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Author: Knighted Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 726165  
Subject: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/13/2012 11:53 PM
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Below are several popular myths perpetrated by the left that have been deceptively fed to the average American as fact - solidly dispelled.

1) Myth: "The rich aren't paying their fair share. They are paying less than the middle class and poor do."

Fact: The rich pay a disproportionately high tax rate in this country, far higher than the middle class and poor. The chart below proves this with unbiased data taken from the US Treasury. The top 1% pay an effective tax rate of 30% in federal taxes while the poorest 20% of Americans pay a tax rate of around 5%.

http://tcftakingnote.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54ffb96988833015434...


2) Myth: "Government spending is not the problem. It's a revenue problem."

Fact: As shown below, government spending is at record highs and has been rising at the local, state, AND federal level as a share of the overall economy on a continuous upward slope for decades. Today, government as a whole consumes almost $0.50 of every $1.00 produced in this country, whereas it consumed only $0.07 of every $1.00 back in 1910.

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2012/2/496474_1328214...


3) Myth: "The problem with the US's poor education system is that we're just not spending enough money on it."

Fact: As shown below, the US spends more money per student than every country in the world but Switzerland, and by a large margin. If money was the problem, US students would be the brightest in the world.

http://mercatus.org/sites/default/files/International%20Educ...


4) Myth: "Top tax rates were 90% in the 1940's/50's and the US experienced unprecedented growth. This proves that tax hikes make the economy grow and/or don't harm economic growth."

Fact: First, the 90% top rate applied to virtually no one since the income limits were so high. Second, the tax code was radically different back then and after the myriad of deductions, no one actually paid this rate. In fact, the average effective tax rate, or the tax rate people paid after all deductions, was lower in these years than today.

That destroys the argument that high taxes somehow boost or don't affect economic growth. The countless economics studies compiled below by MadCapitalist that were conducted by a myriad of non-partisan sources prove that low taxes boost economic growth and that high taxes in fact hurt economic growth.

http://boards.fool.com/taxes-and-economic-growth-30045166.as...


5) Myth: "Oil companies don't pay their fair share in taxes."

Fact: As shown below, the oil industry and its companies pay an enormously high tax rate averaging close to 40% on their profit. This is more than almost every other industry in the US. Moreover, oil companies also have a profit margin below the national average. In fact, oil companies make less profit on a gallon of gas than the government does in taxes, despite the fact that they do all of the work exploring, producing, refining, and delivering it.

http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/wp-content/uploads...
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Author: Colovion Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655056 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 9:05 AM
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Practically everything liberals believe is a myth. You could spend the rest of your life dispelling the myths they believe, but it's sort of pointless. Once they get them into their heads they're stuck there. You have to start with kids, get them to realize that these myths are bogus and go from there.

My fifth and sixth grade teacher said something in class that has stuck with me my entire life, "Socialists claim to have the perfect system on paper, but people don't live on paper." Because of that lesson I've known since fifth grade that socialism is a sham. When you can get kids to look at their arguments and say, "Looks good, but does it work in the real world?" then you've won, because in the real world their ideas are terrible. They have good intentions, but invariably there are consequences to their ideas that are unintended and make things much, much worse. If you can get kids to "think beyond stage one" and realize that good intentions don't mean squat if the results are terrible then you can cut off the liberal moochers and their libtard enablers at the knees.

Unfortunately, as the recent Northwestern conference on Marxism that was chock full of Chicago teachers shows, we've got the enemy in our schools teaching our kids the exact opposite. My son at least has me to counteract those teachings... but I've met a lot of parents who are just as bad as the teachers (for the most part... not all teachers are commies of course, such as the teacher I cited earlier). Those kids will never question the myths, it won't even occur to them that they could possibly be myths.

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655058 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 9:11 AM
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My fifth and sixth grade teacher said something in class that has stuck with me my entire life, "Socialists claim to have the perfect system on paper, but people don't live on paper."
---------------------------------------------------
You're the exception though. In 5th grade i was taught Hoover was Lazy Fare and FDR got us out of the Great Depression with bold experimentation. I was taught that even in college. Think of how much unlearning is necessary, and anyone doing the unlearning had to have the weight of a college professor teaching you the opposite of what the college professor taught you in the first place. See what i'm sayin'?

