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Author: jimialvin Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 195081  
Subject: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/14/2011 12:48 PM
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Though this is a dated piece , more and more I am getting concerned with our leadership . I know that Savage is a bomb thrower , but he is right on many things .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXqjQnV77IM
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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167474 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/14/2011 1:35 PM
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<<
Though this is a dated piece , more and more I am getting concerned with our leadership . I know that Savage is a bomb thrower , but he is right on many things .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXqjQnV77IM

>>

Do you want President Obama to give a speech underneath the symbol for the Jesuits. I remember when Governor Brown ran for president many years ago that one of the targeted attacks on him was that he was a Jesuit.

It is humorous that the atheists on this board are condemning President Obama for quoting scripture with the Presidential seal in view, and Savage is condemning him for covering over a Jesuit symbol.

Is the man the Antichrist? Is he too religious? :-) Or is he an atheist? A moslem?

My opinion is that if you do not like what a man is concerning his religion, then you can let it influence your vote, but no man is required because of the office he is in to change his religious beliefs nor to deny his religious beliefs. There is no religious test for the office of president or any other national office. As far as I am concerned a Moslem could be the chaplain of the Congress, but I do not see that happening anytime soon.

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Author: JavaRunner Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167484 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/14/2011 9:09 PM
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What a bunch of carp.

Charlie

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167486 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/15/2011 12:56 AM
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What a bunch of carp.



yet again, my system's lack of ability to do video leaves me out of the loop />:


wish people would at least post a clue


=

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Author: Jeanwa Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167488 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/15/2011 8:33 AM
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It's savage talking about this:

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local-beat/Jesus-Missing-F...

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167491 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/15/2011 2:16 PM
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thanks.

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Author: jimialvin Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167493 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/15/2011 4:24 PM
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Pssst . Did you know that it was Savage talking about all of this ?




... James ...

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167496 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/15/2011 9:18 PM
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Pssst . Did you know that it was Savage talking about all of this ?



don't know Savage, so don't especially care .. Was just curious about the 'This'



... when one post is a blind-link and the response is just "crap" ..i get curious.


(tis interesting how one day people are complaining the president is invoking 'god' and others complaining he's not <g> )

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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167520 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 11:06 AM
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Lawrence,

Is the man the Antichrist? Is he too religious? :-) Or is he an atheist? A moslem?

The report that seems most reliable indicates that our President's faith is that of "Black Liberation Theology," which is what Rev. Jeremiah Wright preaches.

>> So-called "Liberation Theology" is a gross distortion of Christian faith to advocate Marxism, with a promise of political redistribution of weslth, that first arose with the writings and preaching of a Jesuit named Leonardo Boff and others in South America. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith of the Catholic Church condemned this as heretical, and thus contrary to Christian faith, in its Instruction on Certain Aspects of Liberation Theology (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/docum... for full text).

>> "Black Liberation Theology" is a further corruption of "Liberation Theology" in which those seen as oppressed who are to benefit from the redistribution of income are specifically black persons, justified based on the legacy of slavery. Fundamentally, it is racist in that it neglects the many of other races who have labored through oppression, both in their homeland and as immigrants on foreign shores.

"Before the revolution, people oppress people. And after the revolution, the reverse will be true." -- Gen. Mao Tse Tung, on the eve of the Communist Revolution in China.

My opinion is that if you do not like what a man is concerning his religion, then you can let it influence your vote, but no man is required because of the office he is in to change his religious beliefs nor to deny his religious beliefs. There is no religious test for the office of president or any other national office. As far as I am concerned a Moslem could be the chaplain of the Congress, but I do not see that happening anytime soon.

Yes, I agree completely!

Norm.

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167522 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 11:18 AM
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I think you are partly right about Obama's faith being Black liberation. But I think one would also be partly right to assert that the religion of Obama is Obama.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167525 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 11:27 AM
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<<
The report that seems most reliable indicates that our President's faith is that of "Black Liberation Theology," which is what Rev. Jeremiah Wright preaches.
>>

If you had ears to hear and listened to President Obama you would know that his faith is not in 'Black liberation theology'.

Your bias is obvious.

Many politicians put more faith in themselves than they do religion. There may be some out there that have great faith in some religion . . but I have not met them. I have met some that are faithful in the practice of a religion... but that is not what I was talking about.

