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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 156927  
Subject: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly final Date: 1/8/2009 8:38 AM
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"Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly final
Beta test version will be available Friday for regular PC users to download "
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28549936/

Any beta takers?
B
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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152880 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/8/2009 8:56 AM
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"Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly final
Beta test version will be available Friday for regular PC users to download "
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28549936/

Any beta takers?
B


I know a Mac guy that is testing W7 beta. I found it remarkable how many instance he gave me where Vista failed to attach peripherals. Apparently, this is a major fix for W7. A little friendlier, doesn't seem to lag from bloat as much. That's his impression so far.

After using my Macbook and his buddy's Macbook Pro, his screwdriver in hand, build PC's himself boss is ordering a new Mac.

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152881 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/8/2009 9:59 AM
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Id have to hear about, amongst other necessary fixing of things that weren't broken or onerous in XP, that the memory footprint was closer to that of XP. There's no good excuse for needing 2GB when large dataset applications aren't specifically in need of it (in real time & physically vs virtualized via disc & swap).
B

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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152882 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/8/2009 2:10 PM
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doesn't seem to lag from bloat as much.

If a fairly early beta of Windows 7 (which most likely hasn't really been optimized yet, since I think that's usually later in the process) doesn't seem to lag as much as Vista does, that shows just how bad Vista must really be. :)

dsbrady

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Author: nativity Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152883 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/8/2009 2:21 PM
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If a fairly early beta of Windows 7 (which most likely hasn't really been optimized yet, since I think that's usually later in the process) doesn't seem to lag as much as Vista does, that shows just how bad Vista must really be. :)

New installations always seem fast, because it's being compared with an installation that's had a year or two to bog down.

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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152884 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/8/2009 2:41 PM
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New installations always seem fast, because it's being compared with an installation that's had a year or two to bog down.

I was assuming that, since it was on a Mac, the Windows partition hadn't been used a whole lot (relatively speaking) and hadn't really bogged down yet.

dsbrady

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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152885 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/8/2009 4:02 PM
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I'm in (e.g. will install the beta on one box at my home). Won't do it on Friday, I'm on an airplane, will need to wait until next week.

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152886 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/8/2009 8:48 PM
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If a fairly early beta of Windows 7 (which most likely hasn't really been optimized yet, since I think that's usually later in the process) doesn't seem to lag as much as Vista does, that shows just how bad Vista must really be. :)

dsbrady,/i>


As much as Oleg must hate to hear it. Vista is so Non-Compelling, as to be utterly distasteful.


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Author: KodiakBear Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152887 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/8/2009 11:07 PM
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"Vista is so Non-Compelling"

Why am I to believe Windows 7 isn't just Vista 3 years down the development road?

Normally a bunch of smart people can do a lot in 3 years,
but these people are working on Windows at Microsoft.

This is exactly the situation which inspired the 'Mythical Man Month'.

KB

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152888 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 9:53 AM
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"I was assuming that, since it was on a Mac, the Windows partition hadn't been used a whole lot (relatively speaking) and hadn't really bogged down yet."

In my most recent experience bringing a new but same enough workstation on lime with XP, to duplicate my older but fairly trusty one of 7 years, I was looking forward to that fresh install non clogged performance.

BUT I was quickly reminded as I installed all my drivers and apps and perhaps worse yet all MS's major service packs and piecemeal updates that in even a short amount of time a system (and a registry) can be weighed down and made uglier than on it's installation birthday. No, I'm not doing anything particularly nasty or demanding or notorious - I was careful to go slow and consider impact. And while It's not as bad as it will be after months & years of usual use & occasional application & driver installs & installs it's already most of the way there towards being a lesser performing sloth. Since I hadn't expected that so soon I thought I'd share that observation.
B

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152889 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 10:03 AM
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"Why am I to believe Windows 7 isn't just Vista 3 years down the development road?"

Becuase we know better - it IS just Vista 3 years down the road. Vista wasn't a few years late it was a half decade late and for the last couple of years a lot of people were suckered or pushed into being alpha testers.

And XP (NT5.1) to a degree was Win2K a few years down that road...except Win2K was worth of it's promotion and upgrade over W98 or NT4.0....and XP like wise (after SP2) respectable and reliable.

It's wait and see on the actual release of Win7 being compelling over XP & Vista. I'm not holding my breath but out of curiosity I look forward to early impressions from beta testers.
B

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152890 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 11:13 AM
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It's wait and see on the actual release of Win7 being compelling over XP & Vista. I'm not holding my breath but out of curiosity I look forward to early impressions from beta testers.
B


All of my company units have W2000 Pro installed. Due to extreme cost, not to mention why bother, they will stay that way until their assigned tasks are done. I do have a new, state of the art rack server now, running? W2K pro. LOL

My Mac has XP pro installed, and that might be it, unless some client needs a different development environment at some point. I'm hoping that my Windows life, at least after this stint is over, is all over as well. I have no use for Windows, and will wait to see if MS ever comes out with an OS that I feel is worthy of buying.

Until that day comes, MS had better do a good job of force feeding the legacy users and bribing the development community.

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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152891 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 1:02 PM
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I see this debate a sort of non-issue, and I stress sort of.

The debate over the evolution of operating systems for consumer and business desktops is pretty much a non-issue these days. Lepoard to Snow Lepoard, Vista to Windows 7.