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Author: Colovion Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655070 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 10:02 AM
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You're the exception though. In 5th grade i was taught Hoover was Lazy Fare and FDR got us out of the Great Depression with bold experimentation. I was taught that even in college. Think of how much unlearning is necessary, and anyone doing the unlearning had to have the weight of a college professor teaching you the opposite of what the college professor taught you in the first place. See what i'm sayin'?

Yeah, I get that. I don't think it was that teacher who made me a Conservative per se, I already was Conservative before then (I supported the GOP even back in the fourth grade). It certainly wasn't my family who made me Conservative either. I was raised by a single mom who was (and is) a lefty. But even then I realized that her political worldview just didn't make any sense to me.

Then again that was back during the presidency of Ronaldus Magnus, so being Conservative was cool in some ways then. I still had teachers telling me the world would end because Reagan would get us into a nuclear war with the USSR (really, my 2nd grade teacher had me too scared to sleep at night!) but Alex P. Keaton was my role-model.

There probably is something to being geneticaly predisposed to certain ideologies, that's really the only way I can explain why I latched onto Conservatism at such a young age despite being almost entirely surrounded by hard-core liberals and have stuck with it despite years and years and YEARS of various teachers and professors trying to teach me to be anything but Conservative (save for that one teacher I was lucky enough to have for two years). It isn't hard to imagine I could have easily turned out liberal otherwise, pretty much everyone else I grew up with did.

Just a few choice encounters (that teacher, my college roommates) and now I'm a hardcore capitalist agnostic conservative (I'm Lutheran on paper, but perhaps the least committed Lutheran in history.) Actually makes my life harder living here in Ann Arbor, but all that means is I have to constantly think about what makes sense in the real world because my beliefs are constantly challenged. Given that for liberals it's all about intentions it's not impossible to shoot down their theories and myths by simply pointing to the results.

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Author: Jim2B Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655073 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 10:19 AM
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They have good intentions, but invariably there are consequences to their ideas that are unintended and make things much, much worse.

I disagree 100%.

You show me a socialist and I'll show you someone who thinks they will personally gain from socialism. For the majority of socialist, they believe the lies of their socialist leaders that the state will give them more loot. For those in power, it is a power grab. They believe that once they have power, they'll only give the lowly followers enough loot to keep them from turning away.

Whether the socialist plans to be one of those dividing up the loot or receiving the loot, it doesn't matter. Neither group has good intentions. They don't care what happens to the standard of living, how they are harming those they are looting or anything else.

Socialists are people trying to wrap mealymouthed platitudes around pure unadulterated greed and selfishness. Then they turn around and accuse those they are looting of greed.

They are the lowest of the low, there is a special place in hell for them, and it is a place run by socialists.

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Author: Jim2B Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655074 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 10:21 AM
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How you can tell socialism doesn't work in 1 easy step.

The likelihood a country has to build a wall to keep its citizens from fleeing the country is directly proportional to the degree in which that country has adopted socialism.

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Author: Colovion Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655079 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 12:34 PM
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I disagree 100%.

You show me a socialist and I'll show you someone who thinks they will personally gain from socialism.


True. Though it's probably fair to say that they and people they group themselves with expect to gain from socialism, hence the prevalence of "group identities" in their politics. It's very "us vs. them".

I'd just as soon avoid that whole dichotomy, but they insist upon it. So be it. I side with the capitalists then, those fat cat rich people who get things done and have all the money. Their move.

I'm sure they'll argue "you're being used by the rich!" More like I'm repulsed by the moochers. Meh. To put it in words they'll understand I'd rather be used by respectable people than worshipped by detestable ones.

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655109 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 2:38 PM
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They are the lowest of the low, there is a special place in hell for them, and it is a place run by socialists.

Ironically, in hell, being run by socialists, they will probably freeze to death.

