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Author: synchronicity Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 610  
Subject: It's over Date: 12/4/2002 6:26 PM
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The ATSB has denied United's request for a loan guarantee.

Well, I did guess that the decision would come this week. Rah.

In case anyone hasn't realized it yet, this essentially renders the Mechanics vote moot. United will now file for Bankruptcy under Chapter 11, most likely within the next day or two.

If you are a common shareholder, you have my condolences. However, United employees now face a much more difficult struggle.

Best of luck to all,

-synchronicity, disappointed
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Author: JEDIKNIGHT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 543 of 610
Subject: Re: It's over Date: 12/4/2002 8:24 PM
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I hope they keep flying thru April 10th, 2003.

Darnit now I gotta go be a mile whore at American.

Jedi

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Author: ThumperSmasher Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 546 of 610
Subject: Re: It's over Date: 12/5/2002 1:26 AM
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It truly is a shame that the ATSB released its Machiavellian decision before the IAM had a chance to redeem itself with a YES vote, but as George Santayana said so many years ago, "Those who cannot recall the past are condemned to repeat it." We in the airline industry could NEVER have imagined that such heavyweights as Pan Am, Braniff, TWA or (is this beginning to sound familiar to the Charlie Bryan fans out there) Eastern Airlines, could have ever have vanished (along with their pension funds) into thin air! The latest member of the "Not-so-proud-to-be-mentioned-here" club-United Airlines-is truly a victim of its own arrogance, ignorance, lack of backbone (major cave to the EEOC pressure) and greed. I, for one, applaud the decision of the ATSB. Their job, after all, is to protect the interests of the taxpayers (and, de facto, the rest of the airline industry as well). It's a travesty that a company which is 55% employee-owned (over 20% of whom are mechanics) and has 3 seats on the board could not effect a better outcome than this. The chickens have come home to roost, and their guano is going to sour the equity stake of so many "employee-owners" and, unfortunately, the portfolios of many other investors who actually thought that United Airlines could actually make those chickens fly in a cost-effective manner. Hello, Colonel Sanders? (I guess this solves that mechanic shortage problem that we in the industry have been hearing so much about!). As a former Porche-Saab-Volvo mechanic (way back in the day) I can say to all of the soon-to-be-unemployed mechanics, "Good luck making $70,000 a year, with travel, health and 410(K) privileges." It's going to be OK, though-the FAA won't be looking over your shoulder anymore. You'll have to be responsible for yourselves. Good luck.

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Author: jetmutant Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547 of 610
Subject: Re: It's over Date: 12/5/2002 12:00 PM
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Hi,
Jetmutant back AGAIN!

While the "virtually assured" outcome is really NOT what we wanted it has probably just stopped the circus that UAL has become.

To those who believe that management was/is not bad at UAL, in 20 years working on mechanical things (cars, planes and machine shop work) and previous years doing other things to get myself through school, I have never worked for a company that has treated their employees as bad as UAL. EVER!

I don't recall who quoted the P.E.B. but you are right on, but also remember at that time Only Northwest and American had raised the wage to current rates, now even the "almighty" Southwest has brought the mechanic wages in line with the rest of the industry, the only ones lagging now are the ones who went to the Gov't for loans (US Air, America west) So what I said still stands...our wages are NOT the problem ( to the guy who matched our wages against an auto mechanic, GET REAL! When was the last time YOU had face an alcohol or drug test before you went to work? this is a MANDATED on going event in my world! (that I do not mind) While the theory of operation is the same for the engines and electronics you will not "take out" 250 souls if something "bad" happens, pilots do not get to call AAA to bring the machine back to the shop when something goes wrong, You might want to read the Alaska 261 transcripts if you think otherwise. IMHO that was A maintenance screw up that was exacerbated by pilot arrogance (or lack of system knowledge). Contrary to what the general public believes MOST pilots do not have a real working knowledge of the aircraft and it's systems they are merely drivers with a LOT of responsibility (during the trip). There are others under the "umbrella of IAM protection" that could be considered way high for the job description (janitors, Ramp service, stores...)
Also know that even with the pilot concession they were STILL 2% ABOVE the next highest paid pilots (Per Don Carty, CEO American Airlines)

Our jobs ARE portable and while many would opt to go to the automotive industry there are a million other places that we can go. Because we work on so many other parts and systems, this job translates into many other industries, sheet metal, amusement parks, heating and air-conditioning, hydraulics, composites, engines, turbine generators, electronics.....the list is long and limited only by our imagination and particular skills. While they may not have the same pay AND benefits, they are close, plus we can also in most cases get away from 6 on 2 off rotating days off, midnights, forced weekends and holidays and of course crappy management. We realize we are not gods but we are not Knuckle dragging grease monkeys either, those days are long past, so turn off "Wings" and tune into the real world!

