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Author: Beridian Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 440735  
Subject: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/29/2012 8:48 AM
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David Frum, CNN Contributor, makes a profound point that I have never really thought about:

"OK, Mr. Mourdock, you say your principles require a raped woman to carry the rapist's child to term. That's a heavy burden to impose on someone. What would you do for her in return? Would you pay her medical expenses? Compensate her for time lost to work? Would you pay for the child's upbringing? College education?

"If a woman has her credit card stolen, her maximum liability under federal law is $50. Yet on your theory, if she is raped, she must endure not only the trauma of assault, but also accept economic costs of potentially many thousands of dollars. Must that burden also fall on her alone? When we used to draft men into the Army, we gave them veterans' benefits afterward. If the state now intends to conscript women into involuntary childbearing, surely those women deserve at least an equally generous deal?"


http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/29/opinion/frum-abortion-reality/...


I can just hear the republican pigs shrieking and squealing all the way back to their sty at the thought of such a concept.
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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 411696 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/29/2012 11:50 AM
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I've read Frum's stuff before. I know some here don't like him, but I've found his columns in the past to be (mostly) reasonable. He asks the hard questions, and usually asks them of the right-wing (of which, one must remember, he is a member himself).

I'm almost expecting a column from him sometime similar to my post of a year or two ago in which he realizes that the spectrum has moved and he is now a moderate liberal, even though his views didn't move much.

I thought this one was very well done. I think he raises a very good point, even if I am in favor of completely unrestricted abortions (it's the woman's choice, NOT mine or some legislator's).

Abortion is a product of poverty and maternal distress.

So maybe at the next candidates' debate, a journalist will deflect the discussion away from "what if" and instead ask this:
"Rather than tell us what you'd like to ban, tell us please what you think government should do to support more happy and healthy childbearing, to reduce unwanted pregnancies and to alleviate the economic anxieties of mothers-to-be?"

Those are the questions that make the difference. It's amazing how little we talk about them.


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Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 411697 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/29/2012 11:53 AM
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Not new, I have been asking the exact same question since I formed my opinions on the matter in late highschool. If you are going to force this child to be born, who is going to pay for it?

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Author: sandyleelee Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 411706 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/29/2012 12:49 PM
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David Frum, CNN Contributor, makes a profound point that I have never really thought about:

"OK, Mr. Mourdock, you say your principles require a raped woman to carry the rapist's child to term. That's a heavy burden to impose on someone. What would you do for her in return? Would you pay her medical expenses? Compensate her for time lost to work? Would you pay for the child's upbringing? College education?

"If a woman has her credit card stolen, her maximum liability under federal law is $50. Yet on your theory, if she is raped, she must endure not only the trauma of assault, but also accept economic costs of potentially many thousands of dollars. Must that burden also fall on her alone? When we used to draft men into the Army, we gave them veterans' benefits afterward. If the state now intends to conscript women into involuntary childbearing, surely those women deserve at least an equally generous deal?"

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/29/opinion/frum-abortion-reality/......


I can just hear the republican pigs shrieking and squealing all the way back to their sty at the thought of such a concept.


No. This is her responsibility. If she'd been wearing her chastity belt, none of this would have happened.

A burka might have helped, too.

SLL

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 411708 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/29/2012 1:09 PM
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A burka might have helped, too.

Well, if you hack off her clitoris then she won't enjoy sex and so not be so permiscuous! After all, it's her duty to satisfy her (future) husband and bear children, not to enjoy it.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 411735 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/29/2012 5:51 PM
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Fifty four million fetuses have been aborted since Roe v Wade became law.

FIFTY...FOUR...MILLION.

The point is that very few pregnancies occur as the result of rape, and many of those pregnancies go to term.

The politician didn't say the assaulted woman should be FORCED to bear such a child. He said that EVEN a child conceived through rape deserves to live.

Which is true. Here are some stories of rape-conceived children.

Concord, NH -- Whenever attorney Rebecca Kiessling hears people condemn abortion except in the case of rape or incest, she feels a deep personal pain. She was conceived during a rape. Her birth mother attempted to get an abortion, but they were illegal at the time and she ultimately decided against it. Her frightened mother gave up her baby for adoption instead. Kiessling was adopted by a Jewish couple in Michigan who raised her in their faith and encouraged her to become a lawyer. Until her late teens, she had no idea of the circumstances of her birth or the identity of her birth mother. Last week, Kiessling spoke to about 350 people in Concord's Sacred Heart Church after most had just completed the annual March for Life from the New Hampshire State House to the church.

