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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 59776  
Subject: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/19/2008 3:30 PM
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http://www.corridorofshame.com/

Watch the QuikTime intro to the movie.....sad....

"“CORRIDOR OF SHAME: the neglect of South Carolina's rural schools" is a 58 minute documentary that tells the story of the challenges faced in funding an adequate education in South Carolina's rural school districts.

The documentary, supported by many of South Carolina's leading foundations and community leaders, tracks the evidence presented on behalf of eight school districts in Abbeville County School District v. The State of South Carolina."

Upstate SC, with its effort to actually recruit business (started 30 years ago) is doing quite well.

"Downstate" that didn't like 'big business' is fading away......


t.
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Author: JEDIKNIGHT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10810 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/20/2008 2:32 PM
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We all fail.

They grow up and can't understand what "variable rate" means and then either they lose their house or credit, OR taxpayers and investors bend over to subsidize the carelessness and mistakes.

After all, if they are taught in school not to understand the difference between success and failure, and they are taught nothing is their fault, they are prime candidates for wanting a nanny government.

I'm almost in the belief that the system is doing this on purpose.


Jedi

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Author: JEDIKNIGHT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10811 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/20/2008 2:36 PM
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Sorry. Didn't realize this was RE Lib....I was just reading Tele's posts and am used to seeing Tele on the other RE board.

I wont post again, I don't mean to start something on a Lib board.

Jedi

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10812 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/20/2008 3:40 PM
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Jedi: "After all, if they are taught in school not to understand the difference between success and failure, and they are taught nothing is their fault, they are prime candidates for wanting a nanny government.

I'm almost in the belief that the system is doing this on purpose."

You hit the nail on the head.

The libs are all for 'it's not your fault!'.....doesn't matter if you took no peronal initiative....if they didn't 'teach it to you', then obviously you also had no ability to learn it on your own. Your parents had no obligation to insure you could add 2 plus 2.

no one is responsible in a lib world, and even dumb clucks like the candidates, who are mere puppets controlled by their 'contributors' and whose opinions are based upon 'the latest polls' can seem like intelligent beings.

I guess South Carolina has reached Fahrenheit 460.....all intelligence must be gotten from the boob tube because no one can read and books are irrelevant, and even then they can't understand anything other than 'if they vote for someone, they might get 'taken care of' by the nanny gov't.


t.

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Author: PolymerMom Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10813 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/20/2008 9:38 PM
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Could you guys confine yourselves to places like Political Asylum? You are talking to yourselves and no else pays attention,

Both of you are back on my Ignored list..

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10814 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/20/2008 11:12 PM
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PolymerMom says

Could you guys confine yourselves to places like Political Asylum? You are talking to yourselves and no else pays attention,

Both of you are back on my Ignored list..

They've both been on mine for a long time. Funny how the flies are are attracted to a board clearly labeled "Liberal."

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10815 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/20/2008 11:46 PM
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PolymerMom says Could you guys confine yourselves to places like Political Asylum? You are talking to yourselves and no else pays attention,

Both of you are back on my Ignored list..

crassfool says: They've both been on mine for a long time. Funny how the flies are are attracted to a board clearly labeled "Liberal."

In Jedi's defense, he did say, "Sorry. Didn't realize this was RE Lib....I was just reading Tele's posts and am used to seeing Tele on the other RE board.

I won't post again, I don't mean to start something on a Lib board.

Jedi"

Never thought I would be defending Jediknight!

cliff

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10816 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 11:05 AM
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Amazing....

Let's see..the post was there for all to read..

And NOT ONE PERSON commented on the post.....

Let's see..is the liberal mantra "Shoot the messenger?"

Or are they really happy with the state of education in South Carolina and accept it as 'the norm'?

Not a comment on the article. Only comments on the 'messenger'.

Tells you a lot about 'liberals'.

Wonder how many in South Carolina in the 'corridor of shame' retire early? or even live to retirement age?

t.

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10817 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 2:38 PM
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Let's see..is the liberal mantra "Shoot the messenger?"

If the messenger is a clueless hack, then yes.

Or are they really happy with the state of education in South Carolina and accept it as 'the norm'?

Like I said.

The documentary is not about "the state of education in South Carolina." It is about the state of rural education in South Carolina, particularly thanks to plant closings and poor economic conditions in some parts of the state. Somehow you and Jedi have managed to turn that into something about "you can't fail, and therefore all liberals are idiots."

Here's the news flash:

Liberals believe in equal education, including for "poor" communities. That means that the cherished system of "rich neighborhoods pay for their own schools and the rest be damned" is wrong. Conservatives, of course, will yap about "nanny government" and other nonsense, completely missing the point that the nation is best served when everyone gets an education, not when just the scions of the wealthy do.

But then I might as well talk to a donut as try to explain it to you. Not only is the philosophy above your pay grade, but it's clear that you don't even know what you're posting about, since the documentary has nothing to do with the claptrap that you and Jedi are so exorcised about.

Wonder how many in South Carolina in the 'corridor of shame' retire early? or even live to retirement age?

Not many. I wonder how many of them look at a documentary about rural education's funding problems and mysteriously turn it into something that the big bad liberals had something to do with? I wonder how many of them think that educational assets should be distributed equally, rather than as it is done now, with the conservative view that it should be done without government interference? I wonder how many of them are as delusional as those right wingnuts who manage to do so on this board?

And NOT ONE PERSON commented on the post.....
Not a comment on the article.


You are likely on ignore by most people on this board. For those few of us who have not p-boxed you, the thread title was so delusional ("no one fails") since that fact is referenced nowhere in the post, in the link, or in the quicktime movie you so enthusiastically encouraged us to see. Nowhere.

It's beyond "not an issue." It's a complete hallucination from right field, as surely as if you read "David Copperfield" and commented on the theory of nuclear physics contained therein. No wonder no one here takes you seriously.
 


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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10818 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 4:46 PM
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Tells you a lot about 'liberals'.
t.
-----

No, it doesn't. It doesn't say anything about 'liberals' at all. You come here with stories like that, torture out some pretzel-logic so you can blame it on 'liberals', and get offended when you get called on it.

Then you use any reactions to reinforce your preconceived notions.


so obvious, so transparent...







ten

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Author: AcmeFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10819 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 5:33 PM
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Tells you a lot about 'liberals'.

And you tell us all about stereotyping. A *couple* of people said things about you, but you choose to lump ALL liberals together. Truly pathetic.

Acme

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10820 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 7:39 PM
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<<Liberals believe in equal education, including for "poor" communities. That means that the cherished system of "rich neighborhoods pay for their own schools and the rest be damned" is wrong. Conservatives, of course, will yap about "nanny government" and other nonsense, completely missing the point that the nation is best served when everyone gets an education, not when just the scions of the wealthy do.
>>


Oh, my --- that's a stretcher.


Liberals like to TALK about equal education, but they are almost always as interested as anyone else in giving Junior every advantage.

And what upsets Liberals about Bush's "No Child Left Behind" law is that the Liberal pieties about being for equal education were finally challeneged. And it is Liberals (among others) whining the loudest when Junior's special classes get cut in favor of trying to improve the scores of the poor children Liberals pretend to care about, but really do not.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10821 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 7:47 PM
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it is Liberals (among others) whining the loudest when Junior's special classes get cut in favor of trying to improve the scores of the poor children Liberals pretend to care about



Having 10% of the school year consisting of standardized tests is hardly an improvement. Especially when the administrators routinely instruct the teachers to teach to the test, thereby worsening education.

But that's typical conservatism for you: spend lots of time and money on the appearance of doing something, instead of actually doing something. Just like the 'war on drugs', the flag burning amendment, the invasion of Iraq, the no-fly list, the warrantless wiretaps, and the Department of Homeland Security.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10822 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 8:22 PM
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"
Liberals like to TALK about equal education, but they are almost always as interested as anyone else in giving Junior every advantage."

Bill Clinton and Hillary are from Arkansas....Bill was the governor there....

ARK has ranked 47th or 48th from the top - essentially at the bottom, for education...including all the time he and the first cover up artist were in control of ARK......

When it actually comes to giving money to students, it never happens in the liberal world...it all goes to pay raises for the teachers.....and no one is 'accountable' to anyone since the word of the day is "PC"...no one can fail otherwise their self esteem drops.

And, folks, wake up...more than half the area of SC fits into the 'corridor of shame'...and it is right along I95 where all those expensive SUVS zip along the highways doing 70 mph in a big hurry to get through 'that area of the state'.......

Only the top 20% geographically of the state is in the 'north tier' .....and the capital...which is far away from I95 and the corridor of shame.

You go through there, and you think you are going back to 1910...diplapidated shacks.....falling down..no one maintains anything...no one is 'responsible'....no pride in anything.....really sad looking area......

Apparently none of you has ever been there.....

t.

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Author: AcmeFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10823 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 8:30 PM
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telegraph added to your Ignored Fools list

Acme

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10824 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 8:30 PM
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"Having 10% of the school year consisting of standardized tests is hardly an improvement. Especially when the administrators routinely instruct the teachers to teach to the test, thereby worsening education. "

Funny..in Texas, it is called the TAKS...something like Texas Assessment of Knowledge Skills....

I sort of expect students to learn to do basic math problems..then more complex ones. If they have to learn basic math, division, multiplication, fractions, algebra, geometry....oh! my gosh..so hard for a liberal student to learn basic math...

Same for basic science...if they don't know that liquids freeze, evaporate, Newtons law's, gravity, astronomy, the solar system, molecular structure......oh, my gosh, ...so much stuff their brains will explode.....!....dang....

Same for reading comprehension...oh, Junior really doesn't need to know how to read and write...he can listen/watch TV, or really doesn't even need that..he can listen to the iPod all day with screaming lyrics about 'shoot that bitch' (rap) or similar.....

Sorry, I want the students I fork over $3500 a year in school taxes to know math, science, history, geography, reading/writing, reading, and a lot more.

I don't need them spending 1000 hours on 'global warming', 3 months on studies of melting glaciers (without understanding ice ages and Milankovich cycles first), the disappearance of polar bears, without understanding evolution and Natural Selection..... ie, only the lib agenda with no supporting science......

Sorry....I really expect that teachers will teach what 'testers' think the students should master....and only after they have done that, go on to other things.

The good students will breeze by the basic test requirements quickly. If some others take most of the year to master the basic skills, so be it.....they need those basic skills.....

There is no reason to teach other stuff if the kids haven't mastered the basics, but libs seem to think that teaching 'PC think" is more important than basic skill sets...

Sorry...beg to disagree....


t.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10825 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 8:32 PM
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AcmeFool added to your Ignored Fools list

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10826 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 9:28 PM
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"AcmeFool added to your Ignored Fools list "

The lib mantra 'Hear no evil, see no evil....kill the messenger....'.....

If it isn't 'PC think' then shoot the messenger, come up with the McCain Feingold act, and similar....

AcmeFool demonstrated why lib education is failing miserably.

thanks

t.

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Author: alan81 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10827 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 9:45 PM
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what upsets Liberals about Bush's "No Child Left Behind" law is that the Liberal pieties about being for equal education were finally challeneged.
I think this is a big enough problem, trying to stereotype answers based on political beliefs is a big waste of time.
Perosnally, I like the testing done for NCLB. I don't think you can fix or improve anything unless you can measure it. Maybe the measurement isn't perfect, but it is way better than nothing.

The problem with NCLB is the way "program improvement" schools are handled. When a school becomes program improvement, the students at that school are free to go to ANY school they want. The problem of course is the wealthy are much more likely to have the resources to transport their students across town than the poor. Another thing built into the system is ever increasing goals. This makes some sense, but the inevitable result of the current goals is that EVERY school in the country will become a "Program improvement" school. It's not gonna be pretty.
--Alan
Who actually believes it may be best to occasionally leave someone behind:-)

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10828 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 9:59 PM
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<<Who actually believes it may be best to occasionally leave someone behind:-)
>>



Of course you are correct. The ability and interest to absorb an education is certainly not distributed on an eqalitarian basis.

