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Author: ogrecat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 196929  
Subject: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/1/2003 8:56 PM
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I've been following the Terri Schiavo case.

The pro-life people say that removing a feeding tube leads to a hideous death.

How did god manage to work his will through all those millennia before feeding tubes were invented ~50 years ago?

Where in the bible does it say empty shells must be kept 'alive' no matter the financial and psychological cost?

Terri Schiavo's cerebral cortex is gone, her brain is shrinking, she is not going to get 'better'.

Are all the efforts to keep her 'alive' preventing her from going to heaven?

Where is the 'soul' when someone is brain dead or vegetative or in a coma?
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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102340 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/1/2003 9:08 PM
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The soul leaves the body when the brain dies.

Modernism indeed does inhumane things from time to time, with norms such as:

birth in hospitals
death in hospitals, bankrupting the survivors
bottle feeding
two income families, with baby in child care, or later, latchkey kids
single parents
vegetative states

The pro-life people are not unanimous on this case. I am prolife, with judgement suspended, because I don't know enough of the facts. But prolifers who think the death would be inhumane know nothing about dying.

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Author: Fallout2Queen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102342 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/1/2003 10:42 PM
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Modernism indeed does inhumane things from time to time, with norms such as:

birth in hospitals
death in hospitals, bankrupting the survivors
bottle feeding
two income families, with baby in child care, or later, latchkey kids
single parents
vegetative states


You're seriously whacked if you think giving birth in a hospital is somehow a bad thing.

I would probaly be dead without modern delivery techniques (c-sections).

Have you ever thought about why there are fewer deaths (in this country, anyway) from childbirth than three were 100 years ago? Do you think that better medical care could possibly have anything to do with it?

And I bottle feed, too. :Þ PPPHHHTTTBBBTTTHHHHHH if you have a problem with that. When you're the one crying from the pain of cracked, bleeding nipples (even though you're already on Oxycontin from a c-section), then go ahead and talk about how bad bottle feeding is.





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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102344 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/1/2003 10:59 PM
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You misinterpret.

An ideology of hospitals being the only place to give birth is seriously whacked. It has been a cause of infections, underweight births, needless ceasarians, and cascading bum's rushes of unnecessary procedures.

Bottle feeding in the third world has been a major cause of infant mortality. Bottle feeding in our world has been a cause of many a dental carrie, for one thing, and an orthodontist's delight, for another. If you don't believe me, compare my dental record (bottle fed, looks like a combat zone), and my kids (breast fed, one cavity each on baby teeth, both adult now).

Kat
first son born at paternal grandma's, with midwife, grandma, and me attending
second son born in a hospital in Kenya, but with a midwife, and wife had no medication or procedures
attended my Dad's death at his home

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Author: Gelfson Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102345 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/1/2003 11:07 PM
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ogrecat,

I also have been following the Terry Schiavo case during my cross country treks via the news media, (e.g. Fox, ABC, Family News in Focus, and several other information broadcasters.) And true knowledge is very hard to get and remember from them or the liberal printed papers(e.g The New York Times)

You wrote: "...people say that removing a feeding tube leads to a hideous death." Starvation and dehydration are generally considred to be slightly below bieng burnt alive in a fire, and Strangulation. Most animals and humans will do nearly anything to alleviate the slow deaths that will occur. And yes there have been people rescued from those two historically.(Survivors of the Nazi death camps, come to mind.)

Medical opinion is at this time divided as to whether or not Terry is in a vegatative state or not. Her Cerebal Cortex is still with in her body since no one has removed her brain YET. Is her brain shrinking, again no clear cut evidence. Her husband(and potential murderer)has not permitted any rehabilitation therapy since Terry ended up in the state she is in currently.

The question is in reality should Terry be Euthanized by court order just because her husband is unwilling to pay for his wifes rehabilation.

"Are all the efforts to keep her 'alive' preventing her from going to heaven?" If she is/was a Christian before her death then WHEN SHE DIES, she will go to heaven. Even If she is MURDERED!

"Where is the 'soul' when someone is brain dead or vegetative or in a coma?" For that matter where is the soul to be found when someone is 'brain alive' and not vegatative (only a couch potato) and not in a comma?

From the little that I've caught on TV and and published photographs of Terry is is alive. Her mental abilities appear to be in the non-verbal age catagories. But she is far from being a vegetable.

Miracles can and do happen. I keep praying that one will occur for Terry.

