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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1966695  
Subject: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ across na Date: 12/12/2012 10:15 AM
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'Right-to-work victory in Michigan sends ´shock waves´ across nation'

SNIP
"Lansing — With Michigan the latest state to pass a right-to-work law, the national movement has its eyes on the next prize. And that could be one of several other states. "We´ve been active for a long time in a bunch of states where we´d like to see things move forward," said Greg Mourad, vice president of the National Right to Work Committee. "Those include Wisconsin, Missouri, Indiana, Ohio and Kentucky." Michigan became the 24th state on Tuesday to pass laws that prohibit requiring employees to join a union or to pay fees comparable to union dues to be employed."

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121212/POLITICS02/21212...

The people of Michigan now have the ability to choose to belong or not belong to a Union...After the display by Union thugs in Wisconsin and now in Michigan, who would want to belong to a Union?
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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844233 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 10:18 AM
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The people of Michigan now have the ability to choose to belong or not belong to a Union...After the display by Union thugs in Wisconsin and now in Michigan, who would want to belong to a Union?
\___________________\

Most of PA?

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844235 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 10:22 AM
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The people of Michigan now have the ability to choose to belong or not belong to a Union...After the display by Union thugs in Wisconsin and now in Michigan, who would want to belong to a Union?
\___________________\

Most of PA?
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No. Most of the libs on PA aren't willing to work. Is there a retired-non-contributor-benefit-consumers union?

Mark

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844236 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 10:23 AM
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The people of Michigan now have the ability to choose to belong or not belong to a Union...After the display by Union thugs in Wisconsin and now in Michigan, who would want to belong to a Union?
\___________________\

Most of PA?

_________________________

I guess 'thug' does apply...to a number of the PA left...

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844238 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 10:25 AM
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who would want to belong to a Union?
_______________________

Anyone who doesn't want to be judged by the quality of the work they do, but get paid well.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844242 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 10:29 AM
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No. Most of the libs on PA aren't willing to work. Is there a retired-non-contributor-benefit-consumers union?
___________________________________________

Obviously you missed the parking lot scene. I have no idea why you would bring up desire to work and desire to belong to a union.

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844248 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 10:43 AM
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Obviously you missed the parking lot scene. I have no idea why you would bring up desire to work and desire to belong to a union.
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That was my 'desire to be a wise arse' kicking in.

Mark

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844250 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 10:44 AM
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After the display by Union thugs in Wisconsin and now in Michigan, who would want to belong to a Union?

After the display by Corporate thugs, who would want to belong to a corporation?

After the display by Christian thugs, who would want to belong to a Christian religion?

After the display the police thugs, who would want to belong to a police force?

The game could go on and on if the desire is to smear all based on the actions of a few.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844252 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 10:47 AM
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"Most of the libs on PA aren't willing to work."

I'm beginning to think that you don't actually know any 'libs'.

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844259 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 10:58 AM
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"Most of the libs on PA aren't willing to work."

I'm beginning to think that you don't actually know any 'libs'.
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I'm beginning to think that you don't actually.....recognize when I'm just being a wise-arse.

Mark

PS I am a wise-arse most of the time.

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844260 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 11:01 AM
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After the display by Union thugs in Wisconsin and now in Michigan, who would want to belong to a Union?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would have been better to say: "After the display of union run bankrupted organizations (automotive, airlines, hostess, Chicago public schools, etc.) why in the f*$k do unions still have credibility?"

Mark

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844265 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 11:11 AM
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The tug of war continues.

I think it's great that the Big Three can now hire workers for less than most other manufacturing companies. That began in 2007, when the Unions had no other common sense choice.

What's great about the "new" jobs is that workers that work in crap houses like Wal Mart, have a shot at making more than minimum wage. I think it's great that wages are way down, even though car prices have risen. Ford took full advantage of the situation, and marked up prices and loaded up on options in their new cars, as they got rid of older workers and hired new ones for peanuts.