JLC

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655111 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 2:44 PM
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Socialism is the scum of the earth and so are those who adhere to it.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655113 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 2:50 PM
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"They are the lowest of the low, there is a special place in hell for them, and it is a place run by socialists."
----------------------
"Ironically, in hell, being run by socialists, they will probably freeze to death." - JLC



I'm sorry but actually I think it's Heaven that is run by socialist.

Acts 2:
44 "And all who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need."

And what about the parable about the vineyard owner that pays everyone the same wage regardless of how much time they worked?

Matthew 20:
1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the market place; 4 and to them he said, 'You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.' So they went. 5 Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing; and he said to them, 'Why do you stand here idle all day?' 7 They said to him, 'Because no one has hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.' 8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.' 9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the householder, 12 saying, 'These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.' 13 But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?'

Art

Art

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655114 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 2:53 PM
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I'm sorry but actually I think it's Heaven that is run by socialist.

Acts 2:
44 "And all who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need."


BBBBUUUUUUUUUZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!

Wrong answer, but thanks for playing.

Noticed that they willfully contributed and gave away. Not at the point of a bayonet or gun. Socialism/Communism is not an opt in or opt out proposition.

God loves a cheerful giver, not one that is forced.

JLC

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655124 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 3:31 PM
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Wrong answer, but thanks for playing.

Noticed that they willfully contributed and gave away. Not at the point of a bayonet or gun. Socialism/Communism is not an opt in or opt out proposition.

God loves a cheerful giver, not one that is forced. - JLC

-----------------


Buzzzzz!!! Wrong interpretation of my post. I was responding to your post, not making a political statement. I could care less about your bloody politics. Your constant political bickering bores the hell out of me.

You were talking about Hell being socialist and I responded that it appears that according to Jesus Heaven is a socialist paradise.

Jesus story was to explain to his listeners what the Kingdom of Heaven was like. In fact that is what all his stories are about. He was using parables to say "And the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto"......

Jesus prayed in the garden to God that his followers would experience that oneness and connected with each other that Jesus experienced with God. Another words, Heaven on Earth. He was saying "this is what heaven is like."

The church is made up of the followers of Jesus and is supposed to be a respite from the world, a little piece of Heaven on Earth. A place to escape the duality and the separation of the World.

Art

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655129 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 3:48 PM
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Art wrote: And what about the parable about the vineyard owner that pays everyone the same wage regardless of how much time they worked?


The meaning of the parable is totally lost on you. Notice that the parable says, "What is it to you what I pay others? I pay as I see fit."

In other words, "Get your hands out of other people's rice bowls."

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655138 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 4:20 PM
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You were talking about Hell being socialist...

Re-read Art. I was making a joke about hell being run by socialists, not that it was socialist. Instead of burning eternally by fire they would freeze to death. A play off of Margaret Thatcher of running out of other people's money, they would soon run out of fire, in hell.

As a parting gift you'll receive a year supply of Pez candy.

Next contestant, come on down.

JLC

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655146 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 4:48 PM
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Knighted: "Below are several popular myths perpetrated by the left that have been deceptively fed to the average American as fact - solidly dispelled.

1) Myth: "The rich aren't paying their fair share. They are paying less than the middle class and poor do."

Fact: The rich pay a disproportionately high tax rate in this country, far higher than the middle class and poor. The chart below proves this with unbiased data taken from the US Treasury. The top 1% pay an effective tax rate of 30% in federal taxes while the poorest 20% of Americans pay a tax rate of around 5%.

http://tcftakingnote.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54ffb96988833015434...... "


That is not what your chart shows. Did you even look at it. The lowest quintile pays north of 10% of federal taxes, not around 5% as you wrote.

In addition you chart is not sourced.

For the 2000's, the top 1% reported at least 16.2% of all AGI up to 22.83% of all AGI and never reported AGI below $285,424 (and in 2007 at least $410,096).

For the same period, the bottom 50% never reported more than 14.23% of AGI and sometimes no more than 12.26% of AGI, with the largest AGI being $33,048 and the lowest being %27,682).

