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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 56736  
Subject: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/7/2009 8:20 PM
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This is the most positive "Retire Early" health care reform proposal to date.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/sns-dc-health-senate7,0,1...

The compromise could include an expansion of the Medicare insurance plan that would allow some Americans as young as age 55 to buy into the program, according to lawmakers and others involved in the discussions. That element is an effort to mollify liberal lawmakers who have been demanding that the government set up its own insurance plan, or "public option," to compete with private insurers.

</snip>


intercst
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Author: temsike Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22112 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/7/2009 8:49 PM
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Sign me up!!!

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22114 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/8/2009 1:00 AM
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Oh goody! I can get my free Hoverround and do the Hoverround races.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22115 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/8/2009 1:13 AM
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me too.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22117 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/8/2009 10:38 AM
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It better kick in before 2014...I"ll turn 65 in 2011.......then I'll miss out on the early health insurance bonanza.....


Well, it might take them till then just to get this turkey passed.

NOw, they are debating how many state budgets they will bankrupt by expanding Medicaid even more.....say another 20 states to follow CA and RI and a few others? Making them raise tens of billions in matching funds ....

Of course, Harry Reid, the gal from LA, and MI will be protected with the government picking up the 'entire tab' for them...for 5 ro 10 years. Nevada never suffers while Harry Reid is on the job. MI is going to get bought off, and IL....and of course, LA to get the vote. Maybe one or two other states will be bought off as well - Maine likely. But that still leaves at least half of them headed toward state bankruptcy by 2015.....a year or so after this turkey bill takes effect...

t.

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Author: Edlbym One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22149 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/11/2009 7:02 PM
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Milk and lemon both taste good in tea. But mix them together and it’s a curdled mess. Similarly, the latest Senate health reform compromise combines two appetizing elements — a Medicare expansion and tighter insurance regulations –- to create a noxious brew.

Both the House and Senate versions of reform would turn over hundreds of billions of tax dollars to the same private insurers who’ve proven incapable of controlling costs or giving American families the coverage they need. And these bills would make failure to buy insurers’ defective products a federal offense. Together these measures greatly augment insurers’ financial and, hence, political muscle.

The only concessions wrung out of the insurers for this windfall are modest new regulations on the policies they sell to individuals: insurers will have to accept every applicant; they won’t be allowed charge the sick higher premiums; and they’ll be able to charge older people only two to three times more than the young

Most of these regulations won’t change things for people who get their coverage through an employer, but they’re helpful for the many of the roughly 7 percent of the population who buy their own private insurance.

For insurers, the regulations make the near-elderly who don’t get employer-sponsored coverage into pariahs. On average, they cost insurers far more than twice as much as the near-teens, but they can’t be charged premiums to match their costs.

Now the Senate plans to take some of these high-cost patients off private insurers’ books, and make them Medicare’s problem. Consequently, the costs of this Medicare buy-in will be high — both for patients and for the taxpayers who will subsidize the near-poor starting in 2014.

Meanwhile, younger, healthier and hence more profitable patients will be forced into private insurance. There’s no public option for them, nor for anyone offered employer-sponsored coverage. If you have private insurance and you like it, you can keep it; if you have private insurance and you don’t like it, you still have to keep it.

But even though it’s bad health policy, this new compromise is brilliant politics. For insurers, it offers a hidden subsidy. Meanwhile, it gives the appearance of responding to the vocal and growing legion of single payer supporters who want Medicare for All.

In the end, the Senate compromise, like its House counterpart, will do little to salvage the sinking U.S. health system. Costs will continue to skyrocket, putting coverage more and more out of reach for middle class Americans, and driving the costs of taxpayer-funded subsidies through the roof.

In contrast, a single payer system could save nearly $400 billion annually on health insurers’ overhead and the paperwork they inflict on doctors and hospitals -– savings that would make universal coverage affordable. Medicare for All won’t grow from the Senate compromise, but from its ashes.


http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/medicare-f...

Steffie Woolhandler is a professor of medicine and David Himmelstein is an associate professor of medicine, both at Harvard Medical School. They are co-founders of Physicians for a National Health Program.

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Author: Edlbym One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22153 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/11/2009 7:35 PM
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One commenter, Sarah, on the NYtimes blog writes:


sarah
ny
December 11th, 2009
10:38 am


An eventual shift to "Medicare for all" -- this was what we had been hoping for. But... that's not what's being proposed here. At first we were excited to learn of the proposal to extend Medicare to those aged 55-64. We're 55, and we thought (perhaps selfishly) that we would be saved!