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167526 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 1:12 PM
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Many politicians put more faith in themselves than they do religion. There may be some out there that have great faith in some religion . . but I have not met them. I have met some that are faithful in the practice of a religion... but that is not what I was talking about.

Obama has yet to choose a church, mosque or Buddhist temple in the DC area. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01...

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Author: Ga1Dawg Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167527 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 1:46 PM
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Obama has yet to choose a church, mosque or Buddhist temple in the DC area.
***************************
Mitch McConnell has yet to choose a church, mosque or Buddhist temple in the DC area even though he has been in the Senate for 27 years!

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167528 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 2:20 PM
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<<
Many politicians put more faith in themselves than they do religion. There may be some out there that have great faith in some religion . . but I have not met them. I have met some that are faithful in the practice of a religion... but that is not what I was talking about.

Obama has yet to choose a church, mosque or Buddhist temple in the DC area. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01......
>>

I would enjoy having a conversation about religion and Christ with Barak Obama especially if he is buying the beer, but I have no interest in where he does or does not go to worship.

We have instructions about how we should worship but not where.
John 4:
19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

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Author: JavaRunner Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167529 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 3:40 PM
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The report that seems most reliable indicates that our President's faith is that of "Black Liberation Theology," which is what Rev. Jeremiah Wright preaches.



He has never indicated that in this speeches, nor is it something I think he would espouse as president.

Please show me where he has done this as president.

Charlie

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Author: JavaRunner Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167530 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 3:41 PM
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But I think one would also be partly right to assert that the religion of Obama is Obama.



What a crock.

Charlie

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Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167531 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 4:04 PM
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"The report that seems most reliable indicates that our President's faith is that of "Black Liberation Theology," which is what Rev. Jeremiah Wright preaches."

Norm, why do you continue to bear false witness?

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167532 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 4:56 PM
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Mitch McConnell has yet to choose a church, mosque or Buddhist temple in the DC area even though he has been in the Senate for 27 years!

Has Mitch McConnell uttered any pretenses about that? Is he the President of the United States?

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167533 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 4:58 PM
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but I have no interest in where he does or does not go to worship.

Except that he has made certain claims that probably swayed a few of the votes he got. That makes it of interest.

Character counts. Even when you're President.

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Author: jimialvin Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167534 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 5:08 PM
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Norm ,


Can my family get some reparations ? We just had to have some Hebrew descendants from that period of 400 plus years of bondage in Egypt !


... James ...

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167535 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 5:14 PM
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<<
Has Mitch McConnell uttered any pretenses about that? Is he the President of the United States?
>>

Has Barak Obama uttered any pretenses about that? He is the President of the United States?

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167536 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 5:21 PM
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<<
but I have no interest in where he does or does not go to worship.
>>
Except that he has made certain claims that probably swayed a few of the votes he got. That makes it of interest.

Character counts. Even when you're President.
>>

The church where the candidate Barak Obama worshiped cost him some votes, I know of no one that voted for him because of where he worshiped.

I like President Obama's character, so yes I guess it counts, but I am old enough that I do not put any faith in the character of politicians.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167537 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 6:01 PM
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Character counts. Even when you're President.

Since when? I don't think a single POTUS since my birth has had any...well, arguably Jimmy Carter did (from everything I've seen since he left office he is a genuinely good person...not the same as being a good POTUS, of course).

1pg

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167540 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/17/2011 9:44 PM
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I like President Obama's character, so yes I guess it counts, but I am old enough that I do not put any faith in the character of politicians.

Kinda cynical, don't ya think? There's quite a list of Presidents of sterling character in our history. Think you can name a few? Miss them yet?

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167545 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 12:38 AM
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Obama has yet to choose a church, mosque or Buddhist temple in the DC area.



He's obviously following Reagan's lead and realizing that it's a huge security risk for everyone else.

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Author: JavaRunner Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167546 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 5:18 AM
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Obama has yet to choose a church, mosque or Buddhist temple in the DC area




So?

<yawn>

Charlie

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167547 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 7:25 AM
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<<
Kinda cynical, don't ya think? There's quite a list of Presidents of sterling character in our history. Think you can name a few? Miss them yet?
>>

The only president I have experienced that I thought had sterling character was Jimmy Carter, but most Americans agree that he was a terrible president. So yes I am cynical, maybe character is not as important as you think.. President Clinton was a dirt bag but most Americans agree he was a good president.

