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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 63279  
Subject: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/20/2012 12:15 PM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/20/us/politics/todd-akin-prov...

Senate Candidate Provokes Ire With ‘Legitimate Rape’ Comment

. . . Asked in an interview on a St. Louis television station about his views on abortion, Mr. Akin, a six-term member of Congress who is backed by Tea Party conservatives, made it clear that his opposition to the practice was nearly absolute, even in instances of rape.

“It seems to me, from what I understand from doctors, that’s really rare,” Mr. Akin said of pregnancies from rape. “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. But let’s assume that maybe that didn’t work or something: I think there should be some punishment, but the punishment ought to be of the rapist, and not attacking the child.” . . .


The only people more ill-informed than TeaPublican politicians must be the people who support them.

I wonder . . . if TeaPublicans are successful in suppressing voting, re-pealing the 17th amendment, and turning America's government over entirely to corporations . . . is that an example of "Legitimate Rape"?
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Author: PolymerMom Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44778 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/20/2012 8:42 PM
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The "legitimate rape" and chance of pregnancy garbage is straight out of the died-in-the-wool pro-lifers' handbook. Akin's very pro-life.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44807 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/21/2012 1:10 PM
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<< The "legitimate rape" and chance of pregnancy garbage is straight out of the died-in-the-wool pro-lifers' handbook. Akin's very pro-life.>>



Of course that's not true.


Fake rapes include cases where women get pregnant and then look for a man to blame. And "statutory rape" is a bogus form that uses the term rape even when sex was consensual.

I suppose "legitimate rape" is an unfortunate term for occasions when someone is forced to have sex without their consent.

I always find it amusing that liberals find that a fourteen year old is competent to consent to having an abortion without the consent or knowledge of her parents but is deemed to be incompetent to consent to the sex which got her pregnant.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: StockGoddess Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44809 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/21/2012 1:13 PM
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So what is "Legitimate Rape"?

He's basically saying that a lot of the time when women get raped, they were asking for it or just making it up. This is the guy who said a rape bill could be used by "women angry at an ex husband".

So a lot of the time, women just make up the whole rape thing, on a whim, to this guy. Or they're asking for it. Obviously if they get pregnant, it must have been willing s*x because we can control with mysterious forces when we get pregnant.

Ryan and this guy have also used the term "forcible rape" to categorize rape in senate bills.

So - how badly beaten does a woman need to be for the rape to be "legitimate". What if she wasn't hit at all but simply held at gunpoint or knife point? What if she was drugged unconscious? What if she's 12 years old? Mentally retarded? Or if the rapist is someone she knows - an ex, a camp counselor, a preacher, a neighbor, a prison guard, a date - it's not legitimate then? Hey, he bought her dinner, she agreed to the date, he deserved a little "payback" so it wasn't really rape...and she got pregnant, so she MUST have wanted it.

Anyone who can even categorize rape as "legitimate" or not is a very, very disturbed person...

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Author: StockGoddess Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44810 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/21/2012 1:20 PM
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I always find it amusing that liberals find that a fourteen year old is competent to consent to having an abortion without the consent or knowledge of her parents but is deemed to be incompetent to consent to the sex which got her pregnant.



Fourteen is too young to "consent". Five is too young to "consent". There's always a chance it was the parent who got her pregnant to begin with, too (or mama's boyfriend or a cousin or neighbor).

In a perfect world underage children would always have caring parents with good health insurance and would be taught sex ed and would never get pregnant at 14. We have statutory rape laws so that 20 year old @ss*oles wouldn't be tempted to talk innocent 14 year olds into sex. It's to keep the pedophiles and preditors from saying "she consented".

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44811 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/21/2012 1:43 PM
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<<Anyone who can even categorize rape as "legitimate" or not is a very, very disturbed person...>>


Does Tawannah Brawley ring a bell?




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44812 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/21/2012 1:46 PM
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<<


Fourteen is too young to "consent". Five is too young to "consent". There's always a chance it was the parent who got her pregnant to begin with, too (or mama's boyfriend or a cousin or neighbor).
>>



Thanks you for being an example of a liberal who believes that a fourteen year old is old enough to consent to an abortion but not the sex that got her pregnant.