The reality is there is very little feature/functionality that can be added that doesn't already exist today. Yes there have been big advances in media and gaming in particular, and networking and formats and standards, but this is evolutionary stuff, not revolutionary stuff. I mean come on, people were using QuickTime and WiMP 10 years ago - playing MP3 and editing/viewing pictures on your computer is not revolutionary stuff these days.

The larger debate, which always breaks down into sectarian violence is Mactel vs. Wintel vs. Open Source Tel (e.g. Linux et al) and I'm not even going to wade into that cespool for this discussion.

Windows 7 is based off of Vista? So WHAT. Seriously.

Windows 98 was based off of Windows 95 and Windows 98 SE was based off of Windows 98 an Windows Me was bassed off of Windows 98 SE. If I apply the somewhat warped logic that if product Y is based off of product X it HAS to be better or worse because it is an evolution of that product - that is just plain dumb thinking. I don't think many people would debate that Windows 98 was better than Windows 95, that Windows 98 SE was a darn good operating system, limitations of the Registry not withstanding, and that Windows Me - SUCKED. So wait a minute. Better. Better, Worse. Gee, that theory doesn't hold then.

Windows XP SP2/SP3 is probably the best consumer/commercial desktop OS Microsoft has come out with to date. It was an evolution of W2K which was an evolution of NT4 with some Windows 95 sprinkled in for legacy issues (and that damn Registry).

I have always aaid, with a straight face, Windows XP (the first released edition) is everything that was promised to use in Windows 95. This goes into te whole USB, plug and play, stability (one app goes down the whole OS doesn't go down) ability to run multiple applications, memory management, graphical capability, battery management on laptops, etc. etc.) that Windows 95 was suppose to do - well we finally got.

You don't need to be a marketing genius to figure out that, for now, Microsoft is turning its marketing back on Vista. If they weren't it would be called Vista 2. Vista 10, or something else with Vista in it. For now it is called Windows 7, which isn't to say longer term and up to releas it won't get called something else (and maybe I'll eat crow and it will be called Vista xxx).

I just find it silly to say that something will be crappy because it is based on something crappy. Seriously, in software the universe is filled with endless examples of something crappy out of the gate, turned great through evolution, and likewise something great out of the gate, turned to crap out of evolution. I don't see how anyone at this stage of the game can judge either way, considering a viable released beta isn't even in the hands of a broad audience yet. It is speculative at best, fan boish at worst. Right now given the history of evolution it is a coin toss - it could be Windows 98 SE - it could be Windows Me, it could be Windows 98. Time will tell.

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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152892 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 2:21 PM
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I just find it silly to say that something will be crappy because it is based on something crappy.

It's far easier to create a crappy product that was based on a good one (i.e., ME being based on 98SE in your example) than it is to create a good product based on a crappy one.

dsbrady

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Author: DocHathaway Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152893 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 2:48 PM
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Milligram, I agree completely. Isn't it amusing that OS upgrades where X is based on Y, so X must be crappy is contradictory to application upgrades or game upgrades?

Civilization begat Civ II which begat Civ III which begat CIV IV (and 2 was not that great of a game). Quicken punded out new releases and they weren't given the stigma of coming from a below average application. New releases should be better than the previous release.

Why are applications/games held to a different standard than an OS?

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152894 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 3:16 PM
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"All of my company units have W2000 Pro installed. Due to extreme cost, not to mention why bother, they will stay that way until their assigned tasks are done. I do have a new, state of the art rack server now, running? W2K pro. LOL"

I still use my W2K licenses too...in fact if this afternoon stays this quiet work wise (next Monday will be hell) I'm going to reinstall W2K in a rack unit I plan to dedicate as my digital mulitrack audio workstation. Why? Becuase W2K works and it's not a resource or pig and it's great for semi-deterministic real time apps without having to throw excessive processing and memory at it.

I'm with you Steve - if it ain't broke and it's paid for it's doing it's job.

TGIF,
B

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152895 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 3:24 PM
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"The debate over the evolution of operating systems for consumer and business desktops is pretty much a non-issue these days. Lepoard to Snow Lepoard, Vista to Windows 7." <snip>

Except Lepoard isn't considered a failure either in terms of delivery promptness or reception by users & maintaining or growing market share.....unlike Vista.

<skip to>
"Windows XP SP2/SP3 is probably the best consumer/commercial desktop OS Microsoft has come out with to date. It was an evolution of W2K which was an evolution of NT4 with some Windows 95 sprinkled in for legacy issues (and that damn Registry)."

This is why much IMO rides on Win7 earning some respect (in many regards but generally to be the so called cash cow that give the most milk for the dollar spent).
B

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Author: ScaryDevil Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152896 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 3:33 PM
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New releases should be better than the previous release.

Should be, oh yes, should be. But they aren't always better. And when they are, you need to ask yourself "better for who?" Particularly where Microsoft/Apple/Google are concerned.


Why are applications/games held to a different standard than an OS?

Different standard, or deserved skepticism? (But do you really want to hold Civ IV and Vista 7 to the same standard? Really?)

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152897 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 3:47 PM
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I still use my W2K licenses too...in fact if this afternoon stays this quiet work wise (next Monday will be hell) I'm going to reinstall W2K in a rack unit I plan to dedicate as my digital mulitrack audio workstation. Why? Becuase W2K works and it's not a resource or pig and it's great for semi-deterministic real time apps without having to throw excessive processing and memory at it.

