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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 195917  
Subject: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/6/2001 9:30 AM
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Our family has been studing the New Testament for that last few months and this morning we were reading John chapter 10. When I came across these verses. I have read John before, but never noticed these verses. They seem to support the LDS view of our ability to become as God is.

I suppose the reason I have missed this before is that John 10:16 is a verse we refer to as support for Christs visit to the people on the American contenent.

Anyway, I would be interested to hear your views as to what Christ is refering to in verses 33 & 34. It sure sounds to me, like it was common knowledge that the Jews could become "Gods".

No flames please, I just want to know what you think these verses are about. I'm not attacking anyone, but I would like to know how y'all interpet these scriptures. After all, there are no errors in the Bible!

KVJ
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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 42920 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/6/2001 9:33 AM
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Woops, I forgot the post the actual scripture we were reading, so here it is. It's in the KJV.

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

http://scriptures.lds.org/john/10

KVJ

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 42921 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/6/2001 9:48 AM
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10:33
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
10:34
Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '?
10:35
"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot * be broken ),
10:36
do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God '?

Original Word Word Origin
qeovß of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with (3588)) the supreme Divinity
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Theos 3:65,322
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
theh'-os Noun Masculine

Definition
1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2. the Godhead, trinity
God the Father, the first person in the trinity
Christ, the second person of the trinity
Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
spoken of the only and true God
3. refers to the things of God
his counsels, interests, things due to him
whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4. God's representative or viceregentof magistrates and judges


King James Word Usage - Total: 1343
God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward + (4214)&version=kjv 2, miscellaneous 5

Jesus is using the word in the context of definition 4.

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 42922 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/6/2001 9:55 AM
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Jesus is using the word in the context of definition 4.

Are you saying he is useing this context for himself and the Jews? Or that the context changes when he uses the same word for the Jews?

KVJ

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 42924 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/6/2001 10:00 AM
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Are you saying he is useing this context for himself and the Jews? Or that the context changes when he uses the same word for the Jews?

KVJ


It applies to Jesus in this context just as it applies to the Jews. The word applies to Jesus in more than one way while it applies to the Jews in only one. It was a very clever choice of words. :-)

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 42925 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/6/2001 10:06 AM
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KVJ,

I would be interested to hear your views as to what Christ is refering to in verses 33 & 34.

Christ is referencing Psalm 82:6 which clarifies itself, "I said, 'You are gods'; you are all sons of the Most High."

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 42926 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/6/2001 10:11 AM
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It applies to Jesus in this context just as it applies to the Jews. The word applies to Jesus in more than one way while it applies to the Jews in only one. It was a very clever choice of words. :-)

I understand what you are saying, and maybe your right.

KVJ

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 42929 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/6/2001 11:07 AM
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Oddly enough, the next verse in Psalm 82 goes on to say, "But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler."

He was responding to the Pharisees, I think. That's interesting.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Trikki One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 42947 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/6/2001 12:34 PM
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I had the same question many moons ago, and sought out the advice of several pastors, etc.

What I found out was that this quote was referring to the Torah and the Judges. He did not mean gods as in "you will become deity." But that they were the representatives of GOD on Earth; kind of the "if you talk to them, you are talking to ME."

And if GOD said that about mere men, how much more would it apply to HIM, as the Son of GOD?

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Author: BrotherAndrew Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 42950 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/6/2001 1:06 PM
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Sneakpuff,

I suppose the reason I have missed this before is that John 10:16 is a verse we refer to as support for Christ's visit to the people on the American continent.

I would agree that John 10:16 points to Christ knowledge of people in other places. However, it is a stretch to believe that he made it all the way to the American Continent. As most people know, there is a big gap in the Gospels concerning the life of Jesus. We have details about his life as a young boy, but then nothing until he is roughly 30 years old. So, during the ~15 missing years, Christ may have traveled to some of these distant lands as well as heard of them.

We know that people during that time traveled extensively. In fact, people from Palestine routinely traded with people in Spain for Gold. The Silk Road to China was active, as was trade with Africa. In addition, there was trade with southern England for tin and IIRC, Joseph Alamatheaus was one such trader. This is one reason why the British Isles had Christian monasteries before the Romans accepted Christ. There is also evidence that Christ traveled to India and the Himalayans. Therefore, it is more likely that Christ was referring generically to people living in distant lands than to the American Continent specifically.

Concerning John 10:33 and 34; I wouldn't let it go to ones head and become conceited about it.

Praise God,
Brother Andrew

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 42951 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/6/2001 1:45 PM
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I would agree that John 10:16 points to Christ knowledge of people in other places. However, it is a stretch to believe that he made it all the way to the American Continent.

According to the Book of Mormon, he came after he was ressurected. http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/9/15#15

KVJ



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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 42952 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/6/2001 1:47 PM
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There is also evidence that Christ traveled to India and the Himalayans. Therefore, it is more likely that Christ was referring generically to people living in distant lands than to the American Continent specifically.


Speculation and imagination. Highly unlikely that the son of a lowly carpenter would travel "extensively". People like to imagine all sorts of things about those "missing" years when in actuality he was learning the craft of carpentry and studying like any good Hebrew boy.

Also, archeology shows that the American Indians came here from over the land bridge between Siberia and Alaska, not from Europe. There are only two (or three) language groups among the Indian groups of North and South America. Each of these are rooted in Asian languages, not European or Middle Eastern. The first Europeans on this side of the Atlantic were the Vikings. While there were ships that traveled around the Mediterrean and down the coast of Africa, they didn't venture far from land until those Vikings got tired of pillaging Europe.

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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43001 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/6/2001 9:30 PM
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There is no evidence or reference to Christ traveling more than 200 miles from Bethlehem.

Where do you get this stuff?

Jeffrey

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Author: fivesolas Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43021 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 12:46 AM
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<They seem to support the LDS view of our ability to become as God is.>

KVJ
In addition to the other problems already posted with this verse supporting people becoming gods, did you notice that Jesus quoted in the present tense in John 10:34 - “Ye are gods”? Jesus did not say anything about “you may become gods after you die.” I don't think you (or any other living Mormon) believes you are a god at the present moment. But Jesus said “Ye are gods”--in a passage speaking to the unjust judges as living humans in the present moment who had not yet died. So Jesus was not saying anything that could support LDS doctrine of post-resurrection godhood, right?

So as others posted, it would make more sense to look at the context in Psalm 82, where the unjust judges were called “gods” only in irony and judgment. These judges apparently died in judgment, which hardly sounds like a true god in LDS doctrine. So Jesus did not intend to communicate that the unjust judges were actually gods either. What they were called in irony, Jesus is called in reality.

If any doubt were to remain about these judges being actual gods, it would be cleared up with a number of the passages like Isaac 44:8 where God Himself asks, “Is there a God beside me?” He also immediately answers “yea, there is no God; I know not any.”
If God does not even know of any other Gods, then how could God have had a Father and a Grandfather who were gods in there own right?

God bless,
John





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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43031 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 9:52 AM
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If any doubt were to remain about these judges being actual gods, it would be cleared up with a number of the passages like Isaac 44:8 where God Himself asks, “Is there a God beside me?” He also immediately answers “yea, there is no God; I know not any.”
If God does not even know of any other Gods, then how could God have had a Father and a Grandfather who were gods in there own right?


John,

As usual, when quoting Biblical Scripture, there are many ways one could interpet the scripture. While I understand, how you and Frecs see the scripture in question; there are other ways to look at it. I see the Pharasies accusing Jesus of blasphemy because he said he and God were one, to which Jesus replied that it was written in their law that they too were Gods. To me this says that it was in their law that they could become Gods, since it is obvious they were not Gods at the time. Now I realize this is only my opinion of what was being said. I think you too need to realize that the interpetation you are supporting is also just an opinion, even though it may be the opinion of learned men, it is still just an opinion.

There in lies the problem with relying only on scriptures. Unless you have a prophet to clairify how a particular scripture applies, you are trusting in the "arm of flesh" or opinions of men to determine doctrine.

KVJ


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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43032 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 10:02 AM
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KVJ,

I see the Pharasies accusing Jesus of blasphemy because he said he and God were one, to which Jesus replied that it was written in their law that they too were Gods. To me this says that it was in their law that they could become Gods, since it is obvious they were not Gods at the time.

The word "gods" is what tripping up interpretation. When you read the verse that Christ is quoting, you see that the word "god" means "sons of the Most High". IOW we are joint hiers with Jesus. God don't have no grandbabies. ;-)

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43033 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 10:15 AM
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The word "gods" is what tripping up interpretation. When you read the verse that Christ is quoting, you see that the word "god" means "sons of the Most High". IOW we are joint hiers with Jesus. God don't have no grandbabies. ;-)

KM,

How do you know this? My guess is that you are relying on some mans opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong. Remember, truth is not determined by a majority opinion.

If you agree that we are "sons and daughters of the Most High", what makes you think there cannot be grandsons and granddaughters of the "Most High"?

KVJ



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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43034 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 10:26 AM
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KVJ,

If you agree that we are "sons and daughters of the Most High", what makes you think there cannot be grandsons and granddaughters of the "Most High"?