Millions of young teenagers get pregnant by consenting to the sex that got them pregnant. In your world, I suppose they are all victims of evil men.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: Wessex99 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44813 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/21/2012 7:35 PM
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The right-wing filth never gives up on its vile agenda. Nothing is too vile for them if it enhances their own power or reduces the power of anyone who is different or thinks differently.

Wessex

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44814 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/21/2012 11:28 PM
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I am disgusted that SP would even try to defend this.

That horrible man, Akin makes my skin crawl. He is beyond all civilized thought and comment.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44815 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/21/2012 11:36 PM
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<<In a perfect world underage children would always have caring parents with good health insurance and would be taught sex ed and would never get pregnant at 14. We have statutory rape laws so that 20 year old @ss*oles wouldn't be tempted to talk innocent 14 year olds into sex. It's to keep the pedophiles and preditors from saying "she consented".>>



Well. You have no problem with young girls who consent to having sex with a boy their own age --- which means that you are satisfied that they indeed are competent to consent to sex.


You just want to control with whom they have sex. You would be glad to send a twenty year old man to prison for having consensual sex with a fourteen-seventeen year old girl.

I'd prefer that young girls not have sex with ANY man or boy. But the age of the male doesn't really matter after a girl gets knocked up, does it?

This is just feminist sexism.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: PolymerMom Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44816 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/22/2012 12:33 AM
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You just want to control with whom they have sex. You would be glad to send a twenty year old man to prison for having consensual sex with a fourteen-seventeen year old girl.

May you reincarnate as a poor, underprivileged girl. Then you might know enough to talk about it.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44818 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/22/2012 2:00 AM
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<<May you reincarnate as a poor, underprivileged girl. Then you might know enough to talk about it.>>


May you be reincarnated as a twenty year old man doing ten years in prison for having sex with a woman he loves. Then you might know enough to talk about it.


The (let us say) seventeen year old girl who got pregnant and wishes to dump they guy and abort the baby will no doubt do so and be off to new sexual adventures within a matter of a few days or weeks.

Or perhaps she wants to keep the baby and avoid the guy having legal rights to visit his child.

The bottom line is that 14-17 years olds are deemed competent to consent to sex, but feminists don't want them to be able to have sex with older men and are willing to throw the men in jail if they fail to heed the demands of feminists.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44838 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/22/2012 12:36 PM
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Disgusting - absolutely disgusting defending him. There is no rationale for defending his language or his thoughts on this. Period.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44843 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/22/2012 3:05 PM
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<< Disgusting - absolutely disgusting defending him. There is no rationale for defending his language or his thoughts on this. Period.>>



As I said before, I'm not defending his unfortunate use of language "legitimate rape." However, the ideas behind it are inherently just and so-called statutory rape is commonly a sexist feminist notion and policy that oppresses men and not a few women as well --- Mary K Latourneuo being an example.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: StockGoddess Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44846 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/22/2012 11:15 PM
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Well. You have no problem with young girls who consent to having sex with a boy their own age --- which means that you are satisfied that they indeed are competent to consent to sex.


Where did I say that?

You would be glad to send a twenty year old man to prison for having consensual sex with a fourteen-seventeen year old girl.

Damn straight I would. You always talk about personal responsibility? Well, twenty is old enough to keep your d*ck in your pants and leave the little girls alone.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44866 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/23/2012 12:38 PM
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<<Damn straight I would. You always talk about personal responsibility? Well, twenty is old enough to keep your d*ck in your pants and leave the little girls alone.>>


Judging from the number of pregnant 14-17 years olds, a lot of girls don't share your values and they don't choose to have their bodies controlled by old women either.

The simple fact is that quite a few young girls are going to have sex whether adults like it or not. ( I don't happen to like it either).

The simple fact is that while you obviously relish the idea of locking up men who are having sex when you don't approve of it, this is just feminists trying to impose their own narrow minded sexual values on others.

You want to control who women are permitted to have sex with.

It's feminist sexism which I oppose.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: flowerschild Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44869 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/23/2012 1:29 PM
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You want to control who women are permitted to have sex with.