The Dems don't care how high the wages or benefits go. The R's are happy to see people crushed, or forced to accept anything for a job. I fully understand the rational of hiring those that work very hard, and are valuable to a company. No way do I accept the Democratic philosophy of a united worker wage for all, regardless of merit. But then again, I see more people treated like crap nowadays than ever.

At some point, someone has to realize that consumer spending is two thirds of our economy. I can only imagine that autoworkers have far less to spend now than they did the last 2-3 decades. Perhaps Toyota and the other foreign makers will use this opportunity to dramatically lower wages and benefits for their own workers. Many are in Right to Work states, which is really a code name for Right to Not Pay Union Dues. I say they have the right to cut wages by a third, right now. Plenty of people to replace them.

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844267 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 11:13 AM
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why in the f*$k do unions still have credibility?

__________________

They have lots of cash from members dues.

A large percentage of their members are extremely loyal to the leadership and will follow them into any battle, whether it's political or economic.

Look at Michigan and Wisconsin. When did you ever see a protest that size for any State legislation in the past 40 years?

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Author: Vetiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844274 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 11:21 AM
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"Would have been better to say: "After the display of union run bankrupted organizations (automotive, airlines, hostess, Chicago public schools, etc.) why in the f*$k do unions still have credibility?"

Remember Tom Peters, the guy that wrote "In Search of Excelence". I took his course in B school. A couple of things that he said... 1) McKinsey actually funded the research behind the book to find out why so many of their clients had gone bankrupt. 2) What tended to distinguish long term successful companies from those that weren't were how they treat their workers.

One could conclude from this that it is not Union run companies that is the problem, it is MBA run companies, places like Bain taking over and running things into the ground so everyone can get their short term bonus.

As to Unions, Corning, the company, is over 150 years old. At one point there was a strike, there was violence, and someone got killed. Corning, being located in a very small town, everyone knew the person who died. The management decided "never again" and rather than running away from the union, embraced it. The head of the union sits in the R&D reviews. When customers visit they talk with the union independently as well as the management. It is as union a place as you can get. A few years ago, during the telecom bust, Corning almost went bankrupt. It was nothing to do with the union; the company made some unfortunate bets. The union helped them pull through.

In general, companies get the union relationship they deserve. This is not to say that occasionally, someone gets elected to head a union by making unreasonable promises. but if a company goes bankrupt, most times it is general business conditions, sometimes its bad management decisions, rarely does it have anything to do with the union.

B-T-W at the Glassworkers union hall in Corning, they have something of a memorial to the Corning CE during the Eisenhower years. He is also memorialized in the Junior Achievement Business Leaders Hall of Fame.

V.

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844278 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 11:28 AM
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One could conclude from this that it is not Union run companies that is the problem, it is MBA run companies, places like Bain taking over and running things into the ground so everyone can get their short term bonus.
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Oh okay good. No more MBAs in business management. We should have people with GEDs running companies.

Breaking news: Private equity bankrupted the auto industry. No unions involved. Legacy costs were not real. They were fabricated by the Koch brothers.

These are all logical conclusions.

Mark

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Author: jerryab Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844280 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 11:31 AM
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who would want to belong to a Union?
_______________________

Anyone who doesn't want to be judged by the quality of the work they do, but get paid well.


Accurately describes management.

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844283 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 11:41 AM
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Anyone who doesn't want to be judged by the quality of the work they do, but get paid well.

Accurately describes management.
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Yes. Management who often have bonuses based strictly on performance.

Mark

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844302 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 12:04 PM
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Yes. Management who often have bonuses based strictly on performance.

More often, their bonuses bear no relation to their performance.

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Author: schvitzing Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844303 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 12:04 PM
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who would want to belong to a Union?
_______________________

Anyone who doesn't want to be judged by the quality of the work they do, but get paid well.


This is anecdotal, I know, but my best friend from 7th grade through high school has always been a staunch conservative Republican [in all respects except the so-called social issues]. He has also been an active member of one of the strongest unions -- the Airline Pilots Association -- which has seen to it that its members are well-paid, good at their jobs and not subject to safety-slicing working conditions. In 35 years of flying for United [DC-10s], he never so much as dented a fender.

