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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 22638  
Subject: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/23/2012 9:18 PM
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Subject: Most Israeli Jews favor official discrimination against Arab citizens.

http://www.salon.com/2012/10/23/majority_of_israeli_jews_sup...

I expected some small percentage of Israelis to have that view, but not a majority.

I've said before that I favor making Judaism a condition of citizenship, combined with a liberal conversion policy, the grandfathering of existing non-Jewish citizens, and conferring permanent resident alien status on newborn non-Jews (unless they choose to convert).

But I do think that all citizens should be treated alike, and so long as the current law (permitting non-Jewish citizens) stands, I oppose all discrimination by the government against citizens for arbitrary reasons.

(I'm not bothered by discrimination where national security is at stake. For example, I don't think I'd hire a Muslim to translate documents intercepted from hostile foreign governments.)
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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22123 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/23/2012 10:11 PM
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Subject: Most Israeli Jews favor official discrimination against Arab citizens.

http://www.salon.com/2012/10/23/majority_of_israeli_jews_sup......

I expected some small percentage of Israelis to have that view, but not a majority.

I've said before that I favor making Judaism a condition of citizenship, combined with a liberal conversion policy, the grandfathering of existing non-Jewish citizens, and conferring permanent resident alien status on newborn non-Jews (unless they choose to convert).

But I do think that all citizens should be treated alike, and so long as the current law (permitting non-Jewish citizens) stands, I oppose all discrimination by the government against citizens for arbitrary reasons.

(I'm not bothered by discrimination where national security is at stake. For example, I don't think I'd hire a Muslim to translate documents intercepted from hostile foreign governments.)


You seem to be taken aback by Israelis' racist attitudes, yet what you suggest is virtually the same but thinly veiled behind a "liberal conversion policy".

How is your suggestion different from the Spanish Inquisition's liberal offer to Jews and Muslims to convert to Christianity? (or leave). Or the Sharia law which defines non-Muslims as low-class, right-less, residents? How is it different from denying blacks in America their civil rights? (Fortunately it's no longer legal in America).

Elan

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22124 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/23/2012 10:24 PM
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BTW, the quoted article is a brief translation of a broader article in today's Haaretz -
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/survey-most-israeli-jew...

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22125 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/24/2012 11:11 AM
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How is your suggestion different from the Spanish Inquisition's liberal offer to Jews and Muslims to convert to Christianity? (or leave).

Because I wouldn't force that choice, nor would I take away the rights from anyone who currently has them.

the Sharia law which defines non-Muslims as low-class, right-less, residents?

Because they would have rights, just as resident aliens in the US have rights.

How is it different from denying blacks in America their civil rights?

Because I wouldn't change the citizenship rights of any current citizens, and also because anyone can convert to Judaism, but a black couldn't convert to a white.

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22126 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/25/2012 1:44 AM
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How is your suggestion different from the Spanish Inquisition's liberal offer to Jews and Muslims to convert to Christianity? (or leave).

Because I wouldn't force that choice, nor would I take away the rights from anyone who currently has them.

the Sharia law which defines non-Muslims as low-class, right-less, residents?

Because they would have rights, just as resident aliens in the US have rights.

How is it different from denying blacks in America their civil rights?

Because I wouldn't change the citizenship rights of any current citizens, and also because anyone can convert to Judaism, but a black couldn't convert to a white.


The idea that you don't revoke citizenship from those who have it, but deny it from "new" citizens, such as the new born children of citizens, doesn't change in the least the fact that it is blatant racism. You are a proponent of apartheid, just like a shockingly large segment of Israel's population. Ultimately, if such views are implemented they will bring the demise of Israel.

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22127 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/25/2012 9:10 AM
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blatant racism

Race cannot be changed, but religion can be changed. Discrimination based on religion cannot, therefore, be racist. (Unless the favored religion prohibits people of a certain race from converting.)

You are a proponent of apartheid…

No, I'm not. Just as the US and every other country has standards for citizenship, and treats non-citizens differently, so does Israel.

