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Author: DiabloQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 196275  
Subject: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 10:01 AM
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Some stuff on another thread (the one about the new Attorney General) was about churches using bingo as a fundraiser. Some people were opposed to it because Bingo is a form of gambling. Could someone please explain why you're so opposed to Bingo? Another poster was also against churches having wine tastings. Please explain what's so wrong about that.

I'm genuinely curious as to what's so horrible about Bingo and wine tastings. Thank you for the explainations.

And what, if anything, would you consider to be an appropriate church fundraiser?

-- Fran

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Author: krissylou Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38279 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 10:19 AM
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Some stuff on another thread (the one about the new Attorney General) was about churches using bingo as a fundraiser. Some people were opposed to it because Bingo is a form of gambling. Could someone please explain why you're so opposed to Bingo?

I certainly don't think that Bingo is Satanic, but I'm glad that my parish doesn't have Bingo games. (We do have an annual festival which raises most of its money from gambling games.)

For most people, Bingo games are a fun social outlet and that is fine and good. But for some, gambling, even if it's just Bingo, becomes a real problem. I do not like the idea of profiting off of this.

KrissyLou

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38280 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 10:51 AM
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Hi DiabloQueen,

"And what, if anything, would you consider to be an appropriate church fundraiser?"

How about faith?--Faith that God will provide your needs.

"I'm genuinely curious as to what's so horrible about Bingo and wine tastings."

As for me, personally, please refer to Matt 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-18, Luke 19:45-47, John 2:14-17.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: BrotherAndrew Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38281 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 11:02 AM
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Fran,

I think you answered your own question. Bingo is a form of gambling. This is why it's not allowed.

In addition, the Church I attend does not allow Raffles or drawings either. They are both forms of gambling. However, we do have an annual auction. It is one of our best fundraisers. It's a time when a person may find a bargin, but more likely will over pay for some goods or service. However, since it goes to the Church and the person knows what they are getting, everyone is happy.

Wine tastings are also not allowed even during communion. We serve grape juice instead. The connection between alcohol and alcoholism is something that we all need to respect. Nevertheless, in social settings it is an individual choice on wether to consume or not although one still needs to be respectiveful of others.

Praise God,
Brother Andrew

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Author: SBXJavadude Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38283 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 11:07 AM
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Well at first glance I though jerry wrote the title(hehehe). Obviously the Catholic Church does not have a problem with Bingo nights. There are plenty of those.

While I could see the problem from a gambling standpoint, I have no out right objection. Maybe instead of money, prizes could be given away?

As for wine tasting nights, I had never heard of those. If it is a true wine tasting party, I doubt anyone would get drunk. Perhaps offering a lite meal with it?

I like auctions. Those are always fun.

Are you trying to plan a church fundraiser? If so, you probably know your congregation better than anyone here. Is this something they would go for?

Charlie



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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38285 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 11:09 AM
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Fran:
I am the guilty party. I am not opposed to bingo or wine tasting in and of themselves. An individual has the right to choose his life style (within God's parameters- a different discussion).
I do not think there is a 'thou shalt not gamble' or 'thou shalt not taste wine'. Paul does state that we should be filled with the Spirit not wine.

Gambling and alcohol are addictive and can be very destructive. I do not think that the church body should promote them. Neither IMO promotes a walk with Christ.

IMPOV there is a difference when an individual /s do something and the 'church' sponsors something. Yes, there is a fine line here but people relate what a 'church' does to God more than they relate what an individuals does.

We are to be in the world but not of the world. Something about us should be different. What we as the 'church' do corporately should be different. The activities that the 'church promotes should undeniably glorify God, 'the ends do not justify the means'.

If a tenth of what Christians spent on gambling and alcohol were used for humanitarian purposes we could transform this world. Sorry this does not come from a scientific study, just MPOV.

Note: I enjoy wine with meals and I have played poker with friends. We also have used car bingo on trips.
We have played Michigan rummy using pennies with the kids. But I would strongly oppose it if our Sunday school class wanted to have a bingo social to raise money for anything.

1 Corinthians 8 (paraphrase) If what we do can cause a brother to stumble do not do it.

Our freedom was paid for with an awesome price, we must be careful and use our lives as lights in a dark world. There are some things that of themselves are not necessarily wrong, but as a body of believers we should avoid. There are plenty of 'fun' activities, the corporate 'church' can use to reach out.

EJ


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Author: DiabloQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38286 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 11:32 AM
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"I'm genuinely curious as to what's so horrible about Bingo and wine tastings."

As for me, personally, please refer to Matt 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-18, Luke 19:45-47, John 2:14-17.


Thanks for taking the time to reply. So if I'm understanding your response correctly, you're opposed to a church doing any type of fundraising other than direct contributions from the members. This would include bake sales, rummage sales, selling Entertainment books, etc.

-- Fran

Passages from http://bible.gospelcom.net/

Matthew 21:12-13 -- 12 Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 "It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.'"

Mark 11:15-18 -- 15 On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations'? But you have made it `a den of robbers.'" The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.

Luke 19:45-47 -- 45 Then he entered the temple area and began driving out those who were selling. 46 "It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be a house of prayer'; but you have made it `a den of robbers.'" 47 Every day he was teaching at the temple. But the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the leaders among the people were trying to kill him.

John 2:14-17 -- 14 In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" 17 His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."









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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38296 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 11:57 AM
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Fran,

"So if I'm understanding your response correctly, you're opposed to a church doing any type of fundraising other than direct contributions from the members."

BINGO!!! Ha ha!! I couldn't resist, sorry.

I think it's great that when you read these passages you came up with the same thing!

"This would include bake sales, rummage sales, selling Entertainment books, etc."

First, I don't think anybody should sell what they believe God has given them (talent, gifts, revelation). That's prostitution. Jesus told the disciples, "Freely ye have received, freely give." Matt. 10:8b

The problem is that "fund raisers" are always used to raise money for things that the church can't currently support. This is a lack of faith on the part of the leadership. Raising funds for God is like Abraham taking Hagar and making Ishmael. If the church can't support something the Lord has told them to do, God is asking them to step out in faith. Where He guides, He provides.

Keep in mind that the "thieves" in the temple were providing what appeared to be a good service, and there is nothing in those scriptures that says that they mistreated the buyers. They were also endorsed (or at least condoned) by the church of the day. Jesus also drove out the "innocent bystanders", the buyers. Interesting.

Of course, a proven ministry should be supported (if possible) by the body into which he sows.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: natjbrown Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38299 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 12:03 PM
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And what, if anything, would you consider to be an appropriate church fundraiser?

Well, I'm opposed to gambling and consumption of alcohol in any form, but let me just address this question.

Back when my church used to have fund raisers, there were a number of things we would do.

Bake sales
Potluck dinners where you pay for admittance
Movie night (Make sure you don't violate copyright on the movies. Popcorn and drinks can be real profit makers, too.)

In Boy Scouts, we had auctions of donated items, we made and sold frozen pizzas, we made and sold assorted chocolates, we auctioned off our services for painting, mowing lawns, etc.

We no longer have fund raisers; instead, we make do with the tithing donations the church receives. In addition, my church has put aside some of the tithing money and invested it for the future. I believe the leaders of my church have said that most of that money is invested in real estate, which appreciates in value, and meanwhile, you can farm it. The food from these farms is donated to people in need, and the labor is mostly done by volunteers.

Good luck.

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38302 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 12:19 PM
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"This would include bake sales, rummage sales, selling Entertainment books, etc."

First, I don't think anybody should sell what they believe God has given them (talent, gifts, revelation). That's prostitution. Jesus told the disciples, "Freely ye have received, freely give." Matt. 10:8b

The problem is that "fund raisers" are always used to raise money for things that the church can't currently support. This is a lack of faith on the part of the leadership...