So, use the word 'anyone' with some care. And also, think about the kind of person you might want flying you from here to there. It wouldn't surprise me if you don't think about it at all. If so, then think about why you don't think about it.

Schvitz

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844311 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 12:24 PM
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He has also been an active member of one of the strongest unions -- the Airline Pilots Association -- which has seen to it that its members are well-paid, good at their jobs and not subject to safety-slicing working conditions. In 35 years of flying for United [DC-10s], he never so much as dented a fender.
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Oh ho ho ho really? My dad was a pilot. Flew for Delta. In the end they went bankrupt and his unsustainable pension was slashed and given in a lump sum settlement. If you would like me to give him a call I will gladly get some more information on how the union has nothing to do with preventing 'safety-slicing working conditions'.

Mark

PS My dad is financially set for life. Many of his fellow pilots are not. Why? Unlike his co-workers he saved his money because he had no faith in the ridiculous, fanciful union pension that promised to pay him $95,000 a year to do nothing for three decades. Common sense.

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844313 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 12:27 PM
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Yes. Management who often have bonuses based strictly on performance.

More often, their bonuses bear no relation to their performance.
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I believe you mean 'more publicly'. Of course we hear 4-6 stories a year about guys who failed and got golden parachutes. Often they are investment bankers in Manhattan who are democrats.

Mark

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844314 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 12:29 PM
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Oh ho ho ho really? My dad was a pilot. Flew for Delta. In the end they went bankrupt and his unsustainable pension was slashed and given in a lump sum settlement. If you would like me to give him a call I will gladly get some more information on how the union has nothing to do with preventing 'safety-slicing working conditions'.

Mark
_______________________________

Have you considered introducing your dad to AngelMay?

A 12 percent safe dividend would do wonders for creating a steady income stream from a lump sum distribution!

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844317 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 12:34 PM
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More often, their bonuses bear no relation to their performance.

____________

You'd be surprised. Most people think their boss/supervisor is an idiot and a trained monkey in a diaper can do a better job. They are usually wrong because they don't get what's going on with the business and think they should have that management job.

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844318 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 12:36 PM
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Have you considered introducing your dad to AngelMay?

A 12 percent safe dividend would do wonders for creating a steady income stream from a lump sum distribution!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! How many rec's do I get? I'd use them more but they are generally a pathetic tool used by lefties to artificially pump up the credibility of their pathetic ideas.

Someone posts: "I shouldn't have to pay for my own IUD so I can have unprotected sex with my husband."--->97 rec's

Mark

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Author: Vetiver Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844332 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 1:10 PM
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"Breaking news: Private equity bankrupted the auto industry. No unions involved. Legacy costs were not real. They were fabricated by the Koch brothers.
"


Remember Roger Smith? He was the GM CEO in the 1980's. Of all GM CEOs he was the most famous, mostly for his quote about quality. Faced with the onslaught from Japan, he said something like, "this quality thing will pass." Smith was got famous by that quote and, of course, he has long since departed the scene. However he was and is emblematic of an industry resistant to change. In addition to fighting the unions, Detroit fought the government on safety and mileage.. even to the point where they were resisting government efforts to keep them competitive with mileages that were being achieved by foreign makes.

I directed my comment toward MBAs, I have an MBA myself. In truth I would say that the problem is short sighted or short term oriented managers.

V.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844347 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 1:36 PM
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Riiiight. Has nothing to do with the fact that GMs retiree benefit structure was adding $4,000 to the cost of each car, effectively pricing them out of several volume segments.

I remember Duck's UAW stories around here. My favorite was his having to hire 3 union electricians to move a printer.

Unions are crap because of their wretched excesses. Nothing more.

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Author: Colovion Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844352 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 1:48 PM
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I don't really see why people who are interested in seeing the economy prosper would want one entity (unions) to artifically price labor above market rates. You think some of the "esteemed" MBAs on this board would realize what that does to the labor market.