No such luck. Under this proposal, we would still be paying through the nose for health insurance. This "buy-in" would be more expensive than our current, back-breaking premiums. Unbelievable. I must finally agree with those who feel that real health care reform is a lost cause for this Congress. Until for-profit heath insurance is eliminated and a single payer system is created, we will all continue down this bankrupting path.


Scottsdale Jack
Scottsdale, AZ
December 11th, 2009
10:48 am


Anyone who complains about Medicare going broke or this proposal being unaffordable needs to explain to me why/how we can afford $600 billion a year in military spending and over 700 military bases around the world.

ShowMe
Missouri
December 11th, 2009
10:38 am


4 .
ShowMe
Missouri
December 11th, 2009
10:38 am
I think that requiring everyone to pay health insurance companies is not going to improve healthcare in the USA. Even Medicare has been privatized; insurance companies have contracts to administer it.


And near the top this one with some thirty or more recommendations:

GAELG
FLORIDA
December 11th, 2009
10:38 am


All the talk about rising health care costs sounds like the costs are driven by some mystical force. Health costs do not rise; they are raised. The answer to skyrocketing health care costs is to inform the medical/pharmaceutical/legal complex, "You charge too much. This what your services and products are worth, and this is what you will be paid. Period. If this doesn't please you, try going to Europe or Asia or India. They pay your complex even less already."


Amen to that! That could even be said more strongly: "They pay you less..and have higher health outcomes" (longer lives, lower infant mortality etc) than we do here in America..

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22154 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/11/2009 7:44 PM
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<<Now the Senate plans to take some of these high-cost patients off private insurers’ books, and make them Medicare’s problem. Consequently, the costs of this Medicare buy-in will be high — both for patients and for the taxpayers who will subsidize the near-poor starting in 2014.>>



Not only that, but I'm supposing that people will be able to delay buying into a Medicare option until after they get sick. That should torpedo revenues while jacking up costs.


Perhaps I'll be able to dump my $992./month insurance cost and pay much less by joining Medicare should I happen to get sick.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22155 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/11/2009 7:44 PM
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"
December 11th, 2009
10:38 am

All the talk about rising health care costs sounds like the costs are driven by some mystical force. Health costs do not rise; they are raised. The answer to skyrocketing health care costs is to inform the medical/pharmaceutical/legal complex, "You charge too much. This what your services and products are worth, and this is what you will be paid. Period. If this doesn't please you, try going to Europe or Asia or India. They pay your complex even less already."

Amen to that! That could even be said more strongly: "They pay you less..and have higher health outcomes" (longer lives, lower infant mortality etc) than we do here in America..

- - - -


Good...first we shoot all the cocaine, meth, and heroin dealers..who cause the large increase in infant deaths by mothers who give birth to crack babies and the like.....who are usually premature with all sorts of congenital problems, like fried brains.

That also solves the problem of 'fried brains' in meth users and crack users. And the Hollywood elites frying their brains on lines of cocaine..... And the cost associated with that.

Then we can start to compare costs.

In the UK and Canada, you are going to die earlier from most cancers. Matter of fact. They won't even give you the latest cancer fighting drugs..too expensive, sorry.....

It's amazing that with 100 billion or more a year in Medicare fraud, and no one looking out for that, you think that 'the government system' is lower cost? Ya gotta be kidding. Medicare is 60 trillion underfunded out to 2070.

And yes, if you are 55 to 65, you will pay $650/month or more for your Medicare buy it...that's what it will cost to insure you under the 'government plan'. Of course, if you are in decent health, you can get a private policy for 50% less. However, on the 'government plan', the healthy have to subsidize the truly pathetic FAT OBESE slobs, the six pack a day smokers, the coke heads and those who have never brushed their teeth in their lives, or know what vitamins are.

t.




"

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22156 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/11/2009 7:46 PM
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"Perhaps I'll be able to dump my $992./month insurance cost and pay much less by joining Medicare should I happen to get sick."


They are talking about $650/month or so for Medicare buy in in....from 55 to 65.

That's not too bad a deal if you can find a doc to take it.....if you get sick..or want 10 dollar co pays, etc......

