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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 744889  
Subject: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/16/2014 9:27 PM
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http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2014/06/ipab-obamacares-unc...

Last week, a three-judge panel in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco heard arguments about the Independent Payment Advisory Board, or IPAB, a 15-member panel created by the Affordable Care Act and empowered to make all kinds of decisions regarding health coverage for Americans. The board’s powers are significant, and some say completely unconstitutional, because language in the ACA frees the board from any kind of congressional or judicial oversight.
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What an idiot huh? It's not a "death panel", it's an unelected board that can make life or death decisions without any oversight.
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Author: justacog Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731467 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/16/2014 10:30 PM
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What an idiot huh? It's not a "death panel", it's an unelected board that can make life or death decisions without any oversight.

To be fair, it is more like a "remove live sustaining care panel." In their mind, whether you then die is your own fault.

justacog

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Author: jerryab2 Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731469 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/16/2014 11:06 PM
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What an idiot huh? It's not a "death panel", it's an unelected board that can make life or death decisions without any oversight.

There were no complaints by conservatives when such a panel killed 227+ Alaskans while Palin was in office. Mandatory Palincare for conservatives.

http://www.adn.com/2009/07/14/864670/troubled-alaska-health-...

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731471 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/16/2014 11:58 PM
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From the cited article:

One person waiting for her assessment is 80-year-old Esteen Knights-Thomas, who has been at Providence Extended Care most of the last month. […] Knights-Thomas said Providence is very nice, but "I would rather be at home with somebody helping me."

For one, she'd like to eat what she wants. "Here you can't do that. You have to eat what they give you," said Knights-Thomas, who also is blind in one eye. Her daughter La Verne Jones, 60, can't provide the care herself. She can barely get around, suffers from a rare eye disease, and is overdue for a hip replacement. She was approved for personal care services before the moratorium, but that help can't extend to her mother. […]

Another sign of trouble for the feds: eight lawsuits against the state division. Most were brought by the Northern Justice Project, a private civil rights law firm that focuses on representing low- and middle-income Alaskans in lawsuits against the State. [This itself is suspicious and the claims likely specious.]

"I think the lawsuits reflect that these two programs are and have been run incompetently for some time," claims James J. Davis, one of the partners and founders of the Northern Justice Project.

The common thread in the suits is that seniors and disabled Alaskans aren't getting the services they are entitled to under the law, Davis said. In one big win, the state Supreme Court ruled last year that the state had improperly cut off or reduced services to more than 1,000 needy people. Davis, the attorney who has brought many of the suits, said he doesn't believe people are dying because of poor quality care or abuse. While the state doesn't allow as many hours of care as people need, he said, the care itself is good. The multitude of private contractors makes the field competitive, and clients can switch providers if they aren't satisfied, he said.

***

Of course, our resident librul ass-kisser fails to report the outcome of the investigation and/or the resulting lawsuits by a librul lawyer.

Krone v. State, Dept. of Health & Social Services (12/31/2009)

Class representatives prevailed in a class action suit concerning state constitutional rights.

FACTS AND PROCEEDINGS

Alaska's Medicaid Home and Community-Based Services Waiver Program provides long-term health care services to individuals in their homes or communities as an alternative to nursing home placement. In 2004 the Department of Health and Social Services (DHSS) changed the way it determined eligibility for the Program. Shortly thereafter, it began terminating newly ineligible participants from the Program. In August 2005 the Northern Justice Project, representing putative class representatives pro bono, brought suit against DHSS on behalf of disabled, low-income individuals recently terminated from the Program. The class representatives alleged that DHSS had violated the Program recipients' state and federal constitutional due process rights by terminating them from the Program for medical ineligibility without first finding that their medical conditions had materially improved. The class representatives did not seek damages, but asked that former benefit recipients be reinstated to the Program [that allegedly is so horrible] and that no additional benefit recipients be terminated from the Program unless their medical conditions had materially improved. […]

Superior Court Judge William F. Morse certified the class in January 2006. The next month DHSS stipulated to an injunction prohibiting termination of benefits until it proved at a full and fair hearing that a recipients medical condition had materially improved since being admitted to the Program. DHSS subsequently restored Program benefits it had already terminated and began developing regulations defining material improvement of medical conditions. In December 2006 the superior court entered final judgment in favor of the class.

Then it became all about money, as the class action lawyers contended they deserved three times the amount of fees normally awarded to pro bono attorneys representing a class. http://touchngo.com/sp/html/sp-6446.htm

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Author: jerryab2 Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731493 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 9:17 AM
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fails to report the outcome of the investigation and/or the resulting lawsuits by a librul lawyer.

The points quoted do NOT contradict the facts stated--227+ Alaskans DIED waiting for healthcare through the state govt (Palincare). We have found the "Death Panel" and it is Palincare. How many conservatives signed up?

The lawsuits were to STOP the Palincare "Death Panel" from killing more people. Or was the conservative plan to kill MORE people more quickly?

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731496 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 9:32 AM
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The points quoted do NOT contradict the facts stated--227+ Alaskans DIED waiting for healthcare through the state govt (Palincare).

Bolding and italics doesn't seem to affect your reading comprehension. I can't make the pertinent points RED, but try again.