Will labor costs fall in Michigan? They better! Is that bad? Nope. Why? The real minimum wage is $0.00, as in what people who are unemployed make. Michigan needs jobs. That's an understatement. Michigan MUST HAVE MORE JOBS!

Don't let our cheerfully low (lol!) unemployment numbers fool you, we have a city named "Detroit" where the actual unemployment rate is over 45%! You may have seen some mention in the news that Detroit has a bit of a fiscal problem. I know that correlation doesn't equal causation but there's a fair case to be made that when over 45% of your citizens aren't working they aren't paying property taxes either and that could lead to, say, a fiscal black hole of epic proportions in the city finances.

Michigan also has a rather generous "minimum wage" law (which I find to be ridiculous since, as I stated above, the actual minimum wage is $0.00 but, hey, let's roll with it) meaning that nobody will be paid $0.02 an hour by the Big Three now that Michigan is RTW. You can live quite well in Detroit on even the minimum wage. Houses can be bought for $1 there. Literally! Not that I'd want to live in them but, hey, everyone has to start somewhere you know.

I'm optimistic that this will improve both the standard of living (via far more employment prospects) and the state's fiscal situation (Michigan has been getting better, but we had nowhere to go but up!).

This isn't the only reason I'm optimistic. The Governor made an agreement with Canada to build a new DRIC (Detroit River International Crossing) bridge that will, for the first time, link the Michigan interstate system to the Ontario highway system. Really. Up to now trucks crossing the Ambassador Bridge (a rusty old bucket of bolts itself) had to go through downtown Detroit streets to get to the bridge and exited into a residential neighborhood in Windsor. This is part of the "NAFTA Superhighway" and had nearly ALL of the traffic lights along the entire corridor from Mexico to Canada! It's a ridiculous situation, but the DRIC will change all of that (and, as a bonus Canada is paying for ALL of it in exchange for tolls from the bridge after it's complete!) Snyder has also reformed Michigan's tax code (in ways that progressives and liberals abhor but businesses, which, you know, HIRE PEOPLE, love).

What all this does is take a state that was quite hostile to business interests and turn it into one that is far more attractive. We can only do so much about our weather up here (which I happen to love but some of you wusses say is too cold, whatever) but that doesn't mean we have to shoot ourselves in the foot with terrible business taxes, terrible infrastructure and anti-business unions running the show (and if you don't think guys like Bob King, President of the UAW, are hostile to business just LISTEN to what he says and pretend you were deciding whether or not to move your business here!)

The Business of Michigan is now Business, not pandering. It's about damn time!

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Author: FoolishWaldo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844353 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 1:48 PM
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No. Most of the libs on PA aren't willing to work. Is there a retired-non-contributor-benefit-consumers union?


LOL.

Then there's that cadre of non-retired, lazy, know-it-all whackos and loons who spend virtually their entire "work" day playing on the computer, responding to almost every thread.

Of course their bosses don't, I'm told, object to their doing no work and I can only infer that it's cheaper to let them play than to fix their screw ups.

<<Irony>>
And they object to unions.

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844358 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 1:56 PM
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Then there's that cadre of non-retired, lazy, know-it-all whackos and loons who spend virtually their entire "work" day playing on the computer, responding to almost every thread.
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You might notice that I am only posting in this chatroom for a couple of days, once every couple months or so. I was last here a couple weeks ago but my usual hiatus is two or three months. That's because I only use this chatroom when I am not working and have no other obligations.

Oddly, you are posting in this chatroom every single time I stop by. So either you have the exact same downtime schedule as I do or.......

Mark

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844361 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 2:01 PM
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I don't really see why people who are interested in seeing the economy prosper would want one entity (unions) to artifically price labor above market rates. You think some of the "esteemed" MBAs on this board would realize what that does to the labor market.
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You would also think that someone with an MBA would recognize what an increase in labor supply of 12-20 MILLION illegal immigrants would do to wages.