See Table 5 and 6 -

http://taxfoundation.org/article/summary-latest-federal-indi...

I will need to see if I can find the corresponding data for the bottom quintile, but clearly it would be lower numbers than the bottom half, and it would not be surprisng if it was less than 6% of all AGI at best and less than 5% at worst [because assuming even distributin of income among bottom 50% {which would be a bad assumption} would change the 14.23% to 5.69% for the bottom quintile and the 12.26% to 4.9%.

Regards, JAFO

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655147 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 4:51 PM
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Is this fair enough for you JAFO? Give me a "Yes" or "No".

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/2286.html

While many studies answer the ques­tion of who pays taxes in America, the question of who gets the most government spending is often overlooked. Just as some Americans bear a larger portion of the nation's tax burden than others, some Americans also receive a larger share of the nation's government spending.

This report summarizes the key findings of a comprehensive 2007 Tax Foundation study of federal, state and local taxes and government spending. The results show that when we consider the distribution of government spending as well as taxes, it provides a dramatically altered view of how U.S. fiscal policy affects Americans at different income levels than is apparent from the distribution of tax burdens alone.

Overall, we find that America's lowest-earning one-fifth of households received roughly $8.21 in government spending for each dollar of taxes paid in 2004. Households with middle-incomes received $1.30 per tax dollar, and America's highest-earning households received $0.41. Government spending targeted at the lowest-earning 60 percent of U.S. households is larger than what they paid in federal, state and local taxes. In 2004, between $1.03 trillion and $1.53 trillion was redistributed downward from the two highest income quintiles to the three lowest income quintiles through government taxes and spending policy.
------------------------------------------------------------

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655153 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 5:03 PM
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Acts 2:
44 "And all who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need."


And, as I recall, they went broke.

Funny how that happens...

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655156 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 5:14 PM
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2828: "Is this fair enough for you JAFO? Give me a "Yes" or "No".

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/2286.html "


Probably. Until I have time to read it in full, your preferred yes or no response is pending.

"While many studies answer the ques­tion of who pays taxes in America, the question of who gets the most government spending is often overlooked. Just as some Americans bear a larger portion of the nation's tax burden than others, some Americans also receive a larger share of the nation's government spending."

I do note, however, that you are changing the topic from the OP's post (which was focused on payment of taxes), and that the link you cite
(see page 23), states that effective tax rate on bottom quintilie is 13%, which agrees with my north of 10% statement and flatly contradicts OP's 5% statement.

I also note the the report does not separate out the top 1% (see page 21) and that on page 24 it notes that the top income quintile receives the second highest government spending per household.

Given that the paper runs nearly 120 pages and that I have never previously reviewed it, it will take some time.

Regards, JAFO

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655163 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 5:59 PM
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2828: "Is this fair enough for you JAFO? Give me a "Yes" or "No".

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/2286.html "

Probably. Until I have time to read it in full, your preferred yes or no response is pending.
----------------------------------------------
No need, just the fact that you think it's possible for it to be fair is enough for me ;0).

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655184 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 9:31 PM
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Fact: The rich pay a disproportionately high tax rate in this country, far higher than the middle class and poor. The chart below proves this with unbiased data taken from the US Treasury. The top 1% pay an effective tax rate of 30% in federal taxes while the poorest 20% of Americans pay a tax rate of around 5%.

It's curious that your link to "the chart below" doesn't mention how any of the "unbiased data" was derived. No link, no explanation, no nothing, just a chart on some blog somewhere.

On the other hand, here is a chart which explains exactly where the information comes from, breaks it down numerically, and demonstrates that taxes are barely progressive at all. The rich do not pay "a disproportionately high tax rate" at all. Not close.
http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2012.pdf

Fact: As shown below, government spending is at record highs and has been rising at the local, state, AND federal level as a share of the overall economy on a continuous upward slope for decades. Today, government as a whole consumes almost $0.50 of every $1.00 produced in this country, whereas it consumed only $0.07 of every $1.00 back in 1910.