I'm with you Steve - if it ain't broke and it's paid for it's doing it's job.

TGIF,
B


I had to fish around the Intel site to find the p3esky little apps that let W2K understand Enormous SATA hard drives.

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152898 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 3:50 PM
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"Milligram, I agree completely. Isn't it amusing that OS upgrades where X is based on Y, so X must be crappy is contradictory to application upgrades or game upgrades?

Civilization begat Civ II which begat Civ III which begat CIV IV (and 2 was not that great of a game). Quicken punded out new releases and they weren't given the stigma of coming from a below average application. New releases should be better than the previous release."


If that last assertion was true then how do you explain the case in point of Vista?

"Why are applications/games held to a different standard than an OS?"


Well the obvious answer is that an OS is a foundation on which everything else sits so if that's a bad experience you've got a lot more woe than if just one game or app isn't pleasant. OSes are mission critical to the computer before any other casual to critical applications.

But who say they are treated all that different in terms of being important to those who would care for respective reasons?

If I'm a gamer and a game's rev 2's engine was late and sucks and I get burned having bought it, maybe bought it based on a great Rev 1 experience, do you really think I'm going to spend money on rev3 if I know it's built on the same underpinnings as 2 and if I can in any way avoid it or if I find Rev1 to be entertaining enough? Does that not hurt not only the customer but the respective companies who blew it?

Now consider similar situ with the OS on which everything runs.....there has to be a VERY compelling reason to keep upgrading when a MS, or anyone, botches a major release. It's all about expectations and MS knows it blew it with Vista which is why they started mentioning Win7 early and often and why they had to start running Mojave campaigns as soon as that became too hard to ignore the bad PR. Course that the project was scrapped, restarted, and then delivered late and at mounting costs didn't do much good as a starting point either. They lost me when they took all the legacy driver support out that they HAD originally in the beta release. I'm not throwing away or futzing with perfectly working peripherals and tools when XP still does the job for cheap.

I can think of plenty of AV applications and games that suffered similar fates and either killed their parent companies or destroyed trust in future revisions of those products or future revisions. Someone better have been kicking ***'s at MS but then I was hoping that when Xbox problems kept going unaddressed and later cost >$1B in repairs (that reportedly continue today).
B

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152899 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 3:52 PM
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"I had to fish around the Intel site to find the p3esky little apps that let W2K understand Enormous SATA hard drives. "

Yea, that part (48bit LBA addressing) always was a PITA.
B

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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152900 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 4:11 PM
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Civilization begat Civ II which begat Civ III which begat CIV IV (and 2 was not that great of a game).

All 3 of those used different software engines, so they're not "based" on each other, though they share a lot of the same functions. (Besides, of the 3 of those, Civ 3 was the worst, with 2 and 4 being far more "fun". :) )

So, Civ 4 is better than Civ 3, but it's not based on the same engine. They were able to take the good "features" from Civ 3, tweak the bad ones, and build an entirely new game using them.

Bring this to Windows, then it could work if they were to take some of the "good" functionality in Vista [insert joke about "What good functionality?" here] and implement them with an entirely new foundation.

Quicken punded out new releases and they weren't given the stigma of coming from a below average application.

Quicken has added new features in release after release. But, the foundation release wasn't "crappy" to begin with. Yes, it lacked a lot of features we now recognize as necessary in such an application (so that you now think of it as "below average"), but the foundation was good (as far as I know, not having seen the code).

Why are applications/games held to a different standard than an OS?

Shouldn't they be? If a game or application is crappy, then it affects only that game/application. If an OS is crappy, it can affect every part of the computer experience.

dsbrady

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Author: DocHathaway Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152901 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 4:33 PM
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They are both programs - why not hold them the same way? The point I am trying to say is people are more forgiving when a sequel application/game come out than they are for an OS (particularly an MS OS). DISCLAIMER: I admit I am not a fan of MS, but I own shares in MS. That out of the way, there is a lot of anti-MS bias out there where some is warranted and some is not. People have really piled on Vista. Does Vista deserve it? Maybe. But I will tell you that Vista has been running fine on my computer (no crashes at all) for over a year. I have had no problems other than getting some of my older applications and games to successfully install. I am basically saying MS is held to a different standard to any other OS, application, or game maker.

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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152902 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 5:19 PM
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They are both programs - why not hold them the same way?

Because, again . . . . if a game or application is "crappy" then it's generally a minor annoyance and doesn't affect the entire computing experience (granted, if it's an application your job depends on, it's a bit more than a minor annoyance) and you relatively easily replace it or forget about using the program. If it's an OS, it affects your ENTIRE computing experience, and it's unlikely you can just use something else without great expense (in cost, time, or both).

dsbrady

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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152903 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 7:04 PM
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I have mixed feelings on Vista. My latest and greatest work computer runs Vista (Dell XPS M1530) and I have to say, I love it. But it has plenty of oompf from the processor, to the memory, to the video solution to deal with the bloat.

I have a desktop at home I put Vista on. I put Vista on it almost day/date of release and it was a nightmare. I went back to XP SP2. I tried again about 6 to 9 months later and it was smooth. My big issue at my first attempt was a complete lack of drivers.