I'll admit, that's man's stuff (maybe not wisdom).

How do you know this? My guess is that you are relying on some mans opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong. Remember, truth is not determined by a majority opinion.

If you are refering to how I know that Jesus was refering to the Psalm, well, I guess we don't have concrete proof since He didn't offer a reference. :-)
I think it's alot more to go on than that we become gods.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43040 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 11:20 AM
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My guess is that you are relying on some mans opinion.

And, you're not? Right....

We are looking at the Greek Lexicon and at context. What are you looking at?

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Author: glampig Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43041 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 11:38 AM
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Sneakpuff,

< There in lies the problem with relying only on scriptures. Unless you have a prophet to clairify how a particular scripture applies,
you are trusting in the "arm of flesh" or opinions of men to determine doctrine. >

Christians have more to rely on than the Bible. We also have the leading of the third Person in the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. What we believe lines up with Scripture and the Holy Spirit. We can check out our beliefs by studying 2000 years of Church history. We've kept really good notes thru the years. So much so that we can identify a false profet from the genuine article.

Recent examples of deceased false prophets: Jim Jones (Peoples Temple) and David Koresh (Branch Davidians)

Current false Messiah: Rev. Moon (Unification Church)

Current false prophets: Wallace B. Smith (Reformed LDS), Gordon B. Hinkley (LDS), Elizabeth Clare Prophet (Church Universal and Triumphant), Milton G. Hanschel (Jehovah's Witness), and Nathan A. Urshan (United Pentecostal Church)

The above is hardly meant to be an exhaustive list of former and current false prophets. The good news is that they are relatively easy to spot. Once these false prophets move away for the orthodox doctrines that the Christian Church has held for 2000 years, they show their true colors. Unfortunately, not enough Christians are well grounded in the Bible, Holy Spirit, and Church history to be able to ascertain the counterfeit. That's why many are so easily pulled away by false teachings.

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Author: azpackrfn Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43042 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 11:51 AM
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Unfortunately, not enough Christians are well grounded in the Bible, Holy Spirit, and Church history to be able to ascertain the counterfeit. That's why many are so easily pulled away by false teachings.

Amen!

God bless,

Dan

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Author: mightywind One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43045 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 12:08 PM
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Hi KVJ,

John 10:16 is a verse we refer to as support for Christs visit to the people on the American contenent.

I realise you won't agree with it as you are obliged to believe LDS doctrine which is based on the Book of Mormon. Anyway, here is the normal interpretation of John 10:16, using the bible to interpret the bible. Remember (1 Cor 4:6) "...Do not go beyond what is written" concerns the biblical scriptures, no others.

(John 10:16) "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

Jesus was first sent to the lost sheep of Israel (those in the sheep pen He refers too).

(Mat 15:23-24) "Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." {24} He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.""

Following His rejection, the gospel was then opened up to the gentiles who are the "other sheep" - the barrier being removed and the two reconciled through His work on the cross (see Eph 2:11-18).

The "one flock" is all those who are members of the body of Christ, the church, regardless of whether we are born Jew (first sheep pen) or Gentile (other sheep). Referring to the church Peter writes

(1 Pet 2:25) "For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls."

To believe that Jesus visited the American continent at some later date, following His resurrection, is in clear contradiction to what is written in the bible. Speaking on the day of Pentecost in 33AD, Peter says,

(Acts 3:19-21) "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, {20} and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus. {21} He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets."

Jesus is sat at the right hand of the Father until His enemies are made His footstool. We know that this hasn't yet happened, and certainly hadn't happened many centuries ago, so we know He can't have returned to earth, specifically the America's.

(Heb 1:13) "...Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"

(Col 3:1) "Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God." [Doesn't say "except when He's visiting the America's"]

Talking about His next coming Jesus said "I am going to come back, but only to another land, but it will be a secret to you for many hundreds of years". Ermm, actually He didn't - I apologise for misleading you(!). What He actually said concerning the next time He was to come to earth was,

(Mat 24:26-27) ""So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. {27} For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

This hasn't happened yet, so we know He hasn't returned since He departed in 33AD.

Looks like we have a direct contradiction between the biblical gospel and the Book of Mormon gospel. But the Book of Morman was given by an angel from heaven, it must therefore be valid and the above biblical verses wrong!

(Gal 1:6-9) "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- {7} which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. {8} But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! {9} As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"

God bless,

mightywind

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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43055 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 12:48 PM
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Scripture and Scripture alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sola Scriptoria

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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43057 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 12:49 PM
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God don't have no grandbabies. ;-)
Nice touch Km.

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43059 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 12:56 PM
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I think it's alot more to go on than that we become gods.

KM,

I agree completely. I just thought it was an interesting scripture that I had not noticed before. I find this sort of thing all the time, in that I will be reading something I have read before and suddenly find something I had not noticed before.

KVJ



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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43060 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 12:59 PM
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Thanks MW:
You just saved me an hour. I was hoping someone to get to the point of this verse. Why is it so hard to see the two sheep groups Jesus was talking about? Isreal(group A), everyone else(group B).
God did not make this rocket science.

Folks do exactly what MW did!! Always use Scripture to explain Scripture. Or in other words always let God's word explain God's word. It really is the safest method.


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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43061 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 1:03 PM
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Looks like we have a direct contradiction between the biblical gospel and the Book of Mormon gospel. But the Book of Morman was given by an angel from heaven, it must therefore be valid and the above biblical verses wrong!

mightywind,

I do understand what you are saying, but you are basing your conclusions on a certain interpetation of each scripture. I base mine on a different interpetation. Time will surely tell who if any of us are correct.

KVJ


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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43063 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 1:08 PM
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if you agree that we are "sons and daughters of the Most High", what makes you think there cannot be grandsons and
granddaughters of the "Most High"?

I'll admit, that's man's stuff (maybe not wisdom).


KM allow me to jump in.
God in His word says He has no grandchildren. He has sons and daughters. Scripture is clear.
.
Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with
his pleasure and will--

I may be wrong but in as we are all adopted we are primary children not grandchildren God does not adopt us as grandchildren but heirs in like manner as Jesus. Jesus is the model, He is a son therefore we are sons.
EJ


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Author: glampig Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43066 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 1:12 PM
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Sola Scriptura

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 29:3,6, &10 "many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible...Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible...because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written".

Sola Fide

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23 "it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do"

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43067 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 1:17 PM
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KVJ,

Mormanism is new to me.
One of the things implied by mightywind was that the book of Morman was given divinely.

Would you mind expounding on that belief for my sake?

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43068 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 1:18 PM
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>>Our family has been studing the New Testament for that last few months and this morning we were reading John chapter 10. When I came across these verses. I have read John before, but never noticed these verses. They seem to support the LDS view of our ability to become as God is.

I suppose the reason I have missed this before is that John 10:16 is a verse we refer to as support for Christs visit to the people on the American contenent.

Anyway, I would be interested to hear your views as to what Christ is refering to in verses 33 & 34. It sure sounds to me, like it was common knowledge that the Jews could become "Gods".

No flames please, I just want to know what you think these verses are about. I'm not attacking anyone, but I would like to know how y'all interpet these scriptures. After all, there are no errors in the Bible!<<

KVJ,

I know of no source that supports the Mormon claim Christ physically came to America. Plenty of scripture has Him in heaven until the rapture and His subsequent return as King of Kings to begin His millenial reign from Jerusalem.

There also is nothing in Jewish lore, tradition, Talmud or Tanakh that would indicate Jews ever thought they could become gods, nor do any orthodox Jews believe that today. Practicing religious Jews are awaiting the arrival of the Messiah. They're just going to be surprised by the nail scars.

Jeffrey

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43070 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 1:29 PM
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EJ,

God in His word says He has no grandchildren. He has sons and daughters. Scripture is clear.

I agree with you in principle, but sneakpuff was looking for concrete proof. To me that would mean a scripture that says "There are no grandchildren" or "there are only sons, no other relationships with God."

One could, if one was so determined, negate these scriptures saying that the "us" was specific to Paul and the Ephesians.

I had to admit that I could provide no irefutable evidence against this defense. Given that the overwhelming majority of humanity (and IMO God) would interpret it the same as you and I.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43072 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 1:32 PM
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Mormanism is new to me.
One of the things implied by mightywind was that the book of Morman was given divinely.

Would you mind expounding on that belief for my sake?


KM,

Sure, The Book of Mormon is the record of two groups of people who came from the Holy Land to the Americas. The first group came right after the Tower of Bable, the second group left about 600BC. The record ends about 400AD when the Nephites were all killed. These records were given to Joseph Smith to translate, which he did (through the gift and power of God) the translation is called The Book of Mormon.

Here is a link to Josephs story: http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-1,FF.html

Click on "The Sacred Record" to read about how and where he got the records.

Now get ready for a flood of Anti-LDS web sites and literature. At least that is what has followed every other time anyone has asked the questions you ask.

:-)

KVJ

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43073 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 1:39 PM
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KVJ,

The Book of Mormon is the record of two groups of people who came from the Holy Land to the Americas.

While I check out the site, are there any other records in history that would support these treks?

In Christ.

