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Monday's episodes of Katie is about near death experiences. Mary Neal, a doctor talks about her NDE, along with a young female artist who paints pictures of what she saw, and Colton Burpo, the boy who had an NDE when he was 4 years old. It airs here tomorrow at 3:00 pm Central Time on NBC.


Katie Episode: "Katie"
Season 1, Episode 21
Episode Synopsis: The existence of heaven is discussed with guests who have had near-death experiences. Included: remarks by author Mary Neal ("To Heaven and Back: The True Story of a Doctor's Extraordinary Walk With God") and art prodigy Akiane Kramarik. Original Air Date: Oct 8, 2012

http://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/katie-2012/episode-21-season-...

Art
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To The Resurrection
Send my credentials
To the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
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Art, since you were curious about my church going habits, I'm curious about something as well.

What do you hope to accomplish with your frequent reference to NDE, holographic universe, etc.?

For someone who speaks about this one specific topic every day--many times several times per day--there must be a reason why.
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I think it's his rebuttal to the political talk. Politics/current events interests us, and NDEs interests Art.
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"Art, since you were curious about my church going habits, I'm curious about something as well. What do you hope to accomplish with your frequent reference to NDE, holographic universe, etc.? For someone who speaks about this one specific topic every day--many times several times per day--there must be a reason why." - catherine
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LOL! I'm going to tell you a great secret! On this board are many lurkers. I get private emails thanking me for spiritual oriented posts. They tell me my posts are interesting and please keep posting.

I'm going to tell you another secret, there are some regular posters on this board that don't want ya'll to know they are interested in spiritual New Age type stuff. One of them is a nurse and has experienced first hand death bed visions in a hospice type situation.

They are afraid to open about it because they are afraid of ridicule plus they aren't interested in arguing about it.

All is not as it seems.

Artie
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Oh, OK...lurkers find NDE stories "interesting." There's really no benefit to anyone--eternal or otherwise--from others' NDE experiences.

Fair 'nuff, but, personally, I'd like my time on this earth to count for something, and I think placing my faith in Jesus Christ will pay off big time when I leave.

In the meantime, yeah, NDE stories are downright fascinating.
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True story:

When I was stationed at Camp LeJeune, a friend and I lived off base. We rented a small trailer in a trailer park. Unfortunately, we had the unit next to the owners/managers.

One night we were drunk/stoned and carrying on. My roommate suddenly felt sleepy and laid on the couch. Before he went out, he said, "And then she said, 'they seemed like such nice fellows too," then he went to sleep.

I was wondering what was going on when the owners drove up to their own trailer. Their parking spot was right in front of their trailer. The trailers were only separated by about 15-20 feet. You could hear conversations from the outside.

I looked out the windows because we were expecting visitors. As they were walking up to their trailer I heard her voice. She said while looking at our trailer, "And they seemed like such nice fellows too."

I did a "Wow!!!" and my friend woke up. I related to him what I just witnessed. He was out for less than a minute. I asked him if he remembered anything and he said "no."

Nobody died, but I haven't experienced anything similar to this in my life since.

BTW, we got our eviction notice about a week later.
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"There's really no benefit to anyone--eternal or otherwise--from others' NDE experiences." - catherine


I went from no hope to having a high degree of confidence that life is meaningful and that we are here for a reason and that one day I will be reunited with my loved ones that have gone on before me. I believe that counts for something. Makes life a little more bearable.

"Fair 'nuff, but, personally, I'd like my time on this earth to count for something, and I think placing my faith in Jesus Christ will pay off big time when I leave." - catherine

You believe a guy died on a cross and came back to life? And that he taught a whole bunch of stories about what heaven is like? I see very little difference between that and what I believe.

I believe basically that Christianity is a highly embellished and out of sequence near death experience story and that the New Testament is basically another book about a near death experience.

Art
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Between Art's liberalism and the holographic universe, I have learned that we are separate but equal individuals.
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"I looked out the windows because we were expecting visitors. As they were walking up to their trailer I heard her voice. She said while looking at our trailer, "And they seemed like such nice fellows too."

I did a "Wow!!!" and my friend woke up. I related to him what I just witnessed. He was out for less than a minute. I asked him if he remembered anything and he said "no." - wolverine


------------------------

Similar things have happened to me in church. I usually sit right behind our preacher. Once there was a speaker up front and I quietly whispered under my breath "hard act to follow" and then as the song leader was going up front, just a second later the song leader said "hard act to follow." Our preacher turned around and said "how do you do that?" I told him it just pops into my head.

Another time our preacher was talking and he said he didn't know how to pronounce something and I said out loud "Bhagavad Gita." Someone asked our preacher how I knew what he was trying to say and I told him "it just popped into my head." It just happens to me sometimes.

What I've found is that hard core skeptics won't believe unless it happens to them.

It's a byproduct of the interconnectedness of our Universe. It's "holographic nature."

Art
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"Between Art's liberalism and the holographic universe, I have learned that we are separate but equal individuals." aolf


Equal on the other side. The place we call Heaven. On this side? Not so much. Some folks are born with high I.Q.'s, good looks, wealth, born in the right country, good DNA, good immune systems, etc. Other people are born ugly, mean, nasty, stupid, poor, cystic acne, born in the wrong country, etc.