So if the pastor of a church writes a book on, "How To Have An Effective Prayer Life" and the book is sold through the church office with the proceeds going back to the church for various purposes:

1. That's prostitution?
2. That shows a lack of faith?


Wow. That's a lot to consider.



ShelbyBoy

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38305 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 12:48 PM
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Shelbyboy,

"Wow. That's a lot to consider"

Wow. Somebody's considering something. Thank you for your consideration. : )

"So if the pastor of a church writes a book on, "How To Have An Effective Prayer Life" and the book is sold through the church office with the proceeds going back to the church for various purposes:

1. That's prostitution?
2. That shows a lack of faith?"


First, this is the rarest of cases. Writers almost always have a cut somewhere unless they've made enough previously on other books they should've given away.

Second, the contents of the book should not be something new to the congregation he preaches to every sunday or more.

Third, if the Lord impressed him to write this work, he should give it away because it's the word of God, and he, as a pastor, wants the best for his flock.

What would you think if, in offering you salvation, I made you buy a book or CD first? How 'bout this: Your mother sends me a Christmas present to give to you, but instead of giving it, I sell it to you for $5. I go a step further and give that $5 to the church. Does that make my charging you good? It doesn't give it value, it cheapens the experience because you did something to gain it. All gifts of God are free of monetary charges. They cost the only thing we can offer Him--our lives.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38306 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 12:53 PM
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ShelbyBoy,

"That shows a lack of faith?"

Just one other thing.

Does God really need us to raise money for His work? Are there any examples in the Bible where those efforts turned out well?

Abraham and Ishmael are a great example of how not to help God.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38308 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 1:24 PM
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Wow. Somebody's considering something. Thank you for your consideration. : )...

...What would you think if, in offering you salvation, I made you buy a book or CD first?



I'm trying to consider - but I don't follow your analogy. If as I suggested earlier a pastor writes a book on prayer and sells it through the church office - possibly because he has received requests from others for a written reference - and the proceeds go to the church - that's a loooooooooong way from him requiring someone to make a purchase to before "offering" salvation. I don't understand why you offer that analogy - maybe you'll explain.

If there is a church that requires a purchase be made before salvation is offered - I would guess that situation is an exceptional exception.



How 'bout this: Your mother sends me a Christmas present to give to you, but instead of giving it, I sell it to you for $5. I go a step further and give that $5 to the church. Does that make my charging you good?


No - you would have committed theft. Again, I don't follow the analogy.



"So if the pastor of a church writes a book on, "How To Have An Effective Prayer Life" and the book is sold through the church office with the proceeds going back to the church for various purposes...

First, this is the rarest of cases. Writers almost always have a cut somewhere unless they've made enough previously on other books they should've given away.

I don't know that this is so rare. I can provide you with several examples of individuals who have written books and donated the proceeds to a church or charity - examples both within and without the secular world.



they should've given away.

Should've given away? Are you implying that a Christian should never use God-given talents or abilities for self-profit? If not - where do you draw the line? Should Christian musicians not seek a profit by selling CD's and tapes for example?

James Dobson of Focus On The Family has written several books. He does not receive a salary from Focus On The Family and he does not receive any royalties on books he has written which are sold through Focus On The Family(FOF). He even reimburses Focus On The Family for providing him a personal secretary at the organization. He does receives royalties when his books are sold in bookstores.

I guess since he doesn't earn any money from the books sold through FOF he must be one of those people who "made enough previously on other books they should've given away." If he should have given this other book money away - how do you propose he earn the money to support his family?

ShelbyBoy

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Author: TMFSelena Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38309 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 1:30 PM
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KM --

(First of all, I love the title of this thread!)

You said:

<<First, I don't think anybody should sell what they believe God has given them (talent, gifts, revelation). That's prostitution. Jesus told the disciples, "Freely ye have received, freely give." Matt. 10:8b>>

and:

<<Does God really need us to raise money for His work? Are there any examples in the Bible where those efforts turned out well?>>

I just don't think it's as clear-cut as you're suggesting.

What about the many God-given talents we use in our jobs? I'm a writer. I've been a teacher. I've used my skills, such as they are, to earn a living -- one that includes extra, disposable, investible income. Surely that's not prostitution? :)

Does God need us to raise money for His work? Perhaps not. But perhaps He'd apprciate it if we did. Perhaps it's showing good stewardship, if we use our skills in our jobs to earn money, some of which we give for His work. And perhaps we can use our skills at baking, to raise money for more good works through bake sales.

Perhaps we even arrange some fun activities, like Bingo or an auction or whatever, and raise money through those activities.

You said:

<<All gifts of God are free of monetary charges.>>

What about Christian musicians? They sell albums and most probably make a living andm ore off of the albums, although certainly most of them must also contribute to the church.

I wouldn't say that all gifts of God are free like you did. Instead I'd suggest that God's one big gift is always free -- the gift of salvation. But for a church to look for money to maintain or expand its work delivering God's word or just demonstrating it seems fair. For people to pay ministers a salary seems fair. For people to write books or make albums or give speeches and charge money... that all seems fair. Of course, any time such things are done for free is all the better, but I don't see how such things are anything close to prostitution...

Food for thought...

Selena

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38311 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 1:34 PM
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Just one other thing.

Does God really need us to raise money for His work?



Basically any question that starts with the words, "Does god really need us..." could properly be answered with the word "No."

If I understand you, not only do you seem to think that God doesn't need us (which I agree with) but you also seem to think it is wrong for us to make attempts to earn money for various "Godly" functions.

If you follow that line of thought, Billy Graham should never write a book that will be inspiring to millions of people and sell it through his organization because that shows a lot of faith. His organization should instead print and give away the book. Of course the money for the paper and ink has to come from somewhere - but to make that need known seems to be showing a lack of faith.

Hmmmm. Again - a lot to consider.

Let me ask another question. In many Protestant churches (and perhaps others), an offering plate is passed around on Sunday morning. Doesn't putting an offering plate right in a person's hands show a lack of faith? Shouldn't the church instead just wait for God to motivate individuals to come forward on their own motivation and give money to the church's efforts?

ShelbyBoy

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Author: DisplacedTexan Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38315 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 2:10 PM
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You know as I think about this just a bit, I have to agree, God does not NEED us to raise money for His work, but the real question is does He WANT us to do so? And perhaps, if the answer to that is yes, then it's because we NEED to do it.

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Author: shirah33 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38318 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 3:49 PM
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? Another poster was also against churches having wine tastings. Please explain what's so wrong about that.


this one i've never understood myself...i mean jesus was on the cup of redemption when judas left, and that IS wine...as any jewish person..they drink something like 12 glasses that evening.

also if drinking is such a sin why was it Jesus first miracle?

sorry..i was born and raised baptist and we were taught never to touch it, however, i left after non finding anything that says it's wrong.

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38319 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 3:54 PM
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ShelbyBoy,

I love this dialogue. It's great!

"What would you think if, in offering you salvation, I made you buy a book or CD first?"
"that's a loooooooooong way from him requiring someone to make a purchase to before "offering" salvation. I don't understand why you offer that analogy - maybe you'll explain."

I'll explain after the next set of quotes...

"How 'bout this: Your mother sends me a Christmas present to give to you, but instead of giving it, I sell it to you for $5. I go a step further and give that $5 to the church. Does that make my charging you good?:
No - you would have committed theft. Again, I don't follow the analogy."

Extortion, I think.

You've got it!!! Maybe I'll clarify the analogy:
Your father sends me the gift for you. I sell you the gift. Then I send the money to your brother.

I have been sent a revelation. "How to have a prayer life, bla bla." Instead of giving it to you as your Father would have it, I sell it to you for profit. What I do with the profit is beside the point. I sold you something that I was given for your benefit! So, then I give the profit to your brother, and keep the money in the family. Does that make it better? NO!

You see, body ministry is how the church was designed. Read Acts. They gave freely to each other within the body, and the world was amazed at their love for one another.