Mark

PS supply, like supply/demand, like econ 101

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844371 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 2:11 PM
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Really happy for you and Wolverine, C. It's about time Michigan stepped it up and got with the program! With all those unemployed workers, one wonders if a foreign car company might want to actually locate plants up there. Hmmm. Highly skilled workforce. No more union crapola unless they clean up their act...hmmm.

Maybe some of our resident MBAs (who evidently studied economics in Venezuela under some exchange program) might be able to puzzle out the concept of comparative advantage.

Either way, a good day for America is bad for the left.

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844388 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 2:37 PM
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why in the f*$k do unions still have credibility?

A union is a collection of people for a united purpose.

If you're questioning the credibility of the Republican Party, I agree they have no credibility.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844421 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 3:51 PM
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More often, their bonuses bear no relation to their performance.

Depends on what their schtick is

____________

You'd be surprised. Most people think their boss/supervisor is an idiot and a trained monkey in a diaper can do a better job. They are usually wrong because they don't get what's going on with the business and think they should have that management job.

Some of them are and it is usually those middle management types they begrudge those who aren't, especially if they have to solicit to "blue collar" sectors (even the "boss" of that sector).

They get really pissed off when they can't bamboozle the owner to do the work for less than it cost or buy something where they win, you lose. Those types usually also try to cover their rears when they screwup by trying to make it look like they saved their boss money by trying to weasle out of paying what they asked for.

The bigger they are, the worse they are.....

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Author: schvitzing Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844465 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 4:47 PM
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Oh ho ho ho really?

Really. Go ahead, call him. but, read these first:

ASO Plans for Improved Training Programs in 2013

The ALPA Air Safety Organization (ASO) conducted a two-day workshop in ALPA’s Herndon conference center November 6–7 to review the curricula of all ASO-sponsored training courses and prepare for the 2013 training year. Fifteen pilot instructors—representing ALPA’s Safety, Security, and Pilot Assistance disciplines, and Engineering and Air Safety department staff—collaborated in an effort to ensure the quality, efficiency, and integration of all their training events for the coming year. ....

http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/fastread/2012/FastRead_2012...

and this
The Air Line Pilots Association represents more than 66,000 pilots at 43 airlines in the United States and Canada. The association lobbies primarily on aviation safety ...

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000117
...the legislation would advance ALPA’s drive for One Level of Safety for all airline operations by directing the Department of Transportation to apply the Federal Aviation Administration’s flight- and duty-time regulations and minimum rest requirements to all-cargo operations ...http://www.alpa.org/FTDTFightingFatigue/tabid/3370/Default.a...

There's more, and not hard to find. After retiring, my friend was an ALPA rep, dealing with pilot grievances, many of them safety-related.

Unlike his co-workers he saved his money because he had no faith in the ridiculous, fanciful union pension that promised to pay him $95,000 a year to do nothing for three decades.

Good move by your Dad. But, the pension plan wasn't the union's. It was Delta's. On 12/31/04, about a year before it filed for bankruptcy, its liabiities for pensions and post-retirement benefits totaled $6.8bn. Don't try to hang this one on the union.
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/27904/000095014406002...

To their credit, salaries for the top five execs averaged in the low six-figures, reflecting compliance with the need to reduce costs.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/27904/000095014405003...

Schvitz


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Author: decath Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844472 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 5:14 PM
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Bluegrits
The game could go on and on if the desire is to smear all based on the actions of a few.


And the lefties on PA play that game well. I have to wash my eyes after I read the feldercarp on this board.

decath

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Author: LurkerMom Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844480 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 5:40 PM
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Bluegrits
The game could go on and on if the desire is to smear all based on the actions of a few.
-------

And the lefties on PA play that game well. I have to wash my eyes after I read the feldercarp on this board.

decath


________________________________

That is why I keep my asbestos screen saver up when I am at the PA. ;)

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844494 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 6:34 PM
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Most of the libs on PA aren't willing to work.