Or as a preacher told me one time when I was still young, "Art, life isn't fair. Get over it."

Artie
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I was once on American airlines flying for business a few years ago. I was doing a crossword puzzle in their in flight magazine. One of the clues was "a female name" or something to that effect. Can't remember but I had almost gotten the answer or just got the answer and filled it in with my pen. I swear, literally 2-3 minutes later the flight attendent walked up to me to ask for my drink order. I saw the name on her tag. Same exact name as on the puzzle - Arliss. What are the odds? That's a very uncommon name.
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Art wrote: I went from no hope to having a high degree of confidence that life is meaningful and that we are here for a reason and that one day I will be reunited with my loved ones that have gone on before me. I believe that counts for something. Makes life a little more bearable.

Say hello to Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot when you get there.

Pfffft!
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"Say hello to Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot when you get there.
Pfffft!" catherine


That is the equivalent of saying "You can go to hell then!" That is how the idea of hell came about. People who were too frustrated to understand or reason so they threw their hands up and said "well you can just go to hell!"

There is no need to be saved because we were never lost. Our Universe is perfect and the Creator made no mistakes. Everything is working the way it's supposed to.

My God is smarter than your God. My God was able to create a Universe where everyone learns what they are supposed to learn regardless of who they are, or where they live, or what they believe. My God was able to create a Universe where the soul's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and it is holistically imprinted with what it needs to learn just as it goes about living its life.

"I knew that everything is perfect and happening according to some divine plan, regardless of all the things we see as wrong with the world." - excerpt from Carl Turner's experience, http://www.beyondreligion.com/su_personal/dreamsvisions-kund...

Art
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Equal on the other side. The place we call Heaven. On this side? Not so much. Some folks are born with high I.Q.'s, good looks, wealth, born in the right country, good DNA, good immune systems, etc. Other people are born ugly, mean, nasty, stupid, poor, cystic acne, born in the wrong country, etc.
-------------------

Somebody has to be the intestines of the holographic body.

arrete
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"Somebody has to be the intestines of the holographic body." - arrete


It all has to do with that duality and separation thing. The good thing is we'll look back on this life like it was "a dream in itself" and that it went by in the blink of an eye. While we're here we think it lasts a long time but looking back from the other side it will seem like it all happened in the blink of an eye.

Michael Talbot says that if our Universe is a holographic projection that means it's "maya", an illusion. I think that is the key to the whole thing. While we are here we take it all so seriously but looking back from the other side? Not so much.

I suspicion we are little more than actors in a play, unknowingly playing our parts so that we experience all the emotion that is needed to imprint on the soul the lessons that it needs to learn. The education of the soul is too important to leave up to chance and the more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates.

Artie
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Art wrote: My God is smarter than your God. My God was able to create a Universe where everyone learns what they are supposed to learn regardless of who they are, or where they live, or what they believe. My God was able to create a Universe where the soul's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and it is holistically imprinted with what it needs to learn just as it goes about living its life.


I find this concept offensive.

What you're saying is that the entity (hologram, or force, or spirit or whatever you call it) that created the universe, with all its mystery, splendor and majesty, and then put people in it who're capable of great intellect, compassion, kindness, intensity and drive, but who're also capable of evil, malice, pain and injustice, will one day simply melt into delightful perfection with no demands whatsoever to answer for what we had been and what we did while we lived here. We just go about doing and believing whatever we wish, gathering "soul lessons"--negative and positive--and then one day poof! We join occupancy with other Beautiful Dreamers in a holographic universe that's everything we longed for and more--no questions asked.

Nonsense.

There will be a reckoning. I won't have to tolerate standing next to this world's most despicable despots who made this life sheer misery for so many. God is a loving God, but He is also a just God. Art, if you ever for once thoroughly analyzed the so called plan of salvation, you'd understand that its simplicity and grace smashes your "doesn't matter what you believe; it's all good in the end" theory to smithereens.

I agree with you that the Creator makes no mistakes. Creator has given us all free will. We blew it, but He has also given us an "out," so to speak, that satisfies His sense of justice while fully expressing His extreme love.

Please do yourself a favor. Take a break from absorbing NDEs. You must have read a thousand of them by now. Graduate to deep analysis of core concepts that if you're honest with yourself, do exist: right, wrong, justice, love, hate. I've mentioned this book before. While at times a difficult read, you can skim over the esoteric bits and easily get to the gist of the matter. God cares about right behavior and has a plan to rescue all of us from our propensity to not do the right thing at all times.

Here's the complete book in PDF format.

http://usminc.org/images/MereChristianitybyCSLewis.pdf
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CC:

The problem with all of that is that Jesus never intended to found a religion, let alone one based on himself.

James (Jesus' brother) argued that the message should be solely reserved for Jews, whereas others felt that the message was meant for all mankind. If Jesus intended to found a religion, doesn't it seem logical that this would be the first question answered?

If Jesus truly felt that his words were the same as God's, why didn't he commission one of his more learned disciples to jot down everything he said? Surely, he had more to say than just the snippets we have today that are allegedly credited to him.

Jesus' message had many different flavors (Essenes, Gnostics, etc...) until the Council of Nicea (held at the bequest of Emperor Constantine) in 325 AD codified the rules. The Council blended the then existing pagan Roman beleifs with those held by the various Christian sects to form a state religion.

