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Author: drebbin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 134930  
Subject: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 12:00 AM
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Juan appears to believe that 0bama won it tonight. He picked up and carried 0bama's water on the "no specifics" line. This is an extraordinarily weak line. We had to wait until we passed 0bamacare to find out what was in it, and that was years into 0bama's term, much less on the campaign trail. So maybe this is something that the media can carry forward. But knowing Romney, he will be able to talk plenty specific about his plans, and will turn it back on 0bama to name his own specifics, which he won't be able to do.
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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 106717 of 134930
Subject: Re: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 12:18 AM
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Juan appears to believe that 0bama won it tonight. He picked up and carried 0bama's water on the "no specifics" line. This is an extraordinarily weak line. We had to wait until we passed 0bamacare to find out what was in it, and that was years into 0bama's term, much less on the campaign trail. So maybe this is something that the media can carry forward. But knowing Romney, he will be able to talk plenty specific about his plans, and will turn it back on 0bama to name his own specifics, which he won't be able to do.

The "no specifics" line is a load. Mitt cited data, he cited plans, he cited numbers. Obama was the one waving his hands all around.

But good luck to them with that theme. My favorite was still Maddow whining about why the debate didn't focus on the 47%, unions and Mitt's record. Good luck with that, too.

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Author: CVSUSN Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 106720 of 134930
Subject: Re: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 12:27 AM
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Didn't see Maddow, but saw Matthews. The man came unglued. What a hoot!

It was not so much Romney's performance as it was Obama's negative performance in words and demeanor. Just stunning. Like his heart wasn't in it. It's as though there was no preparation which then begs the question what was the Obama strategy going into this evening? What is the strategy now going forward? The emperor has no clothes.

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Author: drebbin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 106721 of 134930
Subject: Re: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 12:31 AM
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TheDope1: The "no specifics" line is a load. Mitt cited data, he cited plans, he cited numbers. Obama was the one waving his hands all around.

It's a losing line. We know it because we've been there. It was a line frequently used against 0bama. And it was even more true then (as we all found out with the 0bamacare debacle), but it was still a losing line. It will be even more of a losing line this time around against Romney. Does anyone really think Romney isn't going to be able to talk about plan specifics? He's cut from Bill Clinton's cloth in that regard. He loves getting into the policy weeds. Trust me, this isn't where the 0bama campaign wants to go. It might be all they have, and maybe it will help rally the troops until the Biden debate (sorry, just spit my coffee out on my screen as I typed that), but it isn't something they can take forward. I'm still guessing that they will turn to the "fact-checkers" early and often to try to bail them out.

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Author: drebbin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 106723 of 134930
Subject: Re: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 12:37 AM
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CVSUSN: It was not so much Romney's performance as it was Obama's negative performance in words and demeanor. Just stunning. Like his heart wasn't in it. It's as though there was no preparation which then begs the question what was the Obama strategy going into this evening? What is the strategy now going forward? The emperor has no clothes.

A little bit. I thought 0bama did fairly well by typical standards, he was just up against someone who knocked it out of the park tonight. 0bama could have turned this performance in against McCain and cleaned his clock. In fact, I think he did three times last campaign.

As far as the 0bama strategy tonight and going forward. I think he was planning to play defense tonight and hope that was enough. It wasn't. I also think they completely misjudged Romney, and that was in evidence by choosing John Kerry (who served in Vietnam) to be his stand-in. We talked about it at the time, that was not a good move, and I think it hurt him tonight. Romney far exceeded my expectations, but even if he met my expectations, that was beyond what John Kerry (who served in Vietnam) would have prepared him for.

Going forward, we'll see. As I've been saying, I expect them to complain about a lack of specifics (which will go nowhere) and then accuse Romney of lying and use "fact-checkers" to support them (which may work to some extent). In the next debate, whatever it is about, there will be no surprises. 0bama will come out hot and won't hold back. But don't expect Romney to be unprepared for that either.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 106734 of 134930
Subject: Re: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 7:38 AM
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A little bit. I thought 0bama did fairly well by typical standards, he was just up against someone who knocked it out of the park tonight. 0bama could have turned this performance in against McCain and cleaned his clock. In fact, I think he did three times last campaign.
_____________________________

Firstly, you were right about what Romney had to deliver.

The last thing I expected was for Romney to take charge of the format itself and demand a debate. Further that Lehrer only tried blatantly once to bail out Obama was a bonus.

What Obama looked like was that he was lazy in his preparation. To folks with doubts about Obama that may be more damning than anything that actually happened.

What many lost sight of was Romney was a salesman, that is largely what CEOs do along with their other duties. He was a salesman successful on a titanic scale at selling solutions to companies in trouble.

Obama was Obama, this is Obama without the spin. He is a decent pol, he never was really more than that. He threw out his spin and did what he really always does. Obama was prepared, he ignored questions and plowed into talking points. Things fell apart when Lehrer did not stop Romney from actually shredding the strawmen.

Romney energized the base. Is there a conservative left who now can not bring themselves to vote for Romney? He articulated principles not merely policy, and Obama can not battle that, as conservatives have claimed for decades.