I have a third computer that I have setup as dual boot, XP SP3 and Windows Vista. This machine continues to be problematic and I have the least happy experience with. It won't update to SP1, some issue with a driver I'm told that I really don't care to waste cycles exploring. I went through a horribe period where patch Tuesday meant the black screen of death (BSOD) waiting for me on Wednesday and having to restore files to get my computer to run again, which the folks at Microsoft, in an attempt to protect me from myself, have not made easy to do anymore (versus XP or earlier versions of other OS).

So if my one experience with Vista was my work laptop, I'd be a very happy individual. If it was one of the desktops, I'd have mixed feelings but feel after initial pain, it is a good OS. On the laptop I put it on, a M170 I speced out to run Vista from the world go when I bought it 2-1/2 years ago - I'd be a VERY unhappy camper (well I did skimp on memory going with 1 Gig, but the won't upgrade to SP1 is a pain in the butt).

Anyway - that's my view.

Milligram46
Running Vista and XP SP3, plan to install the Windows 7 Beta 1 on a box for giggles, but not until next week or the week after

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Author: TheCrusader Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152904 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 9:54 PM
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The world seems a buzz with positive comments about Windows 7, "vista done right" and all that sort of things.

There are some great Media Center improvements in it, including native DivX support, and positive UI refresh.

In my view this will be released by July this year at the latest.

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Author: DocHathaway Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152905 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/9/2009 11:40 PM
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"Because, again . . . . if a game or application is "crappy" then it's generally a minor annoyance and doesn't affect the entire computing experience "

But people are making assumptions about MS 7 that they don't make after a crappy application or game.It is the assumptions that I have the problem with. Remember, I hate MS products, and if I could get a Mac with HDMI and Blu Ray, I would buy a Mac (and maybe I wouldn't be a MS shareholder). But I really believe there is a double standard when it comes to an OS vs. applications/games.

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Author: TheCrusader Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152906 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/10/2009 3:27 AM
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I hate MS products, and if I could get a Mac with HDMI and Blu Ray

Hatred such a strong word isn't it?

Plenty of people here can tell you how to set up a 286 running Linux thats better than my Windows system

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152907 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/10/2009 9:15 AM
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"The world seems a buzz with positive comments about Windows 7, "vista done right" and all that sort of things."

Tt's abuzz with that eh? Well you kinda always say that sort of thing ;-) and since you tend to hear/report only the good when it come from MS products and you're quoting someone (or the world?) so you got any good links to all this positive buzz?

After all it should be easy to link us up to them. Credible reviews of actual testing & real use preferred over press release regurgitations of goals...I mean I'd love to hear they actually did get it all (most) right this time but I'd like to see some specifics from a critical reviewer rather than take the word of those who are arguably hardcore fans and who generally always say it's all good.

FWIW Cnet, who's an ok starting point for new tech news IMO, is more abuzz about CES and I've yet to find a Win7 reporting there that claiming it "Vista done right" or any such judgements based on use.
I will say they don't seem pessimistic about the goals or changes by MS (me too from what I've read) but then they probably are playing with preconfig'ed systems or limited scope prereleases (alpha) and not dealing with real world user install procedures & use. As I've mentioned before it's what MS changed or didn't fix in the release after teasing us in beta that lost me wrt Vista.

The Cnet report on the beta release & MS's goals:
http://news.cnet.com/windows-7-a-better-vista/?tag=rtcol;txt...
Screenshots:
http://news.cnet.com/2300-1016_3-6247282-4.html?tag=mncol

Well, I did more digging just before posting and while waiting for the coffee to brew...anyway I found another Aussie op-ed (she likes it):
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10134184-92.html?tag=txt
Though cautions with "I want to stress that we didn't test the Windows 7 beta exhaustively, and business users will need to closely examine deployment software and how the operating system integrates into their existing environments, as well as its ability to work well with third-party software. For example, we couldn't get Adobe Systems' Creative Suite 3 to install on Windows 7 beta; the installer told us we needed to quit Internet Explorer first."

Yea, we heard that kind of installation cautions with Vista (something was keeping Oleg busy pre & post deployment - who knows<shrug>). The rest sound very positive - time will tell how right this is for those of us who use OSes as a means to get things done rather than just fawn over them even when they stand in the way of work. I like hearing the analogies drawn to what we like about XP (though I differ with her op-ed on XP's stability - XP NEVER crashes on my 24/7 eng workstations or AV systems all with gobs of peripherals etc but then neither did(does) W2K).
Cheers,
B

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152908 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/10/2009 9:43 AM
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"Remember, I hate MS products, and if I could get a Mac with HDMI and Blu Ray, I would buy a Mac (and maybe I wouldn't be a MS shareholder)."

Huh? What does one have to do with....nver mind.
FWIW I don't "hate MS products" - I love XP and what it's allowed me to do (and BR consoles are cheap now for those who care) and I still find Office97 adequate for my work...and Outlook2003 was a good bang for buck for me. Lots of good stuff over the years for certain....but I'm not sure Vista qualifies for either users OR for investors. But being a MS shareholder is a whole nother pathology in need of it's own therapy (I've been clean since 99 ;-)

"But I really believe there is a double standard when it comes to an OS vs. applications/games. "

And there should be a different standard because these things are not the same despite how much you insist they are. As an autophile or objective shopper you wouldn't hold a car chassis platform to the same standard as the peripheral accessories or seats you're going to put it it when it's reconfigured the next time as a sedan, crossover, or perhaps AWD SUV. Why? Because some things are changed and improved easily and chassis/platform on which they're built not so much. When you get burned with a lemon you walk away from the next time or at the least become a show me cynic. Vista was a truck frame on a sedan in a gas crisis (LOL....sorry Scott, it's been so long since either of us has pushed the car analogies).