There were something like 84 different Gospels in 325 AD making the rounds. The Council chose the four the best mirrored the message they wanted to convey. Many of these other Gospels can still be found today in the Apocrypha.

I could go on, but I think I made my point.
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"Nonsense. There will be a reckoning. I won't have to tolerate standing next to this world's most despicable despots who made this life sheer misery for so many. God is a loving God, but He is also a just God." catherine


What if you had a potter and he made 100 pots and only 3 of them were any good and the other 97 were so bad that he tossed them into dump? You'd think, "he must not be a very good potter?"

Now what if you had a father and he had ten children and only 1 out the 10 turned out good and the other 9 turned out bad? You might think, "he must not be a very good father?"

Early on in the Bible it says we are made in the image of God and then later on it says "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." How can this be? How can a creature that was made in God's image sin and fall short? It's illogical.

The problem is that the Bible is full of contradictions. It says "thou shalt not kill" yet just a few chapters later this same God tells his followers to go into a town and kill everyone, man, woman, and children? Does this make any sense?

I'm afraid Catherine I know the Bible way better than you do. I know it's faults as well as it high points.

But what if there was some kind of Creator that was able to create a Universe where all you had to do was live? Just live, that's all, and simply by living in it you learned what you were supposed to learn without even knowing it? It really didn't matter if you believed anything or nothing at all. Where the lessons you were supposed to learn were embedded in your everyday life and simply by living you were being imprinted with the knowledge and lessons that the soul needed to learn.

The arguing and disagreeing we do on this board, and any other message board, is just another way for the soul to experience separation and learn what it means and how it feels to be separate, something it can't learn in Heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness.

When we cross over into that Light we shall all be healed.

Art
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The problem is that the Bible is full of contradictions

Which is why I consider it a well-intentioned book written by humans containing spiritual insights, fables, legends, and legitimate history.

Since it is written by humans, for humans, it is going to have its shotcomings. There is nothing wrong with trying to encourage folks to be better people. Just understand it for what it is.
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Art wrote: I'm afraid, Catherine, I know the Bible way better than you do.

That may be, but the really, really, REALLY important parts flew right over your head. ;-)
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so, how's the weather out your way? :)
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It's another day in Paradise, LD. ;-)

Speaking of Paradise, this was published just today.

Heaven Is Real: A Doctor’s Experience With the Afterlife

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-he...
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catherine posts, Speaking of Paradise, this was published just today.

Heaven Is Real: A Doctor’s Experience With the Afterlife

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-he...

---------------


Yes, that story is about Dr. Eben Alexander, a neurosurgeon. He had severe meningitis which led to a profound NDE.

Dr. Mary Neal, an orthopedic surgeon was on Katie today. She had an NDE in a Kayaking accident when she was forced under water for 15 minutes.

These people are not crackpots or ner'-do-wells. They are highly educated intelligent people whose lives and the way they think about life and the world was changed forever because of what happened to them.

Artie
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Actually, I think NDEs are not only possible, but probable.

But that doesn't resolve the problem (if you will) of human beings being reconciled to their Creator.

Wouldn't it be simply awful if these people who experienced a NDE then do nothing about it; then when they actually die (for good), they don't get to stay in the Heaven they glimpsed the first time.

I can't think of anything more tragic. They knew. They knew!!
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catherine, " Actually, I think NDEs are not only possible, but probable. But that doesn't resolve the problem (if you will) of human beings being reconciled to their Creator. Wouldn't it be simply awful if these people who experienced a NDE then do nothing about it; then when they actually die (for good), they don't get to stay in the Heaven they glimpsed the first time. I can't think of anything more tragic. They knew. They knew!"
---------------------------

Why would a Creator create such a flawed individual that they needed saving? He must have been a pretty stupid and inept god/creator to begin with? A potter that creates flawed pots is a very poor potter indeed. A father that has children so bad that they have to spend eternity burning in Hell is a very poor father indeed. Wouldn't a very highly evolved God be able to create "children" who were perfect with no need for saving? Ones that automatically do what it is He wants them to do?

The whole idea that there must be sacrifice and that another person can take your place comes from ancient Babylonia. It's a very ancient idea that has carried over into Judaeo-Christian-Islamic law. In Islam if you murder someone you can pay off the family to get forgiveness. It's all the same thing.

I have 30 graduate hours in Holistic teaching and learning. To learn holistically means that just as you go about your daily life you pick up the skills and knowledge you need to survive. I suspicion that is what the Creator did when he created our Universe. We are here simply to live and just by living we learn what it is we are supposed to learn.

Art
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The problem with all of that is that Jesus never intended to found a religion, let alone one based on himself.

James (Jesus' brother) argued that the message should be solely reserved for Jews, whereas others felt that the message was meant for all mankind. If Jesus intended to found a religion, doesn't it seem logical that this would be the first question answered?

If Jesus truly felt that his words were the same as God's, why didn't he commission one of his more learned disciples to jot down everything he said? Surely, he had more to say than just the snippets we have today that are allegedly credited to him.