Heck, I might even do that for the last 1 1/2 year..but it won't be available until I am 68....dang...

t.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22161 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/11/2009 11:00 PM
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However, on the 'government plan', the healthy have to subsidize the truly pathetic FAT OBESE slobs, the six pack a day smokers, the coke heads and those who have never brushed their teeth in their lives, or know what vitamins are. - tele
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ouch! Tele, what am I going to do with you? I guess I should take some comfort in the fact that one day you will know what it meant and how it felt to be me. You know how people say that right after they died their life flashed before their eyes? Well, guess what? You know what goes along with that? This "Instantly becoming everyone you came in contact with in your entire life (feeling their emotions, thinking their thoughts, living their experiences, learning their motives behind their actions)." ...excerpt from The Life Review
http://near-death.com/experiences/research24.html

It's a holographic universe thing. You reap what you sow. The way you judge others is how you shall be judged. It's all part of that "do unto others as you would have them do unto you.' The way you treat others is how you will be treated. Capisce? And by the way, it doesn't matter if you believe it or not. Belief is irrelevant. Acceptance is irrelevant. Agreement is irrelevant. One day you will know how I felt when I read nasty comments like the one you posted above. You really need to learn how to be compassionate.

Genes Take Charge, and Diets Fall by the Wayside
By GINA KOLATA

"So Dr. Hirsch and his colleagues, including Dr. Rudolph L. Leibel, who is now at Columbia University, repeated the experiment and repeated it again. Every time the result was the same. The weight, so painstakingly lost, came right back. But since this was a research study, the investigators were also measuring metabolic changes, psychiatric conditions, body temperature and pulse. And that led them to a surprising conclusion: fat people who lost large amounts of weight might look like someone who was never fat, but they were very different. In fact, by every metabolic measurement, they seemed like people who were starving.

Before the diet began, the fat subjects’ metabolism was normal — the number of calories burned per square meter of body surface was no different from that of people who had never been fat. But when they lost weight, they were burning as much as 24 percent fewer calories per square meter of their surface area than the calories consumed by those who were naturally thin.

The Rockefeller subjects also had a psychiatric syndrome, called semi-starvation neurosis, which had been noticed before in people of normal weight who had been starved. They dreamed of food, they fantasized about food or about breaking their diet. They were anxious and depressed; some had thoughts of suicide. They secreted food in their rooms. And they binged."


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/health/08fat.html?_r=1&...

Art


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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22162 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/11/2009 11:03 PM
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I'm reposting because I messed up the html code and put more than I wanted in italics and I'm really hoping that tele reads this post. I hope it's not in vain.
------------------------------------------------------
Ouch! Tele, what am I going to do with you? I guess I should take some comfort in the fact that one day you will know what it meant and how it felt to be me. You know how people say that right after they died their life flashed before their eyes?

Well, guess what? You know what goes along with that? This "Instantly becoming everyone you came in contact with in your entire life (feeling their emotions, thinking their thoughts, living their experiences, learning their motives behind their actions)." ...excerpt from The Life Review
http://near-death.com/experiences/research24.html

It's a holographic universe thing. You reap what you sow. The way you judge others is how you shall be judged. It's all part of that "do unto others as you would have them do unto you.' The way you treat others is how you will be treated. Capisce? And by the way, it doesn't matter if you believe it or not. Belief is irrelevant. Acceptance is irrelevant. Agreement is irrelevant. One day you will know how I felt when I read nasty comments like the one you posted above. You really need to learn how to be compassionate.

Genes Take Charge, and Diets Fall by the Wayside
By GINA KOLATA

"So Dr. Hirsch and his colleagues, including Dr. Rudolph L. Leibel, who is now at Columbia University, repeated the experiment and repeated it again. Every time the result was the same. The weight, so painstakingly lost, came right back. But since this was a research study, the investigators were also measuring metabolic changes, psychiatric conditions, body temperature and pulse. And that led them to a surprising conclusion: fat people who lost large amounts of weight might look like someone who was never fat, but they were very different. In fact, by every metabolic measurement, they seemed like people who were starving.

Before the diet began, the fat subjects’ metabolism was normal — the number of calories burned per square meter of body surface was no different from that of people who had never been fat. But when they lost weight, they were burning as much as 24 percent fewer calories per square meter of their surface area than the calories consumed by those who were naturally thin.

The Rockefeller subjects also had a psychiatric syndrome, called semi-starvation neurosis, which had been noticed before in people of normal weight who had been starved. They dreamed of food, they fantasized about food or about breaking their diet. They were anxious and depressed; some had thoughts of suicide. They secreted food in their rooms. And they binged."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/health/08fat.html?_r=1&......