"Are you implying that a Christian should never use God-given talents or abilities for self-profit?"

Doesn't that sentence make your skin crawl? No, I'm not impying it, I'm stating it emphatically. A Christian should never take a "profit" on his brothers. See below.

"Should Christian musicians not seek a profit by selling CD's and tapes for example?"

You're catching on...
Not if what they have made was given by God. If God calls a person into ministry as a vocation, then they have God's nod to live off the ministry. It's a worldly influence on music ministers that gives us such dispicable things as "worship superstars" and "christian recording artists." Who gets the glory? People, plain and simple. These things are done in Jesus' name, but He gets only part of the glory, if any. That

"He does not receive a salary from Focus On The Family and he does not receive any royalties on books he has written which are sold through Focus On The Family"

This part is as it should be. And, no Christ-centered book or other art should ever cost a Christian anything. Selling to the world and working in the world is how Christians make a living.

Do you charge your mother to take out the trash? No. She may give you something in return, but you don't charge her. Why would you charge others in your family? The scriptures even tell us that we are to prefer our Christian brothers over our unsaved family members.

Hope this helps

In Christ.

KM

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Author: DiabloQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38320 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 3:57 PM
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"So if I'm understanding your response correctly, you're opposed to a church doing any type of fundraising other than direct contributions from the members."

BINGO!!! Ha ha!! I couldn't resist, sorry.

I think it's great that when you read these passages you came up with the same thing!


Sorry, but I disagree with your interpetation of the passages. What I get from them is that a church shouldn't force its members to engage in commerce in order to worship. (i.e. charging money for communion)

First, I don't think anybody should sell what they believe God has given them (talent, gifts, revelation). That's prostitution. Jesus told the disciples, "Freely ye have received, freely give." Matt. 10:8b

So does that mean we shouldn't use our intelligence at work? How are people supposed to earn a living if they can't do anything they're talented at? Should I look for a less challenging job so I won't have to think?


The problem is that "fund raisers" are always used to raise money for things that the church can't currently support. This is a lack of faith on the part of the leadership.

I thought it was due to a lack of funds, not faith. :) I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

-- Fran




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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38321 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 3:59 PM
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shirah33,

"sorry..i was born and raised baptist and we were taught never to touch it, however, i left after non[t] finding anything that says it's wrong."

Seriously? You left a church because they believed drinking was wrong? Surely there were other things.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: shirah33 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38322 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 4:06 PM
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Seriously? You left a church because they believed drinking was wrong? Surely there were other things.

In Christ.


yeah...the director said he was infallable because he was appointed by God himself. that made me leave that particular church, but the drinking thing made me look elsewhere. odd thing is i really dont drink, i just dont think it's wrong if someone does.

the one and only time that drinking is wrong is if you made a god of it and drink for comfort...but hey, i was doing that with food and no one ever mentioned it. it was more socially accepted to be fat than drunk i guess :)

when i realized that i had made food a god in my life and stopped eating for comfort i lost 40 lbs (ok maybe 42, but i havent seen a scale in over a year)



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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38323 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 4:11 PM
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Fran,

I'm sure you've already read it, but I'd like you to check out my last response. It clarifies the question of who pays our bills.

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=13993117

"The problem is that "fund raisers" are always used to raise money for things that the church can't currently support. This is a lack of faith on the part of the leadership."
"I thought it was due to a lack of funds, not faith. :) I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that."

The lack of funds is not the object. The raising of the funds thru effort of the members is the lack of faith. If God wants something done, He'll take care of it.

Also, as displacedtexan stated, we need to follow God's leading and not be lazy. If the Lord directs us to take a second job, for ex., we should not hesitate to follow in the rest of the Lord.

Oh, and Fran, at least give me a chuckle for the bingo joke...

In Christ.

KM

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38326 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 4:25 PM
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Hi Selena,

"Surely that's not prostitution?"

No. Making an honest living is not prostitution. Making a profit (and attempting to) off of the gifts God is solely responsible for by selling them to your brothers in Christ is.

"What about Christian musicians? They sell albums and most probably make a living andm ore off of the albums, although certainly most of them must also contribute to the church."

If your friends jumped off a bridge...?
Just because people are out there doing something that some people call "good" doesn't mean either group is correct, right or even Godly.

In Christ.

KM->who's going home for the holidays...

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Author: NoFanofWise5044 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38327 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 4:35 PM
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First, I don't think anybody should sell what they believe God has given them (talent, gifts, revelation). That's prostitution. Jesus told the disciples, "Freely ye have received, freely give." Matt. 10:8b

The problem is that "fund raisers" are always used to raise money for things that the church can't currently support. This is a lack of faith on the part of the leadership. Raising funds for God is like Abraham taking Hagar and making Ishmael. If the church can't support something the Lord has told them to do, God is asking them to step out in faith. Where He guides, He provides.


Several years ago I witnessed an example of this. A small church was planning an overseas mission trip. The cost of the trip was far beyond what the church could afford. This church had several members who were very gifted musically. They wrote some original music, recorded it and sold CDs (the CD is fantastic!). They paid for a portion of the mission trip with the proceeds. It appeared that God really blessed the money raising effort and the group saw many decisions for Christ on their mission trip.

With all due respects for your opinion, I have difficulty seeing how this was wrong. I think God led this church to step out in faith and commit to this trip. In turn, I believe God provided a portion of their needs through the creation and distribution of this CD.

In Him,

Brent



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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38336 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 6:43 PM
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KM,

As for me, personally, please refer to Matt 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-18, Luke 19:45-47, John 2:14-17.

What do any of these passages have to do with either bingo or a wine tasting? The obvious implications of these passages are (1) that we ought not be using worship services as a vehicle for raising money and probably (2) that we ought not ought not hold fundraising activities in oratories and chapels that are intended to be places worship. Nonetheless, a congregation does have to pay its bills and it ought to provide for its members who are in need.

BTW, I do agree with a comment of another poster that the chuch ought not promote addictive behavior and thus prefer to see funds raised in other ways. Auctions and fairs are excellent fundraising events to which even the poorest of a congregation can contribute their time and effort.

Norm.


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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38337 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 6:49 PM
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Fran,

When the "Bingo" sign is a banner across the front of the church, I think that there's a problem....

A mass aboard a cruise ship last month provided a bit of amusement related to the popularity of bingo to raise funds at too many of our Catholic parishes. Paradoxically, it occurred in the show lounge that the ship normally uses for bingo. The ship's personnel had conveniently stowed the bingo number board to the left of the stage. It was plainly visible -- right in the spot where a traditional Catholic church would have had a side altar. Perhaps God does have a sense of humor....

Norm.


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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38338 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 7:13 PM
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Shelbyboy,

If you follow that line of thought, Billy Graham should never write a book that will be inspiring to millions of people and sell it through his organization because that shows a lot of faith. His organization should instead print and give away the book. Of course the money for the paper and ink has to come from somewhere - but to make that need known seems to be showing a lack of faith.

Uh, bad example. Billy Graham does not sell anything through his organization. When he offers a book or tape during his TV crusade, it's free. The organization does not even charge for shipping and handling.

Dr. Billy Graham's organization actually maintains two separate mail lists -- one for ministry and the other for financial supporters. When we take calls during the televised crusades, we never solicit financial contributions. In fact, we do not even accept them in any form. If a caller offers to send a donation, we tell the caller that God's gift of salvation does not depend upon any financial contribution and that we are not there to raise money. The association does not send any solicitation mailings to the people on the first mailing list (which consists of those who either have come forward at a live crusades or to have called into the telephone centers) unless those individuals send a financial contribution of their own accord, and thus earn a place on the second mailing list.

Let me ask another question. In many Protestant churches (and perhaps others), an offering plate is passed around on Sunday morning. Doesn't putting an offering plate right in a person's hands show a lack of faith? Shouldn't the church instead just wait for God to motivate individuals to come forward on their own motivation and give money to the church's efforts?