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167551 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 10:44 AM
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The only president I have experienced that I thought had sterling character was Jimmy Carter, but most Americans agree that he was a terrible president.

I agree with both sentiments. Good character as president, though he had a reputation with the Reagan camp for mean spirited campaigning, and general incompetence in the job, thus a terrible president. Also, a terrible ex-president, compromising American foreign policy.

My list of presidents with admirable character and competence in office would at least include Washington, both Adamses, Jefferson, Lincoln, Grant (especially as an ex-president), T. Roosevelt, Coolidge, Truman, Eisenhower, Reagan, both Bushes (junior more than senior).

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167552 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 11:06 AM
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I disagree about the ex-President bit. I think he's been a fabulous ex-President, making the US look good. He doesn't just go around giving speeches (and charging obscene amounts for it) like other ex'es. He gets his hands dirty with Habitat for Humanity. He offers his services as mediator. Etc. He makes us look good, instead of giving inane partisan speeches and bellicose rhetoric all the time.

1poorguy

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Author: TheDuece Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167554 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 11:56 AM
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He's obviously following Reagan's lead and realizing that it's a huge security risk for everyone else.

"Obviously"?!

Let's look at some facts.

He had a "spiritual leader" in Rev. Wright for about 20 years. And Obama abandoned him at the first sign that it would cost him votes.

He went to Rev. Wright's Church for a couple decades and supposedly was completely unaware of the hate filled "preaching" that was coming from the pulpit and unaware of the whole congregation cheering it on.

If anything is "obvious" to me is that the whole religion thing no longer serves Obama's political ambitions. Therefore, selecting a place of worship is no longer important to him.

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167555 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 12:52 PM
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I think he's been a fabulous ex-President, making the US look good. He doesn't just go around giving speeches (and charging obscene amounts for it) like other ex'es. He gets his hands dirty with Habitat for Humanity. He offers his services as mediator. Etc. He makes us look good, instead of giving inane partisan speeches and bellicose rhetoric all the time.

I agree. He's a Christian, and I think he lives his faith.

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167556 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 1:06 PM
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Carter judged a Venezuelan election "free and fair" when it was far from that. He constantly attacked the Bush administration on foreign policy, a no-no.

Among other things. A disaster.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167557 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 1:22 PM
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<<
Carter judged a Venezuelan election "free and fair" when it was far from that. He constantly attacked the Bush administration on foreign policy, a no-no.
>>
Most people of good character attacked the Bush administration on foreign policy and domestic policy and ....

<<
Among other things. A disaster.
>>
Were you talking about the Bush administration, if so we have one of those rare agreements.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167558 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 1:38 PM
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I agree. He's a Christian, and I think he lives his faith.

Agreed...though I try not to hold that against him! ;-)

Seriously...a good man. Probably one of the few politicians I wouldn't mind going to a BBQ with, sittin' down, havin' some food, and chattin'.

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Author: JavaRunner Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167561 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 5:28 PM
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He went to Rev. Wright's Church for a couple decades and supposedly was completely unaware of the hate filled "preaching" that was coming from the pulpit and unaware of the whole congregation cheering it on.


Having been to that church.....there has not been hate filled preaching.

Charlie

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167562 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 5:32 PM
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Most people of good character attacked the Bush administration on foreign policy and domestic policy and ....

Dude. Yet another false moral equivalence. Jimmy Carter was an ex-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. "Most people", last time I checked, are not ex-presidents of the United States.

You know, like George Bush, who is an ex-president of the United States, and who has kept his lips zipped, even though he has plenty of material to harp on, should he want to.

Like Gerald Ford.

Like George Bush, Sr.

Even Bill Clinton.

These are the guys you should be comparing Carter to.

But let's get back to another of your false moral equivalencies:

Ed Koch via Instapundit: “Why do I defend Palin in this case? I don’t agree with her political philosophy: She is an arch conservative. I am a liberal with sanity. I know that I am setting myself up for attack when I ask, why did Emile Zola defend Dreyfus? Palin is no Dreyfus and I am certainly no Zola. But all of us have an obligation, particularly those in politics and public office, to denounce, when we can, the perpetrators of horrendous libels and stand up for those falsely charged. We should denounce unfair, false and wicked charges not only when they are made against ourselves, our friends or our political party but against those with whom we disagree. If we are to truly change the poisonous political atmosphere that we all complain of, including those who create it, we should speak up for fairness when we can.”