Seattle Pioneer



Aren't the ages mentioned in this thread that of 14-17 year old girls?

I absolutely believe that young girls(and boys) should be protected from predatory adult men.


flowerschild

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Author: flowerschild Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44870 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/23/2012 1:30 PM
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And predatory adult women, as well.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44871 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/23/2012 2:40 PM
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<<I absolutely believe that young girls(and boys) should be protected from predatory adult men.


flowerschild>>



Were you satisfied to lock up Mary K Latourneau in prison, away from the two children they had and her youthul lover?


As I understand it, they have since married.

Personally I think Latourneau should have been fired from her job as a teacher, but not prosecuted.

The simple fact is that there are a certain number of girls and boys who find adults with whom they choose to have sex --- entirely consensual. Where that is a fact, the adult should not be prosecuted.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44872 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/23/2012 2:45 PM
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<< And predatory adult women, as well.>>


"Predatory" is just a term for your own prejudice.


There is plenty of lust going on by many people of all ages.


I continue to suggest that the only real issue is whether the young adult involved consented to having sex with the adult. If they did then criminal prosecution of the adult is ludicrous.

And there are plenty of precocious young people who are having sex with young men every day. Using criminal laws to try to prevent that is futile and feminist sexism.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: Rael137 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44894 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/24/2012 3:59 AM
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Seattle Pioneer wrote:

The simple fact is that there are a certain number of girls and boys who find adults with whom they choose to have sex --- entirely consensual. Where that is a fact, the adult should not be prosecuted.

A 15 year old is not allowed to vote, purchase alcohol or tobacco, buy real estate, enlist in the military or (in some places) stay out late. All of these laws are made due to the recognition that a 15 year old is not capable of making a fully informed and mature decision. The consequences of making a poor decision override the benefit that may come from allowing a minor those rights. When it comes to sex, the potential consequences of an uninformed and immature decision can include pregnancy, disease, physical and psychological damage and even death. That is why we protect children and put the onus on adults to not engage them in such a potentially damaging encounter.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44901 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/24/2012 10:22 AM
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<<A 15 year old is not allowed to vote, purchase alcohol or tobacco, buy real estate, enlist in the military or (in some places) stay out late. All of these laws are made due to the recognition that a 15 year old is not capable of making a fully informed and mature decision. The consequences of making a poor decision override the benefit that may come from allowing a minor those rights. When it comes to sex, the potential consequences of an uninformed and immature decision can include pregnancy, disease, physical and psychological damage and even death. That is why we protect children and put the onus on adults to not engage them in such a potentially damaging encounter.>>


Note that I don't favor children having sex for all the reasons you suggest.

However, there is no law against children having sex, and that's glorified and encouraged by our cultural media.

Is it really more responsible for a 15 year old to have sex with another 15 year old than with an 18 or 20 year old? I don't think so.

So if you want to enforce your values, fine. Prohibit anyone from having sex with someone 15, 16, 17 years of age or whatever. Make two 15 year olds equally culpable.

That's not what we do.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: LOTROQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44903 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/24/2012 11:03 AM
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The simple fact is that there are a certain number of girls and boys who find adults with whom they choose to have sex --- entirely consensual. Where that is a fact, the adult should not be prosecuted.


That sounds like something straight out of a NAMBLA brochure. **shudder**

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Author: Rael137 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44907 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/24/2012 11:39 AM
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However, there is no law against children having sex,

Yes, there are age of consent laws some of which are applied no matter the age of the partner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_Americ...

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Author: jwiest Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44908 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/24/2012 11:54 AM
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"The simple fact is that there are a certain number of girls and boys who find adults with whom they choose to have sex --- entirely consensual. Where that is a fact, the adult should not be prosecuted."

A 15 year old is not allowed to vote, purchase alcohol or tobacco, buy real estate, enlist in the military or (in some places) stay out late. All of these laws are made due to the recognition that a 15 year old is not capable of making a fully informed and mature decision.