Gelfson


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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102353 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/2/2003 9:35 AM
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Another thing. I have severe allergies. My wife has moderate allergies. Our kids have near-zero allergies.

The older son had colic all the time. We didn't find the key to the problem until we started travelling and my wife went back to her normal cow's milk intake of a half cup a day on cereal. The colic stopped.

You see, my wife had been coached by midwife and pediatriation to have 3-4 glasses of milk a day.

I also wonder if studies have ever been done on the social effects of a husband being present at his kids' births, and Mom staying at home breast feeding until the child is weaned.

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Author: Sensormatic Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102357 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/2/2003 10:34 AM
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A woman giving birth is the most beautiful thing. She is sacrificing herself on ALL levels to give and nuture life. As a man, I have NO authority on how my wife chooses to use her body while healing and breast feeding the baby.

(3 kids and hoping for at least one more - my DW has to agree) ;-)

Sensormatic

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102359 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/2/2003 12:09 PM
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Starvation and dehydration are generally considred to be slightly below bieng burnt alive in a fire, and Strangulation.

from Hospice of the BlueGrass Newsletter, fall 1990:

<snip>

"Many studies have been done comparing the comfort of patients who choose not to have intravenous fluids and tube feeding and those who chose to have them.

Both experience and studies show that dehydration caused by decreased or no oral intake of fluids, does not cause discomfort if care is given to prevent dryness of the mouth. Some patients reported feeling euphoric or an increased sense of well-being. The drowsiness caused by dehydration may itself be beneficial.

Dehydration may actually increase comfort by reducing gastric secretions which cause nausea and vomiting. Hospice team members know from their own experience that suctioning to eliminate the buildup of fluid in the lungs is unnecessary for dying patients who are not receiving intravenous fluids or tube feedings. The placement of intravenous needles and the need to family members to manage and monitor intravenous fluids can create stress and discomfort for both patient and family. IT IS NECESSARY TO WEIGH THE QUALITY OF LIFE AGAINST THE QUANTITY OF LIFE.....

The body's ability to digest and use food is changed in the later stages of terminal illness. Liquid supplements of food through tubes in the nose or directly into th stomach cannot be expected to result in weight gain or to significantly lengthen life. These patients continue to lose weight and often develop problems which created discomfort such as nausea, vomiting, diarrhea or gastric distention.....

Two essential parts of the Hospice philosophy are the belief that death is a natural process and that the patient and family have the right to make choices regarding care. Hospice is founded on the belief that the body adapts as a disease progresses and death approaches, and that these adaptive processes should not be interfered with unless there is clear evidence that benefits to the patient will outweigh any discomfort. But the ultimate decision is the patient's and family's.


Or should be.


Her Cerebal Cortex is still with in her body since no one has removed her brain YET.

Her Cerebral Cortex is dead.

From the little that I've caught on TV and and published photographs of Terry is is alive. Her mental abilities appear to be in the non-verbal age catagories. But she is far from being a vegetable.

From what the doctors say, she has no mental abilities. There are merely some reflexes left, but no consciousness at all, and no chance of their every being one again.
The lights are on, but there's nobody home.

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Author: Gelfson Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102361 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/2/2003 1:41 PM
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AdvocatusDiaboli, you pontificate: "IT IS NECESSARY TO WEIGH THE QUALITY OF LIFE AGAINST THE QUANTITY OF LIFE....."

In a word "Bull!"

Then you write(quote) "...death is a natural process and that the patient and family have the right to make choices regarding care."

This may or may not be true but in most states the decision must be in writing and legaly certified.(i.e. Living will, DNR, and power of Attorney) This is NOT present. Her "husband," who has been accused of causing Terry's current condition, is of dubious validity because of the accusations. Her parents believe that she would choose to continue living.

"Her Cerebral Cortex is dead."

If that were true then she would be brain dead and would not meet at least one of the requirements for pulling the plug. Autonomic responses would cease in a matter of hours. Not days or weeks later.

"From what the doctors say..."

Again it depends on which Doctor you wish to listen to. The ones that are pro-euthanazia, or those that are anti-murder.

Even her appointed "guardian" appears to be pro-euthanazia.


I don't have the answers to this true Quagmire of ethics, but I do believe that Terry's parents position should be given a try. Her "husband" never allowed a try at rehabilitation, from the little I've been able to ascertain.