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2012/2/496474_1328214......


I wonder if you bothered looking at the very chart you linked? I ask becauxe if you do, you will notice that the spending lurches upward when there's a Republican in the White House, and the curve bends down every time a Democrat takes over.

The two big wars are obvious, but notice what happens in the 80's with Reagan? Notice what happens in the 90's with Clinton? Notice what happens in the 00's with Bush?

Oops, there's a big jump in around 2008. I wonder if that's because tax revenues collapsed along with the economy, and safety net spending on things like unemployment insurance went up? I dunno, I guess we could blame that on Obama, even though the collapse which so obviously caused it happened before he was even running for office.

Fact: As shown below, the US spends more money per student than every country in the world but Switzerland, and by a large margin. If money was the problem, US students would be the brightest in the world.

Everything costs more in this country. Health care. Housing costs. Automobile ownership. Why would the fact that we pay teachers a living wage surprise you? We should pay them as though they lived in Spain, but expect them to teach in Boston? Could the education system be better? Sure. Chip in with some plan other than "let's dismantle it" and we'll talk.

Fact: First, the 90% top rate applied to virtually no one since the income limits were so high. Second, the tax code was radically different back then and after the myriad of deductions, no one actually paid this rate. In fact, the average effective tax rate, or the tax rate people paid after all deductions, was lower in these years than today.

Another fact-free rant. In the 1950's, the high tax rates collected more than 10% of total Federal revenue. This is not "nothing" and was clearly paid "by someone." [ http://conversableeconomist.blogspot.com/2012/03/top-margina... ] This does not mean that those rates were optimal, nor that anyone is advocating a return to something like that. It does, however, demonstrate that you are willing to make up facts to suit yourself, rather than address reality as it is.

Fact: As shown below, the oil industry and its companies pay an enormously high tax rate averaging close to 40% on their profit.

Again your link offers no information on how those numbers were derived. But clearly they are counting everything (since is is impossible to achieve a 50% corporate tax rate when the top tier is 35%), probably including taxes collected at the pump, sales taxes, property taxes, and everything else. This is a sham. Exxon, for instance, paid zero corporate taxes in 2009, but your chart produces the magic figure 42.4% with no documentation of any kind.

Do you believe everything you read on the internet, especially the clap trap that comes without explanation of any kind, just because it suits your argument? No wonder the Republican party is in such trouble. You can make up anything, and the gullible will swallow it hook, line, and sinker.
 


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Author: AOLFoolman100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655187 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 9:51 PM
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I have read posts by Knighted, and they are great and make total sense. Knighted makes great posts.....i remember his post about freedom and country wealth.

But the reality is that facts and logic make no sense.

You think that the 51-52% who voted for Obama will have any access to the numbers in your post or even have the ability to comprehend it?

Very likely not. They respond to visuals, sound bites, and political correct themes.

Hoping that the electorate pays more attention or becomes smarter....not going to happen.

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Author: AOLFoolman100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655191 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 10:29 PM
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Amazingly, on a conservative board.....an hour after posting, Goofy has already 4 recs.....whereas all over posts in the same time frame are bare with recs.

He'll come back later to rec himself some more I'm sure. Self masterbation

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655202 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 11:08 PM
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GoofusDoofus wrote: You can make up anything, and the gullible will swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

Talk about gullible! There's no voter more gullible than a librul.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655208 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 11:27 PM
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"The meaning of the parable is totally lost on you. Notice that the parable says, "What is it to you what I pay others? I pay as I see fit."
In other words, "Get your hands out of other people's rice bowls." - catherine"



Horse manure. You don't have a clue who or what Jesus was. You are in for such a big surprise.

Art

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655209 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/14/2012 11:45 PM
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Fact: The rich pay a disproportionately high tax rate in this country, far higher than the middle class and poor. The chart below proves this with unbiased data taken from the US Treasury. The top 1% pay an effective tax rate of 30% in federal taxes while the poorest 20% of Americans pay a tax rate of around 5%.