Art

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22163 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/11/2009 11:08 PM
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Well, guess what? You know what goes along with that? This "Instantly becoming everyone you came in contact with in your entire life (feeling their emotions, thinking their thoughts, living their experiences, learning their motives behind their actions)." ...excerpt from The Life Review
http://near-death.com/experiences/research24.html



somehow i find that more believable that some of your other NDE stuff.

and it will definitely be Hell (& deserved)



(>,

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22164 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/11/2009 11:23 PM
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somehow i find that more believable that some of your other NDE stuff.

and it will definitely be Hell (& deserved) - 0x6a74

--------------------

Tele must have asperger's syndrome. He says things that are inappropriate and hurtful and I don't even think he realizes it? I have known him now for for ten years and he has even been to my house and even eaten lunch with me. He knows I am overweight and have fought a losing battle my whole life yet he makes nasty comments about fat people that I find really painful.

I have lost down to my correct weight 5 times in my life and I have never been able to keep the weight off. It's like something snaps in my brain and I go nuts. It's like I could eat the paint off the walls.

I have decided that it's just not worth it to me to spend the rest of my life being hungry just to make people like Tele hungry. Fat bigots. If they don't like me they can stuff it. I just don't care anymore. The only thing I can take some comfort in is that I'm fairly certain (high degree of confidence) that one day they will know what it felt like to be me.

And by the way, the link to the story in the New York times does a good job of explaining how it feels to be me.

Art

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22166 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/11/2009 11:34 PM
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must have asperger's syndrome. He says things that are inappropriate and hurtful and I don't even think he realizes it? I have known him now for for ten years and he has even been to my house and even eaten lunch with me. He knows I am overweight and have fought a losing battle my whole life yet he makes nasty comments about fat people that I find really painful.



/>:


may be he doesn't realize ..just forgets you're here and he Wants to hurt the "libDems"


I have lost down to my correct weight 5 times in my life and I have never been able to keep the weight off. It's like something snaps in my brain and I go nuts. It's like I could eat the paint off the walls.

I have decided that it's just not worth it to me to spend the rest of my life being hungry just to make people like Tele hungry. Fat bigots. If they don't like me they can stuff it. I just don't care anymore.


fwiw .. you should maybe care about your health.. but you're right to not care about the bigots


=

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22170 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 1:30 AM
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Art: Ouch! Tele, what am I going to do with you?

I know you have said you would never consideer having your stomach stapled, but I wonder if Laparoscopy would be less scary? I know two people (including my BIL) who have done this, and it seems to work. They simply can't eat as much, but they still feel full.

Count Uptoten

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22172 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 9:35 AM
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I know you have said you would never consideer having your stomach stapled, but I wonder if Laparoscopy would be less scary? I know two people (including my BIL) who have done this, and it seems to work. They simply can't eat as much, but they still feel full. - Count Uptoten
-----------------------


I have arthritis in my hips and back pretty bad, my right knee bothers me from where I slammed it into a guard rail sliding down an icy stairs, my right shoulder is messed up from trying to do dips in the gym when I was teaching high school, and I have pains in my neck from a car wreck in 1992 - and I'm not convince that losing weight is going to make all my problems in life disappear.

I don't believe for a second "Oh, if I was just thin then everything in my life would be perfect!"

And I could care less what other people think of me. They can just go stuff it.

Plus I have a high degree of confidence that some NDE's are exactly what they purport to be, a visit to some other dimension that our "soul" (for lack of a better term) goes to after the physical body dies; and that I will be reunited with my loved ones that have gone on before me so I'm really not all that afraid of death.

So I prefer to be left alone, but I just get tired of ignorant people like Tele saying judgemental and hateful stuff about fat people. I'm really hoping that one day he will know what it felt like to be me.

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22173 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 9:48 AM
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Plus there is something else I just thought of. Compared to most people, including Tele, I have a pretty good life. I have a beautiful wife that loves me, I live in a decent home, I am surrounded by people that love me, I am close to my family even though they are scattered around the country, I have significant savings in the bank, I have a modest income, I have a cute little rat terrier mixed dog that thinks I'm a god, I drive a fairly new low mileage car, we have everything, TV's, DVD players and recorders, Cable TV, cell phones, etc.

So why do I need to change? Why should I even contemplate changing just so Tele doesn't have to look at me? What the hell business it of his how I look, or what size I am? There have been studies done that show that fat people don't cost the health care system any more than thin people do over the aggregate because they die at a younger age.