A talented few absorb a highly dispropotionate amount of education. A significant number absorb little or nothing.

That's why expecting eqalitarian outcomes is futile. Still, it's been amusing to see Republicans take this goal seriously, and impose it on a public education system that does such a poor job in many cases, and to see Libs doing major backpedling once Juniors provileged position in public schools was threatened.


My brother and sister in law carefully negotiated the public school system where they live on behalf of their two Sprigs of the middle class to be. They are vexed to see those programs for talented students threatened in order to pour greater resouces into getting ne're do wells to pass state minimum test requirements.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10829 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 11:38 PM
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Liberals like to TALK about equal education, but they are almost always as interested as anyone else in giving Junior every advantage.

folks, wake up...more than half the area of SC fits into the 'corridor of shame'...and it is right along I95 where all those expensive SUVS zip along the highways doing 70 mph in a big hurry to get through 'that area of the state'.......




You could afford to take English 101 again and learn when and when not to use an ellipsis and/or an aposiopesis.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10830 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/21/2008 11:41 PM
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Same for basic science...if they don't know that liquids freeze, evaporate, Newtons law's, gravity, astronomy, the solar system, molecular structure......oh, my gosh, ...so much stuff their brains will explode.....!....dang....



Again with the unnecessary ellipsis. And please, figure out where to put the apostrophe in Newton's Laws.


Then and only then can you speak about education.


Until then, go back to your conservative anti-education hellhole.

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10831 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 12:43 AM
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feedmeNOWhuman says

But that's typical conservatism for you: spend lots of time and money on the appearance of doing something, instead of actually doing something. Just like the 'war on drugs', the flag burning amendment, the invasion of Iraq, the no-fly list, the warrantless wiretaps, and the Department of Homeland Security.

To be fair, the "war on drugs" is pretty much a bipartisan bit of criminal idiocy. Your other examples are valid, though.

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10832 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 1:55 AM
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Having 10% of the school year consisting of standardized tests is hardly an improvement.

It may or may not be, it all depends on what was being done otherwise during that 10% of the time.

Especially when the administrators routinely instruct the teachers to teach to the test, thereby worsening education.

How do you measure "worsening education"? What mechanism do you propose to make that measurement?

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10833 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 2:18 AM
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<<Then and only then can you speak about education.


Until then, go back to your conservative anti-education hellhole.
>>



Keep on with your efforts to educate the uneducable, and those not interested in education. We'll see more of the same from that, I expect.


Of course, it's not education that my Liberals friends are really interested in, but the opportunity to indoctrinate children with politically correct values.


Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10834 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 2:23 AM
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<<Having 10% of the school year consisting of standardized tests is hardly an improvement. Especially when the administrators routinely instruct the teachers to teach to the test, thereby worsening education.
>>


Surely it's not necessary to teach the test. Why isn't ordinary public education curriculum all that's needed to insure that all children pass basic standards of educational competency?


That's if we are all equal. ARE we all equal, or is that tenet of public education a lie at it's core?



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10835 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 9:23 AM
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SP: Keep on with your efforts to educate the uneducable, and those not interested in education.
-----

You do realize who he was replying to, and attempting to educate, right?

I guess you're saying that tele is 'uneducable, and not interested in education'.







ten

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10836 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 10:08 AM
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<<SP: Keep on with your efforts to educate the uneducable, and those not interested in education.
-----

You do realize who he was replying to, and attempting to educate, right?

I guess you're saying that tele is 'uneducable, and not interested in education'.

>>



Insulting comments aren't a reasonable argument. Except on Liberal dominated boards, apparently.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10837 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 10:58 AM
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THere is a small, very small group of 'uneducatable' students.

There are many who have slacked off, and being given that 'freedom' by their parents and educators, because 'it hurts them to flunk them' and 'it hurts them to tell them they are simply lazy'.

Sorry, that doesn't cut it in my book. The libs seem all bent on 'forgiving' anyone for being lazy, cutting classes and everything thing else that impedes education. They go to great lengths to find 'inequality' everywhere, insisting 'everyone' get the same educational opportunites even if they flunked the last 4 years of high school 5 times.

Some folks need vocational training. They aren't going to doctors and lawyers. That has almost disappeared in the name of "PC". The libs seem to insist that 'everyone' should have a 'high school educaiton' even if it means they can't read or write by the time they 'graduate'.

40 yeasr ago, most high schools had vocational programs - building trades, auto mechanics. That all had to get cut out because of more and more liberal MANDATES that would not let part of the school population 'not have access' to material they would never master, would waste 4 years of high school for them and many classmates, etc.

Now, you can't find a vocational program at 99% of high schools. No shop. No auto mechanics or computers or electronics. Zip. Instead, everyone has to take 'college prep' courses whehher thay have any aptitude or not for higher education along those lines.

It's still amazing that there has not been ONE comment about South Carolina and the 'Corridor of Shame' other than to try to say it is only a 'teeny weeny' portion of South Carolina (wrong). The reason it exists is that there is no industry there, and none wants to locate there due to the politics. You drive through there, and every town is a 'speed trap' trying to get revenues from anyone driving a car newer than 20 years old.

Even 35 years ago, my company in VA was trying to get 300 engineers to relocate to a new facility in Florence, SC. They gave us time and money to go down and 'look at' the area. 95% of the engineers said "no way". On the way down was a speed trap town. Half of the folks that South Caroline was trying to 'attract' got tickets (not me). You came around a corner going 50mph, and there was a sign behind a tree for 25mph, and 100 feet down the road was the cop. That soured half the folks right off the bat. There were a dozen other speed trap towns on the way down there. The area was a swamp. My employer did spend tens of millions building the plant, wound up hiring a few hundred local employees who didn't have good work ethics - and two years later closed the plant, and five years later it still sat abandoned. The engineers were never transferred down there. Over half had left in the six months before the supposed transfer to other jobs, costing the company millions in delays as projects could not be completed on time. So much for South Carolina and it is no different today.

On the other hand, the 'northern tier' has had success after success in attracting new business, has centers of higher education known around the country, and does well. That's only a small section of the entire state.

t.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10838 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 10:58 AM
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Why isn't ordinary public education curriculum all that's needed to insure that all children pass basic standards of educational competency?


Because funding is dependent on test scores, and test scores are easier to raise by teaching to the test rather than teaching them how to think?

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Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10839 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 11:11 AM
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{{Because funding is dependent on test scores, and test scores are easier to raise by teaching to the test rather than teaching them how to think?}}


What good is it to teach a student to "think" if such teaching results in more students unable to do basic math or basic reading?



c

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10840 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 11:12 AM
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The libs seem all bent on 'forgiving' anyone for being lazy, cutting classes and everything thing else that impedes education.



Well, regarding who's impeding education, it's the evil libs who are the ones trying to teach actual content, like science and evolution, for example, and the conservatives are the ones trying to replace it with religion.


As far as where the problem lies, talk to a teacher sometime, or read the TMF board. They'll tell you the problem is lack of support from parents and administrators. The teacher sends a kid to the principal, and the principal sends them back to class for fear of being sued for punishing the kid. A teacher flunks a kid, and the principal changes the grade for fear of being sued. I live not far from the city of DiplomaGate, in which a teacher flunked a kid, which would have resulted in the kid not graduating. Then the parents filed a lawsuit, and the teacher was more than willing to go to the mat, but the administrators backed down and gave the kid extra credit to graduate. It was an atrocity.

The teachers will also tell you that the richer the parents, the more likely it is that this sort of thing will happen. "NOBODY flunks my little Jeffrey! If he has to take summer school, he'll miss our 8-week trip to Europe! I want that teacher fired right now!"

Happens all the time, especially in rich Republican districts.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10841 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 11:13 AM
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What good is it to teach a student to "think" if such teaching results in more students unable to do basic math or basic reading?


It doesn't.

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Author: BrKatana Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10842 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 11:22 AM
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They'll tell you the problem is lack of support from parents and administrators.

My father, a former teacher, talked about this all the time. Most parents consider public schools as over-paid babysitters. Someplace to send the kids to get them out of the house. Where a parent is going to be more concerned with Johnnie's / Jane's performance if they're writing checks for $5k / $10k a year to a school (which, by the way, has the option of kicking them back to the public system if they don't perform...public schools have no such option).

Any part of education reform should have thought of some way to deal with that reality.

Accountability in education doesn't begin & end with the teachers, but includes parents and students, too.

alex

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10843 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 11:33 AM
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Insulting comments aren't a reasonable argument. Except on Liberal dominated boards, apparently.
Seattle Pioneer

-----

So stop dropping insulting comments. Particularly on "Liberal dominated boards".





ten

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 11:52 AM
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tele: The libs seem all bent on 'forgiving' anyone for being lazy, cutting classes and everything thing else that impedes education. They go to great lengths to find 'inequality' everywhere, insisting 'everyone' get the same educational opportunites even if they flunked the last 4 years of high school 5 times.

Some folks need vocational training. They aren't going to doctors and lawyers. That has almost disappeared in the name of "PC". The libs seem to insist that 'everyone' should have a 'high school educaiton' even if it means they can't read or write by the time they 'graduate'.

-----

You keep throwing bilge like this out here... do you have any data to back this up? Any links to lend credibility to any of your claims?

Because so far all you post are stories to failed systems and then opine with some twisted drivel and Rush/Coulter/Hannity talking points to blame the ubiquitous 'EVIL LIBDEMS' for every failing since the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Those very same 'EVIL LIBDEMS' who seem to be at the core of every conspiracy theory cooked up under your wannabeLibertarian tinfoil hat.


BOO!





ten

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10845 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 11:55 AM
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<<As far as where the problem lies, talk to a teacher sometime, or read the TMF board. They'll tell you the problem is lack of support from parents and administrators. The teacher sends a kid to the principal, and the principal sends them back to class for fear of being sued for punishing the kid. A teacher flunks a kid, and the principal changes the grade for fear of being sued. I live not far from the city of DiplomaGate, in which a teacher flunked a kid, which would have resulted in the kid not graduating. Then the parents filed a lawsuit, and the teacher was more than willing to go to the mat, but the administrators backed down and gave the kid extra credit to graduate. It was an atrocity.

The teachers will also tell you that the richer the parents, the more likely it is that this sort of thing will happen. "NOBODY flunks my little Jeffrey! If he has to take summer school, he'll miss our 8-week trip to Europe! I want that teacher fired right now!"

Happens all the time, especially in rich Republican districts.
>>



I'd be glad to change the laws to insure that schools can make their grades and rules stick. I'm confident you would find Liberals opposing such efforts, as they always do.


Around here, the state required test is the WASL. Since so many "stufents" were flunking the math portion of the test and would fail to get diplommas, the Dem Governor proposed to push back that deadline by several years. The Dem legislature pushed it back further.


With the new legislature now in session, I see that the Dems are proposing to push back the required reading portion of that test as well.


Just like the title of this thread ---- no one fails. Or at least if they do fail, there will be no consequences for that.


I might add that it was a Republican legislature that proposed the testing methods and standards in the first place, and Dems that are watering them down to nothing.



No surpises there.




Seattle Pioneer

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 11:58 AM
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{{Because funding is dependent on test scores, and test scores are easier to raise by teaching to the test rather than teaching them how to think?}}

What good is it to teach a student to "think" if such teaching results in more students unable to do basic math or basic reading?
c

-----

OMG... just OMFG!

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 12:02 PM
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The teachers will also tell you that the richer the parents, the more likely it is that this sort of thing will happen. "NOBODY flunks my little [Georgie]! If he has to take summer school, he'll miss our 8-week trip to Europe! I want that teacher fired right now!"
-----

There, fixed that for you. ;-)



Happens all the time, especially in rich Republican districts.
-----
Like Kennebunkport?






ten

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 12:06 PM
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I live not far from the city of DiplomaGate, in which a teacher flunked a kid, which would have resulted in the kid not graduating. Then the parents filed a lawsuit, and the teacher was more than willing to go to the mat, but the administrators backed down and gave the kid extra credit to graduate. It was an atrocity.
-----

I have a friend who retireed from teaching for this very reason. She's a Montessori teacher and 'teaching the test' negates every benefit Marie Montessori had discovered though the methods she developed.







ten

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10849 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 12:12 PM
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<<Happens all the time, especially in rich Republican districts.
-----
Like Kennebunkport?






ten
>>



Heh, heh! Like TeddyKennedyBunkport, I think!