It's curious that your link to "the chart below" doesn't mention how any of the "unbiased data" was derived. No link, no explanation, no nothing, just a chart on some blog somewhere.


The data comes from the Congressional Budget Office, so you will want to reject it as a right-wing organization:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Doc...

Fact: As shown below, government spending is at record highs and has been rising at the local, state, AND federal level as a share of the overall economy on a continuous upward slope for decades. Today, government as a whole consumes almost $0.50 of every $1.00 produced in this country, whereas it consumed only $0.07 of every $1.00 back in 1910.

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2012/2/496474_1328214.........


I wonder if you bothered looking at the very chart you linked? I ask becauxe if you do, you will notice that the spending lurches upward when there's a Republican in the White House, and the curve bends down every time a Democrat takes over.


LOL. Are you forgetting Obama? [Yeah, I know. This is the part where you assign the FY 2009 spending that Obama signed to Bush]

Besides, if Democrats were so fiscally responsible, they wouldn't spend like crazy when they control Congress. [Insert excuse here]

Fact: First, the 90% top rate applied to virtually no one since the income limits were so high. Second, the tax code was radically different back then and after the myriad of deductions, no one actually paid this rate. In fact, the average effective tax rate, or the tax rate people paid after all deductions, was lower in these years than today.

Another fact-free rant. In the 1950's, the high tax rates collected more than 10% of total Federal revenue. This is not "nothing" and was clearly paid "by someone." [ http://conversableeconomist.blogspot.com/2012/03/top-margina...... ] This does not mean that those rates were optimal, nor that anyone is advocating a return to something like that. It does, however, demonstrate that you are willing to make up facts to suit yourself, rather than address reality as it is.


Who is making up facts? From your link:

"marginal tax rates above 39.7% collected more than 10% of income tax revenue back in the late 1950s."

39.7% is a far cry from 90%.

Fact: As shown below, the oil industry and its companies pay an enormously high tax rate averaging close to 40% on their profit.

Again your link offers no information on how those numbers were derived. But clearly they are counting everything (since is is impossible to achieve a 50% corporate tax rate when the top tier is 35%), probably including taxes collected at the pump, sales taxes, property taxes, and everything else. This is a sham. Exxon, for instance, paid zero corporate taxes in 2009, but your chart produces the magic figure 42.4% with no documentation of any kind.


Read the Exxon annual report. It's not rocket surgery.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655221 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/15/2012 2:15 AM
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Art wrote: You don't have a clue who or what Jesus was. You are in for such a big surprise.

Pfffft!

See, the thing is, if I'm wrong, nothing happens (according to you). Indeed, if I'm wrong, wonderfulness nonetheless breaks out. I've got nothing to lose if I'm wrong AND nothing to lose and everything to gain if I'm right.

But if I'm right and you're wrong--OOPS! Eternity is an awfully long time to contemplate being wrong. It's kinda like the "heads I win, tails you lose" gamble of life.

Think about it.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655240 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/15/2012 9:56 AM
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See, the thing is, if I'm wrong, nothing happens (according to you). Indeed, if I'm wrong, wonderfulness nonetheless breaks out. I've got nothing to lose if I'm wrong AND nothing to lose and everything to gain if I'm right.

But if I'm right and you're wrong--OOPS! Eternity is an awfully long time to contemplate being wrong. It's kinda like the "heads I win, tails you lose" gamble of life.

Think about it.


Ah, Pascal's Wager.

What if you're both wrong?

(Or, to directly answer Pascal, what if you're right in principle but picked the wrong version of the deity?)

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Author: Jim2B Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655254 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/15/2012 11:46 AM
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See, the thing is, if I'm wrong, nothing happens (according to you). Indeed, if I'm wrong, wonderfulness nonetheless breaks out. I've got nothing to lose if I'm wrong AND nothing to lose and everything to gain if I'm right.

But if I'm right and you're wrong--OOPS! Eternity is an awfully long time to contemplate being wrong. It's kinda like the "heads I win, tails you lose" gamble of life.