One person waiting for her assessment is 80-year-old Esteen Knights-Thomas, who has been at Providence Extended Care most of the last month. […] Knights-Thomas said Providence is very nice, but "I would rather be at home with somebody helping me." […]

The common thread in the suits is that seniors and disabled Alaskans aren't getting the services they are entitled to under the law, Davis said. In one big win, the state Supreme Court ruled last year that the state had improperly cut off or reduced services to more than 1,000 needy people. Davis, the attorney who has brought many of the suits, said he doesn't believe people are dying because of poor quality care or abuse. While the state doesn't allow as many hours of care as people need, he said, the care itself is good.

***

There's no indication whatsoever that the people who died would NOT have died had they received more care. The suit was about, "You can't cut people off UNTIL you determine and document that their condition has improved." No one died WAITING for healthcare through the state government care system.

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Author: jerryab2 Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731502 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 9:43 AM
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There's no indication whatsoever that the people who died would NOT have died had they received more care.

Apparently you have a reading comprehension problem, as this is quoted from the first paragraph of the linked article:

'the state cannot assure the health and well-being of the people they are supposed to serve, a new federal review found.'

http://www.adn.com/2009/07/14/864670/troubled-alaska-health-...

Further in the article:

'A particularly alarming finding concerns deaths of adults in the programs. In one 2 1/2 year stretch, 227 adults already getting services died while waiting for a nurse to reassess their needs. Another 27 died waiting for their initial assessment, to see if they qualified for help.'

Waiting *kills*. And Palincare did nothing but *wait*. Doing nothing is a *killer*. Proof? Go to the ER to get help and get Palincare....

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731504 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 9:54 AM
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In one 2 1/2 year stretch, 227 adults already getting services died while waiting for a nurse to reassess their needs. Another 27 died waiting for their initial assessment, to see if they qualified for help.'

Again, there's no indication they would NOT have died even if they had care.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731505 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 9:57 AM
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It's OK, jerryjibjab…causal relationship is a very difficult concept for some people--mainly libtards--to grasp.

Establishing Cause and Effect

First, you have to be able to show that your cause happened before your effect. Sounds easy, huh? Of course my cause has to happen before the effect. Did you ever hear of an effect happening before its cause?

More at http://www.socialresearchmethods.net/kb/causeeff.php

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Author: hrse Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731530 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 12:02 PM
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Again, there's no indication they would NOT have died even if they had care.


Without a recent assesment, I don't know how you could ever make a determination what would have happened if they got care?

It seems like you are arguing that they all could have been in the end stage of a terminal illness, but if that were true, it should have been marked in their last assessment. Once that would have been done, they would not be eligible for the reassesment that they were placed on the waiting list for.

So yes, you can determine that most of them would have lived if they got the care they needed, beacuse modern medicine can keep most people living.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731532 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 12:16 PM
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It seems like you are arguing that they all could have been in the end stage of a terminal illness.

People do die from natural causes, especially if they're elderly.

So yes, you can determine that most of them would have lived if they got the care they needed, beacuse modern medicine can keep most people living.

Riiight. Like forever.

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Author: justacog Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731537 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 12:47 PM
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It seems like you are arguing that they all could have been in the end stage of a terminal illness.

People do die from natural causes, especially if they're elderly.


I'm guessing there isn't an entry in the 122,000 new diagnostic codes of Obamacare for 'end stage terminal lifespan.' Insurance can't be billed for that.

justacog

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Author: jerryab2 Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731548 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 2:22 PM
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causal relationship is a very difficult concept for some people

First, you have to be able to show that your cause happened before your effect. Sounds easy, huh?

Let's see if a conservative can determine the cause and effect.

A. Various medical and other needs of existing AND new patients were NOT assessed OR re-assessed under Palin.
B. No care plans, or appropriate changes to care plans, were put into effect as a result of that failure under Palin.
C. Patients DIED as a result under Palin.
D. Feds stepped in due to stop the Pallincare Death Panel.

A is the cause of of "NOT B", B is the cause of C, and C is the cause of D.

Why "NOT B"? Because A should cause the creation of care plans OR changes to existing care plans. B was Palin's "killer" move, so most people would want "NOT B" because they do NOT want to die. But Palin set up the Death Panel and killed them--by NOT providing the required care.

Claiming they MIGHT NOT have lived anyone is nonsense when the system had been keeping people alive BEFORE Palincare--but the body count only began to become noticeable to the feds AFTER the Palincare Death Panel began its "Waiting Game". Tell us why YOU did not sign up for it: Palincare !!

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731551 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 3:00 PM
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No wonder you're a fantastically successful corporate turnaround artist.

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731553 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 3:01 PM
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it's an unelected board that can make life or death decisions without any oversight.

Which makes it practically like the underwriters board at any insurance company. Except those decisions are not subject to public review, so I guess it's a little more transparent.

Like your partisan jabs, I suppose.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731554 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 3:13 PM
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Like your partisan jabs, I suppose.

This from the KING of partisan jabs. LOL!

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Author: hrse Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731557 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 3:38 PM
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So yes, you can determine that most of them would have lived if they got the care they needed, beacuse modern medicine can keep most people living.

Riiight. Like forever.


Ah, you got me.

I suspected you were a troll, but this confirms it.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 731559 of 744889
Subject: Re: Man, Was Sarah Palin Ever Wrong Date: 6/17/2014 3:56 PM
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Ah, you got me. I suspected you were a troll, but this confirms it.

Riiight. Because you, a troll, say so. Pfffft!

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