And Mary Jo Kpechne would have been 68 years old on her next birthday, had she lived.




Seattle Pioneer

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 12:24 PM
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I might add that it was a Republican legislature that proposed the testing methods and standards in the first place, and Dems that are watering them down to nothing. No surpises there.



That's because, as I explained, the testing methods don't work and because Republican curriculum is religious and shouldn't be there in the first place.

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 12:30 PM
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Heh, heh! Like TeddyKennedyBunkport, I think!
And Mary Jo Kpechne would have been 68 years old on her next birthday, had she lived.
Seattle Pioneer

-----

Which has exactly what to do with the topic at hand?

Oh... that's right, NOTHING.


just a gratuitous "insulting comment" lobbed at 'Libdems', but right in line with the GOP mantra of 'Do as I say, not as I do'.






ten

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10852 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 12:36 PM
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tenworlds says

Which has exactly what to do with the topic at hand?

Oh... that's right, NOTHING.


just a gratuitous "insulting comment" lobbed at 'Libdems', but right in line with the GOP mantra of 'Do as I say, not as I do'.

Indeed.

I think it's time once again for me to issue a warning I have repeated over the years:

Every time you make serious use of the term "political correctness" (or any of its derivatives), your IQ falls by five percent.

If you keep doing it, it's just like compound interest in reverse. Do the math, wingnuts, if you're still able to do it.

This thread amply demonstrates the effect.

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 12:36 PM
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<<I might add that it was a Republican legislature that proposed the testing methods and standards in the first place, and Dems that are watering them down to nothing. No surpises there.



That's because, as I explained, the testing methods don't work and because Republican curriculum is religious and shouldn't be there in the first place.

>>


More liberal denial of reality.


And Republican testing, as I mentioned earlier, was mainly about testing math, reading and listening skills. No new or old testament questions at all (you really disclose your narrow mindedness with that accusation).


The math testing is all about the math skills an educated high scjool student should have, which is why so many (40% or more overall) are failing the test.


Your claims that such skills can't be tested is precious.




Seattle Pioneer

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 12:37 PM
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Reposting with the right tags:

tenworlds says

Which has exactly what to do with the topic at hand?

Oh... that's right, NOTHING.


just a gratuitous "insulting comment" lobbed at 'Libdems', but right in line with the GOP mantra of 'Do as I say, not as I do'.

Indeed.

I think it's time once again for me to issue a warning I have repeated over the years: Every time you make serious use of the term "political correctness" (or any of its derivatives), your IQ falls by five percent.

If you keep doing it, it's just like compound interest in reverse. Do the math, wingnuts, if you're still able to do it. This thread amply demonstrates the effect.

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 12:38 PM
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<<Heh, heh! Like TeddyKennedyBunkport, I think!
And Mary Jo Kpechne would have been 68 years old on her next birthday, had she lived.
Seattle Pioneer
-----

Which has exactly what to do with the topic at hand?

Oh... that's right, NOTHING.
>>



If you follow the thread back one link, you'll see that I was responding to the "Kennebunkport" comment that was made.




Seattle Pioneer

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 1:02 PM
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If you follow the thread back one link, you'll see that I was responding to the "Kennebunkport" comment that was made.
Seattle Pioneer

-----

A tenuous connection at best, scurrilous fulmination to distract and detract at worst. A simple bomb-throwing comment that had nothing at all to do with the vast 'EVIL LIBDEM' conspiracy to deny equal opportunity for education to all, which was, in case you hadn't noticed, the subject at hand.

Maybe, being of a particular mindset for so long, you don't realize the 'insulting comment' aspect of your nonsense (though I doubt that).
As the sage once said: 'You have to get out of the outhouse before you can smell the stink.'





ten

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 1:50 PM
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Telegraph: Some folks need vocational training. They aren't going to doctors and lawyers. That has almost disappeared in the name of "PC". The libs seem to insist that 'everyone' should have a 'high school educaiton' even if it means they can't read or write by the time they 'graduate'.

40 yeasr ago, most high schools had vocational programs - building trades, auto mechanics. That all had to get cut out because of more and more liberal MANDATES that would not let part of the school population 'not have access' to material they would never master, would waste 4 years of high school for them and many classmates, etc.

Now, you can't find a vocational program at 99% of high schools. No shop. No auto mechanics or computers or electronics. Zip. Instead, everyone has to take 'college prep' courses whehher thay have any aptitude or not for higher education along those lines.

Yes, some folks don't have the interest or aptitude for colege prep classes. College prep isn't the issue, from what I read. It's basic reading, writing, and 'rithmetic. Children in high school who can't read or do simple arithmetic. These guys won't even make good mechanics if they can't read the instruction manuals on the diagnostic tools they have. The challenge is not to give these kids more tests, it's how to motivate them. (Yes, there are the "dumbells", as we called them when I was in school. I think today they go to special education classes or schools.) Those who want college prep classes still get them. It's the lower 50% that worry me. Mind you, even when I was in school (back in the pleistocene), there were kids who found it smart to be dumb. No one wanted to be "teacher's pet" or to be an egghead square, as went the vernacular of the day.

Are you sure that schools don't offer vocational training any more? I would like to see a credible source for that claim.

I gotta point out that you sometimes speak poorly for your own education, telegraph. You don't seem to know where to use apostrophes, and your spelling has huge lapses some times. (The present post seems well done, maybe a typo or two, but I hope everyone cuts a lot of slack for typos. I never took no typing class in High school,)

I hired a building contractor to install a driveway and some retaining walls. I was impressed with his math skills. He sure knew how to make a right angle, for instance, by using 3-4-5 triangles, or 5-12-13 triangles. He also carried a calculator. Where did he learn those skills?

I had an older uncle who was functionally illiterate. He lead a hard life, even back in the day. Today would be harder.

I have a pet peve. (Surprised?) When I go to the food market, or to a hamburger place, the clerks get very confused when I give them a ten, a five, and 17¢ for a $13.67 bill. They have to use the cash register to figure out the change. If they have already done the total, I have to tell them how much change is right. One insisted on giving me the change without the 17¢.

I agree that vocational training is right for some students, either by choice or by ability in a particular area. In Germany, they have a big test at some point, called the Abitur. That test determines what kind of education you can get. Bad score? You go to tech school. Good score? Physice, or med school. The schools are streamed even before that, and I am not familiar with all the details. But Germany doesn't have a huge, permanent underclass, as we do.

I see no horror in streaming the classes and schools according to ability, if there were some way to avoid permanently trapping students from underperforming areas/schools into a life of underachievement.

Let me just say it: It's a racial divide problem, more than anything. When people talk about under-performing schools, or students, they mostly mean the inner city schools, or the rural schools which are predominately black. NCLB only exacerbates the situation. Any criticism that fails to address this issue is hollow, and doomed to failure, or (worse) to perpetuating the racial division we have. The question becomes, how to attract good teachers to poor districts, and how to motivate students in those diatricts. I don't have the answer, but sneering remarks ablut LIBRULS doesn't help, either.

cliff

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Author: LtUhura Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10858 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 2:03 PM
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Heh, heh! Like TeddyKennedyBunkport, I think!
And Mary Jo Kpechne would have been 68 years old on her next birthday, had she lived.
Seattle Pioneer


And Michael Dutton Douglas would have been 62 on his next birthday. Just saying.

Uhura

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 2:11 PM
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Now, you can't find a vocational program at 99% of high schools. No shop. No auto mechanics or computers or electronics. Zip. Instead, everyone has to take 'college prep' courses whehher thay have any aptitude or not for higher education along those lines.

Doing a quick search shows that my local school district has a dedicated vocational school in conjuction with a neighboring district (if I'm reading this right). A more in depth search would likely show more such programs around than one might suppose.

The rhetoric sounded good...but provide some real data to back up the claim.

Alex

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 2:34 PM
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Let me just say it: It's a racial divide problem, more than anything. When people talk about under-performing schools, or students, they mostly mean the inner city schools, or the rural schools which are predominately black. NCLB only exacerbates the situation. Any criticism that fails to address this issue is hollow, and doomed to failure, or (worse) to perpetuating the racial division we have. The question becomes, how to attract good teachers to poor districts, and how to motivate students in those diatricts. I don't have the answer, but sneering remarks ablut LIBRULS doesn't help, either.

cliff


My friend is a public school teacher and teaches in a middle school (grades 4, 5 and 6) with a mostly black student population. He can hardly wait to retire. He worries for his physical safety and spends much of his time keeping students from either striking him or fighting each other. The parents, if they can be contacted, are of no help and end up blaming "whitey" for their children's school problems.

The black students who do want to get an education are ridiculed for acting "white" by their fellow students. IMHO, no amount of money spent on public education is going to educate students who feel this way and who do not respect their white teachers.

Mike

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 2:40 PM
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I have a pet peve. (Surprised?) When I go to the food market, or to a hamburger place, the clerks get very confused when I give them a ten, a five, and 17¢ for a $13.67 bill. They have to use the cash register to figure out the change. If they have already done the total, I have to tell them how much change is right. One insisted on giving me the change without the 17¢.

cliff


I wonder if the widespread use of pocket calculators has affected young peoples' ability to perform simple math in their head. Back in the dark ages of the 1960s, public school students such as myself had no pocket calculators and we also had to memorize our times tables. My sister was three grades behind me and when she reached 3rd grade, her class no longer had to memorize times tables.

Mike

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Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 2:46 PM
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Now, you can't find a vocational program at 99% of high schools. No shop. No auto mechanics or computers or electronics. Zip. Instead, everyone has to take 'college prep' courses whehher thay have any aptitude or not for higher education along those lines.

Doing a quick search shows that my local school district has a dedicated vocational school in conjuction with a neighboring district (if I'm reading this right). A more in depth search would likely show more such programs around than one might suppose.
The rhetoric sounded good...but provide some real data to back up the claim.
Alex

-----

Good luck with that. I asked him to provide something/anything to back up his earlier claims, and I got... bupkis.

The Vocational HS I graduated from (back in 1966) still offers vocational courses. Albeit not in a 'rural' area, it provides courses that this poster says are not available anywhere, anymore... 99% of the time.

Elizabeth High School's vocational programs are located in Edison and Aboff Houses. Subjects range a wide variety of vocations including nursing, computer networking, automotive repair (with a complete automotive repair shop), electronics, robotics, and a fully functional ShopRite supermarket which is currently supervised by Daniel Andretti, a former English teacher in Edison House.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_High_School_(New_Jersey)


I'm not saying the public school system is perfect, but it's certainly not the cesspool of nanny-state ineptitude some claim it to be.






ten

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10863 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 2:48 PM
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Alex: "The rhetoric sounded good...but provide some real data to back up the claim."

http://www.fape.org/idea/How_it_works/voced_myths_8.html

"A survey of Washington residents revealed similar attitudes (Washington State Workforce Training and Education Board 1997). Almost 9 of 10 respondents agreed that high schools should provide some kind of career preparation to every student before graduation; ..and a whopping 96 percent favored education for every student that provided a strong academic foundation, hands-on learning experience, and an opportunity to practice what he or she has learned in a work-based setting.

76 percent said that all students would benefit from vocational education.
90 percent agreed or strongly agreed that vocational education prepared students for good-paying jobs.
92 percent agreed or strongly agreed that vocational education can lead students to go to college.
Only 4 percent agreed that vocational education led to low-skill jobs.
98 percent said that internships or apprenticeships in different career fields were appropriate for high school juniors and seniors.
90 percent said that real work-based problems or career-related.

projects were a good way to teach subjects like math and English. "
Well, I was wrong....in Plano, TX, where I live"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plano_Senior_High_School

"In the 2005 graduating class, 97% of graduates went onto college or university: 85% went on to four-year universities, while the remaining 12% went to two-year colleges. "

They have sevearal vocational training programs, but with a graduating class of 1112 in 2005, leaves just 3% of that roughly 1100, or 33 students, who didn't go on to college.