I've seen Tele and he's not exactly George Clooney or Brad Pitt so as far as who is more pleasant to look at I'm thinking that he and I are probably about equal. Besides which I figure there is probably just as much chance that Tele will kick the bucket before I do anyway. If the bottom line is who dies first there are no guarantees in life. When your number is up, it's up.

Artie

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Author: temsike Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22176 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 10:53 AM
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tele:
Good...first we shoot all the cocaine, meth, and heroin dealers..who cause the large increase in infant deaths by mothers who give birth to crack babies and the like.....who are usually premature with all sorts of congenital problems, like fried brains.

That also solves the problem of 'fried brains' in meth users and crack users. And the Hollywood elites frying their brains on lines of cocaine..... And the cost associated with that.


Tele. Do you LIE on purpose? Or were you just born that way?

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22177 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 12:08 PM
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<<That also solves the problem of 'fried brains' in meth users and crack users. And the Hollywood elites frying their brains on lines of cocaine..... And the cost associated with that.

Tele. Do you LIE on purpose? Or were you just born that way?
>>


Oh, I think that Hollywood has a drug problem. You just need to count the dead bodies of top level entertainers to document that.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22178 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 1:15 PM
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I think that Hollywood has a drug problem. You just need to count the dead bodies of top level entertainers to document that.

One only needs to read the Topeka Capital-Journal to document that Kansas has a ginormous meth problem. Much worse, IMO, than anything going on in Hollyweird. A few celebrities may garner an inordinate number of headlines, but in cost to society, I suspect the problems with meth and crack are much worse.

Phil
Rule Your Retirement Home Fool

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22180 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 2:36 PM
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Oh, I think that Hollywood has a drug problem. You just need to count the dead bodies of top level entertainers to document that.

Every state and city has a "drug problem." But you hear about it more when it involves "Hollywood."

Authorities continue to find more meth labs and dump sites in Missouri than in any other state _ by far _ despite a new state law that has made it tougher to buy key ingredients.

... No other state was even close, according to the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration. Mississippi had the second-highest number

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1A1-D98JD3G81.html

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Author: Edlbym One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22182 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 3:35 PM
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It's not lying on purpose..it's just the same knee-jerk right-wing reaction and one of a handful of methods used to argue against any social program: somewhere, a few pennies of their money might support someone else's but not their own actions, or someone else who they don't approve of.

Now, this logic only works in certain situations.

It's ok to say you don't want your tax dollars supporting overweight people since you're not overweight,and don't agree with their supposed life choices, same with gay rights, but it's not ok to say, you don't support having a 600-700 BILLION dollar military budget "so why should I have to pay for that with my taxes?" Instead, focus your outrage on smaller amounts that go to social programs.

It's ok to get outraged that your tax dollars are supporting lower income people and that somewhere, at least some of them were not responsible..but we're not allowed to get outraged over welfare for the rich where folks like Warren Buffett (by his own words and no one has won the bet when challenged to disprove him) and other CEOs pay less taxes thanks to the 'welfare for the richest-of-the-rich" tax codes...you're not allowed to get outraged that your tax dollars paid for NHI research that was handed over for free to a company to sell you the drug your tax dollars developed, without any limits to what their profits can be or how extreme their prices can be..

Outrage at your tax dollars supporting other things can only work in one direction, by the subtle and nuanced 'philosophy' of the Right ;-)

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22184 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 4:04 PM
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<<It's ok to get outraged that your tax dollars are supporting lower income people and that somewhere, at least some of them were not responsible..but we're not allowed to get outraged over welfare for the rich where folks like Warren Buffett (by his own words and no one has won the bet when challenged to disprove him) and other CEOs pay less taxes thanks to the 'welfare for the richest-of-the-rich" tax codes...>>



There is quite a large distinction to be made between collecting government subsidies and not paying more taxes than you need to.

Conflating the two is an old liberal con job.

Taxes are a necessary evil, but ethically it still resembles someone putting a gun in your back and taking your wallet. It's money taken from someone by force or the threat of force. That it's legal makes a definite difference but doesn't change the basic nature of the transaction.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22185 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 5:19 PM
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art: "I have lost down to my correct weight 5 times in my life and I have never been able to keep the weight off. It's like something snaps in my brain and I go nuts. It's like I could eat the paint off the walls."

You love food too much Art...you think about bacon and other things 24 hours a day...and when you are not awake you are dreaming of food......

IT's a problem. I battle the bulge.....got to do 'pushaways'.......