It seems that Koch can make moral distinctions. Why can't you? And do you see Koch feeling the need to defend Pelosi???

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Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167563 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 5:37 PM
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"He went to Rev. Wright's Church for a couple decades and supposedly was completely unaware of the hate filled "preaching" that was coming from the pulpit and unaware of the whole congregation cheering it on."

TheDuece, why do you continue to bear false witness against another?

Have you ever been to Trinity Chrisitian Church?

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167564 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 5:46 PM
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<<
You know, like George Bush, who is an ex-president of the United States, and who has kept his lips zipped, even though he has plenty of material to harp on, should he want to.

Like Gerald Ford.

Like George Bush, Sr.

Even Bill Clinton.

These are the guys you should be comparing Carter to.
>>

I did including Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter seems to have a much better character than all of them.
I have no reason to think that Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan, or George Bush Sr. had a degenerate character but I also have no reason to assume they had good character.
Bill Clinton, I have seen photos of the dress and heard too much testimony concerning his character.
George Bush seemed to want a war with Iraq, maybe because of his dad, maybe Cheney was pushing for it... I do not know... but there were some character weaknesses that showed up during his presidency. Cheney seemed to be able to push him around until the CIA agents cover was blown and the relationship seemed to fall apart. I have seen him do nothing since leaving the White House that would lead me to believe he has good character.

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167565 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 5:47 PM
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I'll give you this much. The best thing that Jimmy Carter ever did for America was to leave office, and as such he’s not only the best living ex-president, but possibly the best ex-president ever.

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Author: TheDuece Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167566 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 6:13 PM
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TheDuece, why do you continue to bear false witness against another?

Have you ever been to Trinity Chrisitian Church?


Nope, haven't been present.

But the preaching is both well documented and has been recorded:

Here are some of Wright’s quotes:
http://bumpshack.com/2008/03/18/pastor-jeremiah-wright-contr...

Here’s some more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright_controversy#Con...

Here’s some more preaching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWigzBClEk8


Now, I have been to many, many mainstream Churches. And none of the preaching EVER gets close to this kind of nonsense.

Your typical Church gets in a minor uproar over preachers failing be be careful how they talk about things like: 1) should Christmas trees be allowed in the sanctuary because technically they are pagan symbols; 2) are female ministers Biblical; 3) can refer to the annual Church party in October as a "Halloween" Party or is it a Fall Festival; etc.

If a preacher at your typical Church started twisting off like Wright or Pflueger, there is NO DOUBT the whole congregation would know about it through the grapevine and a sizable portion of the congregation would be having covert and overt meetings with the elders/deacons raising cain about it.

To think that Obama had no idea this was going on is ridiculous.

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 7:13 PM
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Well, let's see.

1. Carter criticized Bush's foreign policy while he was in office.
2. Dick Chaney has endorsed Obama's foreign policy. Indeed, from Gitmo to Iraq, to AfPak, Obama is out Bushing Bush.
3. So where does that leave Carter?

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/41130684/ns/today-today_people...

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167568 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 8:55 PM
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So where does that leave Carter?

That leave Carter as having the best character of any of our living presidents. So much for your point that character matters.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167569 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/18/2011 11:49 PM
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The best thing that Jimmy Carter ever did for America was to leave office



I guess you missed it when Carter stopped all those skyjackings from occurring. He threatened to stop all air traffic to the offending countries, and that did the trick. It's not surprising you didn't hear of it, though; part of the deal was that it was kept secret so that the offenders could save face, because they'd never back down publicly. He couldn't take credit for it and it definitely cost him in the election, and yet he did the right thing anyway.

An outstanding piece of foreign policy maneuvering. Oh, and don't forget his stated desire to wean the US from fossil fuels. Then Reagan reversed it and got us hopelessly hooked, also while giving weapons to terrorists.

So you've got Carter defeating terrorists, and Reagan supplying them. It's not surprising you'd support Reagan over an honorable man.

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167570 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 12:32 AM
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(Kat:) 1. Carter criticized Bush's foreign policy while he was in office.

OK, nothing big. That just proves he was awake. There was so much to criticize, after all.

2. Dick Chaney has endorsed Obama's foreign policy. Indeed, from Gitmo to Iraq, to AfPak, Obama is out Bushing Bush.

That just proves that Cheney is smarter than Bush. We knew that.