Lets not pretend this cynicism and wait & see hasn't been earned by MS themselves. Don't blame the users when MS boasted the last time this was a rip up and redo over XP (and over the 1st design round of Vista) that yielded a product that was as a base product a resource hog, by late decision didn't support a lot of older hardware (or not as well as the beta lead us to believe), and effectively admitted to be a failure by MS's own sporadic sales plans and marketing behavior. It wasn't exactly irrational that corporations & users insisted on being able to buy XP and MS granting later & later dates for the cutoffs - the supposed value added's of Vista were negated by the imposed resource and compatibility requirements & sorting.

So, Doc I think rather than forcing this to same standards as low consequence games etc we're all really just playing wait & see because this is so much more important than games or picking a browser - it's what more defines MS's market share than anything else and that's a big deal.
B

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152909 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/10/2009 11:07 AM
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The world seems a buzz with positive comments about Windows 7, "vista done right" and all that sort of things.

There are some great Media Center improvements in it, including native DivX support, and positive UI refresh.

In my view this will be released by July this year at the latest.


Both you and Steve Ballmer seem to have credibility issues. When released, Vista was touted as Fantastic. Users experiencing problems or even Hatred, were told they did it wrong, inadequate hardware, whatever. It continued to suck, then it was the Media's fault. Ballmer touted the acceptance as HUGE, and that it was a great product.

Late in the run, we have Microsoft advertising their fake Vista ad. Now we have MS themselves touting Windows 7 as better, the way we intended Vista to be. The sad truth is this. Ballmer lied, businesses hated it, many consumers became so frustrated it prompted tens of millions in ads to quell the foul odor.

Believe it or not you guys, we actually do pay more attention to the products than crappy ads, or lies from fanboys and executives.

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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152910 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/10/2009 2:12 PM
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But people are making assumptions about MS 7 that they don't make after a crappy application or game.

Sure they do. If you played a game with a really engine and learned either a sequel or a game based on the same engine was coming out, wouldn't your assumption be that it, too, was probably going to be crappy?

Similarly, given how much I dislike Office 2007, when I hear a new version is going to come out and it's based on the same idea (the ribbon, for example), my assumption will be that the new version will also be crappy.

Bad reputations for ANY product line are hard to get over. Going with the car analogy, in the early 90s, Hyundai cars were very poor quality (which is one of the reasons they had the first 10 year/100,000 mile warranty). Now, some of their cars rank up their with Toyota and Hyundai. But, I'd still be wary of buying one, because of their past reputation.

dsbrady

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152912 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/10/2009 3:31 PM
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"Now, some of their cars rank up their with Toyota and Hyundai. But, I'd still be wary of buying one, because of their past reputation."

And Toyota made it a little easier to catch up by letting their quality/reputation slip a little.

Glad we got that our of our systems ;-)
B

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152914 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/10/2009 7:43 PM
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And Toyota made it a little easier to catch up by letting their quality/reputation slip a little.

Glad we got that our of our systems ;-)
B


I know they had a couple of months worth of new six speed tranny problems, but that pales in comparison to 20 years of front end and tranny problems in the Caravans. GF's brother just threw a cool $3,000 in his. Not uncommon, in that Dodge family, all four have spent at least that over five years.

I just paid $800 for a full brake job with calipers that were salted out. 131,000 and still running great. My brother does warranty work for GM, Ford and Toyota as a rep. Ford's done real well, GM not too bad, Toyota is boring except for the transmission issues on the 6 cylinders, which lasted briefly. I did just get a recall on my driver's side window.

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152915 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/10/2009 9:02 PM
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OT:
"I know they had a couple of months worth of new six speed tranny problems, but that pales in comparison to" <snip>

I dunno about that specific issue (I assume you meant transmissions not trans...well ;-) but it sounds like one of many problems in recent years. Not just anecdotes but enough to effect their JD Power rating & Consumer reports recommendations in a negative way. Drive train through fit & finish issues. Here's a few of many articles (this 1st one in 07 but there were many others before & after - i stuck to business new related report rather than just armature bloga).

"Toyota's quality slips, again" (2007)
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2007/10/...

"A dent in Toyota quality?
Growing problem of recalls sullies image (2006)"
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/08/04/business/recall.php

"Toyota blames rapid growth for quality problems" (2008)
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/13/business/toyota.php

And so on...been covered on NPR too (and I don't just mean on click & clack's show). <shrug> We're waaay OT now though perhaps like with MS we're seeing a lesson in the sloppiness likely when being bigger/biggest players in a market....even the Japanese (I bet the Germans would have QA trouble too if trying to play in the top 3 Intl. volume manufacturer spots and in similar product price brackets).
B

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Author: HMALETTER Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152916 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/10/2009 11:10 PM
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I'm aware of the issues and the recalls. But this is something I never heard from our Domestic Big Three over the years.