Art: "So why do I need to change? Why should I even contemplate changing just so Tele doesn't have to look at me? What the hell business it of his how I look, or what size I am? There have been studies done that show that fat people don't cost the health care system any more than thin people do over the aggregate because they die at a younger age."

Art, you are an interesting person.

It's nothing personal...but if folks need to buy insurance, just like car insurance, if you are 'higher risk' you should expect to pay more.

Folks who drive like maniacs and get into accidents are going to pay more for car insurance than safe drivers.

Folks who have 'health risk factors' (like obesity, smoking, recreational drug use, chewing tobacco) are going to pay more.

People who are 'high risk' for dying don't get cheap health insurance. If you are in a high risk occupation, you pay more. If you have high risk hobbies, like skydiving, professional racing, iron worker on tall buildings, etc, you are going to pay more. If you are seriously ill, you are going to pay more. Why would you think everyone should get the same rate simply because they exist?


I don't see why you think 'everyone' deserves to get car insurance at the same rate. If that is the case, then why should everyone get health insurance at the same rate?

Medicare is based upon having folks that die quickly ( the longevity of folks keeps going up, the start age for Medicare never does)...it is based upon folks having normal weight distribution ....and now, more and more are obese..meaning a lot more serious problems a lot earlier in life.

Many would wind up on Medicare since their problems have caught up with them in their 50s...and they have to quit work since their weight has given them - pick some - diabetes Stage II, bad knees, bad back, leg circulation problems, back problems, heart failure problems, lung problems, some or all of these...plus more.....

Opening up Medicare to 55 and over to those who are 'uninsured' and can't get insurance, period, is like picking the worst of the worst to drive the costs to the sky.

Medicare is already bankrupt and running trillions in the red.


t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22186 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 5:22 PM
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temsike, I take it you enjoy frying your brain on recreational drugs? Is that what you are saying, since you object to my saying we should eliminate drugs that fry brains?

Maybe Tiger did a bit too much?

Now, it seems he's been connected with $10,000 a night 'escorts'...wow..... he partied too hard.....

Those 'Hollywood' type liberal elites.....

Only he got caught.....


t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22187 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 5:29 PM
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"One only needs to read the Topeka Capital-Journal to document that Kansas has a ginormous meth problem. Much worse, IMO, than anything going on in Hollyweird. A few celebrities may garner an inordinate number of headlines, but in cost to society, I suspect the problems with meth and crack are much worse."

A good part of the 'justification' for trying drugs goes right back to Hollywood that glorifies drug use.

You don't see too many movies where the ending is sad, the druggies kill their kids or totally neglect them, spending all their money on drugs......

For six decades, Hollywood glorified smoking. They got paid for promotion of various brands.....if they showed the cig pack, then got XXX dollars more.....and tens of millions of kids emulated them.

Now, the Hollywood and sports elites set the example for youth...drugs....tattoos......infidelity.....'hook ups'......casual sex and more and more and more.....

Never any families in Hollywood films these days...with any values.....

Sad....

Like I said, every meth and crack dealer and everyone who makes meth should be taken out behind the barn, and permanently removed from society.....(after we convict them, of course).....

t.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22188 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 5:32 PM
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edl:"for the rich where folks like Warren Buffett (by his own words and no one has won the bet when challenged to disprove him) and other CEOs pay less taxes thanks to the 'welfare for the richest-of-the-rich" tax codes."

You libs never give up.

Warren Bugget never said that.

He said he pays taxes at a lower rate than his secretary. DUh....He still pays 10,000 times more tax! Dummy!

He pays mostly cap gains tax...on his investment income..which is now 15%.

His secretary might pay 18 or 20% tax on her income - it is 'salary'.

You just don't understand the tax code.

Like libs, you don't seem to be able to understand simple math.

t

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22190 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 11:14 PM
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He pays mostly cap gains tax...on his investment income..which is now 15%.

His secretary might pay 18 or 20% tax on her income - it is 'salary'.


Buffett paid 17.7% on his income last year. His secretary, who earns $60,000 a year, paid 30%. Curiously, you don't find him complaining that he had to pay "more", he's complaining that his percentage is less.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ec...

Now take and add in the flat taxes that both he and the secretary pay: sales taxes, excise taxes, vehicle taxes, and so on, and you'll find that the secretary pays a far higher percentage overall than does the richest man in the world.

That's what he's said. And, of course, he's absolutely right.
 


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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22191 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/12/2009 11:27 PM
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"Now take and add in the flat taxes that both he and the secretary pay: sales taxes, excise taxes, vehicle taxes, and so on, and you'll find that the secretary pays a far higher percentage overall than does the richest man in the world."