Imagine a deity great enough to create a Universe based upon knowable and discoverable set of logical rules. A Universe that runs for billions of years without direct "personal" intervention.

Imagine a deity great enough to create a system of rule whereby life can spawn spontaneously and evolve to the point of developing consciousness, freewill, and empathy.

I do not understand how anyone capable of believing such a powerful, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent deity could exist AND require obeisance from the beings it has spawned on penalty of eternal torture.

I mean, I am no where near as powerful as that and if people in my neighborhood do not think I'm a great guy, I do not wish eternal damnation upon them. I care even less about what sub-Saharan tribal Africans might think of me.

According to you, this particular powerful deity condemns those who have not even heard of him to unimaginable tortures for all eternity simply because they haven't had the opportunity to even decide about him. What kind of sadistic, brutal, spiteful deity are you worshiping?

I personally can't reconcile the properties of a deity powerful enough to setup this Universe with a being as petty as some Christians think he might be. I just can't imagine the powerful God mentioned above caring one whit about the personal beliefs of one of the beings he gave free will too.

I wouldn't care and God is supposed to be far more compassionate and loving than me.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655258 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/15/2012 12:10 PM
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"Imagine a deity great enough to create a Universe based upon knowable and discoverable set of logical rules. A Universe that runs for billions of years without direct "personal" intervention.

Imagine a deity great enough to create a system of rule whereby life can spawn spontaneously and evolve to the point of developing consciousness, freewill, and empathy.

I do not understand how anyone capable of believing such a powerful, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent deity could exist AND require obeisance from the beings it has spawned on penalty of eternal torture.

I mean, I am no where near as powerful as that and if people in my neighborhood do not think I'm a great guy, I do not wish eternal damnation upon them. I care even less about what sub-Saharan tribal Africans might think of me.

According to you, this particular powerful deity condemns those who have not even heard of him to unimaginable tortures for all eternity simply because they haven't had the opportunity to even decide about him. What kind of sadistic, brutal, spiteful deity are you worshiping?

I personally can't reconcile the properties of a deity powerful enough to setup this Universe with a being as petty as some Christians think he might be. I just can't imagine the powerful God mentioned above caring one whit about the personal beliefs of one of the beings he gave free will too.

I wouldn't care and God is supposed to be far more compassionate and loving than me." - Jim

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly. Thank you for stating it so succinctly. I have 30 graduate hours towards a Masters Degree in Holistic Teaching and Learning. There is a kind of learning that is informal, buried in our everyday lives, where you learn things even though you don't realize it.

It is the way our ancestors for millions of years learned how to exist and survive before there was formal schooling. Like if you are building a doghouse and you learn about angles and measurements and physical properties, of if you are baking a cake and you learn about temperatures and measurements and chemistry and physical properties of objects. It is called learning holistically.

Not all learning has to be formal and in school. In fact I believe I learned more about Animal Science working at the Uni. of Tennessee Veterinary College than I did when I was an undergraduate at the University of Georgia. Just working with all those animals and listening to what was going on around me I picked up a lot of information about animal care and physiology.

Art

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655267 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/15/2012 12:30 PM
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warrl
Acts 2:
44 "And all who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need."



They banded together out of necessity because the Jewish Theocracy crashed down on anybody that followed "the way"...which is what they were called back then. They could not buy or sell anything once it was found out they had left the Jewish religion. Now that's persecution. Jews don't have the market on getting persecuted. They do it themselves when they have the majority. Nothing special about them or blacks or gays or anybody else.

Anyway....

Once Christianity spread and became more accepted....things normalized.

Nothing socialized about it.

Poeple often use the early Pilgrims as a communist example as well. And warrl, you are correct. 50% starved to death the 1st winter because they found out some of the pilgrims were lazy a-holes that sucked off the harder workers.

The next year, the pilgrims changed their economic philosphy and had an abundant harvest because poeple kept what they produced.

Communism and socialism can go pound sound...along with all the fools that believe in it.

If someone still things communism/socialism still works after the bloody/fiscal nightmares of the 20th and 21st centuries, they are complete idiots.