Jesus' message had many different flavors (Essenes, Gnostics, etc...) until the Council of Nicea (held at the bequest of Emperor Constantine) in 325 AD codified the rules. The Council blended the then existing pagan Roman beleifs with those held by the various Christian sects to form a state religion.

There were something like 84 different Gospels in 325 AD making the rounds. The Council chose the four the best mirrored the message they wanted to convey. Many of these other Gospels can still be found today in the Apocrypha.

I could go on, but I think I made my point.


------------------------------------------

Thanks wolverine, that was interesting.

I usually don't participate in religious discussions but so far this seems like an interesting and reasonable discussion of belief systems. Here's is one of my thoughts on the matter.

If an omnipotent creator exists, then who is to say "He" didn't create millions of civilizations, all sorts of other scentient life forms, spread throughout the universe. Some even call on AOL at times.

It seems arrogant to belive Gods plan is all about us, simple humans - a common carbon based lifeform, that has only been around a few hundred thousand years, inhabiting an obscure planet in a backwater of a rather small and unremarkable galaxy.

If there is a grand design, we humans, more than likely, are insignificant, the way bacteria are insignificant in the Christian theories of salvation.
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Art wrote: Why would a Creator create such a flawed individual that they needed saving?

Two words. Free will.
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It seems arrogant to belive Gods plan is all about us, simple humans - a common carbon based lifeform, that has only been around a few hundred thousand years, inhabiting an obscure planet in a backwater of a rather small and unremarkable galaxy.

If there is a grand design, we humans, more than likely, are insignificant, the way bacteria are insignificant in the Christian theories of salvation.
----------------

I'm with BHM. I'm rooting for the Hortas.

arrete - despite the "humor", I do agree. And I don't care. I'm happy being a tiny bit of the universe.
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If an omnipotent creator exists, then who is to say "He" didn't create millions of civilizations, all sorts of other scentient life forms, spread throughout the universe. Some even call on AOL at times.
---------------

Mike that's an excellent rational question. But once u start asking questions like this, it's really not a religious discussion anymore. You are venturing into the area of testable hypothesis, and scientific thought. Once you start asking very good, probing questions, they're really not religious questions anymore. Ultimately, religious beliefs rests on faith.... by definition. At some point in the line of inquiry about matters of fact or rational conjecture, you're going to have to ask, "well, prove it." At that point you are asking for evidence. At that it is no longer religion.
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"If an omnipotent creator exists, then who is to say "He" didn't create millions of civilizations, all sorts of other scentient life forms, spread throughout the universe. Some even call on AOL at times.

It seems arrogant to belive Gods plan is all about us, simple humans - a common carbon based lifeform, that has only been around a few hundred thousand years, inhabiting an obscure planet in a backwater of a rather small and unremarkable galaxy." - bighairymike


-------------------------


Some people who have NDE's come back and say our Universe is alive with life.

Art
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"Two words. Free will." catherine


Is an illusion. I could re-post the links that support that but you wouldn't bother clicking on them and reading them.

Art
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Art, if free will is an illusion don't ever ask me to read a link of yours ever again. Problem is you really don't believe what what you preach. You don't believe it. If u really did u wouldn't even post on the boards because you'd lay back and let it happen on its own. But u don't. U believe in free will. We'd all lay on the bed and never mo be a muscle of we truly believed a mechanism beyond our own free will. Art, no way u believe it. U don't. U lose credibility if u do.
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Art, if free will is an illusion don't ever ask me to read a link of yours ever again. Problem is you really don't believe what what you preach. You don't believe it. If u really did u wouldn't even post on the boards because you'd lay back and let it happen on its own. But u don't. U believe in free will. We'd all lay on the bed and never mo be a muscle of we truly believed a mechanism beyond our own free will. Art, no way u believe it. U don't. U lose credibility if u do.

--------------

That's a lotta "u"s....
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U's......been posting from an iPhone. Damn keyboard is the size of a civet cat's paw print.
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Damn keyboard is the size of a civet cat's paw print.

Friggin' Bush
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Sorry at some point Art is not a kid anymore. We all love Art and treat him with kids's gloves. I do too. The atheists, scientists, and straight thinkers on on this board would rip his logic to absolute threads. But we all hold back. Why? Because Art is a folksy guy and everyone loves him. That's the truth. My god, if some PA liberal came on here and wrote like he did, he'd be torn to pieces. But we love Art. So it doesn't happen. There it is. Be honest.
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But we all hold back. Why? Because Art is a folksy guy and everyone loves him. That's the truth.

I "hold back" because Art is entitled to his opinion. I usually choose not to engage him in the subject because I choose to agree to disagree and move on. He doesn't attack anyone. He respects the opinions of others.

I don't see why you're so upset. Leave him be. He isn't bothering anyone. If you don't like his NDE stuff, just move onto the next post, like he does when we get into our political discussions.

He doesn't behave like a PA type at all. Not. At. All.
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I'm not upset. So art can express his opinion but I cant ? I've seen u counter him. But I can't without your rebuttal? I'm sorry you rail against liberals who say govt can do so and so. But Art makes statements that are philosophically totally Against what I believe and your upset I raise an issue?? Problem is art is just like the PA's just in philosophy maybe not in politics. But u are ok with banging against politics. Know where the real lines are.
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Big difference.