We did NOT have a slowdown! We had first a temporary restraining order then an injunction, making ANY sort of "job action" Illegal and punishable by fines and/or JAIL time! Can you imagine? our contract is "expired" a YEAR and we can't strike or even cause a slowdown, yet the pilots Legally did just that and there contract was settled in just over a year (without P.E.B intervention!) The President of the USA even said "There will be NO airline strikes under my watch" how much leverage do you think you have when something like that happens?

The only group that would have been really hurt by the US Air/UAL "merger" (BUY OUT!) was the pilots...USA had many pilots with higher seniority than UAL pilots thereby being able to "bump" them out of the higher paying "left seat jobs" or out of certain fleet types that pay more, mechanics would have gotten the same either way (probably some more laid off though), but the "merger would have been good for the company. Their route would have matched well with ours and we could be "spanking" American right now had it went through.


But as it has been said before all this jaw jacking and speculation is waste time now, the ATSB has "ruled" ( there is the THIN possibility of a sequel though)

MY only hope now is that UAL management "pulls their collective head out" and gets to the business of running an airline not an employee torture chamber!!!

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL SAFE TRAVELS TO YOU WHOMEVER YOU FLY!!!! JETMUTANT OUT


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Author: Triplet Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 548 of 610
Subject: Re: It's over Date: 12/5/2002 1:10 PM
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Jetmutant,


You spout such venom about your company: how poorly it has been run, how you hate the work rules you 'have' to live under, how you could be making as much, or more, elsewhere.

The questions that beg to be asked are -- Why aren't all you self-annointed PhD mechanics leaving in droves to get those lucrative jobs at the amusement park, sheet metal factories, etc.???? Why do you continually complain, yet remain in your 'horrible' job?

Maybe it's because the mechanics are all talk and the only places they can really find a job offer is at Jiffy Lube. Please prove me wrong and show me the 'great' jobs you have waiting for you outside of UAL.

It will be fun watching your once great company 'twist in the wind'. And you will have nothing to say about it as the BK judge decides everything for you.

You will remain at UAL being treated poorly, with sub-standard wages, constantly complaing while all those lucrative other jobs are just waiting for you.

Your actions speak louder than your words.

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Author: jetmutant Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 554 of 610
Subject: Re: It's over Date: 12/6/2002 1:50 PM
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Religious Bovines!!!(holy cow)

I sure wasn't trying to sound "venomous", just stating the facts.
We aren't leaving because we 1) don't have to just yet (we ARE still paid well) 2) We actually do LIKE working here! (imagine that)

What we don't like is to be treated badly buy management that has better things to get done than worry about whether or not the write up that I just made was a "job action" and try to fire me!? What do you think?

I don't like seeing ANY company "twist in the wind" because I know that means a whole lot of people are going to get the shaft and that is what is coming at UAL, and anyone who looks past their nose can see that UAL's "plan" was not worthy, the Government saw it, we all KNEW it, even the pilots (they just want to save their high paying job, so do I but I don't want to underwrite everyone else on the property).
If you WERE to "walk in my boots" for a week you would see that UAL IS losing some amazing talent right now, and yes even ME (even though I may not be all that amazing, there is a job at a power plant with my name on it, working on the big turbines at near same wages & benefits) Some are leaving because they are tired of UA, some (many) will be laid off, and others are retiring....lots with much experience and knowledge (few with PhD, none self anointed...ha ha ha that was a good one....) almost as good as the "others" being difficult because we voted NO, when the Government made it clear that it was UAL's "plan" (or lack there of) that had serious problems (been the problem all along)

I wish you could come with me for a week...I would guess that you would see things different then.

By the way, Mr.. "synchronicity" did your wife ever take advantage of that program UAL had back when? I did, I went on a days "ride" with some pilots...pretty enlightening.I would have liked to "hang with" CS too but they shut down that program before I had a chance.



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