"The biggest message I have is all life has value," Kiessling said.

Kiessling, 32, of Rochester Hills, Mich., is a semi-retired Christian lawyer, having closed her law office to take care of her family and speak around the country. She still does some pro-bono legal work for women and pro-life groups. She and her husband, Bob, adopted their son Caleb, who often travels with her. His birth mother was 16 and conceived him at a rave party.

****

I have a half-sister who was the product of my mother being raped in a hospital in 1965. I have no doubt in my mind that if abortion would have been legal then, she would have been nothing but a statistic. Instead, she was adopted by a Christian couple, who raised her in a stable, happy family. Today, she has been happily married for many years, and has three beautiful children (none of whom would be alive if their mother had been aborted, of course). Politicians who make a rape and incest exception are trying to appear 'moderate', but all this does is undermine their supposed pro-life position. It is intellectually silly to say that life begins at conception, and then in the next breath say that it is ok to kill some simply because of the sin of their fathers. My experience leads me to believe that politicians who do this bear watching, as they are likely to compromise on a whole range of issues, if they will compromise a life and death issue such as this.

****

I am the grandmother of a child conceived in rape. He, his mother and sister live with us. I wouldn't give up this child for anything in heaven or earth. He is a delight. He is full of laughter and joy. He is overflowing with love and sweetness. At age 3 and 1/2 he has wrapped the entire family around his little finger. He is the rose in the briar patch. Yes, his conception was not what we wanted, but he is such a gift that the entire world would be less without him. We are TRULY grateful to God for the gift that he is.

****

I have a friend who was raped when she was 17 (stranger rape). She not only had the baby, but KEPT him! He is now 9 years old, and a beautiful, happy, healthy child. I asked my friend once if she was sorry she had him. She said no. I asked her if, when she looked at her son, she saw her rapist in him. She said never. She said that, during her pregnancy, she was afraid of how she would feel about her baby, but, once she held him, she never felt that again. She said that her son is the light of her life and she doesn't know what she would do without him! If a 17 year old girl can do this, then IMHO ANY woman can! Abortion is wrong, NO MATTER WHAT! NO EXCEPTIONS!

****

I recommend that anyone who is on the brink of deciding where they stand on the issue of abortion watch the movie Bella.

“O Lord, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O Lord. ... For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” Psalms 139:1-4, 13-16

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Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 411741 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/29/2012 7:01 PM
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Now CCinOC...let's hear the stories of all the kids who grew up to be in gangs after being abandoned and all the kids that live in poverty because mothers couldn't pay bills for a kid or how about all the mothers that ended it all because of the shame of a pregnancy from a rape.

Do you want to balance out your stories or just live in your little happy world??

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 411743 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/29/2012 7:21 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvhum4yLjEs

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Author: JavaRunner Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 411746 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/29/2012 7:25 PM
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If a woman who has been raped wants to bring that child into the world, fine. That is her CHOICE. The government should not be forcing a woman to bring a child into the world.

I have had this exact same discussion on CF, so if I am repeating myself I apologize. I am not a woman, but I have been raped and knife point. I live with that everyday. I can't imagine why a woman would want a lifetime living reminder of her rape. If she does, and can handle it, that is her CHOICE. No one is forcing a woman to have an abortion.

The examples you cite are great for those women. Why should all women have to pay for the rape over and over again for life?

Charlie

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 411747 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/29/2012 7:41 PM
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The point is that very few pregnancies occur as the result of rape, and many of those pregnancies go to term.

For me that's not the central point, but we can go with it for the moment. I don't know that your latter statement is true, but the former certainly is. Most abortions are for reasons other than rape, and with some modern medications many of those aren't even abortions.

Charlie covered the rest of it. So I won't be redundant in this post.

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Author: JamesBrown Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 411762 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/30/2012 9:43 AM
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CCinCoy quotes: "O Lord. ... For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb."

And for almost half of us, decided that we should never see the light of day.