KM

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Author: glampig Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43076 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 1:54 PM
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Sneakpuff,

< Now get ready for a flood of Anti-LDS web sites and literature. At least that is what has followed every other time anyone has
asked the questions you ask. >

Maybe Sneakpuff is a prophet. He certainly called this one right.

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/4809/mormon.html

http://www.algonet.se/~daba/lds/cdc275.htm

http://www.irr.org/mit/changod.html

http://www.bible.ca/mor-1830-changes.htm

http://www.utlm.org/testimony/davemctestimony.htm

http://www.catholic.com/ANSWERS/tracts/mormon2.htm

http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/jskabb1.htm

http://www.mindspring.com/~engineer_my_dna/mormon/denpract.htm

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/mormon2.html

http://www.mindspring.com/~engineer_my_dna/mormon/menwives.htm

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43077 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 2:00 PM
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While I check out the site, are there any other records in history that would support these treks?

Not that I know of.

KVJ


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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43078 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 2:03 PM
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Maybe Sneakpuff is a prophet. He certainly called this one right.

Nah, but I am a sloooow learner :0)

KVJ



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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43079 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 2:05 PM
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KVJ,

Now get ready for a flood of Anti-LDS web sites and literature. At least that is what has followed every other time anyone has asked the questions you ask.

Why is there so much animosity(sp?) against LDS?
I guess you guys have some controversial beliefs. I must admit, what I read on the LDS site seems pretty far-fetched. Why do you think the angel changed the wording of the verses in Malachi? I haven't read them out of my Bible yet, so I haven't concluded as to whether they change anything doctrinally.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: glampig Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43083 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 2:16 PM
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Sneakpuff,

< While I check out the site, are there any other records in history that would support these treks?

Not that I know of. >

How convenient.

Actually, there probably are in one of the LDS archiological sites. You mentioned one recently that showed scientific evidence for some LDS doctrines. If you could find that one again, I would like to read it. Seems like your reference mentioned horses skeletons in the Americas.

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43085 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 2:18 PM
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KVJ,

I've got a concern. Was Mr. Smith the only witness of these events? If so, it kinda flies in the face of the Biblical principle of "out of the mouths of two or more witnesses every word shall be established."

Were there witnesses other than Joseph?

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43088 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 2:28 PM
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Why is there so much animosity(sp?) against LDS?

A good question, that I think has more than one simple answer. Here is my list of why I think there is so much animosity:

1. The LDS Church is very successful both in gaining membership and financially. The LDS Church sends out thousands of Missionaries (young men and women 19-21 years of age)Last I heard there are about 60,000 right now. These Missionaries convert an average of 4 people a month. Thus the gain in membership. Mormons are expected to pay a 10% tithing, which is the foundation of the Churchs financial position.

2. Mormons believe, that their church is the only "True and Living" church in the world today.

3. Mormons build Temples and do not allow the public to enter, after the Temple is dedicated. However, public tours are conducted prior to dedication. Most of our buildings have no restrictions, but the Temples do and they are quite visable.

The last thing I would have you consider is how Gods prophets and messengers have been treated in the past. See Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

If the LDS Church is actually what it claims to be, Satan would be doing everything in his power to keep people from finding the truth wouldn't he.

KVJ


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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43090 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 2:34 PM
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I've got a concern. Was Mr. Smith the only witness of these events? If so, it kinda flies in the face of the Biblical principle of "out of the mouths of two or more witnesses every word shall be established."

Were there witnesses other than Joseph?


KM,

Good question, with scriptural back up and yes there were. Here is their testimony:
http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/thrwtnss
http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/eghtwtns
http://scriptures.lds.org/moro/10/3-5#3

KVJ


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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43092 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 2:39 PM
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KM,

You can guarantee that every change made by Joseph Smith effects doctrine in a big way!

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43093 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 2:48 PM
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KVJ,

So, what converted you? Did you have an experience? Were you converted on an intellectual level?

What happens when someone converts to LDS?

Sorry for all the questions, but I've got a few more...

Mormons believe, that their church is the only "True and Living" church in the world today.

Just to clarify, does the LDS consider itself a denomination or an entirely defferent entity from the typical Christian churches? I know of many denominations of protestant descent that claim the same thing even though their beliefs are only slightly different than their neighbors.

Mormons build Temples and do not allow the public to enter, after the Temple is dedicated.

Why is that? So if I were LDS, I couldn't bring my friend in hopes of conversion? - or is that an exception?

The LDS Church is very successful both in gaining membership and financially. The LDS Church sends out thousands of Missionaries (young men and women 19-21 years of age)Last I heard there are about 60,000 right now. These Missionaries convert an average of 4 people a month. Thus the gain in membership. Mormons are expected to pay a 10% tithing, which is the foundation of the Churchs financial position.

Yeah, the Catholic church catches flack for the same things. Well, maybe not the growth part...

The last thing I would have you consider is how Gods prophets and messengers have been treated in the past. See Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

So Joseph Smith suffered persecution? I musta missed that. Is that on the site?

If the LDS Church is actually what it claims to be, Satan would be doing everything in his power to keep people from finding the truth wouldn't he.[?]

I would if I were him. I wouldn't care what they claim, specifically, but if they name Jesus as Lord, they would be under attack.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43094 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 2:50 PM
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1. The LDS Church is very successful both in gaining membership and financially.

Nope.

2. Mormons believe, that their church is the only "True and Living" church in the world today.


Partly. Interesting how sometimes you'll admit this and other times you insist that the LDS is just another Christian denomination. Ya'll need to make up your minds!

3. Mormons build Temples and do not allow the public to enter, after the Temple is dedicated.

Curious behavior for a "church of Jesus Christ" but that has little to do with it.

The last thing I would have you consider is how Gods prophets and messengers have been treated in the past. See Matt 23:37

Oh, yes, lets not forget to mention how obviously LDS must be true because people oppose it! Of course, that does address the fact that we oppose the Moonies, the JW's, the Christian Scientists, yada yada yada but it sure plays the "poor little us" card well.

If the LDS Church is actually what it claims to be, Satan would be doing everything in his power to keep people from finding the truth wouldn't he.


And if the LDS Church isn't what it claims to be Satan would do everything in his power to counterfeit the Truth. He's doing a good job but he won't win in the end!

Truth is, Christianity objects to the LDS Church because it is heresy. Plain and simple.

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43100 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 3:31 PM
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KM,

I have to go work for awhile, I appreciate your questions and will get back to you later this afternoon.

KVJ

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Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43105 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 3:50 PM
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Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 29:3,6, &10 "many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible...Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible...because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written".

Sola Fide

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23 "it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do"


When any book contradicts :
1 Old Testament Scripture that Jesus validated
2 New Testament writings of those chosen by Jesus
3 New Testament writings by those who personally knew Jesus
4 Those chosen by the Apostles
it is suspect as being false.

I certainly do not feel the fool for trusting in the Bible and the Bible alone.

I would also expect the new book of revelation to make a statement that the Bible is not the only true work of God. Satan also told Eve she surely would not die.
The Word of God, OT, NT and any other will be in complete agreement.

We are to worship the Lord our God and God alone. God shares worship with no other being. The purpose of creation is to worship and glorify the creator. The apostle John said Jesus created. Moses said God created. Either one is wrong or both are right. If one is wrong than the whole of Scripture is suspect and why trust anyone? If both are correct then Jesus is God.

To worship Jesus means that He is God or the most fundamental biblical principle has been changed.

We should suspect those who claim a new prophet has a new revelation from God.
I will put my trust in the original Apostles. I will trust that the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself.

We do not worship the Bible, we worship the God that inspired the Bible.

Any writing that states there is a God to be worshiped, other than the One True God, and that Jesus is any other being than the one True God, who took on human form, is false. That is the message of the True Scriptures.

Sola Scriptura
Scripture and Scripture alone


EJ


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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43109 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 4:18 PM
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KVJ,

I'll pass the time with more questions...

This is an exerpt from the site regarding Smith's first vision:

It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other--"This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"

I thought scripture says that no man can see the Father (Jn 6:46). Can you explain this?

In Christ.

KM

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Author: iampunha Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43113 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 5:17 PM
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Seems like your reference mentioned horses skeletons in the Americas.

As I recall it said that the lack of horse skeletons didn't mean there were no horses, and furthermore than horses were only mentioned a few times, and those in passing. It then compared this situation to another demographic group and attempted to assimilate the two situations as comparable. IMO, not a very good job considering it entirely ignored a large part of the mentality and culture of that other demograph.

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Author: iampunha Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43114 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 5:23 PM
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1. The LDS Church is very successful both in gaining membership and financially.

Nope.

Okay . . . Sneakpuff, a cite that backs up your claim in italics, and Frecs, one that backs up your claim in bold. Personally I'm inclined to side with Sneakpuff on this one based on what I've seen on LDS sites and anti-LDS sites.

3. Mormons build Temples and do not allow the public to enter, after the Temple is dedicated.

Curious behavior for a "church of Jesus Christ" but that has little to do with it.

Perhaps they don't wish for it to be defiled? Monasteries, last I checked, didn't allow women inside, or at least in the monks' cells.