Liberals seek to enslave me, Art does not.

What Art believes or does not beleive does not affect my life one way or the other. What will be in the afterlife, will be.
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My god wolf. He writes about nde's and how it doesn't matter how we live. No responsibility. No free will. Just lay there. My lord can any liberal do worse harm? Seriously that's what he writes about. Good thing is that no one really takes him seriously. Anyone? But I'm sure there are some who do..... That's the harm no one counters him because WE LOVE HIM. Worst excuse ever.
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"We'd all lay on the bed and never mo be a muscle of we truly believed a mechanism beyond our own free will." - aolf


I've tried that. It doesn't work. I get all achey and have to get up and move around. First thing is I have to empty my bladder. Then I have to eat something, then back to the bathroom, then I get bored and have to read, watch TV, or play on the internet.

Something forces me to get my ass out of bed.

Artie
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Art wrote: Is an illusion. I could re-post the links that support that but you wouldn't bother clicking on them and reading them.


I think you're an illusion, Art. Prove that you're not. ;-)
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"Sorry at some point Art is not a kid anymore. We all love Art and treat him with kids's gloves. I do too. The atheists, scientists, and straight thinkers on on this board would rip his logic to absolute threads. But we all hold back. Why? Because Art is a folksy guy and everyone loves him. That's the truth. My god, if some PA liberal came on here and wrote like he did, he'd be torn to pieces. But we love Art. So it doesn't happen. There it is. Be honest." Aolf

--------------------


Want to know a secret? I really do believe in all that holographic universe NDE stuff which means I really am suspicious of free will and lean heavily towards fate and predestination.

One other thing, I really like reading about death bed visions too.

Artie
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Art wrote: Something forces me to get my ass out of bed.


I can't imagine what, since it doesn't matter what you do.
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Art wrote: Want to know a secret? I really do believe in all that holographic universe NDE stuff

That's a secret? You don't say.
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"But Art makes statements that are philosophically totally Against what I believe and your upset I raise an issue?? " - aolf


You can believe whatever you want because it doesn't matter what anyone believes. You're still going to experience duality and separation, time and space, and make memories of what it was like and how it felt to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe.

We learn what we're supposed to learn regardless of who we are or where we live or what we believe. The soul's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and it is holistically imprinted with what it needs to learn even if you don't want to.

Art
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"That's the harm no one counters him because WE LOVE HIM. Worst excuse ever." aolf


Think that's bad? Wait till you get married. Then you'll really see what people will do for love.

Artie
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"I think you're an illusion, Art. Prove that you're not. ;-)" Catherine


I'm actually a computer program out of the University of Chicago.

Artie
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"I can't imagine what, since it doesn't matter what you do." Catherine

Pain in my lower abdomen caused by a bladder full of urine?

Art
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One thing Art, u never possibly EVER consider. Maybe you are wrong. Wrong....imagine that possibility.

Wow jeez.
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"One thing Art, u never possibly EVER consider. Maybe you are wrong. Wrong....imagine that possibility. Wow jeez." aolf


If you look at a puzzle and you see a tree you're pretty sure it's a tree.

I know a tree when I see one. It's like a puzzle with a whole bunch of pieces and when I look at all the pieces put together the answer just jumps out at me.

Art
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Art wrote: I know a tree when I see one. It's like a puzzle with a whole bunch of pieces and when I look at all the pieces put together the answer just jumps out at me.

People see what they want to see. Surely you know this.

This goes for faith as well.
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Mike that's an excellent rational question. But once u start asking questions like this, it's really not a religious discussion anymore. You are venturing into the area of testable hypothesis, and scientific thought. Once you start asking very good, probing questions, they're really not religious questions anymore. Ultimately, religious beliefs rests on faith.... by definition. At some point in the line of inquiry about matters of fact or rational conjecture, you're going to have to ask, "well, prove it." At that point you are asking for evidence. At that it is no longer religion.
______________________________


Having spoken to a number of quite religious folks regarding their beliefs I heartily disagree. Heck you can even find evidence in Art's posts quite often. You do not remotely drop religious folks out of most conversations when you ask for evidence. You do lose them when you demand facts, but only if you demand facts from only one side in the discussions.

I do not follow religion that much more closely than I follow the rules of grammar and care about spelling, that is somewhat but ain't worth more effort than that, but it is a very interesting topic if you get to speak with folks who are truly immersed in it, and I would say that a lack of evidence or lack of a great deal of reasoning in their belief is well blasphemous<grin>
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What Art believes or does not beleive does not affect my life one way or the other. What will be in the afterlife, will be.
____________________________

But Art's philosophy if adopted by many would be an unmitigated disaster akin to an Obama re-election<grin>

I say that in jest, but also am serious. Were Art not actually apparently a grounded Christian in most of his philosophy with a nod toward NDE when he just doesn't want to do something he would be a rather dangerous anarchist most likely.

Doesn't care when or if he dies, believes events are predestined and he can't do anything about them therefore any acknowledgement of a being part of society is what? Through fear? Can't be self-interest in any good way, has to be base instinct to have an impact, as self interest would be silly in the face of true belief in pre-destination -- hungry? Take eat -- why save? Whatever will be will be, etc.

He lives with no congruity to his beliefs.