Gelfson


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Author: ogrecat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102367 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/2/2003 4:09 PM
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"Her Cerebral Cortex is dead."

If that were true then she would be brain dead and would not meet at least one of the requirements for pulling the plug. Autonomic responses would cease in a matter of hours. Not days or weeks later.

Her brain stem is not dead.

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Author: dianakalt Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102368 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/2/2003 4:27 PM
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Her Cerebal Cortex is still with in her body since no one has removed her brain YET.

Her Cerebral Cortex is dead.

Wow, AD! I had no idea you were so intimately familiar with this case? When did you do your examination of Ms. Schiavo? Also, where did you get your MD and do your training in neurology?

</sarcasm>

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102370 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/2/2003 5:38 PM
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Since I work at a "women's and children's hospital", I'll comment.

It has been a cause of infections,...

As long as you follow sterile technique and use sterile instruments, it doesn't matter where you deliver. However, I doubt the ability of acquiring properly sterilized insturments outside of a hospital.

underweight births,...

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Underweight births are cause by poor prenatal care or some other disease process. The most common cause is maternal smoking. The ability to deliver a live underweight child at a hospital is due to the precense of specialists and technology. Or would you rather have an underweight still born?

needless ceasarians,...

Depends from which end of the telescope you're looking at things. There are many reasons for a ceasarian section, usually fetal distress or inadequate pelvis. True, you may be able to deliver vaginally a child with fetal distress, but what injuries have you caused? Usually they show fetal distress because of inadequate blood supply, typically from a "nuchal cord" (umbilical cord wrapped around the neck). This can lead to asphyxia and brain damage. Inadequate pelvis, eventually one would labor for untold amount of hours, leading infection, and potentially death of both the mother and unborn infant. Why do you think one of the leading causing of death in women was child birth until this past century?

I will admit, some physicians will do a c-section sooner than others do to threat of litigation. After all, each baby is supposed to be perfect! If not, it is the doctors fault!

JLC



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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102379 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/2/2003 10:52 PM
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As long as you follow sterile technique and use sterile instruments, it doesn't matter where you deliver. However, I doubt the ability of acquiring properly sterilized insturments outside of a hospital.

Hospitals may be more sterile, but homes are more clean, in that the latter has fewer hostile pathogens for which antibodies are not contained in the mother's milk. A midwife is perfectly capable of setting up a sterile area in a home to sew up a tear.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Underweight births are cause by poor prenatal care or some other disease process. The most common cause is maternal smoking. The ability to deliver a live underweight child at a hospital is due to the precense of specialists and technology. Or would you rather have an underweight still born?

I'm talking about underweight births occurring because of the practice of defensive medicine.

I will admit, some physicians will do a c-section sooner than others do to threat of litigation. After all, each baby is supposed to be perfect! If not, it is the doctors fault!

Bingo! And home-delivery midwives are careful to screen patients for people who will head for the hospital when she makes the call.

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Author: Fallout2Queen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102386 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/3/2003 6:53 AM
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Hospitals may be more sterile, but homes are more clean, in that the latter has fewer hostile pathogens for which antibodies are not contained in the mother's milk. A midwife is perfectly capable of setting up a sterile area in a home to sew up a tear.


The baby will miss out on the monitoring provided by hospital personnell. It was a nurse doing one of the routine vital sign checks that caught that my daughter's heart didn't sound quite right. Her pediatrician confirmed it and we took her to a pediatric cardiologist on the way home from he hospital. The hole closed up on it's own and she's fine, but I doubt her condition would've been noticed at home.



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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102387 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/3/2003 9:06 AM
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The baby will miss out on the monitoring provided by hospital personnell. It was a nurse doing one of the routine vital sign checks that caught that my daughter's heart didn't sound quite right. Her pediatrician confirmed it and we took her to a pediatric cardiologist on the way home from he hospital. The hole closed up on it's own and she's fine, but I doubt her condition would've been noticed at home.

20 years ago when we had ours someone sure would have. The pediatrition made a house call the day after the birth. The midwife checked the baby over at birth and again at a follow-up office visit.

Babies normally don't need electronic monitoring, if that's what you mean. There is probably more risk to his staying in the hospital with a monitor, from infections, than from his staying at home with check outs by stethoscope, though both risks are rather small.


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Author: rehowes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102395 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/3/2003 10:51 AM
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It was a nurse doing one of the routine vital sign checks that caught that my daughter's heart didn't sound quite right.