And the richest man in the world didn't get there by paying the most amount of taxes either.

You go by the tax code, and pay the least amount you owe.

Of course, you also hire the best tax accountants to minimize your tax take.

And if you are like most Americans, you invest and only take your cap gains when it is appropriate. If you remember Buffet, he buys companies he intends to hold forever. The only time he sells them is when the circumstances that caused him to buy the company have changed.

So, intercst, and me, and tens of millions of other investors BUY AND HOLD - maybe forever (well, decades), and acquire wealth by good investing.

His secretary can do the same...but likely will never get rich because she, like you and me, don't buy companies nor run multi-billion dollar empires. BUffet didn't 'inherit' wealth. Neither did Bill Gates.

I'm sure Buffet and Gates have paid taxes with lots of zeros after them, like tens of millions if not more....while his secretary is never going to pay a million in taxes in her life....unless she invested 15% of her salary in Berkshire Hathaway stock along the way.

I know personally of 3 secretaries who became multi-millionaires at MCI. Were set for life.

Likely did better than a lot of other CEOs whose companies and stock went bust. Thousands of them.

t.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22192 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/13/2009 1:16 AM
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<<Buffett paid 17.7% on his income last year. His secretary, who earns $60,000 a year, paid 30%. Curiously, you don't find him complaining that he had to pay "more", he's complaining that his percentage is less.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ec...



Employees are worthy of their hire, but that's about it.


Buffett has taken large risks with his money, and profited handsomely from it not only for himself, but a lot of other people.

He has helped to create some small but significant part of the wealth of the nation.

He deserves what he has, and he deserves the moderate tax rates he pays. No doubt he pays thousands of times the taxes paid by his secretary.


Sorry if this leaves you pea green with envy, Goofy.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22196 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/14/2009 4:46 PM
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He has helped to create some small but significant part of the wealth of the nation.

He deserves what he has, and he deserves the moderate tax rates he pays.


Which is exactly the opposite of what he says. He isn't modest about his investing prowess, but he's also smart enough to know that a lot of what comes in life is "luck." (He ascribed his first big win to being conceived in the womb of an American white woman.)

He thinks "the moderate tax rate" he pays is a joke. You have people barely making ends meet paying a higher rate than multi-gazillionaires. That's just sick, and Buffett knows it. Pity you don't.

Sorry if this leaves you pea green with envy, Goofy.

Why in heavens name would I be envious? Because he has a lot of money? Well, then I would spend my whole life being envious of lots and lots of other people - and <<newsflash>> I'm not.
 


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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22197 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/14/2009 4:56 PM
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"
He thinks "the moderate tax rate" he pays is a joke. You have people barely making ends meet paying a higher rate than multi-gazillionaires. That's just sick, and Buffett knows it. "

Buffet is certainly free...there is no law against it..and in fact, the government encourages liberals like Buffet to actually do what he talks about.

That is, get out his checkbook and write a check for another 100,000 bucks to the "US Treasury" to help out all those folks on welfare and other programs.


But what he really wants is for YOU to pay higher taxes, not him.

He is free to pay whatever tax rate he wants. He can cut a $100,000 check or a check for $10 million, upping his 'tax rate' at any time.

Does he do it?

Of course not!...he's a lib. He is thinking YOUR money, not his.

t.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22198 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/14/2009 6:10 PM
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Why in heavens name would I be envious? Because he has a lot of money? Well, then I would spend my whole life being envious of lots and lots of other people - and <<newsflash>> I'm not. - Goofyhoofy
---------------------------------


I'll admit that I'm a little bit jealous, but it doesn't consume me. Mostly I think about it when I'm watching the Travel Channel and they are showing those super-yachts that cost like $50 Million dollars. Son of a b!tch! God they are beautiful and I want one!

But I also realize that I'm better off than probably 95% of the rest of the world. But I'd be lying to say that I wouldn't like to be mega-rich. I'll also admit that I buy lottery tickets pretty often. I have tickets ($3.00 worth) to the Powerball jackpot right now and it's at $77 million. Never did claim to be the brightest lightbulb in the pack!

Artie

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22202 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/15/2009 12:54 AM
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I have tickets ($3.00 worth) to the Powerball jackpot right now and it's at $77 million.

Good luck. I hope you win it all.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22203 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/15/2009 2:13 AM
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I have tickets ($3.00 worth) to the Powerball jackpot right now and it's at $77 million.

