sell it), and work on paying that one off.

Thoughts?

kook79


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Author: kook79 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255206 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/4/2007 1:10 PM
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Rental 3 rent should read 1050 a month and not 1100.

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Author: HappyFool45150 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255218 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/4/2007 6:12 PM
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Wow, interesting post. You have significant debt as well as significant negative cash flow on these dwellings, -500 if I add (or subtract as it is) correctly. Was not sure of the $$ mentioned below your principal residence. Income from the property where you live? My initial thoughts are....

a) Does your combined income (congrats) cover this negative cash flow on real estate?

b) You don't mention taxes. I'll assume you are an honest taxpayer and claim the rental income. As a benefit of that, you can also claim expenses against the rental properties, depreciation and taxes being big ones. Naturally all of that requires rigorous attention to financial details. I'm not a tax specialist and only mention the tax effects because they may be beneficial to you. Seek the advice of a qualified professional.

c) I agree with you, I see a danger with Rental 2 mortgage. You are already negative on cash flow with this one with what I deem a rather high rate of interest. With a looming reset to payments with principal, looks ugly to me. Sell it ASAP. Remember, cash flow now and tomorrow.

d) Do you have a maintenance fund for these properties? With those rentals, I'm sure you have experienced the "toilet clogged" call. If not, lucky you but it WILL happen. A roof leak, clogged gutters or pick your poison.....

e) You don't mention any other financial information which makes it difficult to answer your question "Ideas on getting out of debt". From what you've posted, I see cash going out for properties that don't carry themselves. Selling the properties would be the easiest way out of debt but then again, that might not be in line with your plan.

f) Paying extra principal on the mortgages today at a 0% rate does nothing for cash flow except to obligate you to pay something off in the next 12 months as opposed to the tail end of the mortgages. You are already negative cash flow. Why accelerate that? Unless the point of doing so is to lessen the pain of when the Rental 2 payment resets to include principal.

g) Your temperanment for being a landlord. All those toilets to fix, etc. so on and so forth.

I realize that those comments and questions do not answer the question of getting out of debt. Looking at the numbers, I'd suggest refinancing at a lower rate of interest where possible. You make no mention of your "credit power" or refinancing to help the cash flow problem other than to use 0% checks payable in 12 months to reduce payments that reduce your pay-off date. This raises red flags for me. As I see it, cash flow is your most pressing issue and without understanding your other income (re: jobs) and outgo, it is difficult to make specific suggestions.

Sorry to have added more questions than answers, but providing food for thought.

Dave

Who started out sending $100 extra to principal on primary residence mortgage. The self imposed extra principal payment was $142 last month and will increase by $2 per month until payoff. Turns that 30 year note into a 15 year note, YAY me! Your Mileage May Vary.


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Author: aj485 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255229 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/4/2007 10:23 PM
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Are you saying that I can write off my interest on the credit card for tax purposes as long as I can trace it back to the mortgage?

That is my understanding......You might want to ask over on the Tax Strategies board to confirm, but if you can trace the debt back to your business of renting houses, it is a business expense.

My goal would be to start to take some off of Rental 2 since it is an interest only and will then become a principle and interest loan after 10 years. I would work on getting the mortgage payment to less then the rental payment and add on the additional income to pay down the loan faster, thus hitting it from both sides. After that, I'd work on Rental 3, (if I still own it, it's getting close to my "magic number" in which I would sell it), and work on paying that one off.

Wow, you are nearly $500 cash flow negative on your rentals, without even counting maintenance and repair expenses. I am glad that your mortgage payments all include escrow for taxes and insurance, otherwise you would be even further in the hole each month. I hope you have a good rental property contingency fund that is separate from your e-fund, because if a couple of the properties happen to be vacant the same month, or need a new roof, or whatever, you could be in a world of hurt.

Rental number 2 would definitely be a good place to start this strategy, because if the principal remains at $197k, even if your taxes and insurance do not increase, your payments will increase to more than $1800 when your loan resets. Plus it's the highest interest rate.

I wonder if you are spreading yourself too thin, and may be too heavily invested in real estate. You are mitigating the risk to some degree by getting some rental income on your primary residence, but it's still a huge concentration in (I am assuming) one market.