I have seen quite a few churches that don't take up a collection during the service. Rather, they have a receptacle (usually locked to ensure privacy as well as security) at the entrance where parishoners can deposit their offerings, written correspondence for the pastor and/or staff, etc., on the way into or out of the oratory. In this way, poor people who can't afford to contribute are not embarrassed by having to pass the plate (or having a collection basket thrust under their noses) when they can't afford to put anyting into it. If we believe the scriptures, such individuals ought to be receiving from the offering according to their need.

Norm.


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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38339 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 7:19 PM
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KM,

Oh, and Fran, at least give me a chuckle for the bingo joke...

Sorry, but it struck me as 2/3 of a pun. The first 2/3, that is. ("P U")

Norm.


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Author: reader99 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38340 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 7:20 PM
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First, I don't think anybody should sell what they believe God has given them (talent, gifts, revelation). That's prostitution. Jesus told the disciples, "Freely ye have received, freely give." Matt. 10:8b

Could be I'm being too literal, but if I have natural flair for programming I shouldn't work for pay as a programmer? Talent for music, I shouldn't earn a living at it? Or did you mean more specifically spiritual gifts?



Reader99
Unfortunately not paid to exercise her gift of reading well

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Author: reader99 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38343 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 7:38 PM
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Never mind, another post answered it. You oppose Christians charging each other money to raise funds for church activities.



REader99

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38345 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 8:42 PM
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Another poster was also against churches having wine tastings. Please explain what's so wrong about that...also if drinking is such a sin why was it Jesus first miracle?...sorry..i was born and raised baptist and we were taught never to touch it, however, i left after non finding anything that says it's wrong.


Hmmm...just curious - who taught you never to touch it? I was raised Baptist and I was never taught this in Sunday School, I never heard it from the pastor, never heard it from my parents, etc.

I've never drank anything alcoholic in my entire life - but that's not because of my Baptist upbringing.

ShelbyBoy





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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38346 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 9:04 PM
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If you follow that line of thought, Billy Graham should never write a book that will be inspiring to millions of people and sell it through his organization because that shows a lot of faith. His organization should instead print and give away the book. Of course the money for the paper and ink has to come from somewhere - but to make that need known seems to be showing a lack of faith.

Uh, bad example. Billy Graham does not sell anything through his organization...


Hmmmm. A few years ago I attended a weekend seminar at the Billy Graham Training Center in Asheville, NC. I had to pay a fee for the seminar and another fee for a cassette tape copy of the seminar.

In the interest of keeping this thread on topic, I guess the Billy Graham organization should have spent the money to build the roads and buildings on that mountainside at his training center and then allowed people to come there to the seminars at no cost. Further, the various pastors and teachers who conduct the weekend seminars shouldn't receive any compensation for their efforts.
Interesting line of thought.

ShelbyBoy

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38347 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/29/2000 9:30 PM
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If God calls a person into ministry as a vocation, then they have God's nod to live off the ministry. It's a worldly influence on music ministers that gives us such dispicable things as "worship superstars" and "christian recording artists." Who gets the glory? People, plain and simple. These things are done in Jesus' name, but He gets only part of the glory, if any...

I get your basic point here. I remember watching a Christian Music Awards show on TV a few years ago. Until I watched that show - I didn't realize that only good looking men and beautiful women had enough talent to be professional Christian musicians :)



"He does not receive a salary from Focus On The Family and he does not receive any royalties on books he has written which are sold through Focus On The Family"

This part is as it should be. And, no Christ-centered book or other art should ever cost a Christian anything. Selling to the world and working in the world is how Christians make a living.

OK - stay with me on this James Dobson & Focus On The Family book thing. He doesn't receive royalties on books sold through FOF - only those sold through other means. You don't think he should profit if a Christian buys his books at a bookstore for example.

Since the huge majority of people who purchase his books are probably Christian, that may not leave him enough income to support his family if he can only profit from sales to non-Christians.

How do you propose he earn a living?

Wouldn't it make more sense for Christians to purchase his books to support his efforts and then give the book free to non-Christians?

If I own a bookstore and someone comes to the checkout with a James Dobson book for purchase, should I ask the person whether or not he/she is a Christian and then charge for the book if the answer is "NO" yet give it away if the answer is "Yes."


Here's a related question. Suppose I am in the 28% federal income tax brackett. I give $1000 to my local church which means I will get a $280 tax deduction. Should I also give the $280 to the church?

ShelbyBoy

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38354 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/30/2000 1:56 AM
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"And what, if anything, would you consider to be an appropriate church fundraiser?"

Believers giving free-will, joy-filled offerings. That is all that I see in the Bible.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38357 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/30/2000 2:24 AM
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"You know as I think about this just a bit, I have to agree, God does not NEED us to raise money for His work, but the real question is does He WANT us to do so? And perhaps, if the answer to that is yes, then it's because we NEED to do it. "

If we needed to raise money for God's work, as opposed to just giving money for God's work wouldn't God have mentioned it somewhere in His Word. Yet I seem to have trouble finding anything in God's Word about anything other than free will offerings. And the only place we do see any kind of "fund-raising" we see a strenuous protest from Jesus.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38358 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/30/2000 2:39 AM
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"the one and only time that drinking is wrong is if you made a god of it and drink for comfort..."

No, there are other times when it is wrong. It is wrong any time it leads to drunkenness. It is wrong whenever it has power over you. And it is wrong if it stumbles a brother or sister.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: shirah33 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38366 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/30/2000 9:29 AM
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No, there are other times when it is wrong. It is wrong any time it leads to drunkenness. It is wrong whenever it has power over you. And it is wrong if it stumbles a brother or sister.

God bless,

Rich


Same as food huh? How come no one fusses at food? A normal person eats daily but does not sin. A person that eats for comfort and overeats doing so sins (because he's made a god of food and it comforts him/her). So it's the excess that is the sin. Why is it not this way with alcohol?

if someone eats in front of me and it makes them want to overeat, does that make it a sin for me? according to your theory it does because it causes my brother/sister to stumble.

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Author: shirah33 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38367 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/30/2000 9:36 AM
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If we needed to raise money for God's work, as opposed to just giving money for God's work wouldn't God have mentioned it somewhere in His Word. Yet I seem to have trouble finding anything in God's Word about anything other than free will offerings. And the only place we do see any kind of "fund-raising" we see a strenuous protest from Jesus.

God bless,

Rich

the shekel thing wasnt exactly free will..it was for maintaining the temple and rich or poor, you paid one shekel per year




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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38372 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/30/2000 10:00 AM
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ShelbyBoy,

A few years ago I attended a weekend seminar at the Billy Graham Training Center in Asheville, NC. I had to pay a fee for the seminar and another fee for a cassette tape copy of the seminar.

These seminars have a very different mission than the crusades. The seminars are to training people for positions of pastoral leadership. The cassette from the seminar probably was not exactly intended for new Christians, either....

I should also mention that the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association does make their seminars available at reduced or no cost for people who are in positions of pastoral leadership and cannot afford the normal price of the seminars.

Norm.


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Author: krissylou Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38373 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/30/2000 10:04 AM
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if someone eats in front of me and it makes them want to overeat, does that make it a sin for me? according to your theory it does because it causes my brother/sister to stumble.

But we can't live without eating! We can live without drinking alcohol. This is a pretty easy and clear distinction between the two situations.

If someone struggles with overeating and you know or should know this, and you tempt them by relishing a hot fudge sundae in front of them, that's a sin, even though there is nothing inherently wrong with hot fudge sundaes. Drinking alcohol goes in the same category.

If you're eating a sensible meal and someone sees you and they are tempted to overeat, that's unfortunate but it's certainly not a sin.