He's a nice guy, I enjoy his posts and hope he shares his beliefs. but when he gets in someone's grill and he does from time to time, he should know the blowback is going to be fairly harsh. It is one thing to share one's beliefs and I love when ARt does that, another entirely to lecture, and Art does that too.

While we are a much much better community here due to Art;s posting and in particular his eclectic interests, lief the rest of us at times he can be a pain in the butt.
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"I can't imagine what, since it doesn't matter what you do." Catherine

Pain in my lower abdomen caused by a bladder full of urine?

Art


>>>>>>>
yes, that and food.
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My god wolf. He writes about nde's and how it doesn't matter how we live. No responsibility. No free will. Just lay there. My lord can any liberal do worse harm? Seriously that's what he writes about. Good thing is that no one really takes him seriously. Anyone? But I'm sure there are some who do..... That's the harm no one counters him because WE LOVE HIM. Worst excuse ever.


Liberals force their opinions on me at the point of a gun. Art does not. I am surprised that you can make the above statement that I put in bold.
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"the rest of us at times he can be a pain in the butt." - lowstudent

---------------------


I get tired of clicking past all the political drivel. Post after post after post of political whining. It gets old.

Artie
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""I can't imagine what, since it doesn't matter what you do." Catherine
----------------------
"Pain in my lower abdomen caused by a bladder full of urine?" - Art
---------------------------
"yes, that and food." - Luckydog

-----------------------


I've actually tried laying in bed, and some mornings it would be nice to just lay there because it's so warm and comfry - and I've actually tried that but I get antsy and it gets uncomfortable lying there. Like it makes my bones hurt or something. Like I have to get up and move around because it gets uncomfortable just lying there. I have to get up and move around. Like my body demands it. Life forces me to move and do something. As much as I'd like to do nothing - sometimes I have do something.


Art
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"Liberals force their opinions on me at the point of a gun. Art does not. I am surprised that you can make the above statement that I put in bold." - Wolverine


Besides which no one takes me seriously and/or understands a thing I'm talking about. The only converts I've managed to gather are a few people like me who were all ready a little off the deep end.

So as far as me changing the world you needn't worry.

Art
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Free will...fate

In Christian Evangelical circles, the argument is 'election' vs. 'predestination'. It is more often associated with how God saves us then how we live. But it is debated endlessly by both sides.

If some are predestined to be "saved" or "not saved" then the "con" argument goes, "why bother spreading the gospel of JC. Either way. God makes the determination. Just enjoy life. Don't bother doing good things like giving to charities, starting foundations or building non-profit hospitals. Nothing really matters".

The 'pro' argument goes that since God is in total control, he knows everything and controls everything so you can be at peace, kind of where I see Art.

In the New Testament, there are various scriptures that have been interpreted to support both views. Many of Paul's statements give me a headache. It is difficult the understand the existential undpinnings. That's why I'm an athlete and a computer programmer. I like logic. I do this and it results in that. I train hard and I can perform better. I wrote a line of code and expect it to behave as I programmed it.

I think God just knows everything: past, present & future so it gives the appearance of predestination. But I try to live like everything depends on my next move or decision.

decath
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Quoted: Were Art not actually apparently a grounded Christian in most of his philosophy with a nod toward NDE when he just doesn't want to do something he would be a rather dangerous anarchist most likely.

I don't perceive Art to be a Christian at all.

There may be some debate about what constitutes "Christian." I understand it to mean someone who has come to the understanding that, without Jesus Christ's intervention, they're hopelessly lost and destined to enter Eternity outside the presence of God.

Recognizing this, they ask God to forgive them--which of course He will--and then they feel compelled to live an earthly life more in line with how God wants it lived, using the operations manual (Bible) and community structure (church) He has provided. Jesus Christ is the example Christians seek to follow as described in the Bible. Christians fail often in this goal. Rome wasn't built in a day, but the more they succeed, the better this life is (in my experience), although not without challenges.

Art apparently doesn't feel the need to surrender to God's will because he doesn't think it matters what he does or believes; that Heaven awaits him no matter what he does or believes. I'm not judging this point of view--that's not my place--I'm merely stating what I perceive, based on his posts, Art's position to be regarding God and Heaven. Art is in active rebellion against God, which is what free will is all about. This isn't judgment on my part, but an observation.
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LOL! I'm going to tell you a great secret! On this board are many lurkers. I get private emails thanking me for spiritual oriented posts. They tell me my posts are interesting and please keep posting.

I'm going to tell you another secret, there are some regular posters on this board that don't want ya'll to know they are interested in spiritual New Age type stuff. One of them is a nurse and has experienced first hand death bed visions in a hospice type situation.

They are afraid to open about it because they are afraid of ridicule plus they aren't interested in arguing about it.

All is not as it seems.

Artie



I never get private emails from lurkers here, i have so little.

Your post reminded me that one day I am going to talk about my interesting experiences using a Ouija board... and let the chips fall where they may. If people think I'm weird, so be it.
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Art wrote: I went from no hope to having a high degree of confidence that life is meaningful and that we are here for a reason and that one day I will be reunited with my loved ones that have gone on before me. I believe that counts for something. Makes life a little more bearable.

Say hello to Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot when you get there.

Pfffft!