"The incidence of spontaneous abortion is estimated to be 50% of all pregnancies, based on the assumption that many pregnancies abort spontaneously with no clinical recognition."[1]

"It is estimated that up to half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among those women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15–20%."[2]



Apparently God is responsible for aborting almost half of all human beings before they are even born. It would seem that if God wants us to ensure all pregnancies come to term, he should lead by example.



[1]http://www.emcom.ca/health/abortion.shtml
[2]http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 411789 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/30/2012 3:48 PM
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CCinCoy quotes: "O Lord. ... For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb."

Prooof positive that if there were a god, it's not infallible.

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Author: valueqwest Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 411790 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/30/2012 4:11 PM
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Apparently God is responsible for aborting almost half of all human beings before they are even born. It would seem that if God wants us to ensure all pregnancies come to term, he should lead by example.

Does the clay question the potter?

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 411808 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 10/31/2012 12:39 AM
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Only when the clay is sentient.

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412127 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/2/2012 4:22 PM
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Fifty four million fetuses have been aborted since Roe v Wade became law.

FIFTY...FOUR...MILLION.



That's an interesting number CC. I have no idea if it's accurate or not, but that's not really the point.

Here's another interesting number for you:

Every year 15 million children die of hunger

Let's see... Roe v Wade was 1973. That would be 39 years ago.

39 * 15 = 585


That would mean, from a back of the envelope calculation, that approximately 585 million children have died from starvation since RvW.

FIVE... HUNDRED... EIGHTY... FIVE... MILLION.

Just to help you to see the significance, that's ten times as many children dying from starvation as fetuses being aborted in the same period of time.

Imagine how much larger that number would be without abortion.



Frydaze1

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412128 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/2/2012 4:27 PM
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Let's see... Roe v Wade was 1973. That would be 39 years ago.

39 * 15 = 585



another interesting number might be --the number of abortions in the forty years prior to Roe v Wade

or the number of botched abortions that resulted in dead women and/or severely disabled children

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412129 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/2/2012 4:48 PM
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Fifty four million fetuses have been aborted since Roe v Wade became law.
---
Every year 15 million children die of hunger


The number of abortions is for the US (I assume). The second number is for the world.
Not really comparable.

DB2

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Author: karenlj Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412131 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/2/2012 4:56 PM
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The number of abortions is for the US (I assume). The second number is for the world.
Not really comparable.

DB2


Why should the numbers be comparable?

Karen

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412132 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/2/2012 4:58 PM
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The number of abortions is for the US (I assume). The second number is for the world.
Not really comparable.



The second is a worldwide statistic, yes. I don't know if the first statistic is USA or world or totally MUS. Nor does it matter, because you're missing the point.

When a child is born whose parents can't afford to support it, there is a significant risk that the child will die of starvation. This is the fate of millions and millions and millions of children ever year. Without abortion this number would be even higher. With greater access to abortion this number would be significantly lower.

I would much prefer to see a lessening of unwanted conception. Failing that, a lessening of unwanted births would be a step in the right direction.

Unless you're implying that children starving in other countries aren't as important as children starving in ours and we shouldn't count them?


Frydaze1

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Author: JamesBrown Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412136 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/2/2012 5:21 PM
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Frydaze: FIVE... HUNDRED... EIGHTY... FIVE... MILLION.

Here's another number to look at in All-Caps:

Since 1973, the year of Roe v. Wade, over one-hundred-twenty-five million children were born in the United States.[1]

And estimates indicate that nearly half of all pregnancies spontaneously terminate. But that's a slippery number because so many pregnancies start and end before anyone's aware the woman was even pregnant. So let's be Conservative (heh) and say that one-third of all pregnancies spontaneously abort.

That means, in the years since Roe v. Wade, in the United States, God has prematurely ended the lives of sixty-one million souls.

SIXTY . . . ONE . . . MILLION . . . SOULS!!!!

Compared to God, abortion doctors are pikers.



[1]http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005067.html

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412139 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/2/2012 5:34 PM
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The number of abortions is for the US (I assume). The second number is for the world. Not really comparable.
---
Why should the numbers be comparable?


You would want to compare the number of abortions in the US to the number of children in the US who die of starvation for an apples-to-apples comparison.

