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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 129261  
Subject: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven? Date: 10/3/2012 8:33 AM
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The bottom line is, conventional sells, so we will eventually repair/replace our oven/stove top. But just how necessary is it?

Even for baking there are excellent counter top convection ovens, some even that double as microwave ovens. Want to roast a turkey? There are counter top roasters for that as well. Of course there are counter top electric burners and griddles, crock pot slow cookers for your stove top needs. Even with a stove I tend to gravitate towards these individual appliances, and I use my toaster oven much more than the larger 30" oven.

At the cabin we have retained the small 20" oven/4 burner that came with the place. I had once thought that when it died I would replace it with a larger 30", but now I suspect I might replace it with a 30" cabinet to store my individual cooking options. Putting a cabinet there will actually free up the corner for cabinet storage as well, access to which is now blocked by the oven.

Perhaps it's a bit backwards, considering I added a dishwasher to the appliances in the kitchen and took away coveted storage space in doing so, but trust me, I USE the dishwasher. Ditto the fridge which saw us move the 10CuFt fridge to the garage and bring in an 18CuFt. But the oven? I suspect I can work around that one.

IP,
not looking to spend more time cooking in retirement
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Author: jeffbrig Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122355 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 10:01 AM
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Necessary in my book. I have a countertop toaster oven that I use occasionally for reheating, but it's incredibly uneven due to proximity to the heating elements. Plus, there are things I do in the real oven that I wouldn't consider in a countertop. For example, homemade pizza at 550 in convection mode, I'm not doing that in a countertop unit.

Another key feature of our 'traditional' oven is that it has a warming drawer below the oven. I can't believe how useful that has been while preparing meals. Different dishes aren't ready at the same time? Drop it in the warming drawer and it stays hot. Want to serve food on a warm plate? Drop a stack in the warming drawer while you cook. It's the simplest thing, but it's really convenient.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122357 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 10:32 AM
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I use my oven a lot, and don't own a microwave, so for me it's essential. I still do way more stovetop than oven cooking, but I would never get rid of my oven.

That said, it is YOUR house - if you don't use it, ditch it!

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122358 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 10:44 AM
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Are you ever going to rent your cabin? I think the lack of an oven could affect rentals.

PSU

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Author: Trini209 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122359 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 10:54 AM
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Even for baking there are excellent counter top convection ovens, some even that double as microwave ovens. Want to roast a turkey? There are counter top roasters for that as well. Of course there are counter top electric burners and griddles, crock pot slow cookers for your stove top needs. Even with a stove I tend to gravitate towards these individual appliances, and I use my toaster oven much more than the larger 30" oven.

Do you have enough counter space for a counter top convection oven, a counter top turkey roaster, counter top electric burners/griddles, a crock pot, and a toaster oven? Counter/work space may be worth more than lost cabinet space.

Trini


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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122360 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 11:07 AM
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I agree that the oven in a typical 30" range is grossly oversized for most purposes.

But it's like buying an SUV. If you have it, you can haul the occasional large load of passengers or freight.

Before WWII, ovens were typically a lot smaller, even though families were often larger. Multiple ovens that were large and small were a lot more common as well, so you could choose an appropriately sized oven.

After WWII one big oven became the norm.

I found a lot of uses for a toaster oven when I had one, but I decided I didn't want to devote the counterspace to it.

My favorite post WWII gas range had a typical large oven on the bottom and a small gas oven above the range burners and included a range hood as part of that arrangement. The small gas oven was later replaced with a microwave.


Seattle Pioneer

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Author: medgoddess Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122361 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 11:18 AM
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Another key feature of our 'traditional' oven is that it has a warming drawer below the oven.

*****************************************
AKA the drawer that holds my cookie sheets, pizza pans, and wire racks for storage.

I have never used it for warming.
Kristi

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Author: Jeanwa Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122362 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 11:44 AM
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Another key feature of our 'traditional' oven is that it has a warming drawer below the oven.

*****************************************
AKA the drawer that holds my cookie sheets, pizza pans, and wire racks for storage.

I have never used it for warming.
Kristi
==========================================

I thought the warming drawer was different than the storage drawer.

Under oven features you can sort by the type of drawer.

http://www.ajmadison.com/b.php/Slide-In%3BElectric%3BRanges/...

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122363 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 11:51 AM
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I thought about buying a toaster oven for smaller uses, especially during summer. But I'd read because they're far less insulated than a traditional over, they actually give off a lot of heat, so you don't really save on not trying to heat up your kitchen by going with a toaster versus traditional oven.