Good luck. I hope you win it all.



of course ..because of our HIDEOUS tax system, if he wins he'll barely get $50 million.



-b
..... hardly worth the effort

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22204 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/15/2009 5:56 AM
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of course ..because of our HIDEOUS tax system, if he wins he'll barely get $50 million. -b ..... hardly worth the effort
---------------


My understanding is that they take something like 31%? 25% federal taxes and 6% state Income taxes?

I'm hoping I'll find out!

Artie

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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22205 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/15/2009 8:25 AM
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My understanding is that they take something like 31%? 25% federal taxes and 6% state Income taxes?

I'm hoping I'll find out!


Whatever they withhold, it won't be enough. Starting with your gross winning for the year (if you chose the annuity option), make sure that 50% of it, minus the amount withheld for taxes, is available for when you file your return for the year. Then you can pay yourself a refund from that holding place.

Good luck!

Phil
Rule Your Retirement Home Fool

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Author: CountUptoten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22206 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/15/2009 11:34 AM
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I heard the Senate has removed the Medicare buy-in from its version of the health care bill, owing largely to Liebermann.

Guy on the radio says it's just coincidence that all the major health insurance companies have their headquarters in Connecticutt.

Count Uptoten

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22207 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/15/2009 12:09 PM
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because of our HIDEOUS tax system, if he wins he'll barely get $50 million.


I hadn't thought of that. I was thinking that if Art won $77M, it would be so much money that he might want to share with some of his on-line buddies. But with only $50M, he clearly won't have enough to share.

I still wish Art best of luck.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22208 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/15/2009 12:49 PM
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I hadn't thought of that. I was thinking that if Art won $77M, it would be so much money that he might want to share with some of his on-line buddies. But with only $50M, he clearly won't have enough to share.

I still wish Art best of luck. - Salaryguru

--------------------------


Art has a list of about 32 relatives and friends that will have their hands out. I have a brother and 3 sisters and Bonnie has a brother and sister plus 18 nephews and nieces not to mention Bonnie's two close female friends and my gay friend that lives in Albany, New York that is tired of the meat business and is frothing at the mouth to sell his business and get the hell out of upstate New York.

I'm also hoping after sharing with my brother and sisters and in-laws and friends there is something left over for Bonnie and I because I absolutely hate Tennessee in the wintertime. One of the main reasons I play the lottery is because I have this dream of being a snowbird and spending the winters down in Ft. Lauderdale or Miami, Florida. I love South Florida in the wintertime. I know how hot and miserable it is in the Summer but for all of it's miserableness in the summer it's absolutely gorgeous in the winter.

Have I told you how ugly Tennessee is in the winter? It's like 38 degrees outside, the sky is grey, it is the kind of wet-cold that sinks right to your bones, everything is wet and dripping and it's not going to warm up to 70 degrees again till the end of next April, 2010. It looks like a horror movie outside; all the trees look dead and it is dark and wet and slimey and my arthritis in killing me. This is Tennessee from mid November till the Middle of April. The only good thing about it that we don't get a whole lot of snow so there is that.

Oh yeah, Bonnie just got notice from her work that she is being recommended for tenure to the board of trustees where she teaches so it seems I will be spending the rest of my life here in Middle Tennessee. Lucky me!

Artie

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22209 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/15/2009 3:39 PM
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I heard the Senate has removed the Medicare buy-in from its version of the health care bill, owing largely to Liebermann.

Guy on the radio says it's just coincidence that all the major health insurance companies have their headquarters in Connecticutt.



Lieberman's wife is a lobbyist for the drug companies. If he runs for reelection to the Senate in 2012, it will be as a Republican.

intercst

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22210 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/15/2009 3:55 PM
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because of our HIDEOUS tax system, if he wins he'll barely get $50 million.


I hadn't thought of that. I was thinking that if Art won $77M, it would be so much money that he might want to share with some of his on-line buddies. But with only $50M, he clearly won't have enough to share.



either way .. he's going to have Relatives coming out of the woodwork /won't be anything left for his on-line pals


=
... but still wishing him luck

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22211 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/15/2009 3:56 PM
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Art has a list of about 32 relatives and friends that will have their hands out.



that's just the ones you know about.



(>,

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Author: vickifool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22213 of 56736
Subject: Re: Medicare Buy-in for 55-year-olds? Date: 12/15/2009 4:16 PM
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Art has a list of about 32 relatives and friends that will have their hands out

Put them all in your will. Try to spend the money before then.

Vickifool

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