"Plano currently offers vocational courses in agriculture, home economics, journalism, fashion design, advertising design, drafting, automotive technology, automotive paint and body, clinical rotation, and criminal justice."

In the last 20-30 years, communities have shifted vocational education to the Community College level. That keeps poor performing students in 4 years of high school for which some have no interest or ability - thus dropping out. They become near unemployable other than for minimum wage jobs often.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocational_education

"In the United States, the approach is varied from state to state. Most of the technical and vocational courses are offered by Community Colleges, though several states have their own institutes of technology which are on an equal accreditational footing with other state universities.

Historically, junior high schools and high schools have offered vocational courses such as home economics, wood and metal shop, typing, business courses, drafting and auto repair, though schools have put more emphasis on academics for all students because of standards based education reform. School to Work is a series of federal and state initiatives to link academics to work, sometimes including spending time during the day on a job site without pay."

Now, the lib orientation of every student has to go through every course in high school, no matter how unsuited, (and guaranteed to pass), means that we institutionalize the kids for another couple years to get through "Community College" at even higher expense for the tax payers.

t.

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Author: LtUhura Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10864 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 2:55 PM
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I wonder if the widespread use of pocket calculators has affected young peoples' ability to perform simple math in their head. Back in the dark ages of the 1960s, public school students such as myself had no pocket calculators and we also had to memorize our times tables. My sister was three grades behind me and when she reached 3rd grade, her class no longer had to memorize times tables.

My nine-year-old has to memorize times tables. She attends public school, has all her life. Oh, yeah, she also has to respect all her teachers, not just the white ones.

Uhura

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10865 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 2:57 PM
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Now, the lib orientation of every student has to go through every course in high school, no matter how unsuited, (and guaranteed to pass), means that we institutionalize the kids for another couple years to get through "Community College" at even higher expense for the tax payers.

t.

Do you suppose this has anything to do with the NCLB tests? Do those tests have any vocational questions?

Nah. Couldn't be. In any case, it must be the libs' fault.

cilff

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Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10866 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 3:02 PM
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{{Do you suppose this has anything to do with the NCLB tests? Do those tests have any vocational questions?}}


I would think that basic reading and math skills would be just as important for vocational training as for college prep.


c

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10867 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 3:05 PM
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Your claims that such skills can't be tested is precious.


You're a liar. I made no such claim.

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10868 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 3:12 PM
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Wow! Speaking of typos! Let me redo that:

Yes, some folks don't have the interest or aptitude for college prep classes. College prep isn't the issue, from what I read. It's basic reading, writing, and 'rithmetic. Children in high school who can't read or do simple arithmetic. These guys won't even make good mechanics if they can't read the instruction manuals on the diagnostic tools they have. The challenge is not to give these kids more tests, it's how to motivate them. (Yes, there are the "dumbells", as we called them when I was in school. I think today they go to special education classes or schools.) Those who want college prep classes still get them. It's the lower 50% that worry me. Mind you, even when I was in school (back in the pleistocene), there were kids who found it smart to be dumb. No one wanted to be "teacher's pet" or to be an egghead square, as went the vernacular of the day.

Are you sure that schools don't offer vocational training any more? I would like to see a credible source for that claim.

I gotta point out that you sometimes speak poorly for your own education, telegraph. You don't seem to know where to use apostrophes, and your spelling has huge lapses some times. (The present post seems well done, maybe a typo or two, but I hope everyone cuts a lot of slack for typos. I never took no typing class in High school,)

I hired a building contractor to install a driveway and some retaining walls. I was impressed with his math skills. He sure knew how to make a right angle, for instance, by using 3-4-5 triangles, or 5-12-13 triangles. He also carried a calculator. Where did he learn those skills?

I had an older uncle who was functionally illiterate. He lead a hard life, even back in the day. Today would be harder.

I have a pet peeve. (Surprised?) When I go to the food market, or to a hamburger place, the clerks get very confused when I give them a ten, a five, and 17¢ for a $13.67 bill. They have to use the cash register to figure out the change. If they have already done the total, I have to tell them how much change is right. One insisted on giving me the change without the 17¢.

I agree that vocational training is right for some students, either by choice or by ability in a particular area. In Germany, they have a big test at some point, called the Abitur. That test determines what kind of education you can get. Bad score? You go to tech school. Good score? Physics, or med school. The schools are streamed even before that, and I am not familiar with all the details. But Germany doesn't have a huge, permanent underclass, as we do.

I see no horror in streaming the classes and schools according to ability, if there were some way to avoid permanently trapping students from underperforming areas/schools into a life of underachievement.

Let me just say it: It's a racial divide problem, more than anything. When people talk about under-performing schools, or students, they mostly mean the inner city schools, or the rural schools which are predominately black. NCLB only exacerbates the situation. Any criticism that fails to address this issue is hollow, and doomed to failure, or (worse) to perpetuating the racial division we have. The question becomes, how to attract good teachers to poor districts, and how to motivate students in those districts. I don't have the answer, but sneering remarks about LIBRULS doesn't help, either.

cliff
... thanks for the slack

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10869 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 3:29 PM
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I have a pet peve. (Surprised?) When I go to the food market, or to a hamburger place, the clerks get very confused when I give them a ten, a five, and 17¢ for a $13.67 bill. They have to use the cash register to figure out the change. If they have already done the total, I have to tell them how much change is right. One insisted on giving me the change without the 17¢.


It's worth noting that there are a lot of con artists out there who rip off cashiers with little scams that resemble someone trying make the change come out as a nice round number. They'll give the cashier the extra 17 cents and then when the cashier is mentally figuring out the change due, they'll throw another bill on the counter and ask the cashier to break that, too, and then another. Pretty soon there are bills everywhere, and while the cashier is distracted, they pull a sleight of hand trick and the hapless cashier is missing 20 or 50 bucks.

I have a math degree--I know (or knew) how to find the area under the curve, but I'm lousy at adding and subtracting in my head, especially if I'm being pressured. If you catch a cashier off guard, it's not hard to mess them up. Most cashiers are taught how to enter the amounts into the register, and are not always up to speed on what to do if the customer changes something after the amounts have been entered. Often, they'll have to call the boss over to change a transaction. The boss gets mad at them for calling him over. Regardless of how easy the math might be, if you change the amount tendered *after* it's been entered, it's not immediately obvious that you're being helpful instead of trying to steal from them.

After college, while working on a second degree, I once worked at a gas station. I did one four-hour shift, and quit immediately after. When someone would pick up the pump, you'd have to "arm" it so they could dispense the gas. You had to have several transactions open at once if there were multiple pumps. The register wouldn't allow me to reverse a transaction, and when customers start lining up and tendering the extra 17 cents, and then changing their minds and adding in a pack of cigarettes and then a candy bar (neither of which had price tags; you had to memorize the price) and totally screwing up the whole transaction, meanwhile another pump needs arming, meanwhile the two other people in line are grumbling that they're in a hurry, meanwhile the boss was in the booth with me throwing a fit about how "If you're short by one dollar, you've cost us all the profit we'd make on 50 gallons of gas" and that was enough for me.

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10870 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 3:43 PM
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Now, the lib orientation of every student has to go through every course in high school, no matter how unsuited, (and guaranteed to pass), means that we institutionalize the kids for another couple years to get through "Community College" at even higher expense for the tax payers.
t.

-----

<sigh> There you go again...

Lessee, the GOP took control of Congress... what? back in the early 80's? (something like that, think Gingrich). In that time there've been three terms of GOP Executives, two of Dem leadership, and now two more terms of the GOP. That's 28 years of GOP control, and you say it's "lib orientation"?!

If it's anything, it's Bush's NCLB BS that has caused the elimination of many vocational programs. With federal funds being tied to academic test scores, the schools are forced to 'teach the tests' to be able to qualify for the monies.

It didn't work in Texas, and it ain't working nationally. Unless, of course, you're willing to be flim-flammed.
http://www.nochildleft.com/2003/sept03miracles.html

Then, putting political cronies in positions they're unqualified for compounds the problem...
http://nochildleft.com/2004/dec04resume.html



"the lib orientation"?... please, spare me.





ten

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Author: BrKatana Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10871 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 3:56 PM
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you can't find a vocational program at 99% of high schools. No shop. No auto mechanics or computers or electronics.

I'm still not seeing the supporting data that 99% of high schools have no vocational courses.

First you quoted an opionion survey which indicated vocational training was thought to be a good idea.

I'm not sure what the point of the 2005 graduation class section was...but still not supporting the issue you rasied that 99% of high schools do not have vocational training. In fact, it called out specific vocational training offered, in direct contrast to your claim.

The last section comes closest arguing that much has been shifted up to Community (Junior) Colleges. But is still isn't making or supporting your claim that 99% of high schools do not have vocational training.

Also, you've quoted a section that states that schools have put more emphasis on academics for all students because of standards based education reform. Which is the basis of the NCLB, as I understand it. Making the NCLB reforms a factor in the changes that you're decrying.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10872 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 3:58 PM
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c:"I would think that basic reading and math skills would be just as important for vocational training as for college prep. "

Back in my day, by 10th grade, nearly all the students could read, write, and do math.

In 11th grade, we had advanced geometry and advanced algebra.

In 12th grade, had calculus.

Likely, most students would be ready for 2 full years of vocational training by the end of 10th grade, or before with half and half courses - half vocational, half tradiitional.

You don't need to be teaching basic math in 12th grade! or basic writing!

t.

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Author: tconi Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10873 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 4:09 PM
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Some folks need vocational training. ....

Now, you can't find a vocational program at 99% of high schools. No shop. No auto mechanics or computers or electronics. Zip. Instead, everyone has to take 'college prep' courses whehher thay have any aptitude or not for higher education along those lines.


telegraph,
I live in CT.
The kids who have college plans, go to the town or regional high schools (some of which have outstanding agricultural programs), those who don't go to a Vo-Tech high school and get a high school diploma and the skills to walk out the door with a job as an apprentice:
electrician
mechanic
cake decorator
carpenter
etc ...

within 15 miles of my house are 3 such schools.

maybe it is the case where you are, but the options for a true vocational high school experience is still available.

peace & vo-tech
t

(and there is still wood shop & home-ec in many of our local high schools)

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10874 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 4:12 PM
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<<Yes, some folks don't have the interest or aptitude for colege prep classes. College prep isn't the issue, from what I read. It's basic reading, writing, and 'rithmetic. Children in high school who can't read or do simple arithmetic. >>



The Washington State test is a good deal more than basic arithmetic. It requires competency in the kind of math every good high school student outght to master, being able to understand and apply mathemtical terms, demonstrate an ability to use mathematical reasoning to solve problems, an understanding of geometrical concepts and reasoning, being able to apply algebraic skills and reasoning to problems, and so on.

The Washington State legislature adopted passing this test as a precondition for receiving a high school diplomma.

This would basically take us back to the time when a high school diplomma actually meant something, which it doesn't now. After a number of years to get ready to meet this standard and prepare for it, something like 45% of students to whom it would first apply would be screened out of getting a high school diplomma, with Hispanics and Blacks predictably failing at much higher rates than Whites and Asians.

Democrats, not surprisingly, couldn't stomach seeing "their" minorities failing in large numbers, and are doing everything they can to postone and gut the test.


Re: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails.



Those desiring to read further can no doubt Google up more information under WASSL.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10875 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 4:13 PM
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<<Now, you can't find a vocational program at 99% of high schools. No shop. No auto mechanics or computers or electronics. Zip. Instead, everyone has to take 'college prep' courses whehher thay have any aptitude or not for higher education along those lines.

Doing a quick search shows that my local school district has a dedicated vocational school in conjuction with a neighboring district (if I'm reading this right). A more in depth search would likely show more such programs around than one might suppose.

The rhetoric sounded good...but provide some real data to back up the claim.