When DW was in labor with our fifth child the nurse noticed that whenever she adjusted the fetal monitor she moved it UP. She told the doctor and he told then to check her more frequently. Shortly thereafter the fetal heartbeat started to slow down with every contraction. The doctor called for a portable ultrasound and they discovered a prolapsed cord.

They ended up doing a ceasarian.

The combination of human monitoring, with both doctors and nurses there, fetal monitoring, portable ultrasounds, and a surgical team and facilities prevented the complication from becoming an emergency.

Randall

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Author: Fallout2Queen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102397 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/3/2003 11:29 AM
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Babies normally don't need electronic monitoring, if that's what you mean.

I was referring to a periodic check of heartbeat with a stethoscope, taking temperature, pulse, etc.


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Author: jrdown Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102405 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/3/2003 2:18 PM
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JLC ~

I doubt the ability of acquiring properly sterilized insturments outside of a hospital.

Private practice midwives do acquire properly sterilized instruments the same place that hospitals get them. We have catalogues, account numbers and purchase orders.

Underweight births are cause by poor prenatal care or some other disease process. The most common cause is maternal smoking.

Yes, smoking can be very bad for the infant as can a poor diet. At times there are diseases but usually it is what you put in your mouth.

Depends from which end of the telescope you're looking at things. There are many reasons for a ceasarian section, usually fetal distress or inadequate pelvis.

True, but there are times when a change in labor position (for oxygen flow) makes all the difference in the world. Most women have an adequate pelvis. A change in the birthing position can do wonders for that as well. Not every woman does well in the typical hospital position of birthing against gravity.

My first OB told me I had an inadequate pelvis and would never be able to birth a child over 7 pounds. I went on the vaginally birth three more that were over 10 pounds.

Why do you think one of the leading causing of death in women was child birth until this past century?

The leading cause of death was infection due to the doctors not washing their hands. They'd leave a person who had died and then just attend a birthing woman thereby transfering the bacteria and more associated with dead bodies.

Unfortunately a lot of the doctors didn't know about cleanliness and some thought they were above needing to use sterile precautions.

Most of the world's population doesn't birth in a hospital and, if good nutrition is available, have good outcomes. There are many countries who have a much better infant mortality rate than the United States.


Robyn





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Author: jrdown Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102406 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/3/2003 2:25 PM
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The baby will miss out on the monitoring provided by hospital personnell. It was a nurse doing one of the routine vital sign checks that caught that my daughter's heart didn't sound quite right. Her pediatrician confirmed it and we took her to a pediatric cardiologist on the way home from he hospital. The hole closed up on it's own and she's fine, but I doubt her condition would've been noticed at home.

The baby doesn't miss out on monitoring. Neither does the mother. In fact, my midwife was the one that told me that my #2 daughter had a heart murmur.

Modern day instruments are used by midwives and they can refer a patient to a doctor for specialized treatment.


Robyn

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102408 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/3/2003 2:36 PM
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We were in a Kenya hospital for our second (the only place where we could find a midife). Wife was having a little trouble getting to full dialation, and the head (British) midwife kept mumbling that they'd have to vacuum extract. Wife says, "Let's do our thing [from the first birth]."

The American midwife there whisper's, "Go for it!" while the head midwife's back is turned. So I get up behind her on the birthing table, wedge my back against the wall, and push her up to a squat. One small push and...

American midwfe says, "It's crowning." Moments later #2 is born.

...

British midwife sniffs, "Second degree tear!"

American midwife in an aside, "Yes it was second degree. But just by a nick."

...

Later we hear from the American, "...And she said, I have never had a MAN on a birthing table before!"

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Author: jrdown Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102409 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/3/2003 3:04 PM
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My 2nd quickest birth was on my hands and knees in our bedroom. My darling husband was my "midwife" and Becca was immediately placed in some bath towels we pulled from the cabinet.

A lovely birth with me laboring in the tub.


Robyn

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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102410 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/3/2003 3:14 PM
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That Kenya experience was something else. We've even got a Daniel and the king's food story.

Being in the expatriate's private ward, my wife was getting British food (nuked to death, out of cans), and it was giving her indigestion. So she asked for the fresh veggies and beans the nationals were getting. Disgusted, the Brits complied, and all went better.

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102419 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/3/2003 7:20 PM
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I'm talking about underweight births occurring because of the practice of defensive medicine.