I'm not suggesting they should be barred from living in certain neighborhoods, nor barred from any jobs (save those where national security is a concern).

Let me ask you this: Do you think it's proper that Arabs should be excused from military service, and blocked from top jobs at Mossad and Shin Bet? If so, then you are the same as I am. It's just a matter of degree.

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22128 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/25/2012 9:01 PM
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blatant racism

Race cannot be changed, but religion can be changed. Discrimination based on religion cannot, therefore, be racist. (Unless the favored religion prohibits people of a certain race from converting.)


Okay, I'll concede the semantic difference. It's no racism. It religious bigotry.

You are a proponent of apartheid…

No, I'm not. Just as the US and every other country has standards for citizenship, and treats non-citizens differently, so does Israel.


The U.S. and all other civilized countries, including Israel, do not bar citizenship on the basis of race, religion, national or ethnic origin. A country that will deny citizenship from native born residents, based on their racial or religious affiliation is an apartheid regime.

Let me ask you this: Do you think it's proper that Arabs should be excused from military service, and blocked from top jobs at Mossad and Shin Bet? If so, then you are the same as I am. It's just a matter of degree.

There is no blanket exclusion of Arabs from military service in Israel. Some serve. Anyone who wishes to serve is allowed to do so. There is, for example, an elite combat unit made up of Bedouin Muslims. (Would you deny them citizenship too? Would you deny it for their children?) It is pretty easy for Arabs to get an exemption, though, as it is for Haredi Jews. As for jobs at Mossad and Shin Bet, I don't believe there is a blanket exclusion either. Any candidate must pass a rigorous security clearance process, regardless of ethnicity or religion. I bet there are some Arab Mossad and Shin Bet agents working under deep cover, and no one is going to share their identities with you or me.

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22129 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/25/2012 11:36 PM
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Elan, you have sometimes accused me (perhaps justly) of playing semantic games.

Now, it seems, it's your turn. I asked, "Do you think it's proper that Arabs should be excused from military service…" (emphasis added)

You responded, "There is no blanket exclusion of Arabs from military service…" (emphasis added)

But there is a blanket exemption. Arabs are not required to serve, but Jews are.

It is pretty easy for Arabs to get an exemption…
Actually, there is no need, since they were born exempt. From Wikipedia: "Although Arabs are not obligated to serve in IDF, any Arab can volunteer"
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Bedouins_...

As for jobs at Mossad and Shin Bet, I don't believe there is a blanket exclusion either.

Can you imagine an Arab having the top job at Mossad or Shin Bet?

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22130 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/25/2012 11:59 PM
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Can you imagine an Arab having the top job at Mossad or Shin Bet?

Unlikely, but not impossible. Such a person would not be excluded from consideration because he's Arab, if he rose through the ranks to become a candidate.

But we're diverting far from the original discussion.

There is plenty of discrimination in Israel on a racial/religious basis. I regard it as an evil that should be reduced and hopefully eliminated. You regard it as some kind of goal to be promoted. It is the essence of bigotry. It is the same kind of hatred that has brought enormous suffering upon Jews in various countries over their history. Anyone who thinks such hatred, discrimination, and violence toward Jews is wrong must understand that it is unconscionable for Jews to inflict similar suffering on others. The name for what you suggest is apartheid, plain and simple. If Israel officially embarks on a policy of apartheid (unofficially it is sadly already there), it will become a pariah among nations, lose all its friends and allies, and ultimately bring a self inflicted destruction.

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22133 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/26/2012 12:44 AM
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I do not view racial discrimination as a goal; I view it as an evil.

I don't mind discrimination based on citizenship. Every country does that; in the US, non-citiznes can't vote, for example.

All I'm suggesting is changing the requirements for citizenship. I'm not blocking anyone who wants to from becoming a citizen.

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22134 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/26/2012 12:57 AM
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All I'm suggesting is changing the requirements for citizenship. I'm not blocking anyone who wants to from becoming a citizen.