Alex

>>



Just a guess, but I'll bet shop classes cost far more to offer than sex ed classes.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10876 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 4:18 PM
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<<Your claims that such skills can't be tested is precious.


You're a liar. I made no such claim.

>>



Heh, heh! I suppose "Bush Lied!" too?



Your comment was:

<<That's because, as I explained, the testing methods don't work and because Republican curriculum is religious and shouldn't be there in the first place.

>>





Seattle Pioneer

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10877 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 4:23 PM
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<<Your claims that such skills can't be tested is precious.
--------
You're a liar. I made no such claim.

-----------
Your comment was:
------------
<<That's because, as I explained, the testing methods don't work



Yes, that's exactly what I said. I never said such skills couldn't be tested.


If you think about it, you might figure out the difference.


Maybe.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10878 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 4:28 PM
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<<If it's anything, it's Bush's NCLB BS that has caused the elimination of many vocational programs. With federal funds being tied to academic test scores, the schools are forced to 'teach the tests' to be able to qualify for the monies.

>>



After bellyaching for decades about how schools short changed minority students, all Bush did was to call that bluff with the NCLB law.


The result of that law has been to put pressure on schools to help that marginal student pass that test. That DOES improve educational equality, by the usual procrustain methods of cutting off the legs of generously endowed students and stretching the legs of marginal students.

That isn't wise use of educational resources, but it's what Dems have been beefing about for decades. Now that you've got it, you don't like it.


The simple fact of life is that an ability to absorb an education is not an egalitarian aptitude. Dems like to pretend it is to Mao Mao the issue and score political points, but they are kidding themselves.


Bush has done an excellent job of demonstrating that hypocrisy with the NCLB law.





Seattle Pioneer

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10879 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 5:19 PM
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Bush has done an excellent job of demonstrating that hypocrisy OF the NCLB law.

Seattle Pioneer

There, I fixed that for you.

cliff

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Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10880 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 5:45 PM
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within 15 miles of my house are 3 such schools.

maybe it is the case where you are, but the options for a true vocational high school experience is still available.

peace & vo-tech
t
------------

Also here in the Traverse City Mi. area there is a voc tech that is a co-operative project between the school district & our local college.

Works splendidly & has a very high reputation for graduating deeply skilled individuals.

Love & voc tech
j

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10881 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 8:03 PM
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Now here is the lib school superintendent in Orangeburg SC explaining why scores are DROPPING because 'the bar has been raised'. Duh!

And then complaining that because the 'bar has been raised', they are doing poorly!

"Let me begin by thanking you for taking the time to peruse the Orangeburg Consolidated School District Five website. It has truly been a pleasure for me to be Superintendent of Orangeburg Consolidated District Five since my appointment in 1999. Since that time, we have covered a great deal of distance along our "Journey to Excellence," and with the support of parents, guardians, students, staff and community, we have moved closer to our goal of academic excellence for every child. Although our journey is not complete, we are certainly making the gains that we have been striving for and seeking."

[So he says, but see later]


"It goes without saying that our ultimate goal is to get all of our students to perform at these high levels. ..... That is why I stated earlier that we still have a lot of work to do, but we're headed in the right direction because each year we do make gains. However they are not those gargantuan gains that every district in South Carolina is striving so hard to reach.

The reality is that for the first time since the Report Cards were first released, there was a very noticeable decline in the ratings for schools and districts throughout South Carolina.

"The state's slide can be directly traced to the success bar being raised even higher.....The hard work paid off for us before and I believe that it will pay off for us again because our faculty and staff are determined to meet the mandates of the Education Accountability Act and the infamous "No Child Left Behind" legislation no matter how daunting a task it may be to reach these goals.


[OK...so he blames the NCLB act.....for the 'poor' showing of Orangeburg schools compared to schools around the state.....shoot the messenger....]. Yes, they have big problems. I would not want to be growing up there.

http://www.ocsd5schools.org/site_view_details.aspx?type=siteMessage


Talks good...but isn't taking responsibility

Here is the super in District 4...he is on the ball

"Orangeburg Consolidated School District 4 is a good district, a very good district, but we can be better. We must be better for our students and communities' future! While we have many challenges, we have made significant progress toward those challenges, but we still have a tremendous job ahead of us. Like you, I am concerned about last year's District results from the Palmetto Achievement Challenge Test (PACT), High School Assessment Program (HSAP), and No Child Left Behind (NCLB). While Edisto Primary School and Cope Area Career Center were recognized as Excellent, the other schools did not meet our high expectations. All of our schools can be and should be Schools of Excellence. We must increase our graduation rate, reduce our drop out rate, and increase student achievement at each grade level."

He uses testing as a means to identify problems, then go after them and fix them.

That is what NCLB and standardized testing does.

The LIBS hate that no end....all they want is 'PC Think'...anything a student says or does must be right otherwise their self esteem 'might be impaired'. Duh! To graduate from high school and not be able to balance a check book should put more of a dent in a person's way of thinking than flunking 7th grade math where they did none of the homework assignments and slept through half the classes while text messaging their buddy all period long.

t.

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Author: Rimacjam One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10882 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 8:14 PM
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Cliff - I would give you five quarters four nickels and five pennies just for making me have to think. ;).

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Author: Rimacjam One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10883 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/22/2008 8:15 PM
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Cliff - I would give you five quarters four nickels and five pennies just for making me have to think. ;) But I rec'd your post anyway for maintaining a nonpartisan perspective. Refreshing.

mom2threeandanangel

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Author: AcmeFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10884 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 6:58 AM
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As far as where the problem lies, talk to a teacher sometime, or read the TMF board.

I am a teacher...I left my engineering consulting job to become one this year.



They'll tell you the problem is lack of support from parents and administrators.

Many of the kids I teach have absolutely no parental support. None. They are considering joining gangs to get any support at all.



The teacher sends a kid to the principal, and the principal sends them back to class for fear of being sued for punishing the kid. A teacher flunks a kid, and the principal changes the grade for fear of being sued.

Yes and yes. Both of these do happen. I have to keep accurate records of the contacts with parents. If I don't have multiple meetings with the parents of a kid I fail, they can contest the grade and get it overturned. It does not matter how hard I pushed the kid to actually do something.



The teachers will also tell you that the richer the parents, the more likely it is that this sort of thing will happen. "NOBODY flunks my little Jeffrey! If he has to take summer school, he'll miss our 8-week trip to Europe! I want that teacher fired right now!"

I'm not sure I quite agree here. I would say that this is more a case where the richer parents are more active in their child's education. That's generally a good thing, but some of the rich parents are only active in a way that is detrimental to the child, the teacher, the class, and the school. They are combative about anything negative. They may want the best, but they have no clue how to go about getting it and end up taking a path that ensures something far less than the best.

Acme
(OT -- I find it quite funny that SP put me on his ignore list simply because I ignored telegraph.)

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10885 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 7:28 AM
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Acme
(OT -- I find it quite funny that SP put me on his ignore list simply because I ignored telegraph.)

-----

It's that narrow-minded faux-Libertarian* groupthink, 'My friend's enemy must be my enemy too'.






*a subset of the neocon GOP.





ten

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Author: buzman Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10887 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 10:00 AM
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Back in my day, by 10th grade, nearly all the students could read, write, and do math.

In 11th grade, we had advanced geometry and advanced algebra.

In 12th grade, had calculus.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most students took caluclus? In the 12th grade?

There you go again. Inventing facts.

buzman

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10888 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 10:30 AM
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buzman: "
Most students took caluclus? In the 12th grade?

There you go again. Inventing facts."

and here we have buzman 'off in outer space' without a clue. Clueless.

We had two classes of about 25 each taking calculus in 12th grade for half the year.. Sorry. Don't know what hick school you went to, or when. Our high school was very competitive in NJ in the 1960s. Right in the middle of the Space Race and science and math education was very thorough, and students did their homework (hours a day).

I got AP in math, German, and chem - got to skip the first year of college chem lab, and got credit for foreign language competency so did not have to take any foreign language additional courses in college. (Had 4 years of German in high school, passed the AP test). Did not get credit for the math, but was easy the first year.

My sister got AP in math and Spanish - did not have to take freshman math, and got credit,too, for language requirement at her college.

Nephew in Gaithersburg MD got AP in math and computer science about 12 years ago. . Got credit for 3 courses in engineering/computer science college so he could take 3 more advanced courses.

No, not all students took calculus in high school, nor took advanced chem. Only about 60 of the 330 in the high school did - but it was available to those who were up to the challenge and had the prerequisites. (Of course, the advanced chem lab was 4 hours every Saturday for most a year).

Now, what did you have in your high school?

Oh, and we had the usual football team and basketball and cheerleaders, and a bunch of kids that thought that was the beginning and end of high school.

I don't recall what the number was, but I think about 20% of the high school kids did not go on to college. About 10% went in the military (this during Vietnam War). 3 never came back. The rest went into family business, or got married right out of high school.


t.

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Author: MDGluon Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10889 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 10:47 AM
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As the sage once said: 'You have to get out of the outhouse before you can smell the stink.'

Coming in late here; and we should remember the following:

"Wrestling with a pig is useless; all you get is dirty and the pig likes it"

md

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Author: MDGluon Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10890 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 11:08 AM
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Are you sure that schools don't offer vocational training any more?

Actually here in the Boise Valley (Idaho) that option is fairly well covered; there are a number of vocational options both in high school and then Vo-tech college. We also have several charter schools set up to focus on specific areas of knowledge.

Often the rural schools in Idaho hit the basics, some of college level (but not much), and a fair amount of practical skills (shop, mechanics, etc.).

The main issue though is not one political group or another, or the "evil PC" speech.....no usually it revolves around:

1.) Funding....money for equipment, texts, building upkeep, and teachers salaries.

2.) Education level of parents....hard for a parent to help thier kid if they do not understand the subject themselves.

3.) Edumacation Bigotry....which starts with the parents and gets echoed in the kids..i.e. they think smart peoples are dumb and hate not being as well edumacated as them high fallootin sumb-of-beeches. This is often coneected with #2 above.

4.) Religously driven fear....religions usually fear education and enlightenment since all too often the religion cannot stand up in the light of knowledge...many parents have the religiously driven view that kids should only get so much edumacation since more will cause them to doubt thier religion and leve it. Explains the growth of religious colleges which have very strict and narrow areas of education.

5.) Local control of shool board.....which can be good if you have well educated, intelligent, and caring parents....and which can be a disaster when ignorant, fear driven, biased, whack-job's get control.
This can drive creation of really bad texts, wierd classes like "religious study", dumbed down tests, and attacks upon really good teachers.

6.) Weak state standards which are created/driven by 1-5.

This is not so much a conservative versus a liberal, or a Republican versus a Democrat, driven problem as more a wealthy versus middle/poor war, and a religous versus a secular one.

Just my take though....having been involved in many sides here over many years with children still in the "system".

md

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10891 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 11:50 AM
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tele: and here we have buzman 'off in outer space' without a clue. Clueless.
We had two classes of about 25 each taking calculus in 12th grade for half the year.. Sorry. Don't know what hick school you went to, or when.
SNIP[boring self-aggrandizing screed about the good old days]/SNIP
Now, what did you have in your high school?

-----

Y'know tele, I went to, and graduated, from the NJ school system about the same time you did. I went to a Voc & Tech HS in Elizabeth,NJ, graduated 1966. Even though it was a vocational school, I too had algebra, geometry and (some basics) in calculus. I was taking college level English in senior year. After I graduated I became, and still am, a tradesman.
One basic skill I, and the majority of my peers, picked up was the ability to engage in civil discourse, even with those we don't agree with. It seems you fell into that minority who couldn't seem to grasp that skill.
Whenever you post on this board it's nothing but 'in-your-face' aggresive, insulting, and in most cases uninformed or mis-informed pieces twisted by your bias into some form of 'LibDem' bashing. Sure, I've jumped into the fray picking you apart, but generally after you've ripped someone about what "hick school" they went to that left them "clueless" and other stuff along those lines.