3. So where does that leave Carter?

Head and shoulders above any living American president.

Bill

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167571 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 12:45 AM
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I'll give you this much. The best thing that Jimmy Carter ever did for America was to leave office, and as such he’s not only the best living ex-president, but possibly the best ex-president ever.
__________________________________________

Well, he did more to promote peace in the Middle East than anyone before or since - by getting Sadat and Begin to sit down at Camp David and hammer out a peace treaty between Israel and Egypt.

Unlike Obama, he got the Nobel Peace Prize the old-fashioned way - he earned it!

Bill

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167572 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 1:49 AM
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Oh, and don't forget his stated desire to wean the US from fossil fuels. Then Reagan reversed it and got us hopelessly hooked, also while giving weapons to terrorists.

So you've got Carter defeating terrorists, and Reagan supplying them. It's not surprising you'd support Reagan over an honorable man.



but it is surprising how many seem to agree.


seems at times there's only about 3 of us who consider him a good president

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167573 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 2:15 AM
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It's hard to imagine anyone thinking of Bush Sr as honorable, too. He claimed he was out of the loop concerning Iran-Contra, but as it turns out, he was in the meetings and expressed his approval for giving weapons to terrorists. He also recorded it in his diary, and then denied its existence to investigators. When it was about to come up at Weinberger's trial years later, he pardoned him in December 1992 in order to shut the whole thing down.

Almost as bad as Nixon firing his own Attorneys General to escape prosecution.

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Author: commoncents33 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167574 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 5:26 AM
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<<He's obviously following Reagan's lead and realizing that it's a huge security risk for everyone else.>>

And his endless appearances to selected-to-be-favorable crowds, are those not a security risk?

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 8:01 AM
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Nope, haven't been present.


I have, and so have members of my former church. We had groups go form time to time to worship, and none of that was ever spoken. If this preaching was the norm, it was never heard of seen by me, or members of my former congregation.

Charlie

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 8:02 AM
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Who cares if Jimmy Carter criticized the former president? Freedom of Speech....according to you he can say whatever he wants whenever he wants.

Charlie

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167577 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 8:08 AM
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<<
seems at times there's only about 3 of us who consider him a good president
>>

I am not sure he was a good president, was he able to govern effectively?

One of his major achievements was the implementation and support for the human rights portions of the Helsinki Accords signed under Gerald Ford.

He also stopped the advancement of Russian influence in Africa.
Under Reagan and the 2 Bush our leadership there languished and Chinese influence is filling the void.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167578 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 8:12 AM
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<<
And his endless appearances to selected-to-be-favorable crowds, are those not a security risk?
>>

I think you are thinking of George W. Bush, anyone can get tickets or were able to get tickets to canidate Obama's public events.... he has not had any near here since his election.... I expect the audience is Tuczon was not selected.

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Author: commoncents33 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167579 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 8:29 AM
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<<I think you are thinking of George W. Bush, anyone can get tickets or were able to get tickets to canidate Obama's public events.... he has not had any near here since his election.... I expect the audience is Tuczon was not selected.>>

While I cannot personally verify the accounts, there have been news reports that before tickets are issued, questionaires must be submitted with various questions demonstrating ones political views and various demographics. I'm not sure for what else that information would be solicited prior to issuing tickets, but who knows.

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167580 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 9:45 AM
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<<He's obviously following Reagan's lead and realizing that it's a huge security risk for everyone else.>>
=====================================
It didn't stop the Clintons from attending church on a regular basis.

They were regulars at Foundry United Methodist Church in DC - and so was Bob Dole, who took flak from his party's right wing, who couldn't stand the notion that maybe he shared beliefs with the Clintons. (Actually, Bill Clinton is a Baptist and Hillary is a Methodist.)

Bill

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167581 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 10:36 AM
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And Carter taught Sunday School, IIRC.

All that said, and in fairness, some presidents might prefer to use the services of a chaplain inside the White House, with the Secret Service's enthusiastic approval. Indeed, I would think a military chaplain would be in a better position to minister to a president's spiritual needs than a garden variety pastor or priest.

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 10:56 AM
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1. Carter criticized Bush's foreign policy while he was in office.

So did I.