""The quality issue is a big concern. They're embarrassed about it," said the executive, who insisted on anonymity because the meeting was private. He added, "You think about Toyota, and quality is in our DNA. We are concerned about looking like the rest of the pack. The market is forgiving because of our long reputation, but how long will they be forgiving?""

Maybe it won't be enough, but humble attitudes are often times what it takes. I replaced my brake pads circa 89,000 miles, which is on par with my last three T's. Should they try to lower costs by using some of the cheaper pads and rotors some carmakers due, then I'll know I need to pay more attention. I'm not brand loyal to crap, so I'll move on to whatever is worthy.

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152917 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/11/2009 8:34 AM
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"I'm aware of the issues and the recalls. But this is something I never heard from our Domestic Big Three over the years."

Perhaps and perhaps not but, and I only really follow Ford, no reports of humility aside Ford has acted, which is what really matters, and as a result has done so effectively to catch up an even surpass on some quality measures (if we're to believe JDP, CR, and even harsher critics). Whether consumers will be objective is obviously another struggle.

"Maybe it won't be enough, but humble attitudes are often times what it takes. I replaced my brake pads circa 89,000 miles, which is on par with my last three T's. Should they try to lower costs by using some of the cheaper pads and rotors some carmakers due, then I'll know I need to pay more attention. I'm not brand loyal to crap, so I'll move on to whatever is worthy. "

I'm not trying to convince you to switch brands - I was just acknowledging the reports that quality wrt to Toyota is no longer to be assumed than it should be with a Ford or anyone else who should have to earn a reputation. Gotta take it per vehicle per year.

FWIW (anecdotes) I have the same good experiences so far and requirement for quality else I'll shop elsewhere rules as well...though in my case I'm getting great results from my anything but pampered or garaged Fords (I still have my orig ordered 89 Stang and a as of this week 12 year ole AWD SUV - bang for buck I couldn't be happier and like with OSes if it ain't broke and does the job...).

Stay warm (I gotta go out & snow blow now - ob boy),
B

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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152918 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/11/2009 11:36 AM
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And Toyota made it a little easier to catch up by letting their quality/reputation slip a little.

If you dive into Toyota's data and actions since 2005 it actually is a pretty lousy track record both on product development, product mix, product launch, new product engineering, and manufacturing quality. They've had more strikes, errors, and fouls than hits and no home runs. You can't call the Prius more than a single seeing how they lose money on every single one they sell - other than the fact it props up the illusion that they are green eco-friendly company, which couldn't be further from the truth.

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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152919 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/11/2009 11:40 AM
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Toyota doesn't build crap, I don't think anyone has said that.

What they do build is very, VERY, boring toasters on wheels with soft brakes, soft suspensions, numb steerings, and ehem, fluid acceleration.

Honestly, given quality to quality and size to size, I don't know why anyone would buy a Toyota Corolla over the equivalent Honda Civic or Mazda 3. The Honda is certainly reliable and a lot more fun to drive. The Mazda 3 takes a slight tick down on quality, but still very reliable, and even more fun to drive, unless you step up to the Si Civic, but that isn't a fair comparo then to the Corolla which doesn't offer an engine that comes close.

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Author: ScaryDevil Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152920 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/12/2009 2:21 PM
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They are both programs - why not hold them the same way?

A cocker spaniel and a crocodile are both animals, but I'd only consider keeping one of them as a pet.

-SD

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Author: ScaryDevil Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152921 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/12/2009 2:26 PM
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But I really believe there is a double standard when it comes to an OS vs. applications/games.

Not a "double standard", just "two standards".

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Author: ScaryDevil Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152922 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/12/2009 2:36 PM
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"When released, Vista was touted as Fantastic."

It was touted as fantastic for years preceding the release. Microsoft seem not to be making that mistake this time, which bodes, if not well, at least better, for Vista 7.

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Author: dsbrady Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152923 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/12/2009 2:40 PM
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A cocker spaniel and a crocodile are both animals, but I'd only consider keeping one of them as a pet.

Where would you keep the crocodile? :)

dsbrady

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152924 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/12/2009 6:40 PM
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"Where would you keep the crocodile? :)"

D) Pants!

;-)
B

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Author: DocHathaway Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152925 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/13/2009 3:11 PM
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They are both programs - why not hold them the same way?

A cocker spaniel and a crocodile are both animals, but I'd only consider keeping one of them as a pet.

I see the analogy that a Dobermann and a miniature poodle should be held to the same standard - they don't bite, should be housetrained, not jump on people, etc. They obviously are used around the house for different puposes (like a guard dog for protection vs. a little lap dog). That is how I see OS/Apps/Games. They may have different purposes, but they are all dogs.

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Author: DocHathaway Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152926 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/13/2009 3:13 PM
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A cocker spaniel and a crocodile are both animals, but I'd only consider keeping one of them as a pet.

Where would you keep the crocodile? :)


Considering there what a whole OT thread on cars, I have a one for this. I lived in a house some 30+ years ago in New Haven, CT, that had a Crocodile pond where the previous owner had a croc as a pet. It was way in the back yard.

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Author: ScaryDevil Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152927 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/13/2009 3:46 PM
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I see the analogy that a Dobermann and a miniature poodle should be held to the same standard - they don't bite, should be housetrained, not jump on people, etc. They obviously are used around the house for different puposes (like a guard dog for protection vs. a little lap dog). That is how I see OS/Apps/Games. They may have different purposes, but they are all dogs.