I just thought of another funny story I read in my cousin's blog last night. Once when she was visiting her grandmother (my aunt Carol who died last year) in the nursing home, Aunt Carol told her of a friend at the home who had just died in her 90s. The friend had told Aunt Carol, just before she passed on, that after she arrived at the pearly gates, she would leave the key under the mat for her so that Aunt Carol could find it when she arrived afterward.

My cousin was caught off guard by this story, was uncomfortable and didn't quite know what to say. She finally said, "Well, Grandma, when you get there, make sure to check the door and see how hot it is before you open it."

My Aunt Carol couldn't help but burst out laughing.
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There may be some debate about what constitutes "Christian." I understand it to mean someone who has come to the understanding that, without Jesus Christ's intervention, they're hopelessly lost and destined to enter Eternity outside the presence of God.

Recognizing this, they ask God to forgive them--which of course He will--and then they feel compelled to live an earthly life more in line with how God wants it lived, using the operations manual (Bible) and community structure (church) He has provided. Jesus Christ is the example Christians seek to follow as described in the Bible. Christians fail often in this goal. Rome wasn't built in a day, but the more they succeed, the better this life is (in my experience), although not without challenges.



Hey Catherine, what about all the people living in remote places over the past two thousand years who never heard of the Bible or Jesus or any of that? They can't believe that Jesus died for their sins and accept Him as their Savior because they never heard of any of that. What happens to them when they die? Do they all go to Hell because they didn't believe in something they never heard of?
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"Do they all go to Hell because they didn't believe in something they never heard of?" andrew


Besides which belief isn't a choice. It's just something that happens to you. Two different people can read and examine the same evidence and come to very different conclusions. It's not like they "chose" to believe something happened or not, it's just something that sort of happens to them after going through the process.

A lot of atheists know more abour Religion and the bible than a lot of Christians yet they came to very different conclusions. It's just how they're mind works.

Art
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"It's just how they're mind works." - art


whoops. Their mind works....

Artie
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Andrew wrote: Whatever you focus your attention on, that is what you see and experience. "As a man thinketh, so is he."

That's a reasonable question, Andrew. After all, we live on a planet populated by approximately six billion people, most of whom have never heard of Jesus Christ. What about them? Obviously, they can't respond to the message of the Gospel, even though they might be willing to do so if presented with the prospect. What will happen to these people? Will they be lost eternally? Or will God make some kind of “special allowance” so that they can be saved and thereby enjoy eternity in Heaven with Him and His Son?

Although the Bible never explicitly says that someone who has never heard of Jesus can be saved, I believe it infers this. I'm pretty certain that every person, in his heart of hearts, knows where he stands with God. S/he knows whether there's a clear relationship there or not. I don't think God will exclude anyone because s/he happened to be born at the wrong place and at the wrong time and so never heard of Jesus Christ but s/he will be judged according to his/her relationship with God.

But that doesn't apply to you or anyone else who has heard the Gospel and understands what's required to be reconciled with God so, really, the question is moot.
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Oops...sometimes my browser doesn't cut/paste correctly. Andrew's questions was:

What about all the people living in remote places over the past two thousand years who never heard of the Bible or Jesus or any of that? They can't believe that Jesus died for their sins and accept Him as their Savior because they never heard of any of that. What happens to them when they die? Do they all go to Hell because they didn't believe in something they never heard of?
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Art wrote: Besides which belief isn't a choice. It's just something that happens to you.

Well, that's along the lines of predestination that decath mentioned, but I don't subscribe to that theory.

Everyone is at choice. All the time. Art, you've purposely avoided, all these years, the main message of the Gospel because you prefer your "it's all good for everyone" theory. That's your choice. You know all about Christ's sacrifice and gift. You're comfortable declining it, but I really don't think you can honestly say you have no choice about belief.

Have you ever, in the quiet of your thoughts, asked God to reveal Himself to you? If you sincerely ask, He will.
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Hey Catherine, what about all the people living in remote places over the past two thousand years who never heard of the Bible or Jesus or any of that? They can't believe that Jesus died for their sins and accept Him as their Savior because they never heard of any of that. What happens to them when they die? Do they all go to Hell because they didn't believe in something they never heard of?
______________________________

Well, first let's consider that organized religion and the bible are two different things.

NExt, let's consider that accepting God and living life in a certain way does not take a book. So you can fully accept Jesus even if you never heard of him, or his name is Oinga Boinga. Assuming God revealed himself solely through the Bible might be a bit myopic.

But, but the Bible says you have to..... Well, yeah, if you have come upon the book, it has revealed a set of guidelines that God set forth, making things a little easier as you do not have to create an entire moral framework for yourself. So enjoy.

Remember, the book is God communicating through a 2nd party to get a message out to a specific audience. IT kinda fits in with the whole free will thingie.

Whether you believe of not, the concepts are not that hard. Religion has done some stuff, well lots of stuff, to objuscate the purpose of the Bible (if you assume it is God's word) in many cases, but you do not really need the book. If you accept God into your very being, and allow your actions to be guided from the conversations you have for a force that is all good, you really would be right on track, even if you did not know its' name.
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"Have you ever, in the quiet of your thoughts, asked God to reveal Himself to you? If you sincerely ask, He will." - catherine


Yes I have and what He's told me is that the NDE/death bed visions/holographic universe theory comes closest to the truth.