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Author: jeffbrig Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122364 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 11:56 AM
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AKA the drawer that holds my cookie sheets, pizza pans, and wire racks for storage.

I have never used it for warming.


On most ovens, it's just a storage drawer. The warming drawer is an upgrade feature on certain models, and actually has its own heating element separate from the main oven.

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122365 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 12:46 PM
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On most ovens, it's just a storage drawer. The warming drawer is an upgrade feature on certain models, and actually has its own heating element separate from the main oven.

Friends just put in a new kitchen, and one of the things is a warming drawer above the oven. (Microwave above that.) So when you're using the over, it warms automatically. If you're not using the oven, well, I don't know, I didn't think to ask.

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122366 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 1:32 PM
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On most ovens, it's just a storage drawer. The warming drawer is an upgrade feature on certain models, and actually has its own heating element separate from the main oven.

Yup, our oven has one...and I too use it to store pots and pans.

Just seems we've gotten way more fancy than necessary.

IP

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122367 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 1:42 PM
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Are you ever going to rent your cabin? I think the lack of an oven could affect rentals.

PSU


Should be ready for the spring season. The place needed a serious amount of work, which is easier said than done given the distance.

I'm really not so sure that the lack of a conventional oven would be that big a deal. Most people use the grill, or even cook in a dutch oven on the camp fire. You go to the cabin to hike, kayak, swim and fish, not to cook gourmet meals. When I rent a vacation place at most the oven might get used to reheat pizza...though mostly we eat that cold. I've rented dozens of places by now, and can only remember using the oven a couple of times. I do remember using the dutch oven, however. Cook gets to go on vacation too.

For now we have the 20" oven/stove. By the time that dies we should have some feedback, or be living there full time. While we hope to expand the place with time, right now the size limits the number of people who can stay, so not being able to cook for large numbers is not such a bad thing.

IP

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122368 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 2:09 PM
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I've rented dozens of places by now, and can only remember using the oven a couple of times.

Since your thread here is about you not using your oven often, one would conclude as you did that you don't use rental ovens very often. Do you represent the general population? If part of the sales pitch for your cabin may be fully furnished kitchen, would renters be disappointed when they find out there isn't an oven. Would you make it clear in the rental info that there is not an oven. Do you think others may think differently than you? Maybe you should consult with rental agents on the desirability of ovens instead of relying on your personal preferences.

PSU

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122371 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 2:38 PM
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Would you make it clear in the rental info that there is not an oven. Do you think others may think differently than you?

No, I would purposely conceal the lack of an oven so that I could then deal with angry customers, who would then leave angry reviews on my rental site! Sure they may think differently, and that is the lovely thing about choice....though there are not many options for rentals out there. I suspect the game room will be a much bigger attraction than the lack of an oven, if it ever disappears, would be. Again, remember we currently have an oven there that we are not looking to get rid of unless it dies. As I develop my Facebook site for the cabin, I would think this would be a good discussion point to have with people who have stayed there or look to stay there. I may even survey people after they rent the place to see just how important the oven is.

The point of this thread was basically to muse over the the knee jerk acceptance of the Kitchen Appliance Packages that are marketed to us at great cost to our budgets.

IP
looking to score a good deal on a full sized air hockey table tonight at auction

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122373 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 2:42 PM
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Probably the number one reason to have an oven/stove in your kitchen is the difficulty of getting a sales mortgage on it when you go to sell your home. Perhaps Dave or CCoy could chime in, but I was told more than once that it would be difficult to get a mortgage on a house we were looking to buy if there were not an oven/stove in the kitchen. No fridge, no problem, but at least two lenders told me no stove was big problem. I found that very weird.

IP

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122375 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 3:09 PM
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<< Probably the number one reason to have an oven/stove in your kitchen is the difficulty of getting a sales mortgage on it when you go to sell your home. Perhaps Dave or CCoy could chime in, but I was told more than once that it would be difficult to get a mortgage on a house we were looking to buy if there were not an oven/stove in the kitchen. No fridge, no problem, but at least two lenders told me no stove was big problem. I found that very weird.>>


Yep. You must have a functioning range in order for a buyer to qualify for the typical mortgage is my experience.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122376 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 4:07 PM
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Sounds like for your cooking style, not very necessary. I use mine all the time.