That's a laugh. It's folks in the BLUE states who earn most of the money and pay most of the taxes, and the folks in the RED states that collect most of the government assistance. Look it up. There have been numerous articles about this recently.

Who's doing the work again??

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844498 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 6:50 PM
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That's a laugh. It's folks in the BLUE states who earn most of the money and pay most of the taxes, and the folks in the RED states that collect most of the government assistance. Look it up. There have been numerous articles about this recently.

Who's doing the work again??


There's a problem with this "analysis". Let's look at blue states Illinois, California, and New York. Know what they all have in common? Large ports and large financial hubs.

liberalism didn't put deep water ports in place and liberalism didn't put Chicago at the end of the major trade corridor to the Midwest. Geography did. liberalism also didn't decide to place major trading and financial centers in those locations either. That sprang up as money sought to co-locate with trade.

Those states are true blue, true. Know why? Those two natural advantages mean they can afford their blue state social model( ...oh, sorry. Maybe they can't.). It also means they'll be home to a lot of high paying jobs by virtue of the NX and trading hog bellies. Lots of duties, taxes and other goodies to collect there not to mention lots of other high paying jobs to be spun out of.

Contrast that to states like Idaho that don't have deep ports nor does have a huge financial center in it.

The point? liberals like to crow about places like Seattle and San Francisco. Well, guess what? Those cities are where they are IN SPITE OF the best attempts of the blue governments there to screw them up. East St. Louis, IL and Detroit, MI are your shining examples of what happens when you combine 1 party idiot rule with the golden goose laying the eggs dropping dead.

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Author: Rightime Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844503 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 7:10 PM
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liberalism didn't put deep water ports in place and liberalism didn't put Chicago at the end of the major trade corridor to the Midwest. Geography did.



Oh Gawd, here we go again. California is successful cuz why, cuz it's next to the ocean. Bhawwaah ha ha

Just like Somalia

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844505 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 7:17 PM
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Oh Gawd, here we go again. California is successful cuz why, cuz it's next to the ocean. Bhawwaah ha ha

Just like Somalia


I wasn't aware that Somalia was a part of the US and had gold in it in the 1840's. Wow, the things you don't learn in school.

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844507 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 7:27 PM
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Oh Gawd, here we go again. California is successful cuz why, cuz it's next to the ocean. Bhawwaah ha ha

Just like Somalia


And Georgia, Florida, Texas, Louisiana, Virginia...

6

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Author: alchook Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844522 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 8:21 PM
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That's a laugh. It's folks in the BLUE states who earn most of the money and pay most of the taxes, and the folks in the RED states that collect most of the government assistance. Look it up. There have been numerous articles about this recently.

Who's doing the work again??


If you're judging industriousness by amount of money earned and amount of taxes paid, it would be Republicans, wouldn't it?

Regardless of what state voted for whom, higher earning individuals clearly preferred Republicans.

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Author: Rightime Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844523 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 8:25 PM
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I wasn't aware that Somalia was a part of the US and had gold in it in the 1840's. Wow, the things you don't learn in school.

-Dupe1

Oh, now it's not entrepreneurs or industry or trickle-down from all the billionaires (of course according to you they've all fled the state.)

NOW it's the gold rush of 1850's that created all the wealth in california... all that gold created a $2 Trillion annual GDP.


Must've been a lot of gold Bhaawwwah Ha Ha Ha

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Author: jerryab Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844524 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 8:40 PM
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Contrast that to states like Idaho that don't have deep ports nor does have a huge financial center in it.

Or MN--with no natural ports or much else. Yet, it is one of the major centers for US exports and medical mfg and development worldwide (Mayo Clinics, etc).

Yet Texas does have ports and so on--plus oil. The ONLY reason Texas is not a desert Alabama is because of oil. Even now, the interior of Texas is becoming a deserted landscape as there is no water. No water - no people. No farming. Just more sand.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844530 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 8:51 PM
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Oh, now it's not entrepreneurs or industry or trickle-down from all the billionaires (of course according to you they've all fled the state.)


Hmm. I've said neither of those things, Commander Strawman.