AJ

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Author: numbrel Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255231 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/4/2007 10:35 PM
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kook79,

I don't like to rain on your parade, but just how do you figure you will be able to go into real estate fulltime in five years with properties that are COSTING you money not earning you money?

The numbers you put up for the mortgages vs. income is scary and it doesn't cover where you are going to get the money to pay off the $18,5000 on your credit card. It sure isn't coming from your properties.

The secret to real estate is in the purchase price, not counting on future appreciation or higher rents which may not arrive. You need to find properties that not only cover their finance costs, but also throw off enough to cover maintenance and give you income from the moment you sign the purchase contract. You don't have that now.

You don't have a "small real estate business," you have a hobby that is costing you money.

Barbara

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Author: kook79 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255249 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/5/2007 11:06 AM
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Happ Fool,

a) I make 58,000 a year or about $3,800 give or take monthly. My wife brings in about $2,500 give or take monthly. My payment on my primary residence is 722.21 a month from my pocket. My last three raises have been 17%, 25%, and 18%. I get an evaluation and a raise every November.

b) The last two years, I have received from taxes 2006: >$7,000 and 2007: >3,000. I've made adjustments to my pay so I do not get so much back, but MSFT Money has it figured that I'll receive in the neighborhood of a $7,000 dollar refund this year. So I do pay my taxes:-)

c) Every month I put anywhere from $1000 to $1500 towards my credit card debts and budget for the rest of the month with what's left over.

d) Since I just recently got married, I have received quite a number of cash and check gifts which have been split between me and the Mrs. All the gift money goes into my house fund. I do have a cushion of about $5000 which is constantly refunded around tax time. The entire tax refund goes into that fund

e) In terms of the rest of my finances, I have 33,000 in a ROTH IRA, 17,000 in various stocks and mutual funds and 8,000 in a ROTH 401(k).

f) The way I see it is it will move my payments further on down the line. If I can put a 12,000 0% interest down next year on a house and the payments I make every month, more go toward paying the principle then the interest. How long would it take me to pay down 12,000 if I were to make regular payments. That was my logic.

g) I have a management company that works with all of that and does that stuff for me. Great company too! They desperately want me to come and work for them, which would give me even more of a discount and also allow me to buy and sell houses on my own commision.

kook79


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Author: kook79 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255250 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/5/2007 11:14 AM
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Borad

I almost forgot. The main reason for the $500 difference was rental number 1 and rental number 2 were refinanced and equity was pulled out. I did that to keep a larger cushion and used to to completely renevate rental number 1. Before that, the loan payments were (Rental 1: PITI 30-year fixed, 1237.31 per month and rental 2: was $957 ITI) I had pleanty of cash flow, but being new to buying real estate at the time I heard that it's a wise idea to refinance, pull out equity and then buy a new home. The problem was that I did not have one in mine and the funds were used to fix up rental 1 instead of using a credit card and also used for other maintenance reasons. All the rentals but two are brand new homes so the maintenance on them right now is easy to deal with plus on all the older homes, I have already done all the updating and maintenance work.

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Author: Zvolen Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255264 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/5/2007 1:09 PM
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I think you are in a deeper hole than you think, none of your properties are cash flowing and some aren't even close, no matter how much you pay down the mortgage unless its paid OFF. After factoring in vacancy, I think if you have one bad month you are gone. My suggestion is to sell the properties and start over, or at least sell a majority of the houses. I personally would rather have 1 or 2 houses that pays me money then 4 or 5 houses where I am paying them.

I too do not see how you could quit your job in 5 years with the hobby, I wish you all of the best.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255296 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/5/2007 10:58 PM
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I had pleanty of cash flow, but being new to buying real estate at the time I heard that it's a wise idea to refinance, pull out equity and then buy a new home
Only if you want to extend your debt.

I too think you should sell off a few of these and concentrate on getting a smaller number of rentals profitable. You sound too over-extended given your financial position (credit card debt, multiple mortages, etc).