Far be it from me to support anything SP has to say, but I do think there is a general over-protectiveness of adolescents in our society, and it is a discredit to their capabilities. My parents were young when they met (17 and 14) and married (21 and 18) and I can say without hesitation they were far more mature at those ages than I was for an extra decade. Our society has "toddlerized" our teenagers, and teenagerized our 20-somethings, and the feedback loop has made your description above a self-fulfilling prophecy.

So I guess I agree with you in general in the context of today's children, but I think SP, being a crusty old *%*$, sees something lost, and I'd have to agree with that too.

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44925 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/24/2012 11:32 PM
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"I absolutely believe that young girls (and boys) should be protected from predatory adult men."

I wish the football coaches and senior administrators at Penn State had agreed with you.

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44926 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/24/2012 11:34 PM
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"That is why we protect children and put the onus on adults to not engage them in such a potentially damaging encounter."

What happened at Penn State then?

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44928 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/24/2012 11:44 PM
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<<The simple fact is that there are a certain number of girls and boys who find adults with whom they choose to have sex --- entirely consensual. Where that is a fact, the adult should not be prosecuted.


That sounds like something straight out of a NAMBLA brochure. **shudder**>>




It should sound familiar, it's exactly the same argument that has been used repeatedly by advocates of sexual liberation for many different issues.

In particular, it was most recently used when the Supreme Court decided that homosexuals couldn't be criminally prosecuted for having consensual sex.

However, feminist sexism persists in wanting to control who girls are allowed to love, and to criminally prosecute anyone who dares to defy their prejudices.


Seattle Pioneer

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44929 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/24/2012 11:45 PM
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"What happened at Penn State then?" - inconclusivefool


People who are criminals think about being a criminal 24 hours a day. They are always planning and conniving ways to play their dirty little games. People who live pretty much average or normal lives just go about their life working, eating, playing, watching TV and are oblivious to the darker element that lurk behind closed doors.

So while normal people are just living their normal little lives - evil people are planning their evil deeds. It is very difficult to out-think people who are intent on doing evil because they are always one step ahead of us. Their whole life is dedicated to whatever evil they happen to be into.

You have to be eternally vigilant and realize that evil exists. You have to accept that there are people who are intent on doing evil. You have to realize that there are people who are intent on hurting you and those you love. That Evil is very real and it exists.

Art

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Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44930 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/25/2012 12:16 AM
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"That Evil is very real and it exists."

Despite that, and you are so right, protecting football was more important than rooting out evil at Penn State. And to think there are people who still defend the old man and his cronies. Unbelieveable.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44931 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/25/2012 12:29 AM
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"Despite that, and you are so right, protecting football was more important than rooting out evil at Penn State. And to think there are people who still defend the old man and his cronies. Unbelieveable." - inclusivefool


It's the same mindset as the Catholic church. It's like they can't accept that there are people who are so corrupt and messed up that they will prey on kids and ruin their lives and mess up their minds and not give it a second thought.

That within their ranks there are people who are thinking about planning on doing something disgusting and life-ruining. People who, while you are doing whatever it is that football and religious people do, are scheming and conniving and thinking about how to do unspeakably things to kids.

So people close their eyes and think "oh that can't really be happening because I can't believe that he's that "kind" of person?" When kids came home from church and tried to tell their parents that Father So-and-So had touched them the parents couldn't believe that a priest, a "man of God" had really done that.

Evil exists and it is everywhere. There are predators out there and they are constantly scheming on how to do evil.

Art

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Author: Rael137 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44932 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/25/2012 12:55 AM
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What happened at Penn State then?

A total travesty perpetuated by people who cared more about their program, "legacy", privileges, and reputation than they cared about the safety and welfare of the children.

Yet there are people in the world who think that those young children should be able to consent to sex and not hold adults responsible for their part.

Seattle Pioneer wrote:
The simple fact is that there are a certain number of girls and boys who find adults with whom they choose to have sex --- entirely consensual.Where that is a fact,the adult should not be prosecuted.


I got news for him and his ilk, children are not capable of consenting to some acts. He uses the 12 year old boy with the 30 year old teacher example as one where the teacher shouldn't have been prosecuted. Also adults - especially ones in trusted or authority positions - can manipulate children into thinking things are their own idea/fault/responsibility.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44933 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/25/2012 1:00 AM
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it's exactly the same argument that has been used repeatedly by advocates of sexual liberation for many different issues.
For consenting ADULTS. Not 15-year-old kids. Or kids of any age.