And is there not a passage in the NT that talks about certain people not going somewhere lest it be defiled?

Truth is, Christianity objects to the LDS Church because it is heresy. Plain and simple.

Without getting into my opinion of this statement, perhaps it would better prove your assertation to provide a link or a cite or some other factual evidence to back up this statement? Saying "X" does not make X true, nor does it help anyone trying to find out the truth about X.

Facts work better than "You're a poopy head!" Not that I'm accusing anyone of such:-)

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43117 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 6:28 PM
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So, what converted you? Did you have an experience? Were you converted on an intellectual level?

First of all, I'm a fourth generation Mormon, my Great, Great Grandfather knew Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. I thought most people were Mormons until I was about 18 years old. I served as a 2 year Mission when I was 19, from May 1971-May 1973 in North and South Dakota amoung the Lamanites (Soiux Indians). My conversion really has been a life long process. The more I understand about LDS Doctrine and how it affects peoples lives, the more convinced I am that it is the truth. I have had some special spiritual experiences. For exapmle I was asked to "Administer" (administer, is to bless, or heal)to a four year old boy while I was serving my mission. He was playing in the road and a drunk driver hit him. The bumper hit him in the forehead shattering his skull. We (my companion and I) were called at about midnight. We drove from Ft. Yates to Bismark where the boy had been taken, he was in intensive care. The Doctors told us he was in a coma and that there was no hope. We anointed his head and I gave the blessing. I felt the Holy Spirit and was compelled to bless him with a complete recovery. He woke up the next morning and went home within a few days. I have had a few other experiences, but they are very sacred to me and I prefer not to share them here. Besides the reasons I have already mentioned, it just makes sense to me.

What happens when someone converts to LDS?<i/>

They are interviewed to make sure they are worthy, and then Babtized, and Confirmed (given the Holy Ghost)

Mormons believe, that their church is the only "True and Living" church in the world today.

Just to clarify, does the LDS consider itself a denomination or an entirely defferent entity from the typical Christian churches? I know of many denominations of protestant descent that claim the same thing even though their beliefs are only slightly different than their neighbors.<i/>

We believe we are the actual Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter Day Saints. We believe the original church organization was lost sometime after the apostles were killed. We believe Christ restored this organization through Joseph Smith.

Mormons build Temples and do not allow the public to enter, after the Temple is dedicated.

Why is that? So if I were LDS, I couldn't bring my friend in hopes of conversion? - or is that an exception?<i/>

Temples are special buildings that are dedicated as a House of the Lord. Only worthy members of the LDS Church are allowed to enter. Temples are only for certain ordinances like Babtism for the dead etc. We have "Ward Buildings" where Sunday services are held, Tabernacles (like where the Choir sings) and also special meeting houses like the new building in Salt Lake City. All these are open to the public, the Meeting Houses can even be used by non-LDS people for concerts or special events etc.

So Joseph Smith suffered persecution? I musta missed that. Is that on the site?<i/>

Very much so, in fact Joseph and his brother Hyrum were murdered by an angry mob. Here is a little of the history preceeding Josephs Murder.

Violence Starts in Northern Missouri

On election day in August 1838, a group of Latter-day Saint men from Adam-ondi-Ahman went to the town of Gallatin to vote. They were met by a mob who wanted to stop them. The men in the mob were afraid their candidate would not win the election if the Saints voted. A man from the mob hit one of the Saints and knocked him down, and a fight broke out. Several people, both Saints and mob members, were hurt. By the next day, when Church leaders in Far West, Missouri, heard about the fight, the reports had become exaggerated, saying that some members of the Church had been killed. Joseph Smith and some other men armed themselves and rode to the settlement at Adam-ondi-Ahman, where they found out that fortunately no one had been killed. Enemies of the Church falsely accused Church members of starting the fight, and several untrue reports were sent to Lilburn W. Boggs, governor of Missouri.

The following month, mob members planned to attack the Saints at Adam-ondi-Ahman. Two leaders of the Missouri militia (local army), Major General David Atchison and Brigadier General Alexander Doniphan, protected the Saints and prevented actual fighting.

Other mobs were causing problems for Church members in the nearby town of DeWitt. Members of the Church sent a request for help to the governor, but he did not answer. Concerned about the Saints, Joseph Smith rode on back roads and slipped past mob members guarding the roads to get to DeWitt. He found the people almost starving while trying to oppose the large mob. The Saints again asked the governor for help and protection, but the governor refused to help, saying that “the quarrel was between the Mormons and the mob” and that they should “fight it out” themselves (History of the Church, 3:157). Unable to get help, the Saints decided to leave DeWitt. They packed up seventy wagons and left on 11 October. A woman who had just had a baby died the first day the group left, and several more of the group died before they reached safety.

The mobs were pleased by their success in driving the Saints out of DeWitt and by the governor's refusal to get involved. They decided to attack Adam-ondi-Ahman next. Colonel George M. Hinkle, a member of the Church who was also a member of the Missouri militia, helped organize the Saints to protect themselves. Joseph Smith led some volunteers from Far West to help the people in Adam-ondi-Ahman. When they arrived, in the middle of October, they found that several Saints had been tied up and whipped, houses had been burned down, and livestock had been chased away.

The Saints were then warned that the Missouri militia was planning to attack Far West, so they prepared to defend themselves. Part of the militia, led by Captain Samuel Bogart, started attacking the homes of the Saints near Far West. The militia took three prisoners and ordered the rest of the members of the Church to leave Missouri. Colonel Hinkle gathered a group of Saints to rescue the prisoners before they were killed. Early one morning this group prepared to cross the Crooked River, twenty miles from Far West. They did not know that Captain Bogart and his soldiers were hiding by the river. One of Bogart's guards fired a shot, and the fighting began. The battle ended quickly, but men on both sides were wounded, including Elder David W. Patten, one of the Twelve Apostles, who died several hours later. Two other members of the Church were also killed.

Governor Boggs Signs the Extermination Order

Reports of the battle that reached Governor Boggs were greatly exaggerated. The governor was told that members of the Church had killed or imprisoned all of Captain Bogart's militia members. All over northern Missouri mobs were attacking Latter-day Saint settlements, setting fire to houses and crops, stealing cattle, and taking prisoners, but the governor believed that the Saints were causing the problems. General Atchison urged Governor Boggs to come and see for himself what was happening, but instead the governor believed the false reports he had heard and ordered his troops to fight against the Saints. He wrote, “The Mormons must be treated as enemies and must be exterminated or driven from the state” (History of the Church, 3:175; emphasis in original). Explain that exterminate means kill or get rid of. By the end of October 1838 more than two thousand men had gathered outside Far West, prepared to carry out the governor's “extermination order.”

The Haun's Mill Massacre

Twelve miles east of Far West was Haun's Mill, a small town founded by a member of the Church named Jacob Haun. The town had a mill for grinding grain, a blacksmith shop, and a few houses. After the battle at Crooked River, Joseph Smith told all the Saints to move into Far West or Adam-ondi-Ahman for protection, but Jacob Haun did not want to leave his property. He ignored what the Prophet said and instructed the other families to stay in the town. They set up guards to protect the mill and the town.

On 30 October nine wagons from Kirtland arrived in Haun's Mill. The people in them had been stopped by the mob two days before and had been forced to give up all their guns and ammunition. They decided to rest at Haun's Mill for a few days before traveling to Far West. That afternoon a group of 240 men attacked Haun's Mill. Many of the townspeople ran into the woods, while some of the men ran to the blacksmith shop, planning to use it as a fort. Members of the mob aimed their guns through the wide cracks in the walls and the open door of the blacksmith shop and fired many shots. They then entered the building and deliberately killed a ten-year-old boy hiding there and dragged the boy's dying father around the floor, trying to steal his boots. Seventeen people were killed during the raid and thirteen more were wounded.

Years later the Prophet Joseph Smith said, “At Hauns' Mill the brethren went contrary to my counsel; if they had not, their lives would have been spared” (History of the Church, 5:137).

The day after the attack at Haun's Mill, some members of the Missouri militia surrounded Far West. Colonel Hinkle, a member of the Church who had previously helped his fellow Saints, turned against the Church. He betrayed Joseph Smith and the other Church leaders by pretending to arrange a peace conference with General Samuel D. Lucas of the militia. Instead General Lucas took the Church leaders prisoner. General Lucas ordered that the Church leaders be executed, but General Doniphan, a friend of the Saints, refused to participate and ordered General Lucas not to hold the execution.

The Saints were ordered to leave Missouri, but they were finally allowed to stay in Far West through the winter as long as they did not plant crops or make any plans to stay longer.<i/>

After Joseph and Hyrum were murdered, the "Saints" felt they were all in danger and within a year or so left their homes in Navuoo to come west to the Salt Lake Valley. Many died on the way, their story is one of incredible dedication and suffering. Joel Hills Johnson (my great great grandfather, was one of these)

I would if I were him. I wouldn't care what they claim, specifically, but if they name Jesus as Lord, they would be under attack.<i/>

I agree.