2. Dick Chaney has endorsed Obama's foreign policy. Indeed, from Gitmo to Iraq, to AfPak, Obama is out Bushing Bush.

Yes, one of Obama's several failings this past 2 years.

3. So where does that leave Carter?

A decent, honorable man.

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 11:39 AM
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"1. Carter criticized Bush's foreign policy while he was in office.
2. Dick Chaney has endorsed Obama's foreign policy. Indeed, from Gitmo to Iraq, to AfPak, Obama is out Bushing Bush.
3. So where does that leave Carter?"


Typical Kat, lying by ommission.

A more honest reply would note that Cheney has endorsed one specific Obama policy and has criticized him harshly on many others.

A more honest reply would note that Obama tried to close Gitmo by moving them to a federal Supermax prison and was stymied by Republicans with fearmongering about terrorists on American soil. Hard to believe that putting terrorists in Federal Supermax prisons can be spun as being soft on terrorism, but it was.

A more honest reply would note that Obama has expedited the US out of Iraq and increased troop levels in Afghanistan, both breaks from Bush foreign policy.

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 11:43 AM
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"Now, I have been to many, many mainstream Churches. And none of the preaching EVER gets close to this kind of nonsense."

Looks like you need to get out more then. Seriously.

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167585 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 12:00 PM
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(Kat:)All that said, and in fairness, some presidents might prefer to use the services of a chaplain inside the White House, with the Secret Service's enthusiastic approval.

Well, that's what the Bushes (both Georges) liked to do; they often were at Camp David on the weekends and attended services there.

Indeed, I would think a military chaplain would be in a better position to minister to a president's spiritual needs than a garden variety pastor or priest.

Or in G.W. Bush's case, a prison chaplain would be better yet.

Bill

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Author: WilliB Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167586 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 12:08 PM
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It is a sad thing in this life, but "likable" beats "correct" every time when it comes to the assessment of someone's accomplishments.

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 2:20 PM
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Paul,

Character counts. Even when you're President.

Yes, and he's quite a character, alright!

Norm.

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/19/2011 8:33 PM
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Norm says

The report that seems most reliable indicates that our President's faith is that of "Black Liberation Theology," which is what Rev. Jeremiah Wright preaches.

[massive display of abject ignorance omitted for the sake of common decency]

You wouldn't know "Black Liberation Theology" if it French-kissed you until you passed out.

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/20/2011 9:46 AM
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1. A more honest reply would note that Cheney has endorsed one specific Obama policy and has criticized him harshly on many others.

2. A more honest reply would note that Obama tried to close Gitmo by moving them to a federal Supermax prison and was stymied by Republicans with fearmongering about terrorists on American soil. Hard to believe that putting terrorists in Federal Supermax prisons can be spun as being soft on terrorism, but it was.

3. A more honest reply would note that Obama has expedited the US out of Iraq and increased troop levels in Afghanistan, both breaks from Bush foreign policy.


1. Chaney endorsed a specific policy that Carter criticized when it was about Bush. And with Obama's progressively supporting more and more Bush policy positions, undoubtedly Chaney would now congratulate him on out-Bushing Bush. Example: drone attacks up by an order of magnitude. My contention holds.

2. Obama had a huge majority in both houses and could do what he wanted. Republicans had no power. No, it was the vast majority of public opinion that stopped him, and likely major security concerns expressed by his own team. And finally, he found out the hard way that he could not win civilian court cases against terrorists. So he reacted to facts on the ground, and I believe Chaney would support him on his actions. Do you have a link to disprove? Otherwise, my contention holds.

3. How do you know that Bush wouldn't have done the same, as facts on the ground changed? My contention holds.

I for one think the ObaBush is doing a good job when it comes to Iraq, Afghanistan and Gitmo. Most Republicans would agree. Where does that leave you, Umm?

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/20/2011 12:00 PM
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<<
2. Obama had a huge majority in both houses and could do what he wanted. Republicans had no power.
>>

The GOP could block and did block votes on nominees and delay or refuse to allow floor votes on numerous issues.
You are simply stating falsehood that the GOP had no power!

Obama did not have a majority in either house the DEMs did and there are numerous DEM members from conservative states that are much more conservative than the two GOP Senators from Maine!

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/20/2011 1:50 PM
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Lawrence,

The GOP could block and did block votes on nominees and delay or refuse to allow floor votes on numerous issues.
You are simply stating falsehood that the GOP had no power!