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Author: Hohum77 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255304 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/6/2007 5:40 AM
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I almost forgot. The main reason for the $500 difference was rental number 1 and rental number 2 were refinanced and equity was pulled out. I did that to keep a larger cushion and used to to completely renevate rental number 1. Before that, the loan payments were (Rental 1: PITI 30-year fixed, 1237.31 per month and rental 2: was $957 ITI) I had pleanty of cash flow, but being new to buying real estate at the time I heard that it's a wise idea to refinance, pull out equity and then buy a new home. The problem was that I did not have one in mine and the funds were used to fix up rental 1 instead of using a credit card and also used for other maintenance reasons.

It doesn't matter how you spin it, if the payments on the properties exceed the income generated from the properties...

You are cash-flow negative!!!


All the rentals but two are brand new homes so the maintenance on them right now is easy to deal with plus on all the older homes, I have already done all the updating and maintenance work.

All but two are brand new homes- another spin case.
With a total of four rentals, all but two are NOT brand new homes is also a true statement.


As other have stated, the intent is not to rain on your parade. The intent is to get you to take a hard and accurate assessment at your rental business.


Hohum


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Author: TicoHombre Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255308 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/6/2007 8:46 AM
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Let me chime in here. I hadn't said anything yet, because I felt the replies adequately warned that you are very much treading in thin ice due to having mostly cash flow negative properties. I have 7 properties 6 of which are cash flow positive by fairly healthy amounts. One is just barely cash flow negative due to a 15 year mortgage. All avg ~40% equity because they were rehabs that have benefited from an appreciating market and appreciating rents. Cash flow negative rentals are ticking time bombs! I'll illustrate from experience what you will run into...

You posted:

Rental 1: $203,356.63 (30-year fixed, PITI, 6.75%)
Payment: $1601 per month
Rent: $1300 per month
Rental 2: $197,671.72 (30-year fixed, ITI, 7.5%)
Payment: $1454 per month
Rent: $1200 per month
Rental 3: $144,035.98 (30-year fixed, PITI, 5.75%)
Payment: $1047.35
Rent: $1100 per month
Rental 4: $154,000 (30-year fixed, PITI, 5.25%)
Payment: $951.04
Rent: $1000 per month

Principle Residence: $167,751.31 (30-year fixed, PITI, 5.5%)
Payment: $1444.42
Amount received from brother $722.21
Amount received from tenant $300.00*

*This amount is placed on the loan as an "additional payment" towards principle every month.


You have total monthly mortgage obligations of $6,497
You recieve rental income of $5,550 (Due to -$50.00 adjustment in later post)
Right out the gate you are -$997.00 negative. That's just the beginning. Other posters said -$500.00 for some reason I'm not seeing that. Maybe there's something in you post I'm not understanding. (If I'm off $500 it matters little in your case as I'll illustrate.)

You had better have vacancy of 6% of gross monthly rents (A little conservative because you say they are all long term renters. And a maintenance of 10% of gross monthly rents. You will have maintenance issues. (Yes, even in new houses) Water heaters, central heating and air units, plumbing issues, roof repair are among the most expensive. Even if you were cash flow positive, one repair easily wipes out a years "profit" on a house.

Using the above 16% of gross (10%+6%) you must set aside $6,497*16%=$1,039.52 each month for reserves. Where will this money come from? Not from your free cash flow because you have none. You are feeding this alligator $997.00 (negative cash flow) plus $1,039.52 (reserves) for a total negative monthly cash flow of $2,036.52 every month!

You are setting yourself up for the perfect storm...

You get a tennant that decides to move out leaving you covering a $1,444.00 mortgage plus the new painting and carpet and repairs. You must keep the houses in near immaculate condition to attract quality renters. Cutting corners here will cause the condition of the houses to deteriorate attracting low quality renters who further abuse the property creating a vicious cycle. And the deposits will only cover a portion of the damage between renters due to normal wear and tear with comes out of your pocket, not theirs.

About the time the above occures, the unbelievable happens, another of your "long term" renters decides he whant to move too. This leaves you an additional $1,200.00 mortgage to cover without the renter to make the payment for you.

What do we have so far?