Here is a link to the LDS Church Web site, you can find out most anything you want to know about the church there. www.lds.org

KVJ



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Author: iampunha Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43118 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 6:40 PM
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Just in case you're wondering, kristanmaddox, the information SneakPuff gave you is the Mormon side of the story. Other versions that aren't so biased do exist:-)

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43119 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 6:45 PM
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Okay . . . Sneakpuff, a cite that backs up your claim in italics, and Frecs, one that backs up your claim in bold. Personally I'm inclined to side with Sneakpuff on this one based on what I've seen on LDS sites and anti-LDS sites.

I don't have access offical church financial records, but I see all the buildings going up and I know what the welfare program has for assets in my area. When I was in our Wards Bishopric, I was responsible for the Tithing accounting and deposit every week. Our Ward (about 350 people) would average about $8,000.00 per week in donations. There are now 11,000,000 or so members, I am told, but I don't have a link, so I guess I don't have proof.

Facts work better than "You're a poopy head!" Not that I'm accusing anyone of such:-)

True, but I have been called much worse.

KVJ :0)


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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43122 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 6:50 PM
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Just in case you're wondering, kristanmaddox, the information SneakPuff gave you is the Mormon side of the story. Other versions that aren't so biased do exist:-)

This is true, but I would hope the LDS Church would try and be as factual as possible. Since we already know we are a target, it wouldn't make sense to bend the truth.

KVJ

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Author: iampunha Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43123 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 6:50 PM
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I am told, but I don't have a link, so I guess I don't have proof.

Even on anti-LDS sites I see evidence of vast monetary holdings by the LDS church. So I was more looking for Frecs to give credence to her refutation (if we can call it such:-)) of your point. However, the effort was much appreciated:-)

True, but I have been called much worse.

As have we all. Ad hominem attacks and saying "no, it's not" without actual evidence do very little, if anything, to bolster an argument.

FWIW, my nickname in highschool was smellwad.

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43126 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 6:57 PM
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"So I was more looking for Frecs to give credence to her refutation (if we can call it such:-)) of your point. "

I suspect that Frecs' refutation was not of the point that the Mormons are growing in numbers and money, but rather she was refuting the point that their growth in numbers and money was the reason Christians oppose Mormonism.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43133 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 7:45 PM
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I thought scripture says that no man can see the Father (Jn 6:46). Can you explain this?

I don't know what the official LDS view is of this, but I suspect it would be; God can show himself to man if he wishes. There is another exapmle where man was able to see God. It was the Brother of Jarad, here is a link with info on him: http://scriptures.lds.org/inj/jrd2brth

KVJ



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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43134 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 8:17 PM
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>>The last thing I would have you consider is how Gods prophets and messengers have been treated in the past. See Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

If the LDS Church is actually what it claims to be, Satan would be doing everything in his power to keep people from finding the truth wouldn't he.<<

KVJ,


Have you noticed that the OT prophets generally told the Jews news that the Jews did NOT want to hear. They warned of impending judgment and calamity for disobedience to God. This is why they were killed, the Jews did not want to hear bad news, they did not want to repent.

Satan doesn't need to do anything to your prophet because he whispers sweet nothings in the ears of the congregation, he reassures you that you are all going to be gods, you are the only true church. False prophets tell the people lies sprinkled with enough truth to be believable. If Hinckley were to tell the Mormon church that the Book of Mormon is a sham, he too, would be stoned for telling the truth to people who don't want to hear it. Being an OT prophet was NOT a desirable glamorous job.

Think about it.

Jeffrey


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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43137 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 8:50 PM
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>>First of all, I'm a fourth generation Mormon, my Great, Great Grandfather knew Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. <<

KVJ,

Well that explains it!

KJV Numbers 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression,
and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

; )

Jeffrey



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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43140 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 8:53 PM
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Satan doesn't need to do anything to your prophet because he whispers sweet nothings in the ears of the congregation, he reassures you that you are all going to be gods, you are the only true church. False prophets tell the people lies sprinkled with enough truth to be believable. If Hinckley were to tell the Mormon church that the Book of Mormon is a sham, he too, would be stoned for telling the truth to people who don't want to hear it. Being an OT prophet was NOT a desirable glamorous job.

I can see that you have no clue what LDS Prophets and Apostles teach. I think you better read some of their talks.

Here are a few for you to check out:
http://www.lds.org/conference/display/0,5234,49-1,00.html

If your read much, you will see that much is expected of a obedient Mormon. We Mormons as well as the world are called to repent at every conference. We are also challenged to do better, Lengthen our Stride so to speak.

I do not remember ever hearing a President of the Church, or anyone else for that matter say that we were all going to be Gods. I have been taught and heard it said that Exaltation means being able to progess eternally. That I guess could be construed to mean that you could sometime become as God now is. With that in mind though, if God is also progressing, he will still be way ahead of us.

KVJ


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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43142 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 8:58 PM
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Well that explains it!

I would explain some and I think I have always made my history known to anyone who wanted to know. It does not however have much to do with the other 11,000,000 members. :0)

KVJ


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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43147 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 10:28 PM
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<<I thought scripture says that no man can see the Father (Jn 6:46).>>

1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.


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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43148 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 10:36 PM
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<<Have you noticed that the OT prophets generally told the Jews news that the Jews did NOT want to hear. They warned of impending judgment and calamity for disobedience to God. This is why they were killed, the Jews did not want to hear bad news, they did not want to repent.

Satan doesn't need to do anything to your prophet because he whispers sweet nothings in the ears of the congregation, he reassures you that you are all going to be gods, you are the only true church. False prophets tell the people lies sprinkled with enough truth to be believable. If Hinckley were to tell the Mormon church that the Book of Mormon is a sham, he too, would be stoned for telling the truth to people who don't want to hear it. Being an OT prophet was NOT a desirable glamorous job.

Think about it.

Jeffrey>>

While this may be true about the mormons? I do not know, I have never been to a service or met the prophet. This is true in some of mainline protestant churches I have been in. The preacher, pastor, priest, whatever does not tell the congregation they are wrong in their beliefs. They will seldom rebuke the congrgation about anything.


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Author: BrotherAndrew Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43153 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 11:22 PM
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Frecs,

Highly unlikely that the son of a lowly carpenter would travel "extensively".

I agree, it is highly unlikely. However, how likely is it that a lowly carpenters son is Christ?

So, I wouldn't rule out that Jesus did travel between England and India. It is not impossible as there were plently of other people during the time who did make such travels. Never the less, I suspect that some of the India legends are motivated by Buddist who would like us to believe that Christ learned everything from Budda. This seems far fetched to me, since from what I know the resemblences are minor.

Praise God,
Brother Andrew

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Author: BrotherAndrew Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43154 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/7/2001 11:34 PM
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Jeffrey,

Where do you get this stuff?

The India thing has been around for a while. I have seen books in bookstores which make the claim. (I never bought the books or read them entirely.)

As far as the travels to England, I heard part of a TV documentary on Jesus which talked about Joseph of Arimathea and the tin trade with Southern England in the Stonehendge area. There were distractions in my house at the time (Three girls 3 years and under!) so I wasn't able to hear the complete story. However, they were trying to make a point that the druids adopted several Christians beliefs before any Christian Missionaries visited and before the Romans had converted. Hence, the speculation was the Christ must have visited southern England with Joseph of Arimathea as part of a tin trading trip. Alternativly, one of the original Apostles may have. Also, there are old testament references to traveling to Spain for Gold so it is not out of the question that a Tin trade existed between the middle east and Southern England.

Praise God,
Brother Andrew

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43159 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 8:24 AM
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Nope.

Okay . . . Sneakpuff, a cite that backs up your claim in italics, and Frecs, one that backs up your claim in bold. Personally I'm inclined to side with Sneakpuff on this one based on what I've seen on LDS sites and anti-LDS sites.


What? You want me to prove that Christians aren't against Mormons because they are growing or financially well off? Can't prove a negative. Prove to me that we are jealous.

Perhaps they don't wish for it to be defiled? Monasteries, last I checked, didn't allow women inside, or at least in the monks' cells.

And is there not a passage in the NT that talks about certain people not going somewhere lest it be defiled?


Ummm, seems Jesus wasn't worried about being defiled by the people he hung out with. And, I don't know to what you are referring in your second comment.

Without getting into my opinion of this statement, perhaps it would better prove your assertation to provide a link or a cite or some other factual evidence to back up this statement? Saying "X" does not make X true, nor does it help anyone trying to find out the truth about X.


I have done that ad nausieum on the board. I don't intend to repeat it. If you missed it, use the search feature to find the relevant threads. I'm not trying to be snotty or short with you, I'm just not in the mood to repeat what I've said 100 times already.

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43160 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 8:28 AM
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This is true, but I would hope the LDS Church would try and be as factual as possible. Since we already know we are a target, it wouldn't make sense to bend the truth.

KVJ


That would apply only if the LDS Church were the Church of Jesus Christ. If its not, then it has a different leader and a different purpose and no reason to be truthful......

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Author: mightywind One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43163 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 8:58 AM
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Hi KVJ,

That I guess could be construed to mean that you could sometime become as God now is. With that in mind though, if God is also progressing, he will still be way ahead of us.