KrissyLou

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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38375 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/30/2000 10:25 AM
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Yes, God uses His people with money to help people without. Barnabas, I believe, was the first recorded to sell land and give it to the apostles. Paul raised money for the believers in Jerusalem. People worked, bought, sold, and earned money that is where the offerings came from. Paul admonishes the believers to meet the needs of pesters/teachers/evangelists. Whether I go to the office and earn $100 and give it, or go wash cars and give the $100, makes no difference. If I can make an offering of time to wash cars then that is how God enables me to give, and what a blessing. If I am willing to bake cakes and sell then therefore giving more than I had if I just gave the amount of the ingredients then I have just multiplied my recourses.
Let's say the cake is worth $6.00 and I sell it for $50. The person who bought it may have just given the $50 to the 'church' but multiplied the blessing. The person who baked the cake, the person who offered time to sell the cake, the cognation raising the money, the recipient of the money, and the giver.
God takes what we give as an offering and multiplies it. We give time, Spiritual gifts, talent, and monies none is more important than the other.

The question, are there ways to raise funds that because of appearance or bottom line effect we should not use

The answer yes, but the individual believer must decide what his conscience will permit.

For some bingo is no more harmful than a lemonade stand. For others it represents a lure to an idol, gambling.

EJ

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38411 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/30/2000 7:36 PM
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"How come no one fusses at food? "

Some do.

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=12819965

"according to your theory it does because it causes my brother/sister to stumble. "

It is not my theory, but the Apostle Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 8:9-13, as well as Jesus' teaching in Matthew 18:1-7.

God bless,

Rich





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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38412 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/30/2000 7:38 PM
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"the shekel thing wasnt exactly free will"

The "shekel thing" has nothing to do with Christianity and what are appropriate ways for the Christian church to get money.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38414 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/30/2000 7:52 PM
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"Whether I go to the office and earn $100 and give it, or go wash cars and give the $100, makes no difference."

It depends on how the car washing is done. If you provately set up a car washing business collect the money as personal income (paying income tax, of course)and then contribute it then I agree that there is no difference. But if you get together with a bunch of peopleand hold a car wash where it is stated that the proceeds will go to XYZ Church or ABC missionary fund, etc., then I think there is a very big difference. And I see no place in the NT where any such fundraising is authorized or sanctioned. When Barnabas sold land and gave it to the church he sold the land as an individual.

"Let's say the cake is worth $6.00 and I sell it for $50. The person who bought it may have just given the $50 to the 'church' but multiplied the blessing. "

And who gets the glory? You for baking the cake and the purchaser for paying more for it than it was worth.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: jrdown Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38435 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/31/2000 5:27 AM
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ShelbyBoy ~

Let me ask another question. In many Protestant churches (and perhaps others), an offering plate is passed around on Sunday morning. Doesn't putting an offering plate right in a person's hands show a lack of faith? Shouldn't the church instead just wait for God to motivate individuals to come forward on their own motivation and give money to the church's efforts?

Well, IMHO I'd say "yes". The most honorable experience I ever had was with the Calvary Chapel group. It is their belief that your tithes and offerings are between you and God. They do not pass an offering plate or basket at any time.

There is a tithing box in the narthex (not in the sanctuary) and they leave it up to the congregation as to when or if they use it.

One time only in the five years we attended was any mention made. That was to clarify their position on the Lord providing the funds needed to run the church and to allow for any growth. Mostly it was a "question & answer" time.

The church we attend now does use an offering plate and we don't have any problem with that. I just thought it was so neat to trust the Lord to provide and then no one ever had to feel "squirmy" if they didn't donate each time it was passed.

We would put our tithe in after each payday. That was every two weeks so on the "off" week we didn't put anything in but we didn't feel as though we were doing anything wrong by not contributing weekly. I always wanted to make sure that we gave God his due instead of worrying that by the end of the second week expenses may have created a problem.


Robyn



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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38443 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 12/31/2000 11:44 AM
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"Let's say the cake is worth $6.00 and I sell it for $50. The person who bought it may have just given the $50 to the 'church' but multiplied the blessing. "

And who gets the glory? You for baking the cake and the purchaser for paying more for it than it was worth.


No necessarily. I have been to bake sales and other such situations where people don't have this attitude. Rather, thanks is given to God for the cake-makers' abilility and willingness to make the cake while thanks is also given to God for the person who purchased it having the ability to earn the money and the willingness to give it.

It depends on your perspective. You can say, "Aunt Betty's cake is delicious" and still properly assign the glory - those are not mutually exclusive.


ShelbyBoy

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38475 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/1/2001 11:19 AM
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Shirah,

"...the director said he was infallable because he was appointed by God himself"

A God appointed servant doesn't toot his own horn. While I don't doubt that some music directors are appointed by God (IE: David), that does not give them infallability nor should it be seen as a seal of approval from God on their lives.

That's awsome that God helped you realize who your god was. He brought you toward Himself with that revelation, huh?

In Christ.

KM

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38477 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/1/2001 11:35 AM
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Shelbyboy,

"You don't think he should profit if a Christian buys his books at a bookstore for example."

Well, even before that, I don't think Christian bookstores would exist as they do now if everybody in the businesses were following after the example of Christ. I think Dobson should earn His living thru his daily ministry. (radio, counseling[another issue]) I don't believe Dobson should earn his living by charging for his books that he believes are ordered by God. However, I've been a little more dogmatic about this whole thing than I actually am. I'm not out to change the world with this message, although it would be a good thing. Salvation and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit are two good examples of high priority doctrines in my life.

"Wouldn't it make more sense for Christians to purchase his books to support his efforts and then give the book free to non-Christians?"

It would/does make more dollars, not sense.

"Here's a related question. Suppose I am in the 28% federal income tax brackett. I give $1000 to my local church which means I will get a $280 tax deduction. Should I also give the $280 to the church?"

I've never thought about that before. Interesting. I don't think there is a scriptural basis for that, but I don't know. Obviously were not talking about tithe, here. That would be much more than 1,000. We're talking about giving of your surplus. So I guess that would be optional based on what you here from the Lord. If God told you to give 1,000, then you're done. If God told you to give 1,280, then throw it in the offering.

Thanks for the insight.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38480 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/1/2001 11:52 AM
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Shelbyboy,

"Doesn't putting an offering plate right in a person's hands show a lack of faith? Shouldn't the church instead just wait for God to motivate individuals to come forward on their own motivation and give money to the church's efforts?"

Yes and yes. As Norm stated earlier, many churches just have a recepticle in the front or back to passively receive God-inspired tithes and offerings.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38481 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/1/2001 11:57 AM
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Brent,

Thanks for responding...

"I believe God provided a portion of their needs through the creation and distribution of this CD."

I believe that if God actually called them to go on this trip, He would have provided with or without the music being sold.

If you new the trip was paid for, which would seem like faith to you, allowing God to provide miraculously or doing it in your own strength?

In Christ.

KM

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38484 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/1/2001 12:27 PM
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Norm,

"(1) that we ought not be using worship services as a vehicle for raising money and probably (2) that we ought not ought not hold fundraising activities in oratories and chapels that are intended to be places worship."

I think one should note that there is no record that the activities in the temple gave any of their money to the temple. Probably, they paid a fee to the priests directly for use of the court, but who knows? I don't think that this was the sin part, though. I think God's house should be used for ministry alone. Any property owned by the church should be God's house- not just the sanctuary or chapel.

"Auctions and fairs are excellent fundraising events to which even the poorest of a congregation can contribute their time and effort."

I guess the whole point is, why not just allow God to convince His children of what, when and how much to give rather than offering them something in return. It's just more pure that way. If they are His children, they should've been taught about tithing. If every body tithed, BTW, the church would be the richest [not stored, but flowing] institution in the world. If everybody in the church followed after Christ, giving would not be an issue. The problem would be for the authorities to know what the Father's will is for such large sums.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38487 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/1/2001 1:28 PM
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If you new the trip was paid for, which would seem like faith to you, allowing God to provide miraculously or doing it in your own strength?