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Author: foo1bar Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122378 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 4:19 PM
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Sounds like for your cooking style, not very necessary. I use mine all the time.

I use my oven at home fairly often.
But I don't think I would use it much while on vacation somewhere.
Frozen pizza being the one thing I can think of where I'd use it (easy to make dinner after being out all day hiking/skiing/canoeing/whatever)

OTOH, I'd probably expect a place without a stove to be advertised as having a "kitchenette". (I think a cabin I stayed in was advertised as having a kitchenette, and it had only fridge, microwave, and hot-water-kettle. But those were all I needed/wanted)

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122379 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 4:48 PM
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Sounds like for your cooking style, not very necessary. I use mine all the time.

We use ours about four days a week. On vacation less, and mostly for reheating certain restaurant leftovers. Sometimes we use the microwave, but many dishes don't work that well, and an oven-reheat is much better. A good quality toaster oven would usually be acceptable, but not always.

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122381 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 4:50 PM
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No, I would purposely conceal the lack of an oven so that I could then deal with angry customers, who would then leave angry reviews on my rental site!

Did I say you would purposely conceal the fact? No. That's your attitude showing through in your response. You just may not mention it since you think it is an unimportant thing to list versus the deck, river view, etc. What is unimportant to you may be important to others.

PSU

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122382 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 5:35 PM
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Did I say you would purposely conceal the fact? No. That's your attitude showing through in your response.

Or my personality anyway. I do tend towards sarcasm.

Check out VRBO or Homeaway.com, and you will quickly see that just about everything in the rental tends to be listed, since it is not a given. Not everyplace even provides bedding or towels.

Anyway, this thread has served it's purpose in making me remember the problem of getting a mortgage without a working range. Half the time posting on the board helps me work through things to answer my own question.

IP

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Author: Radish Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122383 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 5:45 PM
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I have a countertop toaster oven that I use occasionally for reheating, but it's incredibly uneven due to proximity to the heating elements. — jeffbrig

But I'd read because they're far less insulated than a traditional over, they actually give off a lot of heat, so you don't really save on not trying to heat up your kitchen by going with a toaster versus traditional oven. — MetroChick


I've thought a few times about getting a small countertop oven (aka toaster oven) because my regular oven takes forever to heat up and I suspect is very expensive to operate. But at quick glance, the toaster ovens I've seen seem to be vastly inferior to regular ovens. As posted, the heating elements are poorly placed and none seem to have any significant insulation. Plus the controls are usually very poor.

But perhaps I've just looked at the wrong ovens, or haven't looked hard enough (admittedly, I haven't looked very hard at all). Anyone know of any countertop ovens that have stable, evenly-distributed, accurately-selectable temperature, effective insulation, efficient operation, and quality build? Probably there's something in the commercial kitchen world... or maybe not, since they don't seem to be overly concerned with insulation usually.

Phil

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122384 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 6:01 PM
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Phil,

There is a serious amount of info at the following link:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/586965
Lots of links if you google "high quality countertop ovens"

IP

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Author: Radish Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122386 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 8:44 PM
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inparadise,

Good read, thanks.

Phil

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Author: medgoddess Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122387 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 9:27 PM
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We didn't. Sellers took all appliances. I bought from Sears Scratch and Dent the week we took possession. (and don't get me started on how AWFUL they were...)

Kristi

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Author: NoIDAtAll Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122388 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 10:34 PM
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Personally, I would like to try a couple of portable ovens. These are a couple that interest me. Both have pretty decent customer reviews:

This one is pretty cheap, actually, yet has a lot of interesting features and options:
http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Professional-Jumbo-Toaster-Broil...

This one is a portable convection oven with 687 5-star reviews and 110 4-star reviews - Interesting. I would really like to see a real life demonstration before I might lay out a few hundred for it, or one comparable, or perhaps better, but I think it might certainly be worth seeing a live demonstration - I have absolutely zero experience with a convection oven:
http://www.amazon.com/Breville-BOV800XL-1800-Watt-Convection...

Bob

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Author: stannius Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122389 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/3/2012 11:02 PM
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OTOH, I'd probably expect a place without a stove to be advertised as having a "kitchenette". (I think a cabin I stayed in was advertised as having a kitchenette, and it had only fridge, microwave, and hot-water-kettle. But those were all I needed/wanted)

I am like others... At home I use my oven frequently. I would expect that as a feature of any home I would buy, to live in.