I've never seen that happen, and I'm at the busiest hospital in town.

I will admit, some physicians will do a c-section sooner than others do to threat of litigation. After all, each baby is supposed to be perfect! If not, it is the doctors fault!

Bingo! And home-delivery midwives are careful to screen patients for people who will head for the hospital when she makes the call.


By that time, it may be too late.

JLC


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Author: beckyz51 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102447 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/4/2003 5:25 PM
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And I bottle feed, too. :Þ PPPHHHTTTBBBTTTHHHHHH if you have a problem with that. When you're the one crying from the pain of cracked, bleeding nipples (even though you're already on Oxycontin from a c-section), then go ahead and talk about how bad bottle feeding is.

OWIE!!!!!! You TELL 'em! I had to bottle feed my last two babies for a totally different reason--PBB's. I asked the Doc what he would do and he said at least the formula wouldn't have it. I sure wish there was a test I could have gotten. But, no insurance.

Grandpa Vander Velde always told the story about a neighbor lady having a child the same time as he was born. His mom had no milk! So, the neighbor lady nursed them both! They must have made nipples tougher back then?? What a wonderful thing to do! And a neighbor I had said a goat saved her son's life. He was allergic to everything else! They had a FUNERAL for that old goat! I would too!

Barb is nursing. So far so good. But she had an emergency c-section. Her Doc had to go somewhere for 6 weeks and when he called to say he was coming back he asked how Barb did. She was still waiting! He hopped a plane and delivered it a few hours later. With all the testing and measuring they do these days, it is amazing they couldn't figure out the baby was too BIG!! Thank you JESUS for c-sections! No one in our family has ever had one. Till now. I have PICTURES!!!

If you are like me, Fran, you don't appreciate men's comments on things they have no clue about and never will??? I suppose he could get his next root canal without pain killers-----or surgery with only whiskey? No thanks. But smartie pants should. Don't you think? :)

Becky--praying for you in ALL ways


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Author: beckyz51 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102448 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/4/2003 5:35 PM
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As a man, I have NO authority on how my wife chooses to use her body while healing and breast feeding the baby.


(((((((((((((((((((((((HUG!)))))))))))))))))))))))))


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Author: andryia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102449 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/4/2003 5:49 PM
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Hi Becky!! Glad to see you're back. I've been praying for Barb and wondering how everything was going. Sounds like she and the baby are doing OK. Any baby pics?

Andrea

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Author: Fallout2Queen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102450 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/4/2003 6:02 PM
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Barb is nursing. So far so good. But she had an emergency c-section.

Hope she's recovering well. My recovery from my second one was a lot easier than from the first one.



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Author: beckyz51 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102453 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/4/2003 8:05 PM
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Hi Becky!! Glad to see you're back. I've been praying for Barb and wondering how everything was going. Sounds like she and the baby are doing OK. Any baby pics?


Howdy!

I'm off 'nursing duty'!!!! Dave had a double hernia surgery and was helpless for a week. Thank GOD for the strength He gave me! Dave said I did good. But it was strictly what HAD to be done. He is back to work now and doing fine. It was an all of a sudden thing. Not emergency surgery--but the day he found out, he had a lay-off and wanted to us that time--so it was off to the hospital and then back home for healing.

Barb is fine NOW! She had a world of problems for the first couple months.

Boy! Do I have pictures!!! Marvin is great about that!! I sent them to all you guys in my address book--but lots didn't seem to make it.
Send me an e-mail?? I'll try again. Same for anyone else! :)

Becky--back to 'normal' *LOL*

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Author: beckyz51 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102454 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/4/2003 8:21 PM
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Hope she's recovering well. My recovery from my second one was a lot easier than from the first one.


She will be happy to hear that. She got an infection this time--then slid into a depression. She never tells me anything until it's over. Dave told me about it!

She was relieved to have the c-section because she knew SOMETHING was very wrong. The Baby (Payton AKA Pe-Pe)had turned and gone down as far as she could--then just waited. Isn't that strange? Barb talked to her by name from the time she was conceived--it is like Payton didn't want to cause any trouble. So, she just waited patiently for two weeks for someone to come and get her!
Barb has changed into the most thankful, happy person! I've seen alot of great mom's--but this is different. Barb is just caught up in the wonder of it all. I've never seen a baby change a personality like this. It is a wonderful thing. She even reached out to Marvin's ex during her 'depression' and she drove right over with a book and prayed with her! Peyton has slept 8 hours a night ever since. And God has sent a mother-in-law like me to boot! I'd be jealous if I wasn't so happy.