Could the CD be made in God's strength? Yes.

I guess most have heard the story of the man trapped on his roof during a flood.
1) Police came to warn him to leave while he had time.
2) A man in a rowboat came to save him.
3) A helicopter came to save him.
In each case he said God would save him.
He died and asked God why He did not save him.
God responded I sent the police, a rowboat, and finally a helicopter, why didn't you let them help and leave?

For the issue of God providing funds, might He say?
I sent people who wanted their car washed.
I sent folks who wanted to buy a cake.
I gave you the gift of music, why didn't you sing praises? I had people who wanted to purchase your music.
I would have received honor and glory from their gifts, why did you not let them help?
.
There are many ways people are blessed by giving and blessed by helping people give.
I desire my son to go on a mission trip, there is great blessing in working for your funds by washing cars, selling donuts, or raking leaves. Who are we to limit how God will provide for our needs.
Do not do fund raising activities, they do not demonstrate our faith in God to provide.
Do not save for retirement, this does not demonstrate our faith in God to provide.
Do not save for your child's college, this does not demonstrate our faith in God to provide.
Do not……
Sounds legalistic!


EJ


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Author: jpbailey Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38495 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/1/2001 5:29 PM
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I do not think that the church body should promote them. Neither IMO promotes a walk with Christ

What I have a difficult time balancing is how abuse of these activities can hurt a walk with Christ but the activities themselves may not.

Jesus' first miracle was turning water to wine at a celebration, not even a wine tasting. As for bingo, I've seen bingo be a wonderful event to build community.

True, both can be abused and lead to excessive - but isn't that true with almost anything? Can't anything, in excessive, be considered to hurt our walk with God? Food, hobbies, work, reading, etc. All are not by themselves hurtful, but in excessive can disrupt relationships and our walk with God.

--John


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Author: jpbailey Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38496 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/1/2001 5:34 PM
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Does God really need us to raise money for His work? Are there any examples in the Bible where those efforts turned out well?

Didn't Paul make tents while he was in ministry?

I think Tithing is one approach God uses but I think he's open to almost anything including investing. Fundraisers can be remarkable opportunities for building community and providing services as well.
--John


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Author: nematoo Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38500 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/1/2001 6:12 PM
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Acts 4:31-37, esp.v.32,34-35:

And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul; neither said any of them that ought of the things that he possessed was his own; but they had all things in common.

Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

And laid them down at the apostles' feet; and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

**** ****

Of course, that is not done today; but we are given example as to how to take care of the needs of the brotherhood. As previously posted, there are our jobs, as well.

**** ****

I have one question, though, which I have delayed asking. Where does the Bible say it is wrong to gamble? I have never seen anything wrong with it, other than the money could go to better cause. As one poster already said, anything done to excess is sin. Is that the only problem with gambling? the excess?

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38514 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/1/2001 10:18 PM
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jpbailey,

"Didn't Paul make tents while he was in ministry?"

Yes, while he was doing the ministry. He supported himself while he was there. We have no Biblical record that he worked really hard and did lots of overtime to raise the money needed to go to a different city to continue ministry.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38519 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/1/2001 10:49 PM
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KM,

I guess the whole point is, why not just allow God to convince His children of what, when and how much to give rather than offering them something in return. It's just more pure that way. If they are His children, they should've been taught about tithing. If every body tithed, BTW, the church would be the richest [not stored, but flowing] institution in the world. If everybody in the church followed after Christ, giving would not be an issue. The problem would be for the authorities to know what the Father's will is for such large sums.

Can you find even one passage in the NT that sanctions tithing in the Church???

To my recollection the only reference to thithing in the NT is the parable of the Widow's Mite -- where Jesus pointed out that the widow's $0.01 (or some fraction thereof) was worth vastly more than the much larger donations given by many because it was given out of her need rather than out of her abundance. There's also the passage where Jesus told the disciples to catch a fish, to take the coin out of its mouth, and to use the coin to pay their share of the temple tax, thus fulfilling the law.

In reality, the notion of tithing -- that is, that we should give 10% to God -- is strictly from the OT. In the NT, Jesus demands that we commit everything to God and accordingly use it for his purpose. It's interesting to see how this was fulfilled in the early church, where the poor members of the community of faith were not expected to contribute financially at all. Rather, the poor members received from the common pot according to their need (See Acts 2:44-45, 4:32-37)!

Sorry to break the news to you, but any pastor who preaches and teaches tithing is not faithful to the teaching of Christ.

Norm.


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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38520 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/1/2001 10:51 PM
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"Didn't Paul make tents while he was in ministry?"

Yes, to support himself. That is different than doing it under the auspices of the church.

"I think Tithing is one approach God uses but I think . . ."

The key words are "I think". Without scripture to back up these thoughts they aren't very convincing.

God bless,

Rich


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Author: jpbailey Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38529 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/1/2001 11:52 PM
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We have no Biblical record that he worked really hard and did lots of overtime to raise the money needed to go to a different city to continue ministry.
But in fairness, we don't have any evidence that he didn't do this either. The absence of it being mentioned isn't an indication that it didn't happen.

What about the parable of the talents. Couldn't an investment be considered to be similar to a fund raiser?
--John


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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38543 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/2/2001 7:57 AM
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John,

"What about the parable of the talents. Couldn't an investment be considered to be similar to a fund raiser?"

If you parallel the servant who is an individual with the church body and don't parallel money with something else (like talents or gifts), sure that could work. There are alot of parallels that people come up with that aren't necessarily Godly revelation because they are not consistant throughout scripture.

Seriously folks, this is not a doctrine on the same scale as salvation and baptism in the Holy Spirit. If you don't agree with me, so what? Do it your way. I'm just trying to shed some light. What do you think takes more faith?

In Christ.

KM

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38544 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/2/2001 8:17 AM
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Norm,

"Can you find even one passage in the NT that sanctions tithing in the Church???"

Obviously this is a major issue for you. I wasn't suggesting that preachers, priests or pastors should demand tithing. But it should be taught as part of the OT. Of course giving as Christ taught would even more provide for the needs of the world, but most of the church hasn't even gotten to the 10% of the OT yet. The tithe was the basis of giving under the law.

"Sorry to break the news to you, but any pastor who preaches and teaches tithing is not faithful to the teaching of Christ."

I appreciate your apparent sincerity, though I don't trust it. So nothing under the law should be taught today? I know you didn't mean that. You're studied and I don't believe you meant that. People that have not read many of your posts might not know you as well as I.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38548 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/2/2001 8:59 AM
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EJ,

"If you new the trip was paid for, which would seem like faith to you, allowing God to provide miraculously or doing it in your own strength?"

"Could the CD be made in God's strength? Yes."

You dodged a direct question, EJ.

"I guess most have heard the story of the man trapped on his roof during a flood."

You could use that story in many situations, but without listening to God, you may apply it to the wrong situations. This is one of those situations. Many times God says don't go, but just as many times, He says go and I'll provide when you need it, trust Me.

"Do not do fund raising activities, they do not demonstrate our faith in God to provide.
Do not save for retirement, this does not demonstrate our faith in God to provide.
Do not save for your child's college, this does not demonstrate our faith in God to provide.
Do not……
Sounds legalistic!"


I hope I did not say, "Do not do" those things. I'm not out to condemn people that do. If you've seen a better way, don't you want to share it with others? But, no. People don't want to hear what I have to say because they perceive that I'm saying that I'M better than they are because I know something. That's ridiculous. The messanger is no better for the message he carries. But, in carrying the message, he carries power inherant in the message that challenges people, and they don't want to receive it.