No, they aren't all just dogs. Paris Hilton's "Tinkerbell" isn't held to the same standard as any working dog, be it seeing-eye, K-9, bomb-drug-cancer-or-seizure-sniffing, military, etc. If Tinkie tinkles in the car, Paris can just buy a new Rolls. If a working dog has a bad day, people can die.

Likewise, lumping games and OS's together as "just programs" is simplistic, and ignores the fact that "just programs" are in everything from greeting cards to ballistic-missile submarines.

I can kind of see why a casual computer user may be confused by the distinction between a mass-market PC OS, like Windows or Mac OS, and a game: the marketing departments of the companies responsible for those OS's have done a lot to blur the line between them.

Nevertheless, look beneath Solitaire and vast crapware infesting your desktop, and you'll notice a critical bit of modern civilization's infrastructure. If it doesn't run right, you can lose your identity to a crook, and have your credit ruined. That puts it in a category different from an entertainment end-product.

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152928 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/13/2009 6:28 PM
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Well stated - Devil's in the details ;-)
B

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Author: DocHathaway Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152929 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/13/2009 10:32 PM
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I am definitely not even close to being a casual computer user, tho thanks for the assumption! No one ever thought I was a newbie at computer software in many decades, so I will take that as a compliment. (I wrote my first solitaire program in high school.) Thank you. That made my day.

Software is computer code that follow a set of instructions. Those instructions can be to add 1 plus 1, or targeting information for ICBMs. Code should always be written well and effeciently, no matter what it is supposed to do. (Much like how dogs should act, whether they are working dogs, toy dogs, or mutts. Their breeding - coding - dictate their purpose, but they all should behave well.)

I expect my software to work - OS, application, or game. I hold all code to the same standard. I guess I am alone in this, and that is fine. This certainly isn't the first time I have had a differing opinion, even on these Fool Boards!

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Author: nativity Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152931 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/14/2009 6:54 AM
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Software is computer code that follow a set of instructions. Those instructions can be to add 1 plus 1, or targeting information for ICBMs. Code should always be written well and effeciently, no matter what it is supposed to do. (Much like how dogs should act, whether they are working dogs, toy dogs, or mutts. Their breeding - coding - dictate their purpose, but they all should behave well.)

That was somewhat like a kindergarten teacher's explanation of quantum physics.

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Author: DocHathaway Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152934 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/14/2009 11:25 AM
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Now if you had said Einstgein's Theory of Special Relativity, then I would have thought you have heard me speak previously. Scary. Yes, I was trying to boil it down into its simplest explanation.

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Author: ScaryDevil Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152935 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/14/2009 12:29 PM
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I am definitely not even close to being a casual computer user, tho thanks for the assumption!

Not to un-make your day, but I didn't assume, and tried not to write anything about you. I'm only interested in unpacking your idea of holding all programs to the same standard.

Now, I'm not sure whether that same standard is impossibly idealistic ("[c]ode should always be written well and effeciently"), or just the least common denominator (if it runs, ship it).

I read your earlier post as being surprised that people held Microsoft Windows to a different standard than they did Quicken or Civ IV. Maybe I did make one faulty assumption after all: that your surprise was because people were too critical of Microsoft. Instead, maybe you think people are not critical enough of Quicken and Civ IV.

But it's difficult to know where you really stand, because you've conflated related-but-different things: products, programs, and code. And you've glossed over the fact that these things all have at least one context. Imagine beautifully written, efficient--whatever that means--code that, when compiled into a program, then packaged-marketed-and-sold as a product, and finally run by the end-user, fails to do what that end-user needs it to do.

Is the end user too critical of the product? Not critical enough? Or simply wrong in his or her expectation of the product, maybe due to the way it was marketed?

-SD

(The code was awesome, by the way; just ask the programmer.)

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152936 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/14/2009 3:09 PM
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"Software is computer code that follow a set of instructions. Those instructions can be to add 1 plus 1, or targeting information for ICBMs. Code should always be written well and efficiently, no matter what it is supposed to do. (Much like how dogs should act, whether they are working dogs, toy dogs, or mutts. Their breeding - coding - dictate their purpose, but they all should behave well.)"

What about the real world? While it would be nice if all things were equal they're not. Ships are just metal wood fibers & resins. If a ships bulkheads aren't designed sealed is that Titanic mistake only as important as getting the deck chairs right? C'mon.

"I expect my software to work - OS, application, or game. I hold all code to the same standard."

Yea, we got that presumptive part and it's still not realistic nor practiced. Most of us hold the mission critical parts to respective higher standards and have to. Systems have priorities and compromises and always will - you better hope when it matters we're not spending as much on verifying frivols as on safety elements.

So, what kind of software do you design/write that has no gradients of priority or functionality importance mandated by specifications? Even in games the game engine is more important than any one texture or element. Where is this arena in which all things assumed to be without flaws and of blindly assumed equal importance?

One last time (for beating dead horses sake):
If an OS as prolific as Windows has flaws that erupt and takes systems down or hinders THEN many of us would be out of business or impeded for that time - PERIOD - but if Win Solitare is flawed...well probably the national GDP goes up as people get back to work (or they find another way to waste company time & money ;-). But the interesting thing is that Win Solitare does work well - if only the rest of the functions delivered with the OS were as equal to or as assured as that.

