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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 196243  
Subject: Is Peter the Rock on which Jesus Built his Churc Date: 10/7/2012 9:49 AM
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http://jimmyakin.com/2012/10/is-st-peter-the-rock-on-which-j...
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Author: Mark12547 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183312 of 196243
Subject: Re: Is Peter the Rock on which Jesus Built his C Date: 10/7/2012 11:10 AM
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Thank you for posting that link, Josh.

Even if I were swayed by the argument that Peter was the rock upon which Jesus built His church (I still believe that it was Peter's faith, and that Peter was called The Rock to emphasize Peter's example of faith), there are additional questions in my mind:

1. Where in the scriptures was it established that, even if Peter was the first Pope, that the second and subsequent Popes would be descended from Peter?

2. Where did the papal infallibility come from since in scriptures Paul mentioned having to correct Peter. (Galatians 2:11-14)

3. From reading Galatians 2:7-10, it appears to me that if there is a Pope to the gentiles, it would be Paul, not Peter, since Paul was the apostle to the gentiles and Peter the apostle to the circumcised. And even Peter referred to Paul's writings as part of scriptures (2 Peter 3:15-16). Wouldn't that weaken the argument that Peter is the rock on which Jesus built His church and instead strengthen the argument that it is the faith in Jesus on which the Church is built?

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183314 of 196243
Subject: Re: Is Peter the Rock on which Jesus Built his C Date: 10/7/2012 12:42 PM
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http://www.scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html

Even a pope can be disciplined and corrected. Papal infallibility means that the pope is protected from error when he "proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals" (CCC 891). This does not mean that he is impeccable (incapable of sin) or inerrant (incapable of error).

Papal Infallibility:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

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Author: jimialvin Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183316 of 196243
Subject: Re: Is Peter the Rock on which Jesus Built his C Date: 10/7/2012 11:19 PM
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Good discussion , you two ! Josh , from your reply to Mark , my following question might seem to be mute . I'll ask it anyway , though . I am wondering about another term for the Pope . I have heard many times that Catholics consider the Pope to be the "Vicar of Christ." Vicar , in short , means substitute . What is the real understanding among Catholics ?



... James ....

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Author: jimialvin Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183317 of 196243
Subject: Re: Is Peter the Rock on which Jesus Built his C Date: 10/7/2012 11:26 PM
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Correction : moot , not mute .

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183318 of 196243
Subject: Re: Is Peter the Rock on which Jesus Built his C Date: 10/7/2012 11:58 PM
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When Peter (first pope) was told by Jesus to feed his sheep, and was given the power to bind and to loose, that was a delegated power given to Peter to work on behalf of but through Jesus himself. Jesus therefore appointed Peter to act on his behalf while He returned to the Father. Peter was made the earthly head of the Church, i.e., on this rock I will build my church. CCC 882: "The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 'For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.'"403
CCC 875 "...The one sent by the Lord does not speak and act on his own authority, but by virtue of Christ's authority; not as a member of the community, but speaking to it in the name of Christ. No one can bestow grace on himself; it must be given and offered."


http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_counc...

But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope's power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power. The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head.(27*) This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord placed Simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the Church,(156) and made him shepherd of the whole flock;(157) it is evident, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to Peter,(158) was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head.


The Vicar of Christ

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/peter%E2%80%99s-au...

When I was an Anglican priest in England, I held the title of vicar of the parish. The term derives from the fact that the vicar is a priest appointed to do a job in the stead of the official parish priest. One priest might oversee various parishes, and so he appoints vicars to do the job when he can’t be there.

Many non-Catholic Christians object to the pope being called the Vicar of Christ. But the word vicar simply stands for one who vicariously stands in for another person. A vicar is someone to whom a job is delegated. The three strands of biblical imagery—rock, steward, and shepherd—show in three different ways that Jesus intended Peter to exercise his ministry and authority here on earth—in other words, to act as his vicar.

The fact that there are three images is important because the authors of Scripture believed the number three to be one of the perfect numbers. A statement was most authoritative when it was expressed three times in three different ways.

We see this in the passage in John 21. Jesus gives his pastoral authority to Peter with three solemn commands: "Feed my lambs, take care of my sheep, feed my sheep." Here Jesus delegates his authority three times in three different ways, using imagery found throughout the Old Testament. In so doing he clearly reveals his delegation of authority to Peter.

History shows that from the earliest days Christians considered Peter to be the very rock, steward, and shepherd that Jesus proclaimed him to be. Furthermore, from the earliest days they considered his successor to be the Bishop of Rome, and that Bishop of Rome endures today as rock, steward, and shepherd—just a few hundred yards from the site of Peter’s death and burial.

Does the Catholic Church build the claims to papal authority on one verse taken out of context? Hardly. The three strands of rock, steward, and shepherd are woven in and through the whole of Scripture, coming into focus in the life of Jesus Christ who is the true Rock, the King of the Kingdom and Good Shepherd, and who hands his authority on earth to Peter until he comes again.


When Jesus gave the apostles (bishops) the priestly power to forgive sins (sacrament of reconciliation), the priests are acting in persona Christi. (In the person of Christ)

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183322 of 196243
Subject: Re: Is Peter the Rock on which Jesus Built his C Date: 10/8/2012 2:29 PM
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This is all made up, of course.

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183323 of 196243
Subject: Re: Is Peter the Rock on which Jesus Built his C Date: 10/8/2012 2:31 PM
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This is all made up, of course.
===================
Well, you don't exactly know that, either.

Bill

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Author: Mark12547 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183326 of 196243
Subject: Re: Is Peter the Rock on which Jesus Built his C Date: 10/8/2012 3:56 PM
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This is all made up, of course.

Well, I read through the page that was linked to by Josh, it does give support to Peter being the most prominent of the apostles (though my understanding with things like the two-drachma tax that Jesus and Peter were old enough to be required to pay that tax but the other 11 disciples were probably under the age that required it), but I still question Peter's descendants being Pope. We have examples of God promising descendants of certain people to be blessed in certain ways (e.g., Abraham, the priesthood to the Levites, kingship through King David), but I don't recall reading in the Bible that Peter's descendants would be over the Church and I am not so sure that some descendant of Peter pronouncing that for himself is from God instead of being made up and self-serving.

Of course I could be wrong.

And then we have the issue that since priests aren't to be married, wouldn't this hinder the propagation of Peter's seed among those who serve the Catholic Church?

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 183328 of 196243
Subject: Re: Is Peter the Rock on which Jesus Built his C Date: 10/8/2012 4:13 PM
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And then we have the issue that since priests aren't to be married

This is not an infallible doctrine, but a discipline - very different things. Even Paul said in 1 Cor 7:

8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

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