God's redeptive plan for mankind unfolds (progresses) over time, however, God Himself is immutable - He doesn't "progress". Remember He occupies eternity, and therefore is outside time. The word "progress" is intrinsically linked with the concept of time.

I'd be interested to know how LDS beliefs fit in with the following scriptures:

(Heb 1:10-12) "He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. {11} They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. {12} You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.""

(Psa 102:24-27) "So I said: "Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations. {25} In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. {26} They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. {27} But you remain the same, and your years will never end."

(James 1:17) "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

(Mal 3:6) ""I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."

Also, Deuteronomy 6:4 states that the Lord our God is "one". Not only does this mean how we normally think of it, as saying there is one God, it goes further by meaning that He is absolutely alone and unique in His nature.

(Deu 6:4) "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

God bless,

mightywind


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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43168 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 9:56 AM
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mightywind,

Would you agree that the scriptures you cite are all in the context of God creating this earth and speaking to man here on earth? If so, then the obvious answer is that we are not capable of understanding the infinity of Gods works, his time or how our time and perspective are compared to Gods time. We have a struggle just understanding all his word to us here at this time, let alone anything else God may be doing. To us, there is only one Godhead and that, Jesus Christ, is our only God.

KVJ

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43172 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 10:39 AM
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KVJ,

I asked:
So Joseph Smith suffered persecution? I musta missed that. Is that on the site?

You answered:
Very much so, in fact Joseph and his brother Hyrum were murdered by an angry mob. Here is a little of the history preceeding Josephs Murder.

The more I thought about this, the less I believed that suffering is a proof of Truth. Not that you were presenting it as such.

It occured to me that Koresh and others have suffered "persecution" too. That invalidates suffering as a proof of Truth.

Sorry for the rabbit trail.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43174 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 11:07 AM
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The more I thought about this, the less I believed that suffering is a proof of Truth.

I agree, persecution doesn't prove anything, it does show the dedication of the people being persecuted. Even that doesn't prove the dedication is to Gods will.

One of the "signs" as I read the scriptures of a prophet, or organiztion being of God, is their "Fruits". This is a big part of why I believe the LDS Church is true. The fruits born by those who live the gospel according to the LDS Church are truly "Good Fruits" by any measure I can think of. If you look of "Good Fruits" amoung the likes of David Koresh, or Jim Jones, they are pretty hard to find.

KVJ

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43178 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 11:42 AM
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KVJ,

We anointed his head and I gave the blessing. I felt the Holy Spirit and was compelled to bless him with a complete recovery. He woke up the next morning and went home within a few days.

Praise the Lord who works miracles regardless of us!!!

They are interviewed to make sure they are worthy...

You had to know I'd have questions about this one...
How does one "make sure" of another's worthiness? And before we get too far, would you mind defining "worthy"? Must someone be deemed "worthy" to enter heaven?

We believe we are the actual Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter Day Saints. We believe the original church organization was lost sometime after the apostles were killed. We believe Christ restored this organization through Joseph Smith.

This reminded me of a question I had wanted to ask. From what language were the documents originally translated? Or do we know? Did Joseph Smith translate the record directly from these gold tablets? - or did he copy them onto something else and then translate?

Only worthy members of the LDS Church are allowed to enter.

Are there such things as unworthy members of LDS? Are there varying degrees of worthiness?



My main and most important question is about salvation. Do you and LDS believe and preach that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation? - that He died and rose again becoming the "first born from among the dead"? - and that by His sacrifice, not of our works, all sin is forgiven?

If you do, then you are my brother. Nothing else matters so greatly as this.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43187 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 1:02 PM
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KVJ,

One of the "signs" as I read the scriptures of a prophet, or organiztion being of God, is their "Fruits". This is a big part of why I believe the LDS Church is true. The fruits born by those who live the gospel according to the LDS Church are truly "Good Fruits" by any measure I can think of. If you look of "Good Fruits" amoung the likes of David Koresh, or Jim Jones, they are pretty hard to find.

I definitely believe in "fruit inspection". There are a couple of problems even with looking for fuit.

Conversions are not necessarily fruit because you can convert people to anything.

To inspect the quality of fruit, you must know the bearer of the fruit very well. Otherwise, that fruit can be fake. Even in situations where people have spent many years with a person they were still fooled by false fruit. One must also seek God first rather than the bearer of the fruit.

What I'm saying is that for leaders that stay "out of reach", it is impossible to judge accurately the fruit they bear. I've know "leaders" from both sides of this fence. Some think that they cannot be good pastors and still have friends within the congregation. (Methodist seminary teaches this) I've also known people like my current pastor who make it a point to open their lives for all to see the good and bad - not just the not-so-bad.

There is definitely no better way for the masses to have proven leadership, though.

In Christ.

KM



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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43188 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 1:11 PM
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My main and most important question is about salvation. Do you and LDS believe and preach that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation? - that He died and rose again becoming the "first born from among the dead"? - and that by His sacrifice, not of our works, all sin is forgiven?

If you do, then you are my brother. Nothing else matters so greatly as this.

In Christ.

KM


Not so fast, KM. Ask him to define who they say Jesus Christ was/is. If Sneakpuff is willing to give you the truth about what they believe about Jesus you will see that their "Jesus" is not the same as our "Jesus". It matters a great deal upon which Jesus you place your faith.

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43191 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 1:34 PM
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You had to know I'd have questions about this one...
How does one "make sure" of another's worthiness? And before we get too far, would you mind defining "worthy"? Must someone be deemed "worthy" to enter heaven?


The interview is for babtism, not entrance into heaven. Some of the interview questions would be: Do you keep the Word of Wisdom? (use of alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea, is forbidden)Are you moraly clean? (premarital sex, etc. is forbidden)There would also be some simple doctrinal questions to be sure the person actually understands what they are committing to.

From what language were the documents originally translated? Or do we know? Did Joseph Smith translate the record directly from these gold tablets? - or did he copy them onto something else and then translate?

I don't know for sure, but I think it was something like reformed Egyptian. Joseph translated by looking at the characters through what is called the Urim and Thummim. He would read aloud the translation and Oliver Cowdery would write down what Joseph said.

Are there such things as unworthy members of LDS? Are there varying degrees of worthiness?

Yes and yes. For exapmle, if you want to attend the Temple, you need a Temple recomend. There are two interviews to get a recomend, one with your Bishop and one with your Stake President. They each must sign the recomend saying you are worthy to enter the Temple. A member of the LDS Church can actually be excommunicated for serious sins like Adultry, Polygamy, committing a feloney etc.

My main and most important question is about salvation. Do you and LDS believe and preach that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation? - that He died and rose again becoming the "first born from among the dead"? - and that by His sacrifice, not of our works, all sin is forgiven?

Yes this is what we believe, with one clairication. That being repenatce is required for foregivness. We beieve we are saved from death, regardless of whether we repent or not, through Christs sacrifice. But that Salvation, has nothing to do with judgement day, when we will be judged according to our works. That judgement will determine our eternal residence.

If you do, then you are my brother. Nothing else matters so greatly as this.

I agree.



KVJ








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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43192 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 1:38 PM
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KM,

<i?I definitely believe in "fruit inspection". There are a couple of problems even with looking for fuit.

Conversions are not necessarily fruit because you can convert people to anything.

To inspect the quality of fruit, you must know the bearer of the fruit very well. Otherwise, that fruit can be fake. Even in situations where people have spent many years with a person they were still fooled by false fruit. One must also seek God first rather than the bearer of the fruit.

What I'm saying is that for leaders that stay "out of reach", it is impossible to judge accurately the fruit they bear. I've know "leaders" from both sides of this fence. Some think that they cannot be good pastors and still have friends within the congregation. (Methodist seminary teaches this) I've also known people like my current pastor who make it a point to open their lives for all to see the good and bad - not just the not-so-bad.

There is definitely no better way for the masses to have proven leadership, though.

I agree completely.

KVJ


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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43194 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 2:04 PM
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KVJ,

Frecs asked me to pose the following for you to answer:
Ask him to define who they say Jesus Christ was/is. If Sneakpuff is willing to give you the truth about what they believe about Jesus you will see that their "Jesus" is not the same as our "Jesus". It matters a great deal upon which Jesus you place your faith.

Would you please clarify what she's talking about?

We beieve we are saved from death, regardless of whether we repent or not, through Christs sacrifice. But that Salvation, has nothing to do with judgement day, when we will be judged according to our works. That judgement will determine our eternal residence.

I think we're using the same words in different applications. Allow me to ask some clarifying questions...

What did you mean by "we are saved from death" as compared to "determine our residence"? As a Christian, I believe that the "saved from death" part determines my residence, but I hear something different in your post.

Obviously, the death you're speaking of is not the physical one. Please clarify that.

Lastly, you seemed to be saying that on judgement day, where we spend eternity is decided by God based on our works - is that right?

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43196 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 2:17 PM
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If you do, then you are my brother. Nothing else matters so greatly as this.

I agree.



KVJ


No you don't! YOu've admitted that in other posts! You no more consider us "Christians" than we do you!

Deceit is not of God.

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43201 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 2:56 PM
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Obviously, the death you're speaking of is not the physical one. Please clarify that.