Artie
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"Have you ever, in the quiet of your thoughts, asked God to reveal Himself to you? If you sincerely ask, He will." - catherine


Yes I have and what He's told me is that the NDE/death bed visions/holographic universe theory comes closest to the truth.

Artie

..........................

In 12 step programs in working on whether something is God's will or not, it is recommended that we check it out with a sponsor or another trusted individual because we can sometimes think something is God's will when in actuality, it's our own. Arrogance,pride, fear, envy are the character defects we all struggle with and it gets in the way of knowing and doing God's will.

LD
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I think God just knows everything: past, present & future so it gives the appearance of predestination. But I try to live like everything depends on my next move or decision.

decath


I look at it this way. Our current time and place is the middle of a spider web. We can make several choices, the strands radiating out from the middle. God can see where all those choices will lead, He sees the big picture.

Our initial choice doesn't restrict our final outcome too much. We can easily move over a strand or two. But after several choices, the outcome gets to be restricted. The strands are too far apart to jump over.

So we have both freedom of choice and to a certain extent predestination (based on our freedom of choice).

JLC
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Art wrote: Yes I have and what He's told me is that the NDE/death bed visions/holographic universe theory comes closest to the truth.

How did that conversation go, if you remember?
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JLC wrote: I look at it this way. Our current time and place is the middle of a spider web. We can make several choices, the strands radiating out from the middle. God can see where all those choices will lead, He sees the big picture. [etc]

I like your analogy. Actually, the Bible is filled to the brim with analogies to describe concepts that are otherwise difficult to understand.

My pastor is also skilled in explaining obscure Bible passages by using personal stories and/or analogies. His weekly messages can be accessed on the church website. I perceive that many here would enjoy them.

http://seabreezechurch.com/mediaGallery/index.html
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"How did that conversation go, if you remember?" - catherine


You really want to know? Okay, Alison Krauss has a song called "There is a Reason" written by Ron Block who plays in her band, and I really like that song. I'd listen to it over and over while I was in the kitchen doing dishes. I do a lot of good thinking when I'm staring out the window washing dishes.

So while I was listening to that song I'd be wondering "what is the reason? Why are we here, what is it all about, why pain and suffering, etc." I'd ask over and over and over again. I really wanted to know.

We lived in an A Frame House and had a great big giant stone fireplace that sort of stood in the middle of the house. It was between the kitchen and the dining/living room (one big room) and it sort of blocked the way into the living room. So a lot of times when I'd walk through that doorway I'd stub my toe on the stones in that fireplace. I'd grab my toe and ask God, "Why? Why the pain? Why so much?" etc. We lived there 20 years so I probably did that over a hundred times. Another words, I bugged God like a kid would do.

So, around the year 2000 I found a site on the internet called www.SurvivalScience.org and I started reading some of the links they had on that site. One link was to the near-death.com website and another link was to the Universe as a hologram website. I thought the Universe as a hologram website was fascinating and I found out it was written by Michael Talbot and that he had written a whole book about it called The Holographic Universe.

I bought a copy of that book from Amazon.com and read it and it changed my life. Michael Talbot was a Science Writer by the way. He wrote scientific articles for journals and magazines for a living. He was a gay man who lived in New York City. He died of Leukemia in 1992 2 months after The Holographic Universe was published.

So after reading that book and reading some web information on near death experiences I was walking out of Big Lots in Middlesboro, Kentucky one day and the word "duality" just popped into my head. I don't know where it came from or why it popped into my head but it did.

Then a few days later as I was walking through that doorway between our living room and the dining room all of a sudden the whole thing was downloaded fully formed into my head. All of a sudden I knew the answers to all my questions, why are we here, why do we suffer, why do we experience so much separation in life, why emotion, all of it.

It was like everything in my life came together and I saw the puzzle. Like the game show on TV where they put the letters up on the board and after you get enough letters you see what the statement says, it was obvious to me what it all meant. I knew the answer to some of life's most profound questions.

The problem is putting it in a short enough form to where I can share it. Unless one has read all the stuff I've read it really is understandable. Unless one knows about holograms and how they are generated and has taken courses in holistic teaching and learning it is difficult to understand.


Art
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Art wrote: So after reading that book and reading some web information on near death experiences I was walking out of Big Lots in Middlesboro, Kentucky one day and the word "duality" just popped into my head. I don't know where it came from or why it popped into my head but it did.


Do you often think that anything that pops into your head is God-inspired?

Just kidding.

What I meant was, did you ever actually sit in a still and quiet place and, sincerely and with reverence, address God with your questions and ask Him to help you understand?
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"What I meant was, did you ever actually sit in a still and quiet place and, sincerely and with reverence, address God with your questions and ask Him to help you understand?" - catherine


Yes, and this was the answer I got.

Why We Are Here

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Books/holographic_universe.htm

And by the way arguing and disagreeing about free will and predestination is just another way to experience duality and separation.

Art
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Art wrote: And by the way arguing and disagreeing about free will and predestination is just another way to experience duality and separation.

On this topic, Art, you're a hack. You could give Robert Kiyosaki a run for his money.

But I like your stories. ;-)
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