You are feeding 997.00
Plus Mort #1 1,444.00
Plus Mort #3 1,200.00
------------------------
Total out 3,641.00
Plus maint 3,000.00 this is just a carpet replacement/paint/misc guess
So you are out $6,641.00 for a month. Wait! What am I saying, you've got two houses that need repairs to ready for rent. Let's cut the cost of the second house down to only $800.00 because it's a newer house.
Rather than $6,641.00 you add another $800.00 making the out of pocket expenditures $7,481.00.

These figures can and will obviously vary. They are used for illustrative purposes only. I have had all the above happen more than once, and I am in a strong rental market. How many of these can you handle? You're bringing in combined incomes of $6,300.00 which may sound like a lot until you have to feed multiple mortgages and repairs during a few months of vacancy.

Moreover, rental properties don't net much even when you are cash flow positive. You are already feeding this alligator with $18,500 in credit card debt. Rather than benefit from appreciating rents, you are sucking more profit by refinancing. You are going deeper in the hole every month without even realizing it.

What I've illustrated above isn't even the "Perfect Storm". It's just the occasional tempest that will occur. The perfect storm can wipe you out before you even know what hits you. For example, add to the equation an unforseen medical emergency, pregnancy, layoff, auto accident or other life event that cuts out one of the salaries. Life will throw this at you on top of the bad month(s) I've already mentioned. It's horrifying to say the least.

As others not emotionally attached to your "rental business" have already said, you must take action now! I speak from experience. Things will move along smoothly and then all hell will break loose. You are currently not even prepared for even the lesser troubles. Dump some houses so that you can manage these unforseen occurances.

Remember, even when your rents match your mortgages, you're still 16% (multiplied by the rents) cash flow negative.

Wishing you the best,

TH


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Author: kook79 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255313 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/6/2007 12:01 PM
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I truely am humbled by all of the board's advice on dealing with my rental housing. I will start to investigate releasing one of my properties and already have an idea on which one I would sell and to whom I would sell too. I have a tenant in rental 3 who has expressed an interest to purchase after the first year, however I wanted to wait until I hit the magic number, ($229,000) but close is enough (212,000). Selling this will net me about $60,000, after various fees, and free up some cash flow to look elsewhere and make a larger down payment or to put down on rental 2. $50,000 down on rental 2 would make the mortgage about $147,671.32, and the payments would be a lot lower. Possibly cash flowing it a bit. I would keep about 10,000 on the side so I can pay taxes on the sale. Right now, this is the one that would move the fastest if it sold to the tenants. Their lease is up in August and rent would move to $1100 a month from August 2007 - August 2008. Thanks all.

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 255319 of 308858
Subject: Re: Ideas on getting out of debt Date: 7/6/2007 3:40 PM
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kook79: "
Rental 1: $203,356.63 (30-year fixed, PITI, 6.75%)
-Payment: $1601 per month
----Rent: $1300 per month
Negative $301

Rental 2: $197,671.72 (30-year fixed, ITI, 7.5%)
-Payment: $1454 per month
----Rent: $1200 per month
Negative $254

Rental 3: $144,035.98 (30-year fixed, PITI, 5.75%)
-Payment: $1047.35
----Rent: $1050 per month
Positive $2.65


Rental 4: $154,000 (30-year fixed, PITI, 5.25%)
-Payment: $951.04
----Rent: $1000 per month
Positve 49.96

(301) + (254) + 2.65 + 49.96 = (555) + 52.61 = (502.39)

Plus payment on $18,500 CC, assume 2% - (370).

This looks like negative monthly cashflow of at leat ($872), and ignores maintenance, reserves, vacancy, make-ready expenses and fees to management company.

All the above numbers are pre-tax, in part because we do not have enough information to calculate post tax numbers.

"I have a management company that works with all of that and does that stuff for me."

How much does that cost?

"They desperately want me to come and work for them,"

That is called switching jobs, not retiring.

"which would give me even more of a discount"

discount to or for what?

"and also allow me to buy and sell houses on my own commision."

Please elaborate? I doubt that you can sell anyone else's house for a commission unless you get a real estate license.

If you keep buying houses that require you to feed the monthly alligator, you may never retire (unless you get lucky in the appreciation department).

Regards, JAFO




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