Becky--did you get the pics?


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Author: beckyz51 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102455 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/4/2003 8:57 PM
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Again it depends on which Doctor you wish to listen to. The ones that are pro-euthanazia, or those that are anti-murder.


Hi,

That is the problem these days. You ask a question, expecting an honest answer, then you get info mixed in with 'whoever's' world-view. I don't mind that they have one, or even that it differs from mine--but I DO mind being given only THEIR world view. It isn't a complete answer! When I hear, "My view.........." then "but, others feel...." I feel like I may be getting an honest answer.

A guy was on C-Span talking about this mess and said he was glad it was getting some thought again. But his big point was that these choices are only for people with money or insurance. If you have neither, there is no choice. Unless someone can and will take you home, you die. They aren't going to keep you in the hospital for 10 years while you argue over what to do. That is what he feels is the thing to be aware of. And with 40+ million people without insurance, it is a creepy thought.

Dave told me he talked to his dad about this once and he said to let him die. Dave, to my surprise, said that he'd take off the machines, but he wasn't going to quit feeding him. To Dave, that is basic human needs. And the gal in Florida seems to be doing OK for 10 years with a feeding tube? Seems to me she proves everyday she is alive that she wants to be. We used to argue over pulling plugs--now if that doesn't work--we quit feeding? I'm not able to go to that extreme. I didn't even KNOW you could legally quit feeding. Our 'ethics' IMO seem to change with the wind. Especially if money is involved. I'm thankful there is a God who knows the answers. I have to hope He is my influence rather than all those around me giving advice if a time like this should come.

Becky---liking your opinions!

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Author: beckyz51 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102456 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/4/2003 9:10 PM
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inadequate pelvis


JLC,

I have to object to this term!! The baby is close to 11 lbs. Barb is barely over 5 ft tall and she has an inadequate pelvis? No doubt a 'man' came up with this term? :)
Barb's pelvis is 'very' adequate! <mumble, mumble>

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102466 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/5/2003 10:57 AM
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inadequate pelvis


JLC,

I have to object to this term!! The baby is close to 11 lbs. Barb is barely over 5 ft tall and she has an inadequate pelvis? No doubt a 'man' came up with this term? :)
Barb's pelvis is 'very' adequate! <mumble, mumble>


I'll have to review my OB, but IIRC, there are four pelvic types: ovoid, gynecoid, android, and something else. Usually, all but the android don't have problems delivering. However, it all comes down to the pelvic opening vs. the size of the baby. Get a small woman, with a large enough baby, and even a gynecoid pelvis (the most favorable) could have problems. It could be the equivalant of trying to put an egg in a ketchup bottle. With some manuevering and tricks, you might get it done. On the other hand, you could wind up with a cracked egg.

JLC



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Author: ogrecat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102472 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/5/2003 12:47 PM
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We used to argue over pulling plugs--now if that doesn't work--we quit feeding? I'm not able to go to that extreme. I didn't even KNOW you could legally quit feeding. Our 'ethics' IMO seem to change with the wind.

Do you believe feeding tubes should always be used and never removed? Even if the person concerned has stated and written that they don't want them?

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Author: beckyz51 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102567 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/7/2003 10:36 AM
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Do you believe feeding tubes should always be used and never removed? Even if the person concerned has stated and written that they don't want them?


Hi Cat,

No, I don't think so. This can't be easy, EVER--it should be case by case and the person above should have their wishes carried out. The question is WHEN? What if there IS a decent chance that they could come out of it? Some testing being done on a new procedure that is working half the time? Does this person SERIOUSLY want feeding stopped if there is a chance for life? This all needs to be very clear. I'm assuming an Attorney would know the questions to ask so there would be no grey area for a loved one to worry about forever.

Becky



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Author: beckyz51 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 102592 of 196929
Subject: Re: life & death & feeding tubes Date: 11/9/2003 2:39 PM
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I'll have to review my OB, but IIRC, there are four pelvic types

Yada, Yada, Yada!

I was just Joshing! But thanks for the info. I had no idea there were 4 types of pelvis'--- OR that they had names. Amazing.

Sure glad the 'egg' didn't crack! Pe-Pe's head got carried away!!

Your sister,
Becky

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