On vacation I rarely use an oven. Occasionally I stay someplace with one, and use it, but I wouldn't not stay in a rental because it was missing an oven. I do agree I would expect the cooking room of such a rental to be labeled a "kitchenette". Even if it had the best toaster oven on the planet on the counter.

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Author: NoIDAtAll Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122390 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/4/2012 8:44 AM
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I am like others... At home I use my oven frequently. I would expect that as a feature of any home I would buy, to live in.

On vacation I rarely use an oven. Occasionally I stay someplace with one, and use it, but I wouldn't not stay in a rental because it was missing an oven. I do agree I would expect the cooking room of such a rental to be labeled a "kitchenette". Even if it had the best toaster oven on the planet on the counter.


I would tend to agree, at least to the extent that presently available portable ovens leave some things to be desired. On a day-to-day basis, I find a conventional oven a nice convenience. I certainly could get by w/o one, and do a very respectable job, but really don't care to.

WRT "How Necessary is That Conventional Oven", I submit that it is certainly very possible and plausible to prepare very excellent baked meals w/o one.

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122391 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/4/2012 8:57 AM
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WRT "How Necessary is That Conventional Oven", I submit that it is certainly very possible and plausible to prepare very excellent baked meals w/o one.

Indeed, MIL has been making do without one for years. SIL made the downstairs into an inlaw apt., but could not get a permit to put in a second kitchen. As long as they left the range out, it was OK, so they used a counter top convection oven instead.

We may wind up doing the same thing at the cabin in the long run. The lower level is much bigger than upstairs, and we could have a 1br apartment up with a two bedroom down. I have not yet checked into legality to do this, since that could change by the time we decide it's a go, but we have a three bedroom septic and a bath up and down, so it wouldn't be too hard to do.

In the meantime, we are going to make downstairs into a game room, with full bath, bar/kitchenette and sleeping area. Picked up a 7' long well built air hockey table last night at auction for $65! It was too big for most people to find a little nook in their house to put it, so we got quite the bargain. Gotta love auctions!

IP,
continuing to look for a good ping pong table and Foosball, but probably going to skip the billiards

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Author: NoIDAtAll Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122392 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/4/2012 8:45 PM
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Indeed, MIL has been making do without one for years. SIL made the downstairs into an inlaw apt., but could not get a permit to put in a second kitchen. As long as they left the range out, it was OK, so they used a counter top convection oven instead.

That sounds like a pretty ridiculous code, to me, actually. My parents had 2 stoves in the house in which I grew up - 1 in the kitchen and 1 in the basement. There were no code issues, at least that I knew of. Of course it wasn't beyond D.O.D. to not bother getting a building permit to just hookup a stove. It's an appliance for goodness sake. It's not part of the building. Insurers consider range/ovens personal property, the same as refrigerators, washers and dryers. On holidays Mom would bake a turkey in the oven in the basement and cakes and/or pies in the kitchen oven, or she just baked everything in the basement oven to keep the main floor cooler, depending on how much she was baking. I don't get that code.

Bob

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Author: foo1bar Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122393 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/4/2012 8:57 PM
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"could not get a permit to put in a second kitchen. As long as they left the range out, it was OK, "...

I don't get that code.


I'm guessing it's goal is to prevent a house from becoming a duplex/triplex, ( and part of it being rented out. )

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Author: NoIDAtAll Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122395 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/5/2012 1:41 AM
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I'm guessing it's goal is to prevent a house from becoming a duplex/triplex, ( and part of it being rented out. )

It's already a duplex, of sorts, though family - MIL is living in a private, sectioned off part of the house, with a full kitchen, except for a stove/oven... I would have been tempted to leave a 30 1/4" gap in the counter/cabinets, place a planter in that space until it passed inspection, and then install a stove if I wished to for my family member. If I wanted to rent the lower level out later, that would be a different matter.

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Author: inparadise Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 122399 of 129261
Subject: Re: Just How Necessary is That Conventional Oven Date: 10/5/2012 6:14 AM
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That sounds like a pretty ridiculous code, to me, actually. My parents had 2 stoves in the house in which I grew up - 1 in the kitchen and 1 in the basement.

Two kitchens are pretty common around here too, particularly in Italian families, but they no longer allow new ones to be put in. It's to avoid illegal duplexes.

Of course, one could assume that if someone were willing to do an illegal duplex, they would also have no qualms about putting in a line for the electric stove without permits and inspections.

IP

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