Head desk.

Good god...I'm am totally creeped out at this point.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44935 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/25/2012 2:20 AM
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<<Also adults - especially ones in trusted or authority positions - can manipulate children into thinking things are their own idea/fault/responsibility.>>



I think it's appropriate to fire such people from their job, but not to prosecute them criminally.


We have made "love" the standard for behavior. If people "love" each other, then the state shouldn't prosecute them for having sex.

If we find that standard in the constitution to prevent homosexuals from being prosecuted, then it applies in other human relationships as well.



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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44936 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/25/2012 2:22 AM
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<< it's exactly the same argument that has been used repeatedly by advocates of sexual liberation for many different issues.
For consenting ADULTS. Not 15-year-old kids. Or kids of any age.
>>


That's your own hang up.

But give yourself time. When the sexual liberation movement starts cranking out the same old arguments to justify NAMBLA, you'll soon change your bigoted opinions.



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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44946 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 5:59 AM
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All of these laws are made due to the recognition that a 15 year old is not capable of making a fully informed and mature decision

Whether or not sex with 15 year-olds should be punished is a question that is entirely up for debate.
A large majority of 15-year olds can have a sexual relationship with 18+ year-olds without suffering psychological damage, as long as no exploitation (especially of a power relationship such as teacher-student etc.) is involved. This is even more true for 16-year-olds, which are usually what you would call "sexually mature".

Whether or not intervention by the government is warranted for sex at age 14-15 is debatable (I tend towards yes), but I believe that from age 16 the case for prohibition is very weak, and government intervention does (far) more harm then good to the participants.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44947 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 6:01 AM
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That sounds like something straight out of a NAMBLA brochure. **shudder**


I don't think NAMBLA is interested in post-pubescents, are they?

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44948 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 6:04 AM
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For consenting ADULTS. Not 15-year-old kids. Or kids of any age.

Head desk.

Good god...I'm am totally creeped out at this point.


Other countries - based on psychological research - tend to draw the line at age 14 or 16. Germany, for example, now draws the line at age 14 (absent factors such as teacher-pupil, employment relationship, intoxication etc.).

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44949 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 6:06 AM
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I think it's appropriate to fire such people from their job, but not to prosecute them criminally.

While I agree that the age limits for consensual sex in the US are clearly too high, teachers and other people working with juveniles in an authority position should ALWAYS be banned from having sex with them.


If we find that standard in the constitution to prevent homosexuals from being prosecuted, then it applies in other human relationships as well.


What the hell is your reasoning behind that?

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44950 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 11:59 AM
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"I don't think NAMBLA is interested in post-pubescents, are they?" - advocatus diaboli


My personal gut feeling? The whole thing is creepy. It smacks of exploitation. Sex is dangerous. Besides pregnancy there is venereal disease's like venereal warts, Herpes, chlamydia, HIV, syphillis, gonorrhea, fungus infections, etc. What the hell does a kid know about all that stuff?

Kids brains haven't developed and they get emotional and their hormones are raging, and just generally should be protected from sexual Predators - like old unmarried pedophiles who target kids. If kids have a bad home life predators know if they show kids love and acceptance they can get the kids to trust them and then manipulate them into sex. It's dangerous as hell.

Personally I think the age of consent should be 23.

Art

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44951 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 12:24 PM
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<<My personal gut feeling? The whole thing is creepy. It smacks of exploitation. Sex is dangerous. Besides pregnancy there is venereal disease's like venereal warts, Herpes, chlamydia, HIV, syphillis, gonorrhea, fungus infections, etc. What the hell does a kid know about all that stuff? >>



Even with all the patches and fixes of science and liberalism, the sexual liberation movement still works poorly and damages a lot of people in order to gratify people's lust.


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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44952 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 12:48 PM
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Kids brains haven't developed and they get emotional and their hormones are raging, and just generally should be protected from sexual Predators - like old unmarried pedophiles who target kids. If kids have a bad home life predators know if they show kids love and acceptance they can get the kids to trust them and then manipulate them into sex. It's dangerous as hell.