You are suggesting two things that are outrageous -
1. That some children born in Israel will be denied their right to citizenship, based on their religion/ethnicity, even if their parents are citizens.
2. That religious conversion be a condition for becoming a citizen for those who would otherwise be citizens by birth.

You are a religious bigot, I'm sorry to say.

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22138 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/26/2012 2:16 PM
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religion/ethnicity

Not ethnicity. Just religion.

You are a religious bigot, I'm sorry to say.

I doubt you're sorry. You're probably delighted to say it, since it reinforces your anti-religious prejudice.

Bigoted means "having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others."

How does that not describe your opinion about secularists vs. haredim?

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22140 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/26/2012 2:36 PM
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You are a religious bigot, I'm sorry to say.

I doubt you're sorry. You're probably delighted to say it, since it reinforces your anti-religious prejudice.


Why would I be delighted? It's sad to see a person who is evidently intelligent be so far from reason. And it has little to do with religion in general. Few Jewish religious people have any desire to force conversion on non-Jews or to even accept the request of non-Jews to convert. It seems to be a whacky idea all your own.

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22142 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/26/2012 2:47 PM
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My question about your attitude towards Haredim wasn't rhetorical.

I really want to know if you think you're not bigoted.

Are you bigoted against evangelical Christians?

Addendum to my previous post: The definition for bigoted came from New Oxford American Dictionary 3rd edition © 2010 by Oxford University Press, Inc.

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Author: kahunacfa Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22145 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 10/27/2012 11:57 PM
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Let me ask you this: Do you think it's proper that Arabs should be excused from military service, and blocked from top jobs at Mossad and Shin Bet? If so, then you are the same as I am. It's just a matter of degree. - stevenjklein | Date: 10/25/2012 9:10:37 AM | Number: 22144

There is an Arab Major at a Military base in Texas who opened fire on a group of people on base -- killing several wounding others. He faces a Military Court. He refused to shave his beard to stand trial for Murder and refused to shave on religious grounds. He was forcible shaved before the trial.

Kahuna, CFA

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22154 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 11/16/2012 9:54 PM
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All I'm suggesting is changing the requirements for citizenship.

You're forgetting than Israel only exists today as a Jewish state because the western world gave it back to the Jews in the 1960's. Without western support, Israel will not exist as a Jewish state. Requiring a particulr religion - or any religion at all - as a requirement for citizenship isn't a value shared by the majority of the populance of western countries. Therefore, if Israel even tried what you're proposing, it would quickly lose support of western countries, and easily fall to the Arab countries around it.

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22155 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 11/16/2012 11:05 PM
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You're forgetting than Israel only exists today as a Jewish state because the western world gave it back to the Jews in the 1960's.

Better brush up on your history. Modern immigration of Zionist Jews to Israel began in the 1880s. In 1918 after the Ottoman Empire collapsed the League of Nations granted Great Britain a 30 year mandate over Palestine with the explicit intention of establishing a Jewish state on all or part of the land. In 1948 after thirty years of on and off conflict between Arabs and Jews, in which the British mandate government generally sided with the Arabs, the British who were exhausted by WWII and their colonial empire in India and Pakistan, and sick of their failing attempts to keep order in Palestine, simply got up and left. Israel declared its independence in the vacuum left behind by the British. The declaration of independence was quickly recognized by several countries, but the only country that provided material help (weapons) to the new state was the Soviet Union through its surrogate Czechoslovakia. The United States, Britain, and all other western countries maintained an embargo on all arms shipments to the new state, and the Jews fought off the invading Arab armies on their own.

So nobody gave Israel to the Jews, certainly not in the 1960s. The popular myth that Israel was established to make up for the holocaust in Europe is simply wrong. WWII was an indirect factor in the establishment of Israel only because it accelerated the collapse of the British Empire.

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22157 of 22638
Subject: Re: Israelis Jews favor official discrimination Date: 11/17/2012 9:40 PM
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Israel won its independence in 1948, not in the sixties. And western nations didn't provide monetary or military aid.

Perhaps you should do a little research?

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