Please, people, open your hearts and seek God about this rather than look for ways to discredit what is being said without hearing His voice. Many people have missed the Lord this very same way. I would give room for error on my part except that I've seen God do exactly what I'm talking about. It is very preferable to the ways we know. If you do not receive this message, you will not be condemned nor will you loose salvation or standing with God. But you will miss out on one of God's wonderful attributes directly affecting your life.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38549 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/2/2001 9:18 AM
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Rich,

At the risk of dragging you into this, thanks for your post.

"And what, if anything, would you consider to be an appropriate church fundraiser?"

"Believers giving free-will, joy-filled offerings. That is all that I see in the Bible."

In Christ.

KM

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38576 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/2/2001 1:37 PM
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I think Dobson should earn His living thru his daily ministry. (radio, counseling[another issue]) I don't believe Dobson should earn his living by charging for his books that he believes are ordered by God.


I'm trying to follow but the answers you provide me seem to result in more questions.

First, I don't believe Dobson earns any money from radio nor from counseling. FOF doesn't sell advertising and he doesn't earn a salary for appearing on the radio.

Second, if he is not to earn money from books, then why should he profit from radio or counseling? I'm beginning to wonder how Dobson can "Biblically" earn a living and still head an organization such as FOF.

ShelbyBoy

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38577 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/2/2001 1:41 PM
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If every body tithed, BTW, the church would be the richest [not stored, but flowing] institution in the world. If everybody in the church followed after Christ, giving would not be an issue. The problem would be for the authorities to know what the Father's will is for such large sums.


This I agree with.


ShelbyBoy



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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38579 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/2/2001 1:45 PM
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If you new the trip was paid for, which would seem like faith to you, allowing God to provide miraculously or doing it in your own strength?


So, let's see. If a church makes any effort to raise funds - even something as simple as passing an offering plate on Sunday morning - that shows a lack of faith.

If I start having pains in my chest and think I am having a heart attack, would I be showing a lack of faith if I seek medical assistance from humans?

ShelbyBoy

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38588 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/2/2001 3:40 PM
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Shelbyboy,

"First, I don't believe Dobson earns any money from radio nor from counseling. FOF doesn't sell advertising and he doesn't earn a salary for appearing on the radio."

In my previous post, I mentioned that I thought that Dobson should take a salary from the broadcast or counseling. Thinking it over, I don't think that counseling is a job that should earn income because it should be performed by elders [bishops] in the church. (I Tim. 3:2) Psychology is really the study of the mind which is part of the soul. An elder should know the doctrine as it pertains to the soul.

I also had to rethink whether the radio broadcast was considered a ministry as to a local flock. I don't know what God thinks, but it would seem to me that it is a viable ministry that is worthy of earning a living from. I'm not the ultimate judge, so I don't know for sure.

"Second, if he is not to earn money from books, then why should he profit from radio or counseling? I'm beginning to wonder how Dobson can 'Biblically' earn a living and still head an organization such as FOF."

Well, we also need to consider that, even for all the "good" it does, is that (or any) non-church organization Biblical? Does God approve of "organizations?" I don't see any Biblical precident for organizing anything other than churches and those in homes. I'm not preaching, I'm exploring. You are seeing me think this stuff through.

Thanks for making me think about my own convictions. I appreciate that. My answer (which means didley to God) depends on what God says about organizations that are doing work "in His name," but are not necessarily a local body. I don't know.

I respect his putting money from his own pocket into ministry efforts. I guess the questions are, should he have gained that money through the avenues he chose, and are these legitimate ministries?

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38590 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/2/2001 4:10 PM
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I guess the questions are, should he have gained that money through the avenues he chose, and are these legitimate ministries?


Jesus is quoted as saying to his 70 disciples before sending them out ahead of him:
Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 10:9 Provide [for yourself] neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. [IOW, the people they minister to were expect to provide for them.]

It amazes me that people expect missionaries, preachers, and other ministry-types to not receive a salary. How do you expect them to live? Are they to wait in the desert for the ravens to bring their food?

As to your question of whether or not God approves of "organizations", what do you think your church is? Or your denomination? Well, perhaps your church isn't...your pastor isn't paid a salary I presume. Jesus attended a synogogue (sp?) every week...that's a organization and the leaders were supported by the community that attended that "church". God provided for the livelihood of the Levitical priesthood, why do we find supporting our ministers so abhorant?

Now, before anyone jumps down my throat, the above is not "said" in an angry or attacking "tone"....if you take it as such there's nothing I can do about it.



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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38616 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/2/2001 7:09 PM
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Frecs,

I appreciate your responding, but I don't think you've read the entire thread. It's obvious from your post.

"[IOW, the people they minister to were expect to provide for them.]"

I don't think the language is quite right. The scripture reads, "the workman is worthy of his meat." One could also say that the ministers expected God to provide for them. If he used the people, so be it. IOW, the workman is worthy of whatever he is given. He did not depend on a sum from the people. That hardly means a "salary."

"As to your question of whether or not God approves of "organizations", what do you think your church is?"

previous posts... I agree. My church is an organization.

"God provided for the livelihood of the Levitical priesthood, why do we find supporting our ministers so abhorant?"

It's not. Did somebody say it is? The critical word is "ministers." That was the post you did read. I was questioning whether James Dobson is a minister in the real sense of the word.

"...your pastor isn't paid a salary I presume."

Actually, my church is currently too small to support any full-time ministry. However, the body does give at least the tithe on average, and we manage to pay the pastor's mortgage. When/if the church becomes able to support him, he will take the support instead of working at the Post Office, too. He will not "charge" a salary, he will live on the gifts of the people. I don't say these things because I'm an elder and I intend to make it so. I say them because our pastor is very open with the church's finances.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38621 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/2/2001 8:41 PM
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"Jesus attended a synogogue (sp?) every week...that's a organization and the leaders were supported by the community that attended that "church". "

Actually I don't think that is the case. In the case of synagogues the spiritual leaders were the rabbis, and rabbis were expected to know a trade and earn their living by their trade. They received nothing for their work as rabbis. A good example is the Apostle Paul, whose trade was tent-making yet he was a highly repected and highly placed rabbi prior to his conversion.

The Levitical priesthood, OTOH, did receive sustenance from contributions and sacrifices because their tribe did not receive any of the land to live off of. The temple offerings were designated by God as their portion.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38633 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/3/2001 2:22 AM
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However, the body does give at least the tithe on average,...


Do you really know this to be true? How is it you know the incomes of everyone in your church? No one except me and the IRS know my income.

ShelbyBoy

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38649 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/3/2001 9:26 AM
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Shelbyboy,

However, the body does give at least the tithe on average,...

"Do you really know this to be true? How is it you know the incomes of everyone in your church? No one except me and the IRS know my income."

Umm. Why would I have said it if it wasn't true? No, I don't know their incomes, but it's good enough for me that the pastor says everyone is at least tithing [and yes, he means 10%]. How many pastors have you heard say that? Why would he lie? Kinda a conflict of interest to say that as a lie.

In Christ.

KM



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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38662 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/3/2001 11:57 AM
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I don't know their incomes, but it's good enough for me that the pastor says everyone is at least tithing [and yes, he means 10%]. How many pastors have you heard say that?


None - that's why it struck me as strange.

I have income from two sources that none of my family members, friends, etc. know about. If I was a member of your church and heard the pastor say everyone is at least tithing - his credibility would be damaged in my eyes - because he would have no way of knowing how much is 10% for me.

I don't mean any offense and don't intend to insult your pastor, but this just seems unusual. Could it be that he is talking in general terms? For example, if government statistics show that the average family in your area earns $X per year and there are 50 families in your church it would be easy to make a general assumption based on 10% of $X times 50 families.



...but it's good enough for me that the pastor says...

You obviously have the ability to have faith in men much moreso than me. Whenever someone makes a claim such as the above, I have this terrible habit of asking for verification.