Lastly, you seemed to be saying that on judgement day, where we spend eternity is decided by God based on our works - is that right?


Yes, I was speaking of salvation as being saved from physical death. I also believe our works will determine our eternal reward, or where we will live. It is dificult to explain the entire LDS beliefs regarding the plan of salvation on a discussion board. I will search the web site to see if I can find a page on that subject. But here is a link to Alma Chaper 40, it deals with this subject: http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/40/12#12

As far as who Jesus Christ is, to me he is:
I AM, the creator of this world,
The only begotten of the Father in the flesh,
My savior, My redeemer and my Eldest Brother.

KVJ


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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43203 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 2:57 PM
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Frecs,

No you don't! YOu've admitted that in other posts! You no more consider us "Christians" than we do you!

Deceit is not of God.


Chill....

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43205 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 3:02 PM
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As far as who Jesus Christ is, to me he is:
I AM, the creator of this world,
The only begotten of the Father in the flesh,
My savior, My redeemer and my Eldest Brother.

KVJ


KM,

Since Sneakpuff is afraid to give the full truth of who he and the Mormon church say Jesus is and I don't have time to search for his post where he does break down and tell (he/they are very reluctant for some reason....go figure), here's the truth:

They believe that God the Father was a man who became a god. They believe the Jesus was a man (son of God--note little "s") who became a god. They believe that likewise they are men (sons of God) who can become gods.

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43206 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 3:03 PM
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Frecs,

No you don't! YOu've admitted that in other posts! You no more consider us "Christians" than we do you!

Deceit is not of God.

Chill....

In Christ.

KM


WODR, no.

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43209 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 3:17 PM
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KVJ,

Yes, I was speaking of salvation as being saved from physical death.

So, there's only been two people saved? (Enoch, Elijah)

I also believe our works will determine our eternal reward, or where we will live.

To me, rewards and residences are two seperate results. Location is a result of faith. Rewards are the result of the relationship.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43210 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 3:24 PM
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What does "WODR" mean?

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43212 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 3:30 PM
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"WODR" = With All Due Respect

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Author: klinedanner Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43214 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 3:41 PM
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"WODR" = With All Due Respect

Then shouldn't it be "WADR" instead of "WODR?" I think "WODR" would be a good shortcut for "WithOut Due Respect"......



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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43215 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 3:43 PM
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WODR" = With All Due Respect

Then shouldn't it be "WADR" instead of "WODR?" I think "WODR" would be a good shortcut for "WithOut Due Respect"......


I was wondering too...

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43216 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 3:45 PM
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So, there's only been two people saved? (Enoch, Elijah)

I don't know who has or has not been saved, or ressurected. If I remember correctly when Christ was ressurected, "the graves of many of the dead were opened" and many ressurected persons were seen.

Now let me ask you a few questions using your definition of being saved. What happened to Judas? Will he be saved? What about the Billions of persons who have never even heard of Jesus Christ? Will they be saved? When Christ said to the thief on the cross next to him, that tomorrow he would be in paradise, where is and what is paradise? What about the spirit prison as spoken in 1 Peter, 3:19? Shouldn't Christs Plan of Salvation encompass all these questions?

I think we are talking about the same thing whether or not different rewards are in different places or not, I do not know. LDS Doctrine speaks of degrees of glory; Telestial, Terresteral and Celestial. I always thought they were different places, but upon reflection, that is not something I'm sure about.

KVJ


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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43218 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 3:47 PM
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"WODR" = With All Due Respect

Then shouldn't it be "WADR" instead of "WODR?" I think "WODR" would be a good shortcut for "WithOut Due Respect"......


<blushing>

Ya gotta use a South'rn accent "With Oll Due Raspect" ;-)

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43222 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 4:28 PM
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KVJ,

I don't know who has or has not been saved, or ressurected. If I remember correctly when Christ was ressurected, "the graves of many of the dead were opened" and many ressurected persons were seen. ?

Wait, if somebody dies, they've experienced physical death whether or not they are ressurected later. Oh, I see - you believe that salvation is deliverence from staying dead, right?

Now let me ask you a few questions using your definition of being saved. What happened to Judas? Will he be saved

IMO, he died and will be judged and condemned before the Great White Throne Judgement. I hope I'm wrong.

What about the Billions of persons who have never even heard of Jesus Christ? Will they be saved?

If they have lived since Christ died, unfortunately, they will be condemned at the Great White Throne.
If they lived and died before Christ they were under a different convenant that I can't describe fully.

When Christ said to the thief on the cross next to him, that tomorrow he would be in paradise, where is and what is paradise?

Tahiti... kidding
The thief died before Christ. He was immediately transported (soul and spirit) to paradise (Abraham's boosom). I don't know it's location, but when Christ died, His spirit and soul went to sheol and His soul was tormented for three days while His spirit went and preached Himself to those in captivity in Abraham's boosom.
Paradise is no more because the old covenant is no more. Now, when believers die we go to heaven immediately.

Shouldn't Christs Plan of Salvation encompass all these questions?

It does.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: glampig Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43224 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 4:34 PM
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Frecs,

< Since Sneakpuff is afraid to give the full truth of who he and the Mormon church say Jesus is and I don't have time to search for
his post where he does break down and tell (he/they are very reluctant for some reason....go figure), here's the truth:

They believe that God the Father was a man who became a god. They believe the Jesus was a man (son of God--note little "s")
who became a god. They believe that likewise they are men (sons of God) who can become gods. >

mormon beliefs are actually much more heretical than they appear on the surface:

"How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:333).

"Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow---three in one and one in three...It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God---he would be a giant or a monster" (Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church 6:476).

"I have always declared God to be a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Ibid., 6:474).

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man...I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in a form---like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1973 ed., p. 345).

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, the Son also" (D&C 130:22)

"The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father of the Son" (Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed., p. 752).

"The Prophet also taught...that there is 'a god above the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.'...if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that he had a Father also?" (Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed., p. 577).

"God undoubtedly took advantage of every opportunity to learn the laws of truth and as He became acquainted with each new veriety He righteously obeyed it...As He gained more knowledge through persistent effort and continuous industry, as well as through absolute obedience, His understanding of the universal laws continued to become more complete...until He attained the status of Godhood...He became God by absolute obedience to all the eternal laws of the Gospel" (The Gospel Through the Ages, pp. 114-115).

"Implicit in the Christian veriety that all men are the spirit children of an Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of an Eternal Mother. An exalted and glorified Man of Holiness (Moses 6:57) could not be a Father unless a Woman of like glory, perfection, and holiness was associated with him as a Mother" (Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed., p. 516).

"...the universe is filled with vast numbers of intelligences...Elohim is God simply because all of these intelligences honor and sustain Him as such...if He [God] should ever do anything to violate the confidence or 'sense of justice' of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support, and the 'power' of God would disintegrate" (Former BYU Prof. W. Cleon Skousen, The First 2000 Years, p. 355).

Interestingly enough, these ideas are neither new nor unique. Christians have been standing against this type of blasphemy for 20 centuries. But the gates of hell will never prevail against the Bride of Christ!!!
Good fortune. Rick, the glampig




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Author: ServeHim Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43229 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 5:09 PM
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mormon beliefs are actually much more heretical than they appear on the surface:

I have read that when you boil it down to its common element, all heresies and cults begin with a redefining of the nature of God.

When one stops and thinks about this, it makes perfectly good sense. Cults always put their faith and trust in a figure/person/belief, not in God only, as the Bible reveals. This really is the first commandment, that God is a jealous God.

Rick


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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43239 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 5:47 PM
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Rick,

I am by no means an expert or scholar on Mormon Doctrine. But of all the quotes you posted, here are the ones I have heard and been led to believe are doctrine.

I have always declared God to be a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Ibid., 6:474).

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man...I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in a form---like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1973 ed., p. 345).

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, the Son also" (D&C 130:22)

"The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father of the Son" (Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed., p. 752).

God undoubtedly took advantage of every opportunity to learn the laws of truth and as He became acquainted with each new veriety He righteously obeyed it...As He gained more knowledge through persistent effort and continuous industry, as well as through absolute obedience, His understanding of the universal laws continued to become more complete...until He attained the status of Godhood...He became God by absolute obedience to all the eternal laws of the Gospel" (The Gospel Through the Ages, pp. 114-115).

"Implicit in the Christian veriety that all men are the spirit children of an Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of an Eternal Mother. An exalted and glorified Man of Holiness (Moses 6:57) could not be a Father unless a Woman of like glory, perfection, and holiness was associated with him as a Mother"


The rest of what you posted, I have never heard before.

KVJ


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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43246 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 6:04 PM
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KM,
Wait, if somebody dies, they've experienced physical death whether or not they are ressurected later. Oh, I see - you believe that salvation is deliverence from staying dead, right?

Correct, now tell me how you make the fonts bold?

IMO, he died and will be judged and condemned before the Great White Throne Judgement. I hope I'm wrong.

Hmmm, I believe he is a son of perdition and will be cast into outer darkness, along with Satan and his legions.

If they have lived since Christ died, unfortunately, they will be condemned at the Great White Throne.
If they lived and died before Christ they were under a different convenant that I can't describe fully.