Hey, I just decscribed the 51% who voted for Obama!

decath

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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655270 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/15/2012 12:37 PM
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Goofy, how come you don't bother mentioning that congress controls the purse strings.

There are 2 reasons Clinton's glorious 90's did so well. Tech revolution and the 94 election that brought in large amounts of Republicans into congress, governerships and every state governemnt. That more than anything kept the dems big gov't spending in check. But go ahead and keep giving your womanizing, rapist pig the credit.

Clinton was a big spender. But he could not do much with Neut on his a$$ all the time.

Reagan had a hostile house and senate most of his 8 years. Not much he could do. It's amazing he did what he could.

Funny how you failed to notice those exceptions but yet point out only the ones that support dem presidents.

decath

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655349 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/15/2012 4:38 PM
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Acts 2:
44 "And all who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need."

"They banded together out of necessity because the Jewish Theocracy crashed down on anybody that followed "the way"...which is what they were called back then." - decath

-------------------------

It was just another expression of that oneness and connectedness thing about heaven that Jesus prayed about in the Garden. The new testament is full of references to it. For instance, "neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female," and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," and "you reap what you sow," and the parable about everyone getting paid the same thing at the end of the day.

It all parallels the holographic principle, oneness and connectedness, etc. "all things in common."

Art

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Author: Knighted Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655389 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/15/2012 8:25 PM
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Goofy, how come you don't bother mentioning that congress controls the purse strings.

The goofmeister is long gone. He does his typical drive-by, spouting drivel, then never returns to read any responses or rebuttals. In his little world, everything he says is gospel, so there is no reason for him to return.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655431 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/16/2012 6:14 AM
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Goofy, how come you don't bother mentioning that congress controls the purse strings.

The goofmeister is long gone. He does his typical drive-by, spouting drivel, then never returns to read any responses or rebuttals. In his little world, everything he says is gospel, so there is no reason for him to return.

_______________________

Oh a chance to make fun of Goofy, just got back from the board that will remain nameless(and logicless) where his high-as-a-kiteness was expounding upon the austerity that Greece had embraced and all the problems it caused.

Anyone reading Goofs' post know he just believes so much that simply is not so, that there really is not there, there.

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Author: andrew61 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655573 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/16/2012 5:37 PM
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magine a deity great enough to create a Universe based upon knowable and discoverable set of logical rules. A Universe that runs for billions of years without direct "personal" intervention.

Imagine a deity great enough to create a system of rule whereby life can spawn spontaneously and evolve to the point of developing consciousness, freewill, and empathy.

I do not understand how anyone capable of believing such a powerful, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent deity could exist AND require obeisance from the beings it has spawned on penalty of eternal torture.

I mean, I am no where near as powerful as that and if people in my neighborhood do not think I'm a great guy, I do not wish eternal damnation upon them. I care even less about what sub-Saharan tribal Africans might think of me.

According to you, this particular powerful deity condemns those who have not even heard of him to unimaginable tortures for all eternity simply because they haven't had the opportunity to even decide about him. What kind of sadistic, brutal, spiteful deity are you worshiping?

I personally can't reconcile the properties of a deity powerful enough to setup this Universe with a being as petty as some Christians think he might be. I just can't imagine the powerful God mentioned above caring one whit about the personal beliefs of one of the beings he gave free will too.

I wouldn't care and God is supposed to be far more compassionate and loving than me.



Here's a quote I read on Facebook, right after reading this thread:

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it,
or who said it, no matter if I have said it,
unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

--Buddha

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655579 of 726165
Subject: Re: Liberal myths dispelled Date: 11/16/2012 5:55 PM
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Quoted: Imagine a deity great enough to create a Universe based upon knowable and discoverable set of logical rules. A Universe that runs for billions of years without direct "personal" intervention. [...] I wouldn't care and God is supposed to be far more compassionate and loving than me.

I don't spend a single minute imagining what people think or don't think. All I can say to the above poster is, "You'd better hope you're right."

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