ShelbyBoy

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Author: SBXJavadude Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38663 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/3/2001 12:19 PM
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I don't know. Our pastor spoke of the importance of giving to the church to be able to sustain many of the programs it offers. Money also goes to the upkeep of the church. Since our church does not get alot of money from a national office, a lot depends on the money given by the congregation.

I know that in the Mormon faith, you are expected to give 10%. Of course if I am mistaken on that, I hope on of our Mormon lurkers can correct me.

I just thought fundraising was an important part of the church.

Charlie



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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38664 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/3/2001 12:28 PM
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Shelbyboy,

Lemme splain...

The people in the church I attend are not just a body. They really are a family. If somebody was to be short on rent, it would be confessed, the body would pray together, and the Lord would be faithful to provide - whether thru the body or without. This has happened a couple of times with hardships in the church.

My pastor knows how much I make - not because he asked, but because I'm submitted to his authority as guardian of my soul. Other's in the congragation have presented themselves [finances and all] to the pastor and elders in submission to the Father. Between the pastor and elders, everybodies income known to the proper authorities [pastor and elders].

This is not a legalistic activity. This was not even taught by the church. They don't keep records to judge. Even in the rare times when one is not giving the tithe, they are not approached except to ask if there's a problem with which we can help. We try hard to model the church in Acts, but it is hard in today's world.

At first glance, it looks dangerous. The key is that you don't submit to an unGodly authority. You submit to a proven authority that bears fruit consistantly.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38682 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/3/2001 2:59 PM
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"I just thought fundraising was an important part of the church."

Just to make sure there is no confusion, when I talk about fundraising I am not talking about believers giving free will offerings.

When I speak of fundraising I am talking about any kind of event or function, organized under the auspices of the church whose goal is to raise money. Things like bingo games, carnivals, car washes, building fund drives, etc.

I hope that clears up any potential confusion.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38689 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/3/2001 5:02 PM
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When I speak of fundraising I am talking about any kind of event or function, organized under the auspices of the church whose goal is to raise money. Things like bingo games, carnivals, car washes, building fund drives, etc.


What about memorials? A very small 125-yr-old country church where my dad & his parents attended as a child wanted to install air conditioning in their fellowship hall. First, they needed to install new windows. They got quotes from several contractors and found out it was going to cost $300 per for the window and installation.

Anyone who donated the cost of a window could dedicate it as a memorial. I donated the cost of one in memory of my grandparents and they installed a small placque beside the window with my grandparents' name.

Is this non-Biblical?

ShelbyBoy

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38738 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/4/2001 12:55 AM
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"Is this non-Biblical?"

Well, do you see it in the Bible? And who got the glory?

God bless,

Rich

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38779 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/4/2001 11:09 AM
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"Is this non-Biblical?"

Well, do you see it in the Bible? And who got the glory?


The above is not a "Yes or No" answer. There seems to be some people here who are clear on these matters and I was hoping for a straghtforward answer - but it sounds much more like a "Yes" than a "No".

So when I donated $300 to that church and the church used the $300 to purchase a new window for the fellowship hall (as planned) and installed a placque indicating the window was donated in memory of my grandparents, that was not-Biblical?

Does this mean that I and/or the church have committed a sin for which we need to ask forgiveness? I know of many churches who have purchased pews, windows, organs, bells, and other items in this manner. Were they all acting "non-Biblically."

Is seems as if the bottom line is if a church asks for money in any way and/or if the identity of the giver is made public, then the money has been raised by non-Biblical means. Is that correct?

If a church sponsors a missionary in a remote African country for example, and rebels steal all the missionary family possessions and burn their home, the church shouldn't let the church members know the missionary family needs replacement clothing, personal items, etc. Is that correct?


ShelbyBoy (trying to understand)

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Author: IndecisiveFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38823 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/4/2001 3:03 PM
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Well, do you see it in the Bible?

Sorry to go off-topic, but I see a common theme in Rich's posts. I thought the Bible contained the information needed to attain salvation. I don't see the Bible as a source for all knowledge of the universe. If God has infinite wisdom and knowledge, how can all that knowledge be confined to a book of several hundred pages? Just because an activity is not in the Bible does not make that activity bad or against the wishes of God.

..IF

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38831 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/4/2001 4:15 PM
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"Is seems as if the bottom line is if a church asks for money in any way and/or if the identity of the giver is made public, then the money has been raised by non-Biblical means. Is that correct?"

Jesus says not to let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.

"Does this mean that I and/or the church have committed a sin for which we need to ask forgiveness?"

Whether it is a sin is more a matter of your heart and conscience and I can't answer for them.

"I know of many churches who have purchased pews, windows, organs, bells, and other items in this manner. Were they all acting "non-Biblically.""

IMO, yes, they were acting unbiblically. What a surprise. If nothing else, history shows us that many things the church does are unbiblical. Should we be surprised at this?


"If a church sponsors a missionary in a remote African country for example, and rebels steal all the missionary family possessions and burn their home, the church shouldn't let the church members know the missionary family needs replacement clothing, personal items, etc. Is that correct? "

I don't know what I might have said that raises this question. But no, it is not correct. Paul certainly made known the needs of the saints in Jerusalem in his letters to the Gentile churches.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38836 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/4/2001 4:31 PM
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"I don't see the Bible as a source for all knowledge of the universe. . . . Just because an activity is not in the Bible does not make that activity bad or against the wishes of God. "

But we are not talking about parachuting, bowling, programming computers, or other secular activities. We are taking about the activities of the church, which subject the Bible does address copiously. If the Bible addresses a topic then I think it is eminently reasonable to use the Bible as a guide in that area. And I think both through the verses on how the church is to get money (free-will joy-filled offerings) and the verses about how the church is not to get money (left hand not to know what the right hand is doing, not being ostentatious in giving, not engaging in buying and selling) provide sufficinet guidance in this area.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38872 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/4/2001 9:17 PM
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"If a church sponsors a missionary in a remote African country for example, and rebels steal all the missionary family possessions and burn their home, the church shouldn't let the church members know the missionary family needs replacement clothing, personal items, etc. Is that correct? "

I don't know what I might have said that raises this question. But no, it is not correct. Paul certainly made known the needs of the saints in Jerusalem in his letters to the Gentile churches.


Now I'm really confused. Why wouldn't those saints have just waited for God to provide? Telling people about their needs seems to show a lack of faith according to what I'm learning here.

ShelbyBoy



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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38891 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/4/2001 10:24 PM
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"Now I'm really confused. Why wouldn't those saints have just waited for God to provide? Telling people about their needs seems to show a lack of faith according to what I'm learning here."

Sorry, but I'm the one that's confused. Whoever said that someone in need shouldn't make that need know in the body? And what does that have to do with running fundraisers? Free will offerings by the body is a big part of how God provides for ministry needs. Now if all of the gifts to the missionaries have little tags on them saying "This gift donated by xxxxxx" then I think there is a problem.

"Telling people about their needs seems to show a lack of faith according to what I'm learning here."

You might want to go back and reread the thread because you seem to be learning things that no one is saying.

God bless,

Rich





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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38897 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/4/2001 10:37 PM
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Whoever said that someone in need shouldn't make that need know in the body?

Someone in this thread indicated that passing an offering plate instead of just having church members donate on their on free will is showing a lack of faith.

Passing an offering plate is making a need known in my opinion.

ShelbyBoy

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 38924 of 196275
Subject: Re: Is Bingo Satanic? Date: 1/5/2001 2:19 AM
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"Someone in this thread indicated that passing an offering plate instead of just having church members donate on their on free will is showing a lack of faith."

That may be, but it wasn't me.

"Passing an offering plate is making a need known in my opinion."

That makes no sense to me. If the plate is passed every week then how could it be making a need known? Pretty poor way of communucating a need, if you ask me.

As I said to klinedanner, I think Paint is long dead in this discussion so feel free to have the last word, but I'm done.

God bless,

Rich

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