Yes, I expect a better Obama next time out. However, I am not sure we will get one. I happen to agree with the 'emperor is not wearing any clothes' stated by Carl. As far as a call for Romney not providing details? To that I refer to a different story. Oh please, don't throw me in the briar patch.

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Author: drebbin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 106735 of 134930
Subject: Re: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 8:32 AM
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lowstudent: Yes, I expect a better Obama next time out. However, I am not sure we will get one. I happen to agree with the 'emperor is not wearing any clothes' stated by Carl. As far as a call for Romney not providing details? To that I refer to a different story. Oh please, don't throw me in the briar patch.

I expect, perhaps, a different 0bama. Not sure about a better one. He wasn't really bad this time (e.g., no huge mistakes), just somewhat weak in spots.

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Author: drebbin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 106737 of 134930
Subject: Re: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 8:55 AM
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lowstudent: Obama was Obama, this is Obama without the spin. He is a decent pol, he never was really more than that. He threw out his spin and did what he really always does. Obama was prepared, he ignored questions and plowed into talking points. Things fell apart when Lehrer did not stop Romney from actually shredding the strawmen.

I also think this is just a natural problem for Democrats because they are so used to being coddled. The media rarely pushes them on anything, and usually covers for them without even requiring the candidate to do anything. Last night, at least once and maybe more, Lehrer tried to help 0bama along by leading him in the right direction with a comment. But that was about it. Other than that, Lehrer let both candidates talk on and on. I didn't like this early, because I thought both candidates tended to run into their campaign talking points. But I thought it turned out to lead to a much more substantive discussion than what you normally have when there are these arbitrary time limits. That 0bama actually had 3 minutes more speaking time pretty much sucks the air out of the Democrat whine that Lehrer let Romney run wild.

But what liberals are used to in this debate is the moderator actively helping them. And except for one minor instance that I can recall, that didn't happen here. I think it puts Democrats at a disadvantage that they don't have to develop good thoughts or arguments. In fact, that may be the primary reason why many thought 0bama appeared unprepared. He was prepared for a debate led by Tom Brokaw, who would spend as much time talking as the candidates, and jump in to help the Democrat candidate out whenever possible. No doubt liberals are hoping that the next several Democrats who moderate these debates will know their place, and get in there and help the team.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 106739 of 134930
Subject: Re: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 8:59 AM
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I expect, perhaps, a different 0bama. Not sure about a better one. He wasn't really bad this time (e.g., no huge mistakes), just somewhat weak in spots.
_____________________________

Obama was what Romney needed him to be, Obama.

He was not bad, he was a self absorbed technocrat.

I do think he will be better--of as you intone, far more engaged Obama. He got a very rude SO WHAT regarding him being the President. He did not seem prepared for that.

People want to forget, Obama has been a rhetorical disaster for a good long time. Never terrible, just never any good. He has not given a non-disappointing speech in a very long time.

This debate could only have been better for Romney had Obama said I am dropping from the race. Obama reinforced what folks have been driving as his negatives, unprepared /distracted, he made folks question his strengths --where was that famous intellect and rhetorical skill?

For Romney? Where again was that uncaring gaff machine that cared about nothing but the rich?

This all operated at the core of what was Obama's campaign to date. It likely largely undermined months of negative advertising in one night.

As a bonus, Romney threw not red-meat, but a well seasoned medium-rare filet to conservatives. He hit all the concepts that they would want. Not that every policy is perfect but his core philosophy as espoused? Perfect to fire up his base.

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 106741 of 134930
Subject: Re: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 9:27 AM
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Juan is quoted on HotAir as repeating "Massacre, massacre" off camera. I don't think he was referring to an Obama victory.

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Author: TMBFAverageJoe Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 106754 of 134930
Subject: Re: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 11:22 AM
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"I happen to agree with the 'emperor is not wearing any clothes' stated by Carl."

That's putting it mildly. 'Buck naked' would be far more accurate.

~aj

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Author: Jim2B Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 106771 of 134930
Subject: Re: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 12:40 PM
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Juan appears to believe that 0bama won it tonight. He picked up and carried 0bama's water on the "no specifics" line.

If I were Romney/Ryan:

We can see that this is likely to be used by Obama as a silver bullet repeatedly in future debates.

Diligently work out specific plans between now and the next debate but don't allow that information to get out.

When Obama fires the bullet, hold up your detailed plan and say, "I'm so glad that you brought this up! We just developed this plan that we'd like to share but it's far too specific to cover in debate format.

Now, where is yours?"

Jim

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Author: mas113m Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 106775 of 134930
Subject: Re: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 1:20 PM
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Juan is quoted on HotAir as repeating "Massacre, massacre" off camera.


The Massacre on the Mountain.

I like it.


Mason

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Author: iamski Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 106790 of 134930
Subject: Re: Juan Williams Date: 10/4/2012 3:05 PM
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He picked up and carried 0bama's water on the "no specifics" line.

How long have the specifics been out there?


http://roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/

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