What in the world is your problem? Are you so insecure in your convictions that all you can do to maintain the fantasy is try to find fault with anything that doesn't fit into your worldview? You sometimes sound like a person of some intelligence, but somewhere along the line forgot critical thinking. In most cases there's more than one way to skin a cat. Why don't you try some active listening instead of being in attack mode all the time? You rave on about 'Clinton LibDems' allowing no quarter while defending an administration that is demonstrably causing harm to us all, yet you never examine faults there. Try looking in your own closets before telling others what dirty clothes they have in theirs.

When you come in swinging, you'll always get what you give.




-just sayin'






ten

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10893 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 12:57 PM
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buzman says

Back in my day, by 10th grade, nearly all the students could read, write, and do math.

In 11th grade, we had advanced geometry and advanced algebra.

In 12th grade, had calculus.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most students took caluclus? In the 12th grade?

There you go again. Inventing facts.


Well now, he didn't say most took calculus. And my daughter took calculus in either the 11th or 12th grade, I forget which. That was in a public school, in 2002 or 2003.

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Author: bighairymike Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10894 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 1:02 PM
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>>buzman: "
Most students took caluclus? In the 12th grade?

There you go again. Inventing facts."<<

and here we have buzman 'off in outer space' without a clue. Clueless.

We had two classes of about 25 each taking calculus in 12th grade for half the year.. Sorry. Don't know what hick school you went to, or when. Our high school was very competitive in NJ in the 1960s. Right in the middle of the Space Race and science and math education was very thorough, and students did their homework (hours a day). - tele


-------------------------------------------

Same here. I went to HS in Indiana and took calculus my senior year. Because of that, I was able to test out of freshman calculus my first semester at Purdue.

Just providing another invented fact...

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Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10895 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 1:46 PM
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{{Most students took caluclus? In the 12th grade?

There you go again. Inventing facts.}}


I took pre-calculus in 10th grade, AP calculus in 11th grade and statistics in 12th grade.

Why would this be an invented fact?


c

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Author: tedhimself Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10896 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 2:53 PM
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There you go again. Inventing facts.}}

I think generalizations are being made on the basis of personal experience. It depends on the years one was in high school and the high school district in which one went to school.

In 1959, I graduated from high school in Austin. Texas , Calculus was not offered in any of the district's high schools at that time . I should add that I majored in electrical engineering at the University of Texas and did not find that I was less well prepared than any of the other students.

Ted

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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10897 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 3:19 PM
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{{Most students took caluclus? In the 12th grade?

There you go again. Inventing facts.}}


I took pre-calculus in 10th grade, AP calculus in 11th grade and statistics in 12th grade.

Why would this be an invented fact?


People get so fixated on scoring a point that they fail to provide context, as you did. It would be really helpful to the discussion for you to have told us when this was. I doubt that the math program in the high school any poster graduated from more than 10 years ago is the same today as it was then.

In my case I was in "advanced" math from 7th grade on, but calculus wasn't taught in any Kansas high school, and ours (1966 graduating class of 612) didn't have any college AP courses available. (I don't know whether any in the state did or not.)

Today the same school offers a ton of courses, including AP calculus, which were unheard of when I was a student.

Phil

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10898 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 3:20 PM
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Thanks 'ten' for the support.

No, clueless said there was no calculus in high school.

And you re-inforced my position by saying, even as a vo-tech student, that you had a decent math education, including some of the basic calculs.

Thus, clueless really deserved to be 'educated' on what NJ schools did back in the 60s. Which makes him 'clueless', right?

So why the attack?

He was clueless.

As to the Clintons - ARK was even behind South Carolina in "educational excellence" while they were in charge of things in the state.

If South Carolina has the 'corridor of shame', what did they call most of the state of ARK?

It's a fair question to ask! (and just because they are lib dems doesn't shield them from probing questions, like some here think - don't dare ask difficult questions of the Clintons and what records they try to hide.

This board had about 10 posts in a week until I suggested that there were major problems with education in many places - and then folks piled on and tried to blame it on the ONE thing that is actually doing something to change that - the NCLB Act - and claiming 'testing' is the problem.

Testing isn't the problem. It is failing high schools and their attempts to dumb down the tests so their failing students can pass a dumbed down test. (so no one has to suffer the ignomy of 'failing' in the PC world)

t.


t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10899 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 3:22 PM
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Thanks 'hairymike' for the support.

Seems buzman stepped on a buzz saw when he 'claimed' that no one had calculus in high school.

Once again tele vindicated by actual facts.

t.

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10901 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 3:53 PM
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MGD: We also have several charter schools set up to focus on specific areas of knowledge.

There is a charter school near us. It's sponsored by the Port of Los Angeles (POLA), streamed to prepare the students for jobs in and around the port. I don't know all the details of the financial arrangements, but apparently POLA kicks in some money. The school is located adjacent to a city housing "project", so not the best part of town. But the school gives the fast track to a job with POLA, or related jobs. There is a waiting list to get in. Standards are high, but they get good grades. Working at POLA as a longshoreman is a coveted job, but there are other jobs which are also considered as great professions.

Not every city can offer a major port to support a charter school, but it seems like a good investment for POLA. The more so, as POLA is literally a part of the city of Los Angeles. The future payoff could be enormous, if kids feel ther is a shot at a good job, even the non-charter schools may benefit, or at least, I hope so.

Ummm, I hate to mention it, but isn't L.A. considered to be a sort of liberal city? I rarely find anything to cheer about, but this is one.

cliff

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10902 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 4:00 PM
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"Tele, SP and other conservative posters convinced me years ago that our system of education is failing - by offering themselves up as exhibits. I wish I were kidding"

Tele and SP are retired early. Worked my 31 years and retired at 52.5 early and been retired 9 years now. Had fun along the way, picked up a Master's Degree in EE and had 90% of Master of Arts program done too before getting transferred. Got all the 'educamacation' I needed, thank you.

As are many of the other 'conservative' posters. It seems our education was more than sufficient to enable us to do retire early.

I suppose the same is true here?

Or is there really any other difference, other than the libs seem, for the most part, intent upon dumbing down the school system so 'no one fails' and PC rules supreme? Heck, I just read the Three Pigs are in trouble in England! Seems one religious group thinks 'pigs' are an offense to their godthingies, and so you can't mention the three little pigs in elementary school in England any more!

How long will this 'lib PC stuff' go on? Have nothing taught anywhere that anyone at anytime might decide is offense for one reason or another? Can't teach about 'slavery' unless you bash ONLY the slave owners, since otherwise some would feel 'uncomfortable'? Never mention the South 'lost' the Civil War. Just make up some PC reason for it (oh right, slavery) and then forget than half a million died really fighting over southern business interests fighting the 'north'. And on and on and on.

The schools are challenged enough as it is without a million parents screaming and fighting about a paragraph here and there in a text book, as if the world will end tomorrow unless that textbook or extra reading book is 'banned forever' from THEIR school system.

t.

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10903 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 4:05 PM
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rich: I went to, and graduated, from the NJ school system about the same time you did. I went to a Voc & Tech HS in Elizabeth,NJ, graduated 1966. Even though it was a vocational school, I too had algebra, geometry and (some basics) in calculus. I was taking college level English in senior year. After I graduated I became, and still am, a tradesman.

I am a bit older than the two of you. When I was in high school, I took whatever math was offered - plane geometry, algebra, trig. My senior year there was a one-semester class in "advanced" math, and I got into that. A little bit of calculus, how to use a slide rule (I said I was old!), and something called "number sense", so that one could easily square a two-digit number in the head, tricks to adding a column of numbers, etc. That was as good as it got. I'm not sure how calculus helps students who can't add two plus two. Aren't those the students this discussion is about?

And, rich, I have concluded that your protagonist is the most negative person I've run accross recently. Whether here, at the climate change board, the peak oil board, or any other place I see him, he is just a very negative personality. It suggests a very unhappy person behind the sarcastic, negative outlook. I have been through a similar phase in my life, and with the help of some serious counseling, I think that is mostly behind me, but it obviously comes out some times. But, yes, I am happier, for the most part.

cliff

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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10904 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 4:11 PM
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Can't teach about 'slavery' unless you bash ONLY the slave owners, since otherwise some would feel 'uncomfortable'?

Everyone knows the slaves share equal blame for slavery.

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10905 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 4:11 PM
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Although I finally peeboxed tele, it was not because of his negativity -although he does, like most of the conservatives who post at tmf, approach almost every issue with a very negative "they are evil" perspective - I finally peeboxed him because he keeps MUS and it's a waste of time to keep looking it up and verifying that he still MUS.

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10906 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 4:54 PM
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And, rich, I have concluded that your protagonist is the most negative person I've run accross recently. Whether here, at the climate change board, the peak oil board, or any other place I see him, he is just a very negative personality.
-----

Whew... I thought it was just me!
He's prolly tetchy because of all us durn LibDems sneaking into his house, peeing in his cornflakes and farting in his hats. I don't know who's been pooping in his shoes though.




...with the help of some serious counseling, I think that is mostly behind me, but it obviously comes out some times. But, yes, I am happier, for the most part.
cliff

-----

Wowser! I'd hate to have met you when you were cranky!*






ten


*yah, I are kidding ;-) I'm glad you got help. I've dealt/am dealing with my own devils and know it helps to get help. It's a shame pride won't let some folks seek it though.

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10907 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 5:05 PM
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Although I finally peeboxed tele, it was not because of his negativity -although he does, like most of the conservatives who post at tmf, approach almost every issue with a very negative "they are evil" perspective - I finally peeboxed him because he keeps MUS and it's a waste of time to keep looking it up and verifying that he still MUS.
-----

But... but... you can't peebox him. 'Cause then he WINS!

ooo, I can just f-e-e-e-l his smugness oozing through the ethernet.

ick ICK! get it off me! YUCK!


But you're right. I guess I'm done wasting time with it him. It's like trying to push a rope up a tree.






ten

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10908 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 5:07 PM
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"Can't teach about 'slavery' unless you bash ONLY the slave owners, since otherwise some would feel 'uncomfortable'?

skysix;' Everyone knows the slaves share equal blame for slavery. "

Heck, not one of my grandparents/great grandparents were here before 1880....so I have no stake in this.

If you look at the founding fathers, there is not a mention of 'slavery' in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, or other founding documents.

Just like women had 'no vote' back in 1770 (and wouldn't until the 20th century 150 years later! - and we don't blame the women for that).....

The society of 1776 for the most part 'accepted' slavery - and that was true around the world. For 10 or more millenia, the accepted situation was you lose the battle, you wind up either dead or someone's slave. Rome, Greece, Europe. White, Yellow..didn't make any difference.

Heck, the bi-bull ten commandments talk about not coveting your neighbors 'manservant' nor his 'maidservant'....(slaves). No way to "PC" that minor little detail (fact).

OH....getting back to 1776 - where none of my relatives happened to be..they were busy in Europe at the time (and none of them owned any slaves)....

There was slavery because at the time, it was 'acceptable' to nearly every other civilization in the world, including most of Europe, and the folks who invaded the USA brought with them slaves (many of the original settlers were 'indectured slaves' who required to work for so many years before gaining their freedom from that obligation in the US)....and the south benefitted from a slave trade from Africa.

As I recall, several of the northern states either allowed initially or had no oppposition to slavery.

In 1176, slaves were considered property.

99% of the folks in the USA did not own slaves - they were for large plantation owners who could afford the 'buy' labor.

That all ended 100 years ago. IT is stupid for anyone to still be playing 'victim' after 150 years...but that is one of the lib games.

That PC also creates the 'need for reparations'. Sorry, my grandparents weren't involved, and none of my lineaage was involved. I'm sure somone has done something wrong somewhere along the line to my family. Heck, my grandfather survived the Johnstown flood that wiped out 98* of the people there! Maybe I'm 'entitled' to reparations?

There's not a soul alive (I don't think) who was a 'slave' and after 150 years, if the folks haven't gotten over it, well, tough luck. Too many have been playing 'victim' for too many generations. It gets old real quick.