NOW it's the gold rush of 1850's that created all the wealth in california... all that gold created a $2 Trillion annual GDP.

Wow. You *are* that dumb. Didn't anybody on this board study the notion of land, labor and capital?

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Author: Rightime Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844531 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 8:56 PM
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If you're judging industriousness by amount of money earned and amount of taxes paid, it would be Republicans, wouldn't it?

-alchook


Well, I guess they like to live with Democrats and pay taxes along with democrats:
80% of the super rich live in blue states

http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/18/pf/super_rich/index.htm

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844532 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 8:58 PM
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Hey, look. The top 4 are in NY, CA and IL. As in, states that have large financial centers in them.

Yes. You *are* that dumb.

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Author: Rightime Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844533 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 9:00 PM
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Hey, look. The top 4 are in NY, CA and IL. As in, states that have large financial centers in them.



Just goes to prove that the most industrious people are democrats

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Author: Rightime Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844534 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 9:02 PM
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Hey, look. The top 4 are in NY, CA and IL. As in, states that have large financial centers in them.



But wait... earlier you said it's cuz of the ocean and deep water nearby.


Make Up Your Mind

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844556 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 10:35 PM
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Just goes to prove that the most industrious people are democrats

And that you know absolutely nothing about the country you live in.

Are. That. Dumb.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844557 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/12/2012 10:36 PM
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But wait... earlier you said it's cuz of the ocean and deep water nearby.


Actually I said both things. For a gold star you might even be able to figure out the connection between the two!

Are. That. Dumb.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844581 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/13/2012 6:06 AM
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Bluegrits
The game could go on and on if the desire is to smear all based on the actions of a few.


And the lefties on PA play that game well. I have to wash my eyes after I read the feldercarp on this board.
_______________________________________
Heck the lefties are so damn good at it, they do not even need a few. They just take some stuff out of context and go for it.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844587 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/13/2012 7:11 AM
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No. Most of the libs on PA aren't willing to work.

Well, I suppose I'm not really WILLING to work but my greed makes me do it.
LOL. Seriously. You're nuts.

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844589 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/13/2012 7:22 AM
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liberalism didn't put deep water ports in place and liberalism didn't put Chicago at the end of the major trade corridor to the Midwest. Geography did. liberalism also didn't decide to place major trading and financial centers in those locations either. That sprang up as money sought to co-locate with trade.


Chicago is at the end of a major trade corridor largely due to the EERIE CANAL (cue Goofyhoofy).
The north/south split in regard to infrastructure goes back to pre-civil war times.
The northern states invested large amounts in infrastructure and education, the southern states didn't. Unfortunately, the ideology that the rural life/slavery society had spawned and that rejects government infrastructure and education investments persisted through the civil war and right up to the present day, and so the vast majority of the south never caught up.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844592 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/13/2012 7:45 AM
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The northern states invested large amounts in infrastructure and education, the southern states didn't. Unfortunately, the ideology that the rural life/slavery society had spawned and that rejects government infrastructure and education investments persisted through the civil war and right up to the present day, and so the vast majority of the south never caught up.
___________________

Well now they actually didn't reject it. Those who remained along with the powers at be up North and others such as the Lehman Bros. who moved up there, were behind builing infrastructure that got the raw resources to their markets, but not the local communities markets.

German cowboys from feudal families in Europe, not German immigrants to here, in the west had to hire Texans because they didn't know diddly about what they were doing, but it kept the little spoiled rich boys busy.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844593 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/13/2012 7:59 AM
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Oh, and btw, Advocatus,

Lehman Bros profitably handsomely from slavery so let's quit laying in this on "the goobers" shall we?

The only reason "they gave it up" was to get in "the club"

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1543861...

And they, by far and away weren't the only ones. Give it up.

http://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/an-18th-cen...

You want devisivness to stop then quit perpetuating these myths.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844595 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/13/2012 8:12 AM
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Oh, and also for the record,

Those who want to hold unto to claims of reparations better not look to far back into their own ancestry.