The human species has evolved to have sex at 15 or 16.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44953 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 1:17 PM
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"The human species has evolved to have sex at 15 or 16." - advocatusdiaboli


And so has chlamydia, AIDS, venereal warts, syphyllis, gonorrhea, Herpes, and god knows how many other venereal diseases.

People used to die at a very young age. They had to hurry up and reproduce quick before they died from infection, tuberculosis, or internal parasites. There is not as big a rush now to have sex and make babies as their was during the stone age when there was a chance you might be eaten by a saber toothed tiger or a cave bear.

The question is: "Are we going to protect our kids or not?" Sex is way more than just feeling good and getting off. When two people have sex it releases hormones in the brain that cause bonding and lasts for a couple of years. Do we really want our kids bonding with some old pervert and risk getting pregnant or picking up a venereal disease?

People who justify sex with kids more than likely have a hidden agenda. They don't have those kids best interest at heart. They are thinking of their own physical desires rather than what is best for the kids. Kids need to be protected till they are old enough to decide whether they want to be having sex with some old geezer. Especially kids with bad home lives and parents who are divorced, alcoholics, drug addicts, abusive, etc. Pedophiles target those kinds of kids.

Art

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44954 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 1:50 PM
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<< "The human species has evolved to have sex at 15 or 16." - advocatusdiaboli


And so has chlamydia, AIDS, venereal warts, syphyllis, gonorrhea, Herpes, and god knows how many other venereal diseases.
>>


Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and others developed natural law using reason to develop safe ways for human beings to reproduce and express their sexuality.

The basic idea is pretty simple. The correct uses for human genitalia are easy enough to determine, and those were defined as the legitimate, correct and moral means of using them ---- the goal being reproduction.

Any use of genitalia for other purposes was wrong and perverted.

Sex was reserved for marriage between a man and a woman, in which sex can be practiced pretty reliably despite diseases.

These principles were refined in the light of the needs of society as well. Both individuals and society could thrive by living the concepts of natural law.

Natural law was derived from reason, not religion, although it's hardly surprising that many religions, looking to solve the same problems, came to similar conclusions.



Intolerant atheists often sneer at religion, saying, "WHICH God should I worship, there are so many!" But Natural law brings common values to many religions, answering that objection neatly enough at least for the issues natural law deals with.


Sexual liberation isn't new. It's been tried many times and it has failed many times as it fails to answer the needs of people as individuals and of society. It fails for reasons of disease, inability to raise children, dissolution of families, failure to manage ferility and so on.


Many of those same problems continue to plague the sexual liberation movement of today. Science and medicine keep trying to fix the problems created by the sexual liberation movement, but as Art notes, keeping up with the avalanche of problems is a losing struggle.

The sexual liberation movements works after a fashion, especially for the upper middle class and upper class people who have the greatest ability and wealth to apply to fixing the problems sexual liberation creates.

For the working class and poor, the sexual liberation movement frequently destroys wealth, families, children and adults.

All this so that adults can gratify their sexual lust. What a waste!



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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44955 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 2:46 PM
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The basic idea is pretty simple. The correct uses for human genitalia are easy enough to determine, and those were defined as the legitimate, correct and moral means of using them ---- the goal being reproduction.

This deduction is obviously nonsense, of course.
If the exclusive purpose of the genitals was reproduction, human sex drive and fertility would be structured very differently.
Consider animals - for most species, the female is only fertile for a very brief period each year, and only during that period are males sexually attracted to females. A single act of sex during the period of fertility has a very high chance of conception.
In humans, on the other hand, males are attracted to females all the time, and females are (potentially) always interested in sex as well, regardless of the state of their fertility.
Also, even during the fertile period, the chance of conception from a single sex act is very low.
Young couples wishing to achieve pregnancy have only around a 20% chance per month of becoming pregnant. This is in stark contrast to the "design" encountered among many animals.

In a state of nature, without any contraception, the chance of the average act of intercourse resulting in pregnancy is somewhere in the ballpark of 1%. Human sexuality evidently has additional - social - functions other than simple reproduction.