I cannot believe this. A loving God would never create children who had no chance but to be condemned. My sense of justice says that Mormon Doctrine is correct in that all will have the chance to accept Christ and his gospel. Buy the way, this is the main purpose Mormons have Temples. We do Baptisms for the dead and other necessary ordinaces so that everyone will have the opportunity to accept the gospel. We also believe that Spirit Prison is where these souls are right now and that they are being taught the gospel. If they accept it, their "work" will be done in the Temple for them. There by fulfulling the requirements Jesus taught thay we must do.

The thief died before Christ. He was immediately transported (soul and spirit) to paradise (Abraham's boosom). I don't know it's location, but when Christ died, His spirit and soul went to sheol and His soul was tormented for three days while His spirit went and preached Himself to those in captivity in Abraham's boosom.
Paradise is no more because the old covenant is no more. Now, when believers die we go to heaven immediately.


Then what purpose is the resurrection and when will believers be judged?


KVJ

PS, let me say that this has been a very enjoyable discussion with you KM. Thanks :-)






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Author: glampig Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43259 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 7:07 PM
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Sneakpuff, OK, You've heard of 6 out of 10 of the citations. Do you agree with the information in those 6? Do most mormons agree with them? Are those points of doctrine required of mormons? Do you think that any of the early Church Fathers believed these things or did they contend against them?

How is the challenge going? Have you yet to find ANY of the early Church Fathers who did NOT accept the doctrine of the Trinity? Once again, here are the references. Be sure to scroll down to the Didache and read Chapter 7. This first century document clearly shows that the baptismal rite formula was performed in the "name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". I'll make it easy for you. Here is the attachment.
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/St.Pachomius/Liturgical/didache.html

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/St.Pachomius/globalindex.html

http://www.ccel.org/php/wwec.php

Keep in mind that this document was in circulation while many who had witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD were still alive. There was no cry against the authority of the Trinity within the Christian community. They believed it then, we should believe it today. The Trinity is Truth that has never gone away regardless of any of the new revelations of false prophets.

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43263 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 8:09 PM
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Rick,

Do you agree with the information in those 6? Do most mormons agree with them? Are those points of doctrine required of mormons? Do you think that any of the early Church Fathers believed these things or did they contend against them?

Yes, Yes and Yes.

How is the challenge going? Have you yet to find ANY of the early Church Fathers who did NOT accept the doctrine of the Trinity? Once again, here are the references. Be sure to scroll down to the Didache and read Chapter 7. This first century document clearly shows that the baptismal rite formula was performed in the "name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

I have not found any who do not agree there is a Trinity, I also believe in the Trinity. In fact when we baptise, we do it in the name of The Father and The Son and The Holy Ghost. Here is a D&C refrence as to how baptism must be done: http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/20/73#73

The problem is in how you define the relationship of The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. I have seen no proof that the Niceean Creed is anything but a compromise between a group of men who cound nor agree.

The very though that our Father in Heaven or that Christ would give us such confusion and nonsense for doctrine is ridiculous to me. I'm reminded of:
2 Tim 4:
1 I CHARGE thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables

KVJ


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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43268 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 9:17 PM
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<<So, there's only been two people saved? (Enoch, Elijah)>>

They have not died ... yet!


Revelations 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.
6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.
10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on


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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43271 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 10:13 PM
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I don't know it's location, but when Christ died, His spirit and soul went to sheol and His soul was tormented for three days while His spirit went and preached Himself to those in captivity in Abraham's boosom.

There is no verse that says anything about Jesus being tormented in hell for three days.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43278 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/8/2001 11:42 PM
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<<There is no verse that says anything about Jesus being tormented in hell for three days.>>

There are some verses in some of the writings that were not included in the Bible. I can not remember which one.

I have always thought that when He told the thief on the cross that "this day you will be with me in paradise" that he meant Abraham's side where ever that is. The begger died and went there when the rich man went to torment. ( Luke 16:19 - 30 ) One thing is certain Jesus did not ascend directly to heaven. John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father

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Author: fivesolas Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43279 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/9/2001 1:10 AM
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<My sense of justice says that Mormon Doctrine is correct in that all will have the chance to accept Christ and his gospel.>

KVJ

Here is a big difference. In Mormonism, man controls salvation. But in Biblical Christianity, God controls salvation. All men do have the chance for salvation based on the knowledge they have, they just won't. So in Christianity salvation has to be accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

God bless,

John


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Author: mightywind One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43282 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/9/2001 6:36 AM
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Hi lhaselden,

I have always thought that when He told the thief on the cross that "this day you will be with me in paradise" that he meant Abraham's side where ever that is. The begger died and went there when the rich man went to torment. ( Luke 16:19 - 30 )


You're right in saying that Jesus went down to paradise, as he stated to the thief on the cross. Many things happened between His death and His resurrection, although I personally don't believe He was tormented. What I do believe includes the following:

(1 Pet 3:19) "through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison"

The word "preach" here means to herald (as a public crier) and to proclaim the gospel. Basically, Jesus was declaring and proclaiming His absolute victory (saying "I told you so", if you like!) in complete fulfillment of the scriptures. He wasn't inviting them to repent and be saved, as some believe.

(Eph 4:8-9) "Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." {9} (Now this, "He ascended"; what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?"

When on a campaign of war, the Romans would proclaim and show-off their total victory over the enemy, by bringing home to Rome prisoners captured from the defeated enemy. They would then parade them through the city, showing off the spoils of the victory before the home population. This was called "leading captivity captive". After proclaiming His total victory to the spirits in prison, Jesus then emptied paradise/Abraham's bosom (not to be confused with heaven - I'll explain further if asked) and led all the believers up to heaven where as His spoils they were parading before the home population (God the Father, the angels, etc.) - He led captivity captive, a wonderful sight I bet!


One thing is certain Jesus did not ascend directly to heaven. John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father

Have to disagree on this point.

If we bear in mind that at this time Jesus is fulfilling the requirements of the Levitical Feasts. Jesus was the antitype Passover lamb. Following the Feasts of Passover/Unleavened Bread, we then begin the Feast of Weeks - the harvest. At the very beginning of the Feast of Weeks a sheaf of the firstfruits was waved before the Lord.

(Lev 23:10-11) ""Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. {11} 'He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it."

Jesus is the firstfruits of the harvest (Feast of Weeks).

(1 Cor 15:20-23) "But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. {21} For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. {22} For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. {23} But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

In John 20:17 the words "I am returning" is in the present tense. Mary Magdalene was forbidden from touching Jesus because He had not yet been waved as the firstfruit offering before the Lord (in heaven). "I am returning" confirms that He perfectly fulfilled this requirement of the Law that very day, as the antitype firstfruit wave offering, just as He should.

(John 20:17) "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'""

So Jesus actually returned to His Father in heaven that very day (40 days before the Ascension), as the fulfillment of the firstfruit wave offering, and then returned sometime before the evening.

If we read on in John 20, Jesus appears to the disciples who were hiding for fear of the Jews. It's only a matter of a few hours since He prohibited Mary from trying to hold Him (because He was returning to His Father), yet now He issues no such command.

A few verses later (v. 26-27) Jesus appears to Thomas and invites him to actually touch Him. This is the exact opposite of His instructions to Mary. Why? Because He has returned to His Father in heaven (ascended), and immediately returned in fulfillment of the firstfruits wave offering.

God bless,

mightywind

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43283 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/9/2001 8:00 AM
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Frecs,

Psalm 88 - prophetic of Christ's sufferings.

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Frecs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43284 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/9/2001 8:13 AM
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There are some verses in some of the writings that were not included in the Bible.

That should tell you something. :-)

I have always thought that when He told the thief on the cross that "this day you will be with me in paradise" that he meant Abraham's side where ever that is.

He did.

One thing is certain Jesus did not ascend directly to heaven.

You are correct.


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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 43285 of 195917
Subject: Re: John 10: 33 & 34 Date: 2/9/2001 8:40 AM
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KVJ,

now tell me how you make the fonts bold?

Same way as italics but with a "B" instead of an "I".
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IMO, he died and will be judged and condemned before the Great White Throne Judgement. I hope I'm wrong.

Hmmm, I believe he is a son of perdition and will be cast into outer darkness, along with Satan and his legions.


We are using the same words but speaking different languages. The Great White Throne is the judgement before which all unbelievers will stand and be condemned - including Judas the son of perdition, Satan and his legions. We believe the same here with the exception of the place/time of the judgement. It will get clearer with the next answer.
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Then what purpose is the resurrection and when will believers be judged?

As to the first half, I need some clarification. Are you refering to Christ's resurrection or our's? I'd rather not answer to both as that would be incredibly lengthy.

As to the second part of believers being judged, there is a judgement that comes before the Great White Throne. It is called the Judgement Seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10) This judgement is to determine the eternal rewards for relationship and service on the earth. To be honest, I'm not clear (because the scripture's not clear) as to specifically when this judgement takes place. It could be all at once or it could happen individually as each person dies. On that, I don't know - I've never died and gone to heaven before :-)
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We do Baptisms for the dead and other