For the first year of the Obama administration, the GOP did not have the ability to block anything. The election of Senator Scott Brown to finish the term of hte late Senator Edward M. Kennedy, in January 2010, gave the GOP its forty-first seat and thus the capability to sustain a filibuster, but only if none of its more liberal members defected.

Which is why ObamaCare became law.

You are simply stating falsehood that the GOP had no power!

There's a big difference between being able to block somebody else's excesses and being able to implement one's own plan.

Norm.

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/20/2011 2:10 PM
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<<
For the first year of the Obama administration, the GOP did not have the ability to block anything
>>

That is not true! One Senator can block an appointment from coming to the floor and some of the GOP Senators did that repeatedly the first year! One of the reasons that the Obama administration was ineffective the first year... the Treasury dept could not get the Assistant secretaries confirmed.

<<
The election of Senator Scott Brown to finish the term of hte late Senator Edward M. Kennedy, in January 2010, gave the GOP its forty-first seat and thus the capability to sustain a filibuster, but only if none of its more liberal members defected.

Which is why ObamaCare became law.
>>
After Senator Scott Brown was sworn in! It did get through the Senate before Scott Brown was Sworn in... The house passed the Senate Version after.
Then the house and senate passed some amendments immediately afterwards.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167600 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/20/2011 2:20 PM
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There's a big difference between being able to block somebody else's excesses and being able to implement one's own plan.

Why should the losers (collectively) be able to implement their own plan? The people had voted for "the other side", so the "other side" gets to implement what the people asked them to do. That they (the Dems, in this case) failed in this is an indictment of them. Every poll I ever saw said the majority (at least 60%) of the populace wanted a public option, but that was dismissed almost before they even began debating the bill.

What the GOP wanted was irrelevant because they lost.

With a mixed congress now, the situation is different. But before the last election the GOP did not matter. (And prior to that the Dems didn't matter. It goes back and forth.)

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/20/2011 2:37 PM
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"Chaney endorsed a specific policy that Carter criticized when it was about Bush."

Specific details please because i believe you are trying to play both sides of the fence by being vague.

"And with Obama's progressively supporting more and more Bush policy positions, undoubtedly Chaney would now congratulate him on out-Bushing Bush."

Cherry picking is a form of intellectual dishonesty.

"Example: drone attacks up by an order of magnitude."

Obama ran on this as a candidate and was critized by Bush supporters so that is a pretty bad example to support your position.

"Obama had a huge majority in both houses and could do what he wanted. Republicans had no power."

There you go with the intellectual dishonesty again. If Obama could do what he wanted, then why were so many of his nominations held up without a vote? If Obama could do what he wanted why was the word filabuster used so much? You are knowledgeable about both of these things yet you ignore them. Do you think that is honest?

"No, it was the vast majority of public opinion that stopped him, and likely major security concerns expressed by his own team."

If I show you how moving terrorists was held up by Republican legislators will you admit you were wrong or will you ignore the response and just make the same false assertion next time?

"And finally, he found out the hard way that he could not win civilian court cases against terrorists."

More intellectual dishonesty. You are ignoring why court cases against many of the people held in Gitmo could not be won in civilian court, because most of the evidence against them came from the use of torture and was inadmissable even though some of it could have came from other means if the suspects were not tortured. Besides, you are also ignoring the fact that the terrorist tried in civilian court is still behind bars on a conviction (one of the 23 is all that was needed).

Speaking of Obama extending Bush policies, how many Gitmo prisoners do you think have been waterboarded since Obama took office?

"How do you know that Bush wouldn't have done the same, as facts on the ground changed?"

When Obama campaigned on getting out of Iraq and increasing troop levels in Afghanistan he was attacked by Cheney so there is no assuption needed.

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/20/2011 3:10 PM
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And now the ObaBush is restarting the Gitmo commissions. Go for it, ObaBush! Or is it ObaBushChimpHitler? We the GOP are squarely behind you!

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/01/20/gitmo-commissions-reop...

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/20/2011 3:13 PM
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You want examples of Carter criticizing the ObaBush foreign policy? Try googling "carter criticize bush iraq", etc. You'll have no end of reading pleasure.

Go ObaBush!

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/20/2011 3:15 PM
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Obama ran on this as a candidate and was critized by Bush supporters so that is a pretty bad example to support your position.