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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44956 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 3:30 PM
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Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and others developed natural law using reason to develop safe ways for human beings to reproduce and express their sexuality.

The basic idea is pretty simple. The correct uses for human genitalia are easy enough to determine, and those were defined as the legitimate, correct and moral means of using them ---- the goal being reproduction.

Any use of genitalia for other purposes was wrong and perverted.


Yep, the old idea that having sex for pleasure is bad. This is yet another area where conservatives think they need to use the power of government to control people's personal lives. Because they just can't rest easy if somebody, somewhere is having the wrong kind of sex.

I am sooooooooooooooo glad I'm not a Republican.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44958 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 3:56 PM
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"This deduction is obviously nonsense, of course. If the exclusive purpose of the genitals was reproduction, human sex drive and fertility would be structured very differently." - advocatus diaboli


Pair bonding. Sex releases hormones in the brain that "bond" or "glue" a couple together long enough to raise a child and get it up to the toddler stage. That "feeling good" thing makes or causes a couple to hang together long enough to get their genetic offspring to where it can feed itself, fruits, nuts, larvae, leaves, etc.

The problem is now we live so damn long and we live in huge non-familial groups that do not have the best interest of the child at heart. Our ancestors lived in tribes where pretty much everyone was related. The average was about 25 closely connected individuals who were so closely related that for all intents and purposes every adult male was like the child's father and every adult female it's mother.

Now we got pedophiles who are not related to the child who target dysfunctional children and who's sole intent is to use the child as a penis cozy.

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44959 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 4:03 PM
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"Yep, the old idea that having sex for pleasure is bad. This is yet another area where conservatives think they need to use the power of government to control people's personal lives. Because they just can't rest easy if somebody, somewhere is having the wrong kind of sex. I am sooooooooooooooo glad I'm not a Republican." - sykesix


Pleasure is fine as long as one person is not in a position to use and/or coerce the other individual into doing things that may be potentially harmful to them. I have no problem with sex or nakedness - but I do have a problem with one human being hurting or abusing another human being.

Poking some kid in the butt and potentially tearing their anus or immature vagina is extremely dangerous. They may suffer potential bowel dysfunction the rest of their entire lives such as leakage, scarring, inflammation, infection, etc. Kids don't know about such things.

Two adult's who chose to chose to engage in potentially dangerous sexual acts is their own business. I don't care what they chose to do to one another as long as it's agreeable to both mature adult parties.

I don't have kids, but if I did I wouldn't want some nasty dirty perverted geezer coercing my child into playing "games" that might hurt them. Kids are so stupid and immature that they just can't comprehend what effect it may have on them down the road a few years.

Art

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 44960 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 8/26/2012 7:24 PM
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<<Yep, the old idea that having sex for pleasure is bad. This is yet another area where conservatives think they need to use the power of government to control people's personal lives. Because they just can't rest easy if somebody, somewhere is having the wrong kind of sex.
>>


Natural law encourages people to be disciplined about all parts of their lives rather than indulge their brute animal natures and lust.

That's still true today, even for liberals, except that advocates of sexual liberation encourage people to indulge most of their sexual urges and desires.

If it really worked, that might be fine. But it works poorly except for the wealthy and educated. For the poor and stupid the results of applying the sexual liberation ethics are frequently disaster.

But the wealthy7 and educated find the poor and stupid to be expendable if they can gratify their sexual lusts, and that's true especially for the educated middle class as well, despite the fact that broken homes, broken families, disease and sharply diminished wealth due to divorce is often a fact of life.

This society pays an enormous economic and social price for adopting the morality of sexual liberation.


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Author: StockGoddess Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 45156 of 63279
Subject: Re: Legitimate Rape Date: 9/2/2012 1:53 PM
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sp - what is this 'sexual liberation' movement you keep rambling on about. where are they, who speaks for them, where is a quote where they advocate for pedophilia? or is this all just something in your imagination/?? frankly i haven't heard the term "sexual liberation" since the 60's and even then it was more about sex outside of marriage, not pedophiles... Are you, i don't know, delusional or something?

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