DB2

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Author: karenlj Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412140 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/2/2012 5:43 PM
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You would want to compare the number of abortions in the US to the number of children in the US who die of starvation for an apples-to-apples comparison.

DB2


No, you wouldn't. They are 2 completely different things.

Karen

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412141 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/2/2012 5:45 PM
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You would want to compare the number of abortions in the US to the number of children in the US who die of starvation for an apples-to-apples comparison.


There's your problem. It's not about comparison. It's about causation.

Let's try it this way:

x number of children in the USA are vaccinated each year.
y number of children in the world die each year from diseases that would have been prevented by vaccination.

Would you still object that the second number has to be only USA for an apples-to-apples comparison? Or would it be more clear to you that the second number is higher in places where the first is lower?


Frydaze1

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412143 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/2/2012 5:55 PM
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You would want to compare the number of abortions in the US to the number of children in the US who die of starvation for an apples-to-apples comparison.
---
There's your problem. It's not about comparison. It's about causation.


I thought you were saying that more children had died of hunger than had been aborted. To make that comparison one would need to look at the same population, e.g., the United States since 1973.

DB2

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Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/3/2012 12:39 PM
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Fifty four million fetuses have been aborted since Roe v Wade became law.
---------------


That's an interesting number CC. I have no idea if it's accurate or not, but that's not really the point.





It's also a lie. The vast majority of abortions are performed on embryos, not fetuses.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412168 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/3/2012 12:44 PM
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frydaze to bob:Unless you're implying that children starving in other countries aren't as important as children starving in ours and we shouldn't count them?

See that's the thing that makes bob a borderline troll... he drops cowpies all over the place, yet lacks the cojones to state a position to accompany his cowpie.

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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412173 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/3/2012 1:57 PM
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frydaze to bob:Unless you're implying that children starving in other countries aren't as important as children starving in ours and we shouldn't count them?
---
See that's the thing that makes bob a borderline troll... he drops cowpies all over the place, yet lacks the cojones to state a position to accompany his cowpie.


sano, there you go again. My comment was about the mathematics of comparing the number of abortions in the US to the number of starvation deaths in the entire world. My 'position' would be you need a common denomination.

As for abortion, I've been pro-abortion since I was in high school (many decades ago).

DB2

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412176 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/3/2012 2:18 PM
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My 'position' would be you need a common denomination.

Where the matter at hand is principle, common denominators are irrlevant.

As for abortion, I've been pro-abortion since I was in high school (many decades ago).

...and you wear that pin to Romney/Ryan rallies?

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Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/3/2012 2:24 PM
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i>...and you wear that pin to Romney/Ryan rallies?

Sure, if I went. I've been to zero political rallies in my life. Have you ever been to any?

DB2

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 412178 of 440735
Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/3/2012 2:38 PM
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Sure, if I went.

Be careful. Depending on the rally they might actually kill you. Some of the local Treason Party (which is just a sub-set of the GOP) rallies here have featured participants with all manner of firearms, and I guarantee you most were "good pro-life Christians", so of course they would execute you for being pro-choice. On the spot.

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Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/3/2012 2:54 PM
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Sure, if I went.
---
Be careful. Depending on the rally they might actually kill you. Some of the local Treason Party (which is just a sub-set of the GOP) rallies here have featured participants with all manner of firearms, and I guarantee you most were "good pro-life Christians", so of course they would execute you for being pro-choice. On the spot.


I haven't read of any political rally shootings since I lived in the Philippines.

DB2

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Subject: Re: Lets get real about abortions Date: 11/3/2012 3:08 PM
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I haven't read of any political rally shootings since I lived in the Philippines.

Grabe.

Here, when there is a large crowd with guns, the sensible people all stay away. Hence no shootings. It was seriously ugly two years ago at mid-terms. Folks showing up with pistols, AR15s, shotguns...it was positively demented. Here in AZ they were within their rights to carry them, but the mentality of "I'm gonna bring my gun to a political event not sponsored by the NRA" was literally nuts.

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I've been to zero political rallies in my life.

Actually, I take that back. I helped cover the '72 primary season as a radio reporter and went to a number of rallies for McGovern, Humphrey and Wallace.

Long time ago....

DB2

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