I'm not a bleeding heart liberal who thinks they are 'entitled' just because 200 or 300 years ago, someone did something we consider wrong today. IF you carry grudges for generations, it gets you what you have in the Middle East...a 1000 years of war that likely never will be resolved until they kill each other off entirely..... you have 'vengenance killings' for someone killed 500 years ago it seems. Duh!

Slavery ended 150 years ago. Half a million died over that issue of 'southern independence' and ability to own slaves by the aristocrats of the south. It ended with the end of the civil war.


t.

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10909 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 5:14 PM
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tele: That PC also creates the 'need for reparations'. Sorry, my grandparents weren't involved, and none of my lineaage was involved. I'm sure somone has done something wrong somewhere along the line to my family. Heck, my grandfather survived the Johnstown flood that wiped out 98* of the people there! Maybe I'm 'entitled' to reparations?

There's not a soul alive (I don't think) who was a 'slave' and after 150 years, if the folks haven't gotten over it, well, tough luck. Too many have been playing 'victim' for too many generations. It gets old real quick.

-----

I was waiting for the next tele post so I could hit the frowny face, but I have to make one last comment here.


That post goes to show that rednecks aren't just confined to the South.








that's all folks
ten

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10910 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 5:46 PM
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buzman stepped on a buzz saw when he 'claimed' that no one had calculus in high school.


Where did he make such a claim?

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10911 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 6:02 PM
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<<That post goes to show that rednecks aren't just confined to the South.
>> \




Interesting, don't you think, that the famous word to describe African Americans will get your post censored automatically, while an equivalent disparaging term used for Whites does not?




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10912 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 7:06 PM
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If you look at the founding fathers, there is not a mention of 'slavery' in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, or other founding documents.

I don't believe there's any mention of a "census" in the Constitution either, yet those of us who read and comprehend English know that the "enumeration" called for every 10 years in the Constitution is what we call "The Census." Oh, that's also where you'll find that slaves were 3/5 of a person. Figure it out, or ask someone for help.

Those who don't know that slavery was a major issue at the founding of this country are brain damaged or slept through American History, AP or for Idiots.

Phil

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10913 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 7:31 PM
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<<I don't believe there's any mention of a "census" in the Constitution either, yet those of us who read and comprehend English know that the "enumeration" called for every 10 years in the Constitution is what we call "The Census." Oh, that's also where you'll find that slaves were 3/5 of a person. Figure it out, or ask someone for help.
>>



<<<<The actual Enumeration shall be made within three years after the first meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent term of ten years, in such manner as they shall by law direct. The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty thousand, but each state shall have at least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the state of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.
>>>>



If we had one Congresscritter for each thirty thousand people, we would have a Congress populated by about 10,000 people these days. Mercy! By way of compensation, I suppose, there are something like 40,000 lobbyists paying attention to the Congress.




<<Oh, that's also where you'll find that slaves were 3/5 of a person. Figure it out, or ask someone for help.
>>



As I understand it, it was northern interests that opposed recognizing slaves as full human beings for the purpose of allocating Congressional representation. Northern state representatives to the constitutional convention didn't want their representation watered down by treating non free persons and free persons as being equal.

And Indians not taxed were exluded altogether.


Personally, being a blue state resident, I contrive to be absent from my home on the day that the census is taken, so like the Indians before me I am not counted for the purposes of enumeration. This not only has the advantage of reducing my areas heavily Dem representation in Congress, but reduces Federal spending based upon population.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10914 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 8:43 PM
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Phil: "I don't believe there's any mention of a "census" in the Constitution either, yet those of us who read and comprehend English know that the "enumeration" called for every 10 years in the Constitution is what we call "The Census." Oh, that's also where you'll find that slaves were 3/5 of a person. Figure it out, or ask someone for help."

Slaves could not vote. Period.

There were also thousands of indentured 'white' slaves.

OK Phil..now the pop quiz. What did indentured white slaves, who sold themselves for 10 or 15 years in exchange for the pasage to the 'new world' count in the census?

For the sake of determining how many House of Representative members, black slaves were counted as 3/5ths of a person of European ancestry. They did not have 3/5ths of a vote. Or any other rights of a 'citizen'.

The Constitution is silent on that issue.

Nor does it speak much for the Declaration, where it says "We believe all men are created equal". Obviously not the case as you noted. And of course, women couldn't vote, and in many places had trouble 'owning' property in their name, so they weren't equal either. They had no vote.

So once again, you have to go back to the historical period and put things in perspective.

There was no need to specify slavery in those documents because it was ACCEPTED that that was just the 'way it is' for them. That was the 'norm'.



t.

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Author: AcmeFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10915 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 8:46 PM
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Ignored User Said: buzman stepped on a buzz saw when he 'claimed' that no one had calculus in high school.

You replied: Where did he make such a claim?

Of course he never made such a claim. teletype is incapable is sticking to facts, so he makes things up that fit his needs.

What buzman said was FACTUALLY true -- most people do not take calculus in high school. They may have ACCESS to calculus classes, but that it not the same as actually taking them.

But why would teletype let facts get in his way? It's a whole lot easier to make things up.

Acme

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Author: AcmeFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10916 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 8:50 PM
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Interesting, don't you think, that the famous word to describe African Americans will get your post censored automatically, while an equivalent disparaging term used for Whites does not?

Redneck is not an equivalent term for n***er. Anyone that thinks it is even close is, at best, uninformed.

Acme

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10917 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 9:00 PM
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AcmeFool writes,

<<<Interesting, don't you think, that the famous word to describe African Americans will get your post censored automatically, while an equivalent disparaging term used for Whites does not?>>>

Redneck is not an equivalent term for n***er. Anyone that thinks it is even close is, at best, uninformed.

</snip>


I agree, but that brings up an interesting question. What is the equivalent racial slur when referring to a white guy?

Years ago I used to refer to everyone from the United Kingdom as being "English" until a Scotsman informed me that calling him "English" was almost as bad as calling a black guy the N-word.

intercst

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10918 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 9:43 PM
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what was said:

tele
Back in my day, by 10th grade, nearly all the students could read, write, and do math.

In 11th grade, we had advanced geometry and advanced algebra.

In 12th grade, had calculus.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

buzman: "Most students took caluclus? In the 12th grade?

There you go again. Inventing facts."
_________________________________________

Now, somewhere along the line, Buzman took three sentences and confused himself.

The first sentence above says 'nearly all' could read, write and do math by 10th grade.

The second sentence, it said 'we had advanced geomretry and advanced algebra'. It said nothing about EVERYONE or nearly all having advanced geometry or algebra.

The third sentence, it says 'we' had calculus. It did not say 'everyone' or nearly everyone took calculus. I was in the 20% in the advanced program, and we had advanced everything other than German and gym. (we had choice of German, Latin, Spanish, French).

SO it was 'buzman' that mis-read three sentences and combined them to come up with his mis-conclusion.

Therefore, it was 'correct' to challenge him again on this 'making up facts' when nothing was said to support his position.


buzman concluded that 'nearly everyone' had calculus..in fact he disbelived it. He just didn't read the 3 sentences correctly. There was no reason to disbelieve it, and the way he wrote his response, it was as if no one took calculus.

So the reply.

t.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10919 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 9:50 PM
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Say Tele----


You have the best rants on religion on the Fool.


But I don't see you equally inspired by the state supported religion of nature worship, the Church of The Outdoors, The Cathedral Forests, the Species Worship of the Endangered Species Act and other such expressions of environmentalist nature worship.


You do comment on that from time to time, but your really don't summon up the passion you save for the old time religions. (Of course, nature worship is a very old time religion, too).


How about some equal time?




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10920 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 10:09 PM
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Back in my day, by 10th grade, nearly all the students could read, write, and do math.

In 11th grade, we had advanced geometry and advanced algebra.

In 12th grade, had calculus.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most students took caluclus? In the 12th grade?

There you go again. Inventing facts.


When I went to high school (in New York City), math was as follows:

9th - Algebra
10th - Geometry
11th - Trigonometry
12th - Calculus (optional, many took no math class at all in 12th grade)

The Regents exams were also scheduled as described above.

I bet there have been lots of changes in the last 30+ years.

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10921 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 10:10 PM
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Redneck is not an equivalent term for n***er. Anyone that thinks it is even close is, at best, uninformed.

Acme


Maybe more at "cracker" or "honky"?

Cliff
... "Gringo"?

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10922 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 10:18 PM
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cliff666 writes,

Redneck is not an equivalent term for n***er. Anyone that thinks it is even close is, at best, uninformed.

Acme

Maybe more at "cracker" or "honky"?

Cliff
... "Gringo"?


Remember this SNL classic with Chevy Chase interviewing Richard Pryor for a job as a custodian?

http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=18318

intercst

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10923 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 10:23 PM
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In my case I was in "advanced" math from 7th grade on, but calculus wasn't taught in any Kansas high school, and ours (1966 graduating class of 612) didn't have any college AP courses available. (I don't know whether any in the state did or not.)

Maybe because they thought calculus was too close to evolution? :-)

That's really too bad that they didn't offer AP classes in addition to the advanced general classes. I loved the AP classes and took as many as possible with my schedule and graduated high school with 17 college credits to my name.

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Author: PolymerMom Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10924 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/23/2008 10:52 PM
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That's really too bad that they didn't offer AP classes in addition to the advanced general classes.

I graduated from high school in '64. In the early 60's there were no AP classes nor were there SAT tests for college credit. I vaguely remeber a writing test being offered for English.

My little sister (11 years younger) did have the opportunity to take SAT "proficiency" tests and received enough college credit to count for her freshman year. She had no AP classes.

Our recent experiences w/ AP tests indicate they are best used for credit in subjects that aren't a foundation for your major. There is a temptation for high schools to "teach to the test" in AP courses, rather than teaching the subject matter.

My older boy received credit for calculus, as did the son of a friend of ours. Both boys promptly flunked Calc II. Neither boy is "math challenged".

Our friend's son flunked it a second time and informed his father that he was going to start the whole Calc sequence over - much to his father's "joy".

My younger son's high school does not offer AP English. The department maintains that there's no need because the courses are already rigorous enough for students to get credit on APs. The numbers bear them out.

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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10925 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 12:34 AM
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I vaguely remeber a writing test being offered for English.

Are you perhaps recalling the "Writing Sample" that SAT offered and some, but not all, colleges required?

Ah, memories of a couple of special Saturdays of my long ago youth.

Phil

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10926 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 1:38 AM
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<<My older boy received credit for calculus, as did the son of a friend of ours. Both boys promptly flunked Calc II. Neither boy is "math challenged".

Our friend's son flunked it a second time and informed his father that he was going to start the whole Calc sequence over - much to his father's "joy".

My younger son's high school does not offer AP English. The department maintains that there's no need because the courses are already rigorous enough for students to get credit on APs. The numbers bear them out.

>>


So what's important here --- educational excellence for a relative few, or egalitarian education best achieved by sawing off resources from especially able students and devoting them to promoting achievement among those at the bottom end of the heap?


Personally, I favor devoting educational resources to those best able to learn from them ---aiming at maximizing achievement by top tier students.


But for decades Democrats have been wringing their hands over the failure to achieve broadly egalitarian results. Of course, they have been wringing their hands and rending their hair and clothing over such an issue, but winking at devoting educational resources among the able, while bottom tier students do worse than ever.


What the NCLB law did was to call that bluff, which it turns out that Democrats HATE! They prefer their traditional Gentleman's Agreement for the benign neglect of low end students.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: alan81 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10927 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 3:05 AM
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for decades Democrats have been wringing their hands over the failure to achieve broadly egalitarian results....What the NCLB law did was to call that bluff
That is the biggest load of crap I have heard in while. What is wanted is equal opportunity. Given equal opportunity, I would expect a more even result... but we are not even close to equal opportunity so the results question is totally mute at this point. The whole issue of equal opportunity is what started this thread.