Most, of the human race's ancestors were enslaved at one time or another, often times, by those who "their people" had earlier enslaved.

Still going on today.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844597 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/13/2012 8:26 AM
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The northern states invested large amounts in infrastructure and education, the southern states didn't. Unfortunately, the ideology that the rural life/slavery society had spawned and that rejects government infrastructure and education investments persisted through the civil war and right up to the present day, and so the vast majority of the south never caught up.
___________________

now in all honesty, i did not take a hard look, I just know i was checking Universities in the Northeast recently.

it sure seems like Christian Religions and really rich people did a very nice job of setting up a bunch of Universities. Not a single Ivy covered socialist created place in the lot

I musta missed the really good schools.

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Author: Stonewashed Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844599 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/13/2012 8:35 AM
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it sure seems like Christian Religions and really rich people did a very nice job of setting up a bunch of Universities. Not a single Ivy covered socialist created place in the lot

__________________-

Yes, they did, not to mention hospitals.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844640 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/13/2012 11:10 AM
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Waa, waa, waaa...

Spin it any way you want, the fact remains that the top welfare states are predominantly RED. Yes, there's some blue in there. But the majority of the money goes to the reds. And if you expand it further, the top recipients of federal dollars (beyond just welfare, but including farm subsidies (which is just another form of welfare), defense spending, NASA spending, etc) are also RED.

And of course, since those receiving the most welfare tend to RED, it follows those providing the funds tend to be BLUE.

It's not rocket science.

I find it sadly ironic that the states voting RED because they want government spending cut are the same states that receive most of that spending.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844642 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/13/2012 11:18 AM
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And of course, since those receiving the most welfare tend to RED, it follows those providing the funds tend to be BLUE.

It's not rocket science.

I find it sadly ironic that the states voting RED because they want government spending cut are the same states that receive most of that spending.
_________________________________

What is sad, but not particularly ironic is that you think this gobbledygook of illogic and misleading garbage is meaningful

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844662 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/13/2012 12:05 PM
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Chicago is at the end of a major trade corridor largely due to the EERIE CANAL (cue Goofyhoofy).

And those Great Lake thingies along the way.

The north/south split in regard to infrastructure goes back to pre-civil war times.
The northern states invested large amounts in infrastructure and education, the southern states didn't. Unfortunately, the ideology that the rural life/slavery society had spawned and that rejects government infrastructure and education investments persisted through the civil war and right up to the present day, and so the vast majority of the south never caught up.


Which doesn't alter my point one jot, sorry. The cultural divide between the North and South goes back centuries now. No one argues that there should be no infrastructure spending, so you're trying to hoist up a strawman. Sorry, that won't work on me.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844668 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/13/2012 12:13 PM
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Waa, waa, waaa...

Spin it any way you want, the fact remains that the top welfare states are predominantly RED. Yes, there's some blue in there. But the majority of the money goes to the reds. And if you expand it further, the top recipients of federal dollars (beyond just welfare, but including farm subsidies (which is just another form of welfare), defense spending, NASA spending, etc) are also RED.


In liblandia facts are spin.

And of course, since those receiving the most welfare tend to RED, it follows those providing the funds tend to be BLUE.

It's not rocket science.

I find it sadly ironic that the states voting RED because they want government spending cut are the same states that receive most of that spending.


LOL @ that. Sounds to me that it's more of a money where the mouth is issue. But believe what you want.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1844713 of 1966695
Subject: Re: Michigan sends ´shock waves´ acros Date: 12/13/2012 1:52 PM
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I don't believe what I want, I believe what is. Whether I want it or not is irrelevant.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/09/02/red-states-are-the-r...
http://www.cnbc.com/id/31910310/The_Biggest_US_Welfare_State...
http://247wallst.com/2012/08/03/states-that-get-the-most-fed...

There's more if you care to fire-up Google for yourself.

In liblandia facts are spin.

That "facts have a liberal bias" just means that conservatives are wrong most of the time. :-)

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