Setting such priorities and qualifiers isn't unique to software and neither is holding back on the benefit of doubt when a big company claims again that their next greatest thing is better than the last - ESPECIALLY when it's based on the last poor showing. Having said all this so far Win7 reviews of changes/improvements look optimistic ... but again some thought that of Vista betas too. Trust, like caution, is earned over time & experience.
B

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Author: DocHathaway Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152939 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/15/2009 10:33 AM
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Yes, I think we are getting somewhere, SD. :-) I see the scale of standards weighed all the way down when it comes to anything Microsoft produces, though specifically OS, Explorer, and Office Suite. On the other end, with no standards, are other non-MS products (Symantec, EA, etc.). I think this scale is tipped too heavily against MS. I do think people should be more critical of non-MS products. I do think people are too critical of MS.

Code should be written well, packaged into a software product. Philipo has tried to make a case (and maybe successfully to some people, but I still don't buy into it) that smaller, more insignificate code shouldn't, in the real world, be held to the same standard. Remember, though, that we lost a Mars lander mission beause one seemingly insignificant piece of code - the conversion program, converting meters to yards, kilometers to miles, etc., did not work (well, wasn't there).

To me, people accept bugs in their applications and games, but lash out excessively at MS for even the simplest failure. I am not saying people should not be furious when their computer blue screens every day (though not all blue screens are the OS fault). But I have known (somewhat IT-saavy) people to lash out at MS because their computer didn't shut down gracefully. The problem was actually with the HP Update application (the auto updater for printer drivers never closed out of the program), but these people blamed MS. Once they found out it was not MS but HP, then they were no longer furious, and accepted the non-graceful shutdown. To me this is wrong on so many levels.

That is what I mean - all code should be written well, compiled into a program effeciently, and packaged correctly. That is why I say it doesn't matter what the code/software is for - it should all be held to the same standard. People should be more upset at other applications and less upset with MS. I am not an optimist at heart - I know that the scale will never be equal, but it should not be completely weighed down by MS.

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Author: Philipo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 152940 of 156927
Subject: Re: Microsoft's Ballmer: Windows 7 is nearly fin Date: 1/15/2009 5:17 PM
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"Code should be written well, packaged into a software product. Philipo has tried to make a case (and maybe successfully to some people, but I still don't buy into it) that smaller, more insignificate code shouldn't, in the real world, be held to the same standard."

Don't parse my words - the standard of worth should meet the importance of the elements being considered (and it's a fact those are not all equal....to even you who won't admit it).

"Remember, though, that we lost a Mars lander mission beause one seemingly insignificant piece of code - the conversion program, converting meters to yards, kilometers to miles, etc., did not work (well, wasn't there). "
<snip>

LOL...that's NOT in any way a seemingly "insignificant piece of code" by very definition. It was quite obviously mission critical which is exactly what priorities for quality checks I argued deserves more attention. We're talking a long distance ballistics program and you're gonna pretend getting distance units of measure was something I 'd argue as insignificant? That it was fouled up doesn't prove your point at all - It's case in point example of mine that the stuff that takes us down IS more important than less important issues (for a PC that starts with the OS).

Jack Ganssle lectures often (and appears on the History Channel's "Engineering Disasters" show) to emphasis that very sobering point and that example of the Mars mission failure specifically is one that comes up there and in my circles as centerpiece of poorly managed SQA of critical components. FWIW: http://www.ganssle.com/articles/Firmwaredisasters2.htm

"To me, people accept bugs in their applications and games, but lash out excessively at MS for even the simplest failure. I am not saying people should not be furious when their computer blue screens every day (though not all blue screens are the OS fault). But I have known (somewhat IT-saavy) people to lash out at MS because their computer didn't shut down gracefully. The problem was actually with the HP Update application (the auto updater for printer drivers never closed out of the program), but these people blamed MS. Once they found out it was not MS but HP, then they were no longer furious, and accepted the non-graceful shutdown. To me this is wrong on so many levels."

Those are just anecdotes & I'm not sure that MS is as set up for hyper criticism, as you argue, as much as it is often given a free pass (and decades now of market share with products that could & should have been better). For every one guy who supposedly unfairly rants as an ABMer there's hundreds satisfied and YET hundreds others silently frustrated at problems that have yet to be addressed. Again, reputation is earned and right now, in terms of Win OSes, XP is preferred by some for very real reasons and Vista has been passed on or reverted to XP from by some. Some look forward to Win7 and it's not because they're so satisfied with Vista. Look no further than MS for how we should view Vista. The reputation for Win7 will likewise be won or lost in the trenches - any mention that it's based on Vista best be followed quickly with qualifiers of how it's better in spite of that.


"That is what I mean - all code should be written well, compiled into a program effeciently, and packaged correctly. That is why I say it doesn't matter what the code/software is for - it should all be held to the same standard."


Wanting it all to be equal and well done does not make it so. In the real world of engineering and product development we have limited resources and schedules that push things out the door too often half baked. So given those realities and constraints the question a reasonable person has to ask is where do you want them (us) spending the most time? The flight controls or the elevator music?

Again, MS's has HUGE resources and it's products reputation is earned for better and worse - if OSes are toughly criticized then they better either take the time to improve them or find another cash cow to milk.
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