NCLB does NOTHING to move us toward equal opportunity, but actually moves us in the opposite direction. By allowing students in program improvement schools to switch to other schools, they move those students of priviledge to better schools, while leaving the poorer students in the worse schools.
--Alan

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Author: alan81 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10928 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 3:18 AM
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While I agree that there was some misinterpretation going on... your first post implies that things are worse now...
In fact, at my daughters school, about 98% of the students pass the high school exit exam in 10th grade, which indicates to me your first point is about the same... if not likely better now than "in your day". With regards to math, the current "standard" math curriculum puts 12th graders into AP calculus. When I was in HS, you needed to be on the advanced math track to take AP calculus in the 12th grade. Today, the advanced math track puts you in AP calculus in the 11th grade, and then into AP statistics in the 12th grade.
http://nces.ed.gov/timss/TIMSS03Tables.asp?Quest=4&Figure=7
indicates the trends in math scores for the past ten years. The trend is in the right direction, but the US is still far from world class.
--Alan

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10929 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 7:49 AM
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Interesting, don't you think, that the famous word to describe African Americans will get your post censored automatically, while an equivalent disparaging term used for Whites does not?
Seattle Pioneer

-----

Tha fact that you give equal weight to the ramifications of those two terms is what's 'interesting'. Kinda along the same lines as Xtians in this country trying to claim the mantle of 'persecuted victim'.


One word is a blanket term used to disparage a whole race, no execptions.
The other applies to a particular subset of humanity whose bigotry defines them, and bigotry deserves to be disparaged in any of its iterations.






ten

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10930 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 8:44 AM
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SP: "But I don't see you equally inspired by the state supported religion of nature worship, the Church of The Outdoors, The Cathedral Forests, the Species Worship of the Endangered Species Act and other such expressions of environmentalist nature worship."

Sorry...that doesn't fit 'religion'. To be a religion, whatever it is has to believe in godthingies - at least one and mayb thousands of them - and of course, has to deny the 'existence' of other godthingies because their godthingie(s) is always a jealous 6 year old mentally misfit with 2000 BC thinking processes (usually kill, kill, kill the infidels).

Nature 'worship' is not a 'religion' anymore than 'atheism' or 'agnosticism' is a 'religion'.


SP:" You do comment on that from time to time, but your really don't summon up the passion you save for the old time religions. (Of course, nature worship is a very old time religion, too)."

Those who made 'godthingies' from nature worship, came up with ritual cermonies and required sacrifices (ie, feeding the godthingie cermonially, having a 'priest class' only able to 'intrepret' the sayings of the godthingie') then I would agree.

However, tree hugging is not a religion, nor 'save the whales'.

The are 'eco-whacks' and you don't have to look far to see my posts on that.


t.




How about some equal time?

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10931 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 8:55 AM
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Alan81: "That is the biggest load of crap I have heard in while. What is wanted is equal opportunity. Given equal opportunity, I would expect a more even result"

It must be hard for a lib accept that some students, no matter how many bucks you lavish on them, are not going to academically excell in all circirulums. You are never, despite millions, going to make a pig into a prize bull. You are not going to make someone with an IQ of 90 into a Harvard Graduate in Medicine.

Equal opportunity does not imply equal outcome.

You can take athletically gifted students, and some might make the NBA or major football leagues. You take 90 lb 10th grade skinny kid with no sports coordination, poor eyesight, and you aren't going to see them as quarterback in the super bowl no matter how much 'equal opportunity' there is!


alan 81: "NCLB does NOTHING to move us toward equal opportunity, but actually moves us in the opposite direction. "

Oh, you mean by showing that lib schools have swept the little details that PC school circumulum doesn't teach half the kids at grade level? That folks who got 'graduation certificates' couldn't read or balance a check book?

Again, the lib cry "Shoot the messenger" ..rather than fix they system to educate the kids!

Amazing

alan81: "By allowing students in program improvement schools to switch to other schools, they move those students of priviledge to better schools, while leaving the poorer students in the worse schools."

Ho ho ho....'students of privelege'... what a joke. The ones who want to switch in Dallas are the ones who have parents that care - and are in schools with horrible academic performance and a student body that is apathetic.

You wanted 'equal opportunity'. But when you want good students to have 'equal opportunity' at other schools, suddenly you do a 180 degree flip flop insisting that the good students be FORCED to endure an environment of 'lack of opportunity' to excell.

Amazing! You want to win on both sides of the argument!

t.

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10932 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 9:24 AM
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"The fact that you give equal weight to the ramifications of those two terms is what's 'interesting'. Kinda along the same lines as Xtians in this country trying to claim the mantle of 'persecuted victim'."


It has been obvious to me for some time that the Republican platform has been tailored to appeal to the racists and that racism is at the core of the modern American conservative movement. That does not mean that all, or even most, conervatives are racists but a significant percentage of them are. And a lot of the conservative posters are racists who are either smart enough not to admit it in public, or who cannot admit it even to themselves.

Occasionally we see glimpses of the rationalizations that racists use.

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10933 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 9:27 AM
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Our recent experiences w/ AP tests indicate they are best used for credit in subjects that aren't a foundation for your major. There is a temptation for high schools to "teach to the test" in AP courses, rather than teaching the subject matter.

It not only recent, but also was a problem 30+ years ago when I was in school. But it isn't solely due to "teaching to the test", it is also due to the fact that certain AP classes (in my opinion, the math and science ones, but someone better versed in other subjects might think the same of those) are simply not as rigorous as real college courses. And, in fact, back then, we discovered that not all colleges accept AP credit in all subjects (possibly due to this lack of rigor).

I took AP Calculus I and AP Calculus II in High School and then entered engineering school and took Calculus III in my first semester. Oh what a shock that was to me, I was quite unprepared and it was very difficult for me. It took me half the semester to simply catch up and it was the only math/science/engineering course that I didn't receive a grade of 'A' throughout my attendance in college and graduate school. I really wasn't used to having to work hard in such courses as those subjects generally were very easy for me.

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Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10934 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 9:51 AM
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It has been obvious to me for some time that the Republican platform has been tailored to appeal to the racists and that racism is at the core of the modern American conservative movement. That does not mean that all, or even most, conervatives are racists but a significant percentage of them are. And a lot of the conservative posters are racists who are either smart enough not to admit it in public, or who cannot admit it even to themselves.

Occasionally we see glimpses of the rationalizations that racists use.

-----

Yep. Unfortunately, institutionalized racism is still pervasive in our society. Somewhat less obtrusive than in the past, but still there, and the bigots amongst us take every advantage to maintain the status quo. After all, isn't conservatism all about maintaining the status quo?

Conservative = conserve = keep things as they are.

Progressive = progress = move forwrd (change)






ten

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10935 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 10:09 AM
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<<Those who made 'godthingies' from nature worship, came up with ritual cermonies and required sacrifices (ie, feeding the godthingie cermonially, having a 'priest class' only able to 'intrepret' the sayings of the godthingie') then I would agree.

>>



I see all these things being present in the Church of the Outdoors and such. In my view, religion is all about what is venerated --- worshipped.

So I think your definition of religion is flawed.


But thanks for your reply.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10936 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 10:19 AM
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<<It has been obvious to me for some time that the Republican platform has been tailored to appeal to the racists and that racism is at the core of the modern American conservative movement. That does not mean that all, or even most, conervatives are racists but a significant percentage of them are. And a lot of the conservative posters are racists who are either smart enough not to admit it in public, or who cannot admit it even to themselves.

Occasionally we see glimpses of the rationalizations that racists use.
>>



Of course, there is no racism among Liberals as long as they profess a belief in equal opportunity, no matter how lousy the educational performance of their favored minorities may be.


Forty years or more domination of most big city school system by Liberals, and the result is that achievement in schools by minorities is WORSE THAN EVER!

Despite that, for the most part Liberalism fights for the status quo in public education excepting only a constant demand that more money be poured into an obviously failing system.


This is the racism of benign neglect, among other things. And it's not subtle at all.





Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10937 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 11:24 AM
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jcg: "It has been obvious to me for some time that the Republican platform has been tailored to appeal to the racists and that racism is at the core of the modern American conservative movement. That does not mean that all, or even most, conervatives are racists but a significant percentage of them are. And a lot of the conservative posters are racists who are either smart enough not to admit it in public, or who cannot admit it even to themselves. "

Oh my gosh..amazing.

Let's see...for decades, we have Jesse Jackson and his companions raising the 'race card' and "I'm a victim" mentaility, along with 'reparations' for what happened 50 years before my family was even in the country, and you accuse the 'Republicans' of appealing to rascists. Amazing.

For decades, you have the Kennedies pandering to both sides of the 'race equation'.

For the last decade or two, you have had the libs and teachers union foisting their concept of PC (no one fails because you eliminate all standards and then kids have 'self esteem') upon the rest of us.

For decades, the libs have sought 'equal opportunity' and 'academic malaise'.

COuld it just be that the conservatives are tired of 'more equal than anyone else' because 'I've been a victim' thinking and five generations of welfare babies having more welfare babies with no hope of breaking the cycle if you keep throwing billions at keeping it going? Could it be that Republics are tired of hearing "I'm a victim" and "I'm not responsible for my destiny - give me more handouts - I'm depreive!"?

Could it be that the conservative taxpayers are tired of seeing their money wasted on PC education programs that don't educate? On state schools and administrators more concerned with 'self esteem' than 'academic performance' and developing personal responsibility?

Could it be that conseravatives are tired of seeing their tax dollars taken from them that they worked hard to earn, to give it to those who can't be bothered to work and can't be bothered to develop personal financial responsibilities? To those who can't be bothered to get an education (because the 'hood' is more exciting) and know they'll collect food stamps and free housing no matter how much they goof off?

You mistake forcing folks to be responsible for themselves.

You must really like the socialists and the concept of the nanny state.

Most conservatives and Republicans don't.

If that, in your book, makes them rascist, then you have a strange book.


t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10938 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 11:31 AM
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ten: "Conservative = conserve = keep things as they are.

Progressive = progress = move forwrd (change)"

Change to what? a nanny state?

Ask Obama and Hillary what they intend to change, and about the only thing they say they'll do is 'tax the rich' (middle class taxpayer).

So they raise taxes 20%, give you back 10$ in 'free healthcare' and then squander the other 10% in give backs to those who pay no income taxes as part of the nanny state.

Actually, conservatives want to follow the Consitituion. Strict interpretation. No legislation from 'the bench'. That was assigned to Congress, not the Judicial branch of gov't.

Fiscal and peronal responsibility.

On the other hand, the lib dems are socialists. Let the 'state' control your life. Let the state control what you can and cannot see or hear on the radio (McCain Feingold Act, the McCain-Kennedy Act, etc).

The Lib Dems want to take another 20-30% of your income to pay for 'free' whatever, and redistribute that across the board to those unwilling to work or those who aren't responsible themselves through personal choices.

The Lib Dems are LIBERAL - and socialist. Meaning they'll freely confiscate your hard earned money and give it those who would rather not work hard to have any, or work at all, expecting subsidized housing, subsidized food, free healthcare for their 6 illegitimate children from six different fathers who don't pay child support. And on and on.

They'll tax business to where it moves overseas, in the name of 'socialism' and paying for the nanny state.


t.

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Author: buzman Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10939 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 11:34 AM
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No, clueless said there was no calculus in high school.

And you re-inforced my position by saying, even as a vo-tech student, that you had a decent math education, including some of the basic calculs.

Thus, clueless really deserved to be 'educated' on what NJ schools did back in the 60s. Which makes him 'clueless', right?


There you go again...

Inventing facts.

You claimed "everyone" took calculus in high school. Then you admited everyone didn't.

I merely pointed out that everyone does not take calculus in high school.

If calculus was offered to so many students then your school district must have had a high level of taxes because math and science teachers are hard to come by.

For the record, I took one quarter of pre-calculus in high school-made a B, I think.

Also, for the record, calculus was offered but the guys who took calculus lacked the, ahem, success the buzman had with the girls.

A fact that still rankles tele today!

Clueless I may be, but date-less...not hardly.

buzman --->

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Author: buzman Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10940 of 59776
Subject: Re: Liberal Education - no one fails Date: 1/24/2008 11:37 AM
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