You criticize me for not providing a link, and then...? You don't provide a link. Why should I take your posts seriously?

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Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/20/2011 8:54 PM
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Why should I take your posts seriously?



I was thinking the same thing. Why should I take Kat's posts seriously? He changes the rules with every post. He won't answer a direct question with a direct answer. He is nothing more than the "man" behind the curtain - nothing to see here.

Charlie

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167609 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/21/2011 9:22 AM
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You could just put each other on "ignore" and once and for all stop taking each other so seriously
Ray

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Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167611 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/21/2011 10:37 AM
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"You criticize me for not providing a link, and then...?"

Stop playing the victim. I did not criticize you for not providing a link. I asked you for one.

"You don't provide a link."

Once again I ask the question, will it make a difference. If I go through the trouble of digging up old news stories are you actually going to change your mind or will you just pretend they don't exist and trot out the same incorrect information next time?

"Why should I take your posts seriously?"

Indeed. Could you please supply an address I can send a donation to the "Buy Kat a mirror" fund? After you recieve it you might notice that log in your eye.

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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167646 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/22/2011 2:38 PM
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Lawrence,

After Senator Scott Brown was sworn in! It did get through the Senate before Scott Brown was Sworn in... The house passed the Senate Version after.
Then the house and senate passed some amendments immediately afterwards.


The Senate passed its version right before adjourning in December 2009 (in fact, on Christmas Eve, IIRC). Adjournment of the Congress for the end of its legislative year prevented the House from acting on it in 2009, but bills do not die at the end of non-election years because the same Congress returns in the following year, so the House could then act on the same bill when it reconvened in January. (All pending legislation dies, and thus must be formally resubmitted de nouveau when a new Congress takes office after each national election.)

The election of Scott Brown made it impossible for the Democrats to bring another version of the health care bill to another vote in the Senate, so the House basically had the "take it or leave it" choice of passing the Senate version without amendment or passing something that could not become law. Given these realistic options, Nancy Pelosi & Co. chose the former.

You are correct about the Congress enacting another law to fix a few of the more blatant flaws, though.

Norm.

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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167648 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/22/2011 2:52 PM
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1poorguy,

Why should the losers (collectively) be able to implement their own plan?

I'm not saying that they should.

people had voted for "the other side", so the "other side" gets to implement what the people asked them to do.

Actually, the side that wins an election gets to implement whatever they darn well please. And as the 2004/2006 and 2008/2010 elections demonstrate, those who win with decisive majorities will suffer the consequences in the next election if they misinterpet their victory and do what the people don't want. Unfortunately, the next election often occurs only after the bad policy decisions have taken their toll.

The more I see national policy getting jerked left and right depending upon who won the most recent election, the more I recognize the prudence of the policies that the Catholic Church has adopted for its national and regional conferences of bishops, which have legislative authority within their respective countries or regions. Basically, each conference of bishops requires a 2/3 majority to enact legislation. In our Congress, this would ensure that there is real consensus rather than a partisan majority flexing its muscles.

Every poll I ever saw said the majority (at least 60%) of the populace wanted a public option, but that was dismissed almost before they even began debating the bill.

What polls have you been reading?

I have not seen any polls showing support for a public option. Rather, every poll that I have seen has shown on the order of 60% opposition to all of the proposals that the Democrats had put forth.

But before the last election the GOP did not matter. (And prior to that the Dems didn't matter. It goes back and forth.)

Actually, the Democrats gained a majority of the House, if not also the Senate, in 2006.

Norm.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167684 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/23/2011 8:37 PM
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What polls have you been reading?

Norm...google is your friend. Got this one first try:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10...

This one says 57% (so sue me for the 3%). I recall that more than 1 poll showed similar results, but I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader (if you're interested enough).

1poorguy

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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 167690 of 195081
Subject: Re: Is This The Way It Really Happened Date: 1/24/2011 10:54 AM
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1poorguy,

Norm...google is your friend. Got this one first try:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10...

This one says 57% (so sue me for the 3%). I recall that more than 1 poll showed similar results, but I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader (if you're interested enough).


Alright, my bad for omitting the word "credible"...

The ABC News/Washington Post polls have generally shown a consistent bias. When one takes a poll in a liberal bastion (or in a conservative bastion), one gets results that